Extraordinary Senses and Where to Store Them

[Koloss17 She/They]

So it is by now no secret that I am a bit of an F-Tin addict. I’ve made probably too many posts about it, and have overthought it’s capabilities about five too many times. 
 

How much could one more hurt?

 

Brandon Sanderson has a whole lot of different magic systems in the Cosmere, and a surprising amount have to do with senses in some form. Knowing this, I want to try to locate all of the possible supernatural senses that could be stored, as well as the possible preexisting senses that could be supernaturally given a boost through magical assistance. I’ll be going by planet, and seeing what is possible in each one.

 

 

Scadrial

Ah, home sweet home. I believe I’ve made a thread on this already, so I’ll try to keep it relatively brief.

We have Allomantic steel and iron, where you could store that juicy 360 degree vision with Investiture detection abilities, which could be quite nice. You wouldn’t be able to affect any metals, but it would still be cool. I also doubt you could separate the metal detection from the 360 degree vision, but it would be cool if you could.

Allomantic bronze works in much the same way, but I do wonder: would you be able to store sensing of Allomantic Investiture and something like sensing Feruchemantic investiture? The Sandlord has said that they are detected differently, but depending on how they are detected differently, maybe they could be separate senses? It’s a long shot, but I’ll take what I can get.

Allomantic gold, electrum, and Atium Prime are odd ones. They give their own sense, yes, but they also do something else. Either tapping into Identity or Fortune, they end up messing with the Spiritual Realm. So I feel like they could be stored, but I doubt all of it could be stored. Gold Shadows could store the additional human+ maybe seeing out of their eyes as well, but with Atium and Electrum, if you aren’t storing Fortune, would storing the shadow do anything?

Moving on from that weirdness, we have Allomantic tin and pewter. Neither give new sense, but they enhance preexisting ones. Tin enhances, well, all of em, and pewter enhances your sense of balance to match the increase in strength. Both can certainly be useful, and with A-Tin, you could compound, which would be pretty crazy.

Now I come to a recent addition that I’m trying out. What of Koloss Sense? Powerful Soothers/Rioters have the ability to sense the koloss, and likely other Hemalurgic constructs they control, from a distance. Now, it’s been a while since I’ve read the original trilogy, and Coppermind is being not so accommodating, but I believe that they were able to detect the emotional state of the koloss, as well as the position that they were at. While one could argue that this is more of a telepathic link of sorts than it’s own sense, I would argue that it is a distinct way of taking in information about your surroundings, so therefore is a sense of sorts.  This is a bit of a reach, but I have high hopes.

Speaking of Hemalurgy, let’s talk about it. H-Tin steals senses, so that will certainly help give extra senses. Although, I would argue that, if you find the right bind points, you could steal an animal’s senses, such as the ability to see UV light, or infrared Vision. Maybe you could steal the enhanced night vision of an owl for example, but I’m not too sure if you could store that. Still, it would be quite interesting to see (pun intended).

I’ll briefly go over some potential with Feruchemy, but there isn’t that much that I can see. Perhaps F-pewter would adjust proprioception, but I doubt it would really increase it. Past that, there really isn’t much that I can see that would add or increase senses.

 

Nalthis:

Nalthis, sweet Nalthis. Land of color and many different shenanigans.

Let’s get the most obvious one out of the way. Lifesense. It’s what allows Nalthinians to have a faint idea about living beings around them, and with more breaths, that can be perfected. However, with the power of F-Tin, it can go even further! Storability is quite nice, and very possible.

Now, there’s been controversy over the store-ability of perfect pitch and perfect color recognition. It’s an augmentation to a preexisting sense, but it doesn’t really seem different enough to be stored separately. But I feel like it has to do something for F-tin, right? I don’t know, maybe it’s me getting my hopes up, but I feel like there has to be some interaction.

 

Sel: 

I don’t think there’s anything in Sel that could directly help, past maybe soulstamping, but at the same time we really don’t know much about the magic systems there.

 

Threnody and Taldain

I’m lumping these together, as we really don’t know much about either magic system. Maybe there’s something that could help Worldhopping Windwhisperers, but we just don’t know at the moment.

 

First of The Sun

Now we don’t know a lot about this funky little planet, but from what we have right now, we know that there is at least one aviar that can give you a new sense of sorts. I would interpret Sak’s visions as similar to electrum shadows in their storability. 
 

Roshar

I’ve been avoiding this one, for a few reasons, but mostly due to the fact that I really don’t know that much about Roshar’s intricacies, and the lack of full exploration of all of the magic systems in the books certainly isn’t helping. But I’ll give it a try.

 

The surge of gravitation theoretically gives at the very least a more honed sense of gravitational direction, from flying/falling about everywhere. Does it actually supernaturally increase that sense? Probably not, but it will at least improve it through use.

The surge of transportation allows peeking into the Cognitive by Truthwatchers, but I doubt that’s really it’s own sense. I think it’s very likely that the Purelake spren sight works in much the same way, so I won’t be counting those.

I also don’t think Dalinar or even Renarin’s visions really count, as they seem to be more of a cognitive thing playing with preexisting senses than a unique sense. But again, a more SA-nerdy fando might be able to give more insight.

