Radiants IRL

[bmcclure7]

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I never once placed Windrunners as the order, in fact I never pinned it down to a single order, as it would transend all orders. It would be a problem that society must adress.

 I did,  I said multiple times that  The wind runners, Skybreakers, And  Edge dancers, We're unlikely to form into Accession organizations. 

 

  Lightweavers could  And some other orders.

[+Kelkamer]

I think Willshapers are definitely the Engineers, specifically the Civil Engineers (Dustbringers are more mechanical/electrical engineer). 

Civil Engineers design and build infrastructure such as roads, bridges, dams, etc. Just like Willshapers. They're also "Builders" and Civil engineering is "construction engineering". Civil Engineers also do Water supply and quality, including sanitation; all things under the Willshaper purview. 

[Frustration]

16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I did,  I said multiple times that  The wind runners, Skybreakers, And  Edge dancers, We're unlikely to form into Accession organizations. 

 

  Lightweavers could  And some other orders.

Skybreakers quite easily could, in fact of all the orders they would be the most likely to do so, especially as their fourth ideal.

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/15/2023 at 0:38 PM, alder24 said:

All Surge usage would be capitalized or owned by a government. They would be used primarily as soldiers or methods to gain money. Transformation Surge realistically would be used for profit, a company or a government owning all Soulcasters and just gaining ridiculous amounts of money, while all mining and processing industries would collapse, plunging society into deep poverty.

The nature of the Oaths would make that hard. Some Orders would fairly easily accept that kind of control ... but not all. Lightweavers, Elsecallers, and Willshapers probably especially not. That would make Transformation hard to monopolize.

The scarier thing is combining Transformation with modern chemistry/physics knowledge. Soulcasting fissionables could get very deadly very quickly.

[Telperion]

I mean. The Skybreakers spent the last few thousand years killing any radiant that showed up do to their Ideals and Oaths soo its not only possible its been happening for a long time!

[alder24]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

The nature of the Oaths would make that hard. Some Orders would fairly easily accept that kind of control ... but not all. Lightweavers, Elsecallers, and Willshapers probably especially not. That would make Transformation hard to monopolize.

The scarier thing is combining Transformation with modern chemistry/physics knowledge. Soulcasting fissionables could get very deadly very quickly.

It's not like Radiants need to swear to by loyal or something - just make a law that prevents unauthorized Surgebinding, and send a team of Skybreaker to kill everyone who isn't a part of government/company force, Skybreakers were very good at killing Radiants for decades on Roshar. Each country would want to have their own Radiant teams, and they would mostly align with their countries, not one unified Radiant organization.

And yes, Elsecallers in a modern world would be very scary.

Edited May 16, 2023 by alder24

[therunner]

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's not like Radiants need to swear to by loyal or something - just make a law that prevents unauthorized Surgebinding, and send a team of Skybreaker to kill everyone who isn't a part of government/company force, Skybreakers were very good at killing Radiants for decades on Roshar. Each country would want to have their own Radiant teams, and they would mostly align with their countries, not one unified Radiant organization.

But why would Skybreakers choose to follow such a law? Current crop is quite fanatical at following letter of the law, however the vision Dalinar has of Nale shows him to be someone who emphasized that law should be motivated morally. What morals are there for law punishing Surgebinding with death?

Sure, some Skybreakers might choose to follow, but many more would not.
And unlike Roshar, in this scenario Skybreakers would not have the advantage of immortal leader, and of being the only ones knowing what is going on.

[alder24]

Just now, therunner said:

But why would Skybreakers choose to follow such a law? Current crop is quite fanatical at following letter of the law, however the vision Dalinar has of Nale shows him to be someone who emphasized that law should be motivated morally. What morals are there for law punishing Surgebinding with death?

The same morals which punish illegal gun owners? They're dangerous and unauthorized - one of them can teleport nukes. Maybe not immediately with death, but imprisonment until they agree to work with you under the law or something like that.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

And unlike Roshar, in this scenario Skybreakers would not have the advantage of immortal leader, and of being the only ones knowing what is going on.

Oh, don't worry about this one, there are a lot of immoral leaders on Earth for them to follow.

[bmcclure7]

17 hours ago, Kelkamer said:

I think Willshapers are definitely the Engineers, specifically the Civil Engineers (Dustbringers are more mechanical/electrical engineer). 

Civil Engineers design and build infrastructure such as roads, bridges, dams, etc. Just like Willshapers. They're also "Builders" and Civil engineering is "construction engineering". Civil Engineers also do Water supply and quality, including sanitation; all things under the Willshaper purview. 