Now, Old Magic is a bit of a cheat, as you can get any extra sense or augmentation of senses, but it is also a bit of a bait, as unless you are really close with Cultivation, you don’t really get to choose what you get. We don’t really know how Old Magic works, but however it works, Cultivation calls the shots.

Anyway, that’s all I can think of for Stormlight’s magic systems. There are many wild things you can do with em, but gaining new senses does not seem to be one of them.

 

That just about wraps this megatheory up! If you have any new points to make, or if you contest some points that I have made, feel free to contribute! I am far from an expert in the Cosmere, just an F-Tin addict.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Don't forget about Nalthis's inested object detection

[Koloss17 She/They]

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Don't forget about Nalthis's inested object detection

Aw man, did I already miss something important?

What do you mean by this?

[Argenti he/him]

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Aw man, did I already miss something important?

What do you mean by this?

When awakened objects "see" they see through something similar to steelsight, and you could probably do some crazy  command to make it grant you that. Here's longer explanation 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Argenti
Added link

[Koloss17 She/They]

4 hours ago, Argenti said:

When awakened objects "see" they see through something similar to steelsight, and you could probably do some crazy  command to make it grant you that. Here's longer explanation 

 

Oh cool! That makes sense. And yeah, it feels like that’s somehow obtainable.

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Ah, home sweet home. I believe I’ve made a thread on this already, so I’ll try to keep it relatively brief.

We have Allomantic steel and iron, where you could store that juicy 360 degree vision with Investiture detection abilities, which could be quite nice. You wouldn’t be able to affect any metals, but it would still be cool. I also doubt you could separate the metal detection from the 360 degree vision, but it would be cool if you could.

Two notes: One, Investiture detection works only on metallic objects, to see Investiture you would require quite powerful Steelsight (you probably could get that from F-Tin, but you would burn out your stores very fast.)
Two: You get also a nice weakness in form of metallic dust basically blinding this sense.

Quote

Allomantic bronze works in much the same way, but I do wonder: would you be able to store sensing of Allomantic Investiture and something like sensing Feruchemantic investiture? The Sandlord has said that they are detected differently, but depending on how they are detected differently, maybe they could be separate senses? It’s a long shot, but I’ll take what I can get.

Allomantic Bronze detects kinetic Investiture, that is the sense. It detects both Allomancy and Feruchemy exactly the same way, they just 'sound' different.
So most likely they are not separate senses.

Quote

Moving on from that weirdness, we have Allomantic tin and pewter. Neither give new sense, but they enhance preexisting ones. Tin enhances, well, all of em, and pewter enhances your sense of balance to match the increase in strength. Both can certainly be useful, and with A-Tin, you could compound, which would be pretty crazy.

Nice catch on improved proprioception from A-pewter., never though of that.

Quote

Now I come to a recent addition that I’m trying out. What of Koloss Sense? Powerful Soothers/Rioters have the ability to sense the koloss, and likely other Hemalurgic constructs they control, from a distance. Now, it’s been a while since I’ve read the original trilogy, and Coppermind is being not so accommodating, but I believe that they were able to detect the emotional state of the koloss, as well as the position that they were at. While one could argue that this is more of a telepathic link of sorts than it’s own sense, I would argue that it is a distinct way of taking in information about your surroundings, so therefore is a sense of sorts.  This is a bit of a reach, but I have high hopes.

Don't think that would count as sense. The way they can feel them is basically the same way they give them orders, through strong Connection.
No Connection, no sensing, and with F-Tin you could not store that Connection.

Quote

Speaking of Hemalurgy, let’s talk about it. H-Tin steals senses, so that will certainly help give extra senses. Although, I would argue that, if you find the right bind points, you could steal an animal’s senses, such as the ability to see UV light, or infrared Vision. Maybe you could steal the enhanced night vision of an owl for example, but I’m not too sure if you could store that. Still, it would be quite interesting to see (pun intended).

You surely could spike yourself with animal sense, but you most likely would end up mutating into something like the Chimeras from Era 2. Those are strongly hinted at to be created via spiking animal attributes into human.
So you would get UV/IR vision, at the low cost of your sanity.

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

 

You surely could spike yourself with animal sense, but you most likely would end up mutating into something like the Chimeras from Era 2. Those are strongly hinted at to be created via spiking animal attributes into human.
So you would get UV/IR vision, at the low cost of your sanity.

Your body would likely warp to be able to use it, ex wolf eyes, but with the right binding and intent, you could probably make minor changes.

[therunner he/him]

19 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Your body would likely warp to be able to use it, ex wolf eyes, but with the right binding and intent, you could probably make minor changes.

Binding point won't help too much, that primarily determines what you get (i.e. you need to implant proper metal in proper place).
Intent could help a bit, however I doubt it would save you. It is required to perform magic, but does not necessarily change the effects unless that is nature of the Invested Art (like in Awakening). In Hemalurgy the effects are primarily determined by combination of metal, donor spiking location, and recepient bind point, that is what give effect. Intent is merely required to 'activate' the Invested art.

Look at known examples of humans spiked with attributes and not powers:

Koloss have humans strength spiked into them, and the changes to their souls are not too drastic (their Cognitive Aspects basically fully revert after death), and yet they are barely sapient monstrosities. And those are spikes made out of humans! If it was easy to make them even just a tiny bit smarter, it would make sense to do it

The second example are chimeras, and those even with single spike are horribly mutated.

So, all examples of human being spiked with something other than Allomantic or Feruchemical power end up horribly disfigured. This WoB basically says that is the thing that will happen:
 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Mechanism of Hemalurgy

The Blessings and the workings of Hemalurgy gave me some trouble as I designed the second and third books of this series. On one hand, I liked the way Hemalurgy worked by stealing powers from Allomancers or Feruchemists and giving them to other people. However, if I was going to limit myself to sixteen metals and be able to steal both Allomancy and Feruchemy, that meant I needed a mechanism to determine which power got stolen. If, for instance, you drove a pewter spike into a person who was both an Allomancer and a Feruchemist, then how would that spike know which power to suck out and grant to the one who would gain it?

As I was toying with how this would work, I realized that I needed to work the kandra and the koloss into this as well. Only, it was ridiculous to assume that the Lord Ruler would kill Allomancers to make koloss. There weren't enough Allomancers, for one thing—plus it would be foolish to lose the power of an Allomancer to gain an inferior tool in a koloss.

So that meant koloss had to be made out of regular people, not Allomancers or Feruchemists. Suddenly I had another set of abilities that Hemalurgy had to be able to steal—the basic pieces of Preservation inside the souls of all men.

Hence the decision that where the spike was placed in the receiver, and how it was used to kill a person, influenced how the power was shaped. Now a pewter spike could steal any of a number of powers, based on how it was used. And regular people could be used instead of Allomancers—however, when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used.

My rationale for this is that if the spike is pulling out the pure power of Preservation—part of the power of all creation—and twisting it, it would change the body of the recipient greatly. Twisting them through use of the twisted power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 17, 2009)

And this is talking about spiking part of human soul to human soul, spiking animal parts should result in far greater changes (and we do see that in Chimeras).

And per this one Hemalurgy often has horrible effects (or side-effects I guess, unles Koloss transformation is necessary to obtain the power):
 

Spoiler

Chaos2651

Is there a rationale to how Hemalurgic powers are distributed? I tried to look for a system, but they seem rather randomly distributed. For example, the spike which steals Allomantic powers for a particular quadrant is not always in one particular spot.

Brandon Sanderson

That is correct, it's not always in one particular spot. None of them are. I used as my model on this magic system the concept of acupuncture and pressure points. Placing a Hemalurgic spike is a very delicate and specific art. Imagine there being a different overlay on a human body, like a new network of nerves, representing lines, points, and 'veins' of the soul's spiritual makeup.

What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.

Hemalurgy is a very brutal way of making changes like this, though, so it often has monstrous effects. (Like with the koloss.) And in most cases, it leaves a kind of 'hole' in the spirit's natural defenses, which is how Ruin was able to touch the souls of Hemalurgists directly.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Allomantic gold, electrum, and Atium Prime are odd ones. They give their own sense, yes, but they also do something else. Either tapping into Identity or Fortune, they end up messing with the Spiritual Realm. So I feel like they could be stored, but I doubt all of it could be stored. Gold Shadows could store the additional human+ maybe seeing out of their eyes as well, but with Atium and Electrum, if you aren’t storing Fortune, would storing the shadow do anything?

I don't think those shadows are senses, rather a peer into the SR, Fortune not senses. You won't be able to store that with Tin. With chromium I don't think you won't store shadows as well, it would just make Atium, electrum, gold and malatium shodows show more of the future if tapped, or when stored show closer future.

14 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Now I come to a recent addition that I’m trying out. What of Koloss Sense? Powerful Soothers/Rioters have the ability to sense the koloss, and likely other Hemalurgic constructs they control, from a distance

That's connection, F-duralumin, not a sense.

14 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Speaking of Hemalurgy, let’s talk about it. H-Tin steals senses, so that will certainly help give extra senses. Although, I would argue that, if you find the right bind points, you could steal an animal’s senses, such as the ability to see UV light, or infrared Vision. Maybe you could steal the enhanced night vision of an owl for example, but I’m not too sure if you could store that. Still, it would be quite interesting to see (pun intended).

I don't think you want to mix an animal soul with your soul - Chimeras aren't bad enough?

14 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Now, there’s been controversy over the store-ability of perfect pitch and perfect color recognition. It’s an augmentation to a preexisting sense, but it doesn’t really seem different enough to be stored separately. But I feel like it has to do something for F-tin, right? I don’t know, maybe it’s me getting my hopes up, but I feel like there has to be some interaction.

It's not a separate sense but rather an enhanced sense, storing hearing while with perfect pitch would make you gain more attributes, and tapping it would give you more. Just like the storing strength of a little boy compared to a strongman.

But all invested people have a life sense, not just Nalthinas (in Warbreaker it was said that everyone with Breaths have a bit of Life Sense, but in SA Rysn has Heightening-like effects which are the result of high investiture - that to me suggest that everyone has a life sense, just very, very tiny, gained from their investiture), so all can store it and tap it to the limits of perfect life sense for a short time.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

16 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Aw man, did I already miss something important?

What do you mean by this?

Not only the chance to awaken something to grant you its version of spiritual vision but also the 7th heightening gives you invested object aura recognition.  I think it specifies breaths but I have always pictured it more like life sense for objects.  Lifesense is actually you picking up the investiture of things.  Even plant and animal life have investiture in them.  