 Not sure what being an engineer has to do with Setting people free?

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Skybreakers quite easily could, in fact of all the orders they would be the most likely to do so, especially as their fourth ideal.

 We have no idea how the 4th idea works you're trying to jump to conclusions. They are least likely  Since in our society assassination is illegal. 

 

1 hour ago, Telperion said:

I mean. The Skybreakers spent the last few thousand years killing any radiant that showed up do to their Ideals and Oaths soo its not only possible its been happening for a long time!

 They weren't acting as assassins they were acting as Officers of the law and bounty hunters.  Nothing they did could be qualified as assassination. 

[Telperion]

lol, its all about perceptions isn't it I feel like thats flawed logic? I could act as an officer of my law to kill someone I disagreed with. It's still murder and assassination especially if they don't live under the same laws that are allowing you to kill them. Pretty sure if a family member of yours started glowing and some flying dude just dropped by and killed them because of it. You would call it murder or assassination.

 

 

a person who kills another person

 

assassin. noun. as·sas·sin ə-ˈsas-ən. : a person who kills another person. especially : one who murders a politically important person either for pay or from loyalty to a cause

 

And Radients are inherently important people in the world of roshar.

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They weren't acting as assassins they were acting as Officers of the law and bounty hunters.  Nothing they did could be qualified as assassination. 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Telperion

[+Kelkamer]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Not sure what being an engineer has to do with Setting people free?

Me either, yet, but everything else about what a Willshaper does fits the job description. Every order needs a hobby I guess 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 We have no idea how the 4th idea works you're trying to jump to conclusions. They are least likely  Since in our society assassination is illegal. 

They don't care about what law they follow, only that they follow A law.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Telperion said:

lol, its all about perceptions isn't it I feel like thats flawed logic? I could act as an officer of my law to kill someone I disagreed with. It's still murder and assassination especially if they don't live under the same laws that are allowing you to kill them. Pretty sure if a family member of yours started glowing and some flying dude just dropped by and killed them because of it. You would call it murder or assassination.

 

 

a person who kills another person

 

assassin. noun. as·sas·sin ə-ˈsas-ən. : a person who kills another person. especially : one who murders a politically important person either for pay or from loyalty to a cause

 

And Radients are inherently important people in the world of roshar.

 

 Murder is defined as unlawfully killing someone. Which is not what they were doing they were very careful to always follow the law.

 More importantly as your own definition States has to be someone important politically, For pay or Ideological purposes. The people Lawfully executed by the skybreakers we're all nobody's. 

 

So no the skybreakers were not assassins. 

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They don't care about what law they follow, only that they follow A law.

 This is our world so what law could they be following that would allow for assassination?

 

 And you're wrong the 2st ideal is to just follow whatever laws are in effect where they are. Then the 3rd ideal is to follow one particular law above all else

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But why would Skybreakers choose to follow such a law? Current crop is quite fanatical at following letter of the law, however the vision Dalinar has of Nale shows him to be someone who emphasized that law should be motivated morally. What morals are there for law punishing Surgebinding with death?

Sure, some Skybreakers might choose to follow, but many more would not.
And unlike Roshar, in this scenario Skybreakers would not have the advantage of immortal leader, and of being the only ones knowing what is going on.

 I don't think you understand the skybreakers the whole point is that they don't trust their own morality to tell them right from wrong so they follow an external code or law. So saying that they wouldn't follow a law because it's immoral makes no sense. The whole point is that they don't trust their own ability to tell what is and is not moral. 

[Scott Beckman]

On 5/15/2023 at 10:44 AM, Kendelian said:

Skybreaker police forces

On 5/15/2023 at 11:38 AM, alder24 said:

Skybreakers - police

In my opinion, Skybreakers would make a horrifying policing force for what I'd subjectively consider generally upholding good. Their oaths are much more aligned to becoming the perfect gangster, or a highly authoritarian government's policing force—again, subjectivity; they'd uphold law well in such militaristic societies efficiently and mostly unwaveringly, just not my style of what an upholder of justice for civilians should be. Much better for internal affairs or military policing, for example, rather than the public. Their dedication to higher-ups over the flexible nature of morality would, in my opinion, make them the worst Order as a policing force. I believe that Windrunners and Edgedancers make much better forces for upholding good. As well as Willshapers to a niche extent (more higher crime than regular police calls), and Elsecallers for things