It says a lot about how much drabs lose when you can no longer life sense them but can still sense the grass and plant life around you... 

Anyways at the 7th heightening you can sense objects that have had investiture put into them which is pretty epic as well.  

 

Brandon has mentioned (in a reddit ama a long while ago) that a blind character with gold allomancy could use the spiritual sense that comes with those metals uses as vision. Everything has a spiritual self in the cosmere and a blind person burning gold, ignoring themselves walking around, could navigate the world around them as if they had sight.  He did specify how expensive it would be... but in the case of a tin compounder who is not opposed to popping in a spike from time to time they could store that gold spiritual sight and then remove the spike and compound that sight forever far cheaper than using gold allomancy just for vision.  

I personally believe an awakened objects vision would be closer to seeing the spiritual sight of gold.  

A fun concept past that is that aluminum doesn't seem to have a spiritual shadow... however it blocks that spiritual vision in a LOS behind it.  I kind of think of that spiritual sight as a pseudo Byakugan.   It gives 360 vision plus the ability to comprehend the 360 vision and anything aluminum moving through that 360 vision would appear as a void of space entirely... perhaps a person with spiritual sight would have a better time reacting and seeing aluminum weapons due to them causing such a disruption. 

Now it makes me wonder if you could awaken an object to show you the way it preceieves the world would you be able to command a cloak to react specifically to those voids in space making one of the few invested objects capable of reacting and defending against aluminum?  

Edit: @Trusk'our

I gotta tag you for my crazy awakening thoughts given a lot of this came from another thread we talked in. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Brandon has mentioned (in a reddit ama a long while ago) that a blind character with gold allomancy could use the spiritual sense that comes with those metals uses as vision. Everything has a spiritual self in the cosmere and a blind person burning gold, ignoring themselves walking around, could navigate the world around them as if they had sight.  He did specify how expensive it would be... but in the case of a tin compounder who is not opposed to popping in a spike from time to time they could store that gold spiritual sight and then remove the spike and compound that sight forever far cheaper than using gold allomancy just for vision.  

This? 

Spoiler

Herowannabe

What happens when a blind person burns Gold- especially of he "sees" a version of himself that isn't blind? Can he see the other version or just hear/feel/sense him? What about the other version, can it see things? Could a blind person use gold in this way to see the world around him?

Brandon Sanderson

A blind person would indeed sense these things, but not have the vision with the eyes. In the same way that a blind person still dreams, but doesn't "See" in them. (As I understand it.) I'd suggest talking to someone who is blind and getting their take on how this would work.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

[therunner he/him]

12 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Brandon has mentioned (in a reddit ama a long while ago) that a blind character with gold allomancy could use the spiritual sense that comes with those metals uses as vision. Everything has a spiritual self in the cosmere and a blind person burning gold, ignoring themselves walking around, could navigate the world around them as if they had sight.  He did specify how expensive it would be... but in the case of a tin compounder who is not opposed to popping in a spike from time to time they could store that gold spiritual sight and then remove the spike and compound that sight forever far cheaper than using gold allomancy just for vision. 

That is not the case, all Brandon said is that blind person would sense that things regular Gold user would. But specifically says they would not have vision with the eyes, likening to blind person dreaming. So they could not use this to navigate the world at all.

Spoiler

Herowannabe

What happens when a blind person burns Gold- especially of he "sees" a version of himself that isn't blind? Can he see the other version or just hear/feel/sense him? What about the other version, can it see things? Could a blind person use gold in this way to see the world around him?

Brandon Sanderson

A blind person would indeed sense these things, but not have the vision with the eyes. In the same way that a blind person still dreams, but doesn't "See" in them. (As I understand it.) I'd suggest talking to someone who is blind and getting their take on how this would work.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

That is not the case, all Brandon said is that blind person would sense that things regular Gold user would. But specifically says they would not have vision with the eyes, likening to blind person dreaming. So they could not use this to navigate the world at all.

  Reveal hidden contents

Herowannabe

What happens when a blind person burns Gold- especially of he "sees" a version of himself that isn't blind? Can he see the other version or just hear/feel/sense him? What about the other version, can it see things? Could a blind person use gold in this way to see the world around him?

Brandon Sanderson

A blind person would indeed sense these things, but not have the vision with the eyes. In the same way that a blind person still dreams, but doesn't "See" in them. (As I understand it.) I'd suggest talking to someone who is blind and getting their take on how this would work.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

 

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This? 

  Reveal hidden contents

Herowannabe

What happens when a blind person burns Gold- especially of he "sees" a version of himself that isn't blind? Can he see the other version or just hear/feel/sense him? What about the other version, can it see things? Could a blind person use gold in this way to see the world around him?

Brandon Sanderson

A blind person would indeed sense these things, but not have the vision with the eyes. In the same way that a blind person still dreams, but doesn't "See" in them. (As I understand it.) I'd suggest talking to someone who is blind and getting their take on how this would work.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

I believe that the WOB searches are great but I went and found the entire post from the reddit AMA.  I believe that there is more context to the answer than what you have found. Yes that is the one. 

Question:

Spoiler

Thanks for doing this! You're awesome!

Where do I start? How about some Mistborn questions:

1. I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The metal that's stumping me is Gold- what happens when a blind person burns Gold- especially of he "sees" a version of himself that isn't blind? Can he see the other version or just hear/feel/sense him? What about the other version, can it see things? Could a blind person use gold in this way to see the world around him?

2. Can an infused Hemalurgy spike be affected by allomancy- steel pushes and iron pulls? Or does the charge interfere with the Allomancy much like a persons body would?

And some Cosmere questions:

1. Hoid has Lerasium and breaths, Does Hoid have anything from Sel? Soul stamps perhaps?

2. is Sigzil, as Hoid's apprentice, Rosharan? Has Hoid taken him to other worlds?

3. Was Sazed the intended recipient of "The Letter"?

Answer: 

Spoiler

1. No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little.

2. A blind person would indeed sense these things, but not have the vision with the eyes. In the same way that a blind person still dreams, but doesn't "See" in them. (As I understand it.) I'd suggest talking to someone who is blind and getting their take on how this would work.

3. Anything infused (regardless of the world or magic that infused it) is resistant to magic. So you'd have a lot of trouble pushing or pulling on a spike, unless you had access to a boost of some sort to overcome the resistance.

2-1) RAFO.

2-2) He is from Roshar.

2-3) No, Sig hasn't visited any other worlds.

2-4) Meaning, the one in the epigraphs? No, that is written to someone else. (They're not from a world you've seen yet.)

There was more than just gold being a sense but not seeing. 

I agree that gold isn't seeing in the conventional way but I believe Vin "saw" an atium shadow of everything.  Even the windows of the keep. Am I seeing things when I dream?  I would imagine not but I am able to navigate around them. If what you are "seeing" are the spiritual aspects of things then you could store one of these spiritual sight metals and compound that sight. Gold would simply be the least expensive and least disorienting one to have. I do imagine that awakened objects likely see / sense things in a similar fashion which is why I said what I said. 

Atium, electrum and gold all show a spiritual self in a spiritual world. Whether you sense it or whether you see it I dont know. Perhaps this WoB simply states that the blind character would only see in a way he sees.  A seeing character may be able to store the sight from the spiritual in a sense more like we see in our dreams or Vin saw the atium shadowed landscape around her. 

I do like how Brandon nods to this causing savantism though.

Aluminum would still show up as a void no matter how you sense the spiritual and I still stand by my thoughts on that. 360 degree sensation of the world whether seen or felt is still 360 degree sensation of the world and a huge benefit to everything. 

Back to the OP.

Do you think a Kandra with F tin could consume a dogs olfactory sense and store a level of smell even to that of a dog available to tap later on?  What if they stole the ability of a spider to feel and sense the world?  Or a mantis shrimps ability to see on that different spectrum?  I am not picturing a tin ferring Kandra selling some really trippy metalminds for people to experience the world at an entirely different level. 

 

[Koloss17 She/They]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Two notes: One, Investiture detection works only on metallic objects, to see Investiture you would require quite powerful Steelsight (you probably could get that from F-Tin, but you would burn out your stores very fast.)
Two: You get also a nice weakness in form of metallic dust basically blinding this sense.

 

Well, yeah, but still a sense that can be stored!

Quote

Allomantic Bronze detects kinetic Investiture, that is the sense. It detects both Allomancy and Feruchemy exactly the same way, they just 'sound' different.
So most likely they are not separate senses.

 

Well, I honestly slightly doubt that. If it were the same way, it would be easily utilized by seekers.

Quote

zas678

Can you detect Feruchemy with bronze Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually possible but it's very difficult. There's a tweak that you need to do to make it work and I haven't talked about that yet. They do not know how to do it… on Scadrial. But you can theoretically detect all kinds of active Investiture. Investiture that's being used. Kinetic Investiture would be the way to call it.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

Now, you could argue it’s a matter of intent, but I think it’s more a matter of looking for the right thing.

Quote

 

Don't think that would count as sense. The way they can feel them is basically the same way they give them orders, through strong Connection.
No Connection, no sensing, and with F-Tin you could not store that Connection.

 

Yeahh, I guess you’re right. But I can’t complain about getting more reverse-compoundable things for other metals!

Quote

You surely could spike yourself with animal sense, but you most likely would end up mutating into something like the Chimeras from Era 2. Those are strongly hinted at to be created via spiking animal attributes into human.
So you would get UV/IR vision, at the low cost of your sanity.

So I would tend to disagree on this. I think it is highly dependent on what you are stealing from an animal. Is it their intelligence? Their strength? Their eyes? Their memories?

I think all of these would lead to a different outcome, and only some would warp your mind.

and as to @alder24’s points,

Quote

I don't think those shadows are senses, rather a peer into the SR, Fortune not senses. You won't be able to store that with Tin. With chromium I don't think you won't store shadows as well, it would just make Atium, electrum, gold and malatium shodows show more of the future if tapped, or when stored show closer future.

 

Well, I certainly agree that fortune is an aspect of both electrum and atium, and maybe even gold. However, since there is some sort of “visual” component that doesn’t use your eyes (see: inquisitors), I think there is also some sense component to it.

Quote

It's not a separate sense but rather an enhanced sense, storing hearing while with perfect pitch would make you gain more attributes, and tapping it would give you more. Just like the storing strength of a little boy compared to a strongman.

 

Well, that’s a fair point. Still, improves F-tin storing, so I count it as a win!

Quote

But all invested people have a life sense, not just Nalthinas (in Warbreaker it was said that everyone with Breaths have a bit of Life Sense, but in SA Rysn has Heightening-like effects which are the result of high investiture - that to me suggest that everyone has a life sense, just very, very tiny, gained from their investiture), so all can store it and tap it to the limits of perfect life sense for a short time.

Yep, this is certainly true. Which just gives more possibility for sense storing! 
 

Although, it would probably be easier to get breaths than a dawnshard…

[alder24]

32 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 

I believe that the WOB searches are great but I went and found the entire post from the reddit AMA.  I believe that there is more context to the answer than what you have found. Yes that is the one. 

Question:

  Reveal hidden contents

Thanks for doing this! You're awesome!

Where do I start? How about some Mistborn questions:

1. I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The metal that's stumping me is Gold- what happens when a blind person burns Gold- especially of he "sees" a version of himself that isn't blind? Can he see the other version or just hear/feel/sense him? What about the other version, can it see things? Could a blind person use gold in this way to see the world around him?

2. Can an infused Hemalurgy spike be affected by allomancy- steel pushes and iron pulls? Or does the charge interfere with the Allomancy much like a persons body would?

And some Cosmere questions:

1. Hoid has Lerasium and breaths, Does Hoid have anything from Sel? Soul stamps perhaps?

2. is Sigzil, as Hoid's apprentice, Rosharan? Has Hoid taken him to other worlds?

3. Was Sazed the intended recipient of "The Letter"?

Answer: 

  Reveal hidden contents

1. No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little.

2. A blind person would indeed sense these things, but not have the vision with the eyes. In the same way that a blind person still dreams, but doesn't "See" in them. (As I understand it.) I'd suggest talking to someone who is blind and getting their take on how this would work.

3. Anything infused (regardless of the world or magic that infused it) is resistant to magic. So you'd have a lot of trouble pushing or pulling on a spike, unless you had access to a boost of some sort to overcome the resistance.

2-1) RAFO.

2-2) He is from Roshar.

2-3) No, Sig hasn't visited any other worlds.

2-4) Meaning, the one in the epigraphs? No, that is written to someone else. (They're not from a world you've seen yet.)

There was more than just gold being a sense but not seeing. 

I agree that gold isn't seeing in the conventional way but I believe Vin "saw" an atium shadow of everything.  Even the windows of the keep. Am I seeing things when I dream?  I would imagine not but I am able to navigate around them. If what you are "seeing" are the spiritual aspects of things then you could store one of these spiritual sight metals and compound that sight. Gold would simply be the least expensive and least disorienting one to have. I do imagine that awakened objects likely see / sense things in a similar fashion which is why I said what I said. 

Atium, electrum and gold all show a spiritual self in a spiritual world. Whether you sense it or whether you see it I dont know. Perhaps this WoB simply states that the blind character would only see in a way he sees.  A seeing character may be able to store the sight from the spiritual in a sense more like we see in our dreams or Vin saw the atium shadowed landscape around her. 

I do like how Brandon nods to this causing savantism though.

Aluminum would still show up as a void no matter how you sense the spiritual and I still stand by my thoughts on that. 360 degree sensation of the world whether seen or felt is still 360 degree sensation of the world and a huge benefit to everything. 

Taking into account the full WoB it's still about 2 separate questions - one if a blind person would be able to perceive Atium shadows, the answer is yes but you need to burn a lot of it, the other one is if a blind person would be able to perceive a gold shadow (yes) and by touching them, perceive the world through them, the answer is yes, but it won't bring their sight back, they will sense things in more like a dream state, rather than eyes. It can be handy, but it won't make them see. The same interpretation which I had before full context.

Atium shadow and all other shadows are a Fortune thing, not sense things. It's more like you are more in SR, than you see into it, there is no sense to be stored here, because it is Fortune. That's what I think about it

32 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Back to the OP.

Do you think a Kandra with F tin could consume a dogs olfactory sense and store a level of smell even to that of a dog available to tap later on?  What if they stole the ability of a spider to feel and sense the world?  Or a mantis shrimps ability to see on that different spectrum?  I am not picturing a tin ferring Kandra selling some really trippy metalminds for people to experience the world at an entirely different level. 

I don't think it will work that well, because the kandra after a body swap won't have those sensory organs anymore, and it will just work on a far smaller scale than it does in those animals. You need a sensory apparatus in my opinion. If you don’t have spider’s hair, you won’t get that sense by tapping F-tin even if it was stored when you were a spider.

 

39 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Well, I certainly agree that fortune is an aspect of both electrum and atium, and maybe even gold. However, since there is some sort of “visual” component that doesn’t use your eyes (see: inquisitors), I think there is also some sense component to it.

Which I will argue is your body's way to translate spiritual information gained by burning those metals into a physical one - it's still spiritual and Fortune. A fortune alone gives you a "gut feeling" - can this be stored in tin? No, it's Fortune. It's something different - an attribute that you have to sense the SR - but not a sense in F-tin way.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Which I will argue is your body's way to translate spiritual information gained by burning those metals into a physical one - it's still spiritual and Fortune. A fortune alone gives you a "gut feeling" - can this be stored in tin? No, it's Fortune. It's something different - an attribute that you have to sense the SR - but not a sense in F-tin way.

Could you perhaps store the Shadows only, but not the mental enhancement that allows you to react to them? That way you're still storing the sense, but not the 'gut feeling' Fortune aspects?

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Could you perhaps store the Shadows only, but not the mental enhancement that allows you to react to them? That way you're still storing the sense, but not the 'gut feeling' Fortune aspects?

No, shadows are not a sense, it's the "gut feeling" of Fortune but shifted into the extreme. Seeing the future when burning Atium is based on Fortune, not a sense. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

No, shadows are not a sense, it's the "gut feeling" of Fortune but shifted into the extreme. Seeing the future when burning Atium is based on Fortune, not a sense. 

  Hide contents

Questioner

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

I see what you're getting at, but it doesn't directly disprove it. Maybe I'm biased because iirc I've seen posts where the end consensus is that Atium shadows could be stored, but I lean towards the idea that you could store the ability to see the Shadows.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

21 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Aw man, did I already miss something important?

What do you mean by this?

Tamriel already brought it up, 7th hieghting lets you sence invested objects same as lifesence.

18 hours ago, Argenti said:

When awakened objects "see" they see through something similar to steelsight, and you could probably do some crazy  command to make it grant you that. Here's longer explanation 

 

Not what I was talking about, but defenitly relevent.

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Not only the chance to awaken something to grant you its version of spiritual vision but also the 7th heightening gives you invested object aura recognition.  I think it specifies breaths but I have always pictured it more like life sense for objects.  Lifesense is actually you picking up the investiture of things.  Even plant and animal life have investiture in them.  

I have always pictured it the same, but most objects are drab. In fact, I thought there was a WoB saying you could sense metalminds.

 

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Taking into account the full WoB it's still about 2 separate questions - one if a blind person would be able to perceive Atium shadows, the answer is yes but you need to burn a lot of it, the other one is if a blind person would be able to perceive a gold shadow (yes) and by touching them, perceive the world through them, the answer is yes, but it won't bring their sight back, they will sense things in more like a dream state, rather than eyes. It can be handy, but it won't make them see. The same interpretation which I had before full context.

Atium shadow and all other shadows are a Fortune thing, not sense things. It's more like you are more in SR, than you see into it, there is no sense to be stored here, because it is Fortune. That's what I think about it

I don't think it will work that well, because the kandra after a body swap won't have those sensory organs anymore, and it will just work on a far smaller scale than it does in those animals. You need a sensory apparatus in my opinion. If you don’t have spider’s hair, you won’t get that sense by tapping F-tin even if it was stored when you were a spider.

 

Which I will argue is your body's way to translate spiritual information gained by burning those metals into a physical one - it's still spiritual and Fortune. A fortune alone gives you a "gut feeling" - can this be stored in tin? No, it's Fortune. It's something different - an attribute that you have to sense the SR - but not a sense in F-tin way.

I disagree.

Q/A 1 is split between saying atium works and saying that the blind man would burn lots of tin and likely become a savant. 
Q/A 2 is only partially answered. The question is what happens if (ex) you have your eyes stabbed out, and burn gold and one of the 2 yous dodged. The answer only covers if both yous are blind, which you all are interpreting correctly.

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Q/A 1 is split between saying atium works and saying that the blind man would burn lots of tin and likely become a savant. 

The question is: "As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong." - answer: "No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little. " - not tin savant, Atium savant. The question was about Atium. How would tin savantism help him perceiving Atium shadows?

18 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Q/A 2 is only partially answered. The question is what happens if (ex) you have your eyes stabbed out, and burn gold and one of the 2 yous dodged. The answer only covers if both yous are blind, which you all are interpreting correctly.

Did you read the question? Q: Blind person burning gold, can he see the world through his gold shadows? A: He can sense but not see, the same way that a blind person's dreams. - I don't know how a blind person dreams, but his mind creates something, some form of images, not accurate images, but something - what I think it means, if a gold shadow wasn't blind, a blind person would "see" a dream-like images, unrecognizable to his mind, giving him almost no accurate information. The question was about a blind person in general - mostly I assume blind from birth, to whom images of a gold shadow vision won't tell him anything, because that person's mind doesn't understand vision. A blinded person, who experienced seeing in his life, would be able to understand to some degree those visions and see through them a bit.

There is nothing in that WoB about stabbing out eyes. And because Brandon talks about dreaming, his answer covers a blind person using non-blind gold shadow - because as a blind person he can't experience only seeing through the shadow's eyes, while he can hear, taste, feel and smell through shadow's eyes which doesn't need a dream-like situation.

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Well, I honestly slightly doubt that. If it were the same way, it would be easily utilized by seekers.
Now, you could argue it’s a matter of intent, but I think it’s more a matter of looking for the right thing.

The WoB you are quoting literally says it is possible through Bronze Allomancy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6113), hence it is within the scope of the sense, not a different thing.
It is a tweak, not a full blown new sense.

Quote

So I would tend to disagree on this. I think it is highly dependent on what you are stealing from an animal. Is it their intelligence? Their strength? Their eyes? Their memories?

I think all of these would lead to a different outcome, and only some would warp your mind.

Per the WoB all non-Allomantic/non-Feruchemical spikes warp soul. And Koloss have just strength stolen, and from humans, and they end up looking like that.
All of it will warp your mind, body and soul, that is what Hemalurgy does by its very nature. You cannot just avoid that.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 I agree that gold isn't seeing in the conventional way but I believe Vin "saw" an atium shadow of everything.  Even the windows of the keep. Am I seeing things when I dream?  I would imagine not but I am able to navigate around them. If what you are "seeing" are the spiritual aspects of things then you could store one of these spiritual sight metals and compound that sight. Gold would simply be the least expensive and least disorienting one to have. I do imagine that awakened objects likely see / sense things in a similar fashion which is why I said what I said.

Yeah, and per the WoB (even with the extended context) Gold won't let you see. Atium, sure you will shadows of everything, but Gold only ever shows you yourself , and past version at that which is useless for navigating around.

[Koloss17 She/They]

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Per the WoB all non-Allomantic/non-Feruchemical spikes warp soul. And Koloss have just strength stolen, and from humans, and they end up looking like that.
All of it will warp your mind, body and soul, that is what Hemalurgy does by its very nature. You cannot just avoid that.

 

Well, yeah. Of course!! I’m just saying that it probably would not equate to being a chimera. I would certainly think it would bend things more than just allomantic spikes, but I don’t think it would be as extreme as koloss or chimeras.

[therunner he/him]

Just now, Koloss17 said:

Well, yeah. Of course!! I’m just saying that it probably would not equate to being a chimera. I would certainly think it would bend things more than just allomantic spikes, but I don’t think it would be as extreme as koloss or chimeras.

Well, even if just half as extreme, that would be very debilitating. Chimeras v1 were made with a single spike! And those were some drastic changes.

And unless Autonomy provided Set with some knowledge of how to create fullblown Hemalurgic constructs, those Chimeras were basically just people spiked with animal attributes.

First version of them being most likely some physical attribute taken from a dog, and the second version having that same physical attribute (speed?) plus some sense from a dog, since they were able to track well.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

The WoB you are quoting literally says it is possible through Bronze Allomancy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6113), hence it is within the scope of the sense, not a different thing.
It is a tweak, not a full blown new sense.

Per the WoB all non-Allomantic/non-Feruchemical spikes warp soul. And Koloss have just strength stolen, and from humans, and they end up looking like that.
All of it will warp your mind, body and soul, that is what Hemalurgy does by its very nature. You cannot just avoid that.

Yeah, and per the WoB (even with the extended context) Gold won't let you see. Atium, sure you will shadows of everything, but Gold only ever shows you yourself , and past version at that which is useless for navigating around.

I figure atium, electrum and gold all granted the vision of the world worth of spiritual sense.  However the portion of atium that is a highly invested God metal allowed your mind to process everything better.  

As I look back through that WoB I realize Brandon answered how a blind man would see it.  He would see it the same way a blind person sees a dream.  

I think Vin shows us what a seeing person could see it as.  While this weakens the option to replace it as sight for the unseeing, I think it would make it far more beneficial to those who can see in low to no light circumstances which if stored would be a large boon of its own.  

Either way I don't hate @alder24 theory that the sight is fortune based and not really a sense that could be stored.  While it kills my thought that someone who could compound both tin and zinc could recreate the atium we see in Era 1, I don't mind that sense being taken away.  

I have had a hard time separating these spiritual senses in my mind.  I think lifesense combined with a steel spike such as kelsiers could probably make a wonderful 360 degree field of vision and sense for early everything organic and inorganic.  But mashing multiple magic systems together to offer sight to a blind person might be a large waste of potential and resources.  The easiest way for it would to awaken a byakugan like glass eye straight up. I think having it show you the world how it sees it would work well.  A cloak is able to see and recognize the arrow as a threat fast enough to snatch it out of the air.  There is a sense there that could be awakened and could be harvested for tin storage eventually.  

[IlstrawberrySeed]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

The question is: "As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong." - answer: "No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little. " - not tin savant, Atium savant. The question was about Atium. How would tin savantism help him perceiving Atium shadows?

Did you read the question? Q: Blind person burning gold, can he see the world through his gold shadows? A: He can sense but not see, the same way that a blind person's dreams. - I don't know how a blind person dreams, but his mind creates something, some form of images, not accurate images, but something - what I think it means, if a gold shadow wasn't blind, a blind person would "see" a dream-like images, unrecognizable to his mind, giving him almost no accurate information. The question was about a blind person in general - mostly I assume blind from birth, to whom images of a gold shadow vision won't tell him anything, because that person's mind doesn't understand vision. A blinded person, who experienced seeing in his life, would be able to understand to some degree those visions and see through them a bit.

There is nothing in that WoB about stabbing out eyes. And because Brandon talks about dreaming, his answer covers a blind person using non-blind gold shadow - because as a blind person he can't experience only seeing through the shadow's eyes, while he can hear, taste, feel and smell through shadow's eyes which doesn't need a dream-like situation.

I could be wrong about q1, I did miss that assume it works the same. (I was seeing BS long response as more confirmation of the assumption, rather than answering the question, which was the short response.) However, version of himself that isn't blind were her exact words, so q2 isn't fully answered.

Edited May 16, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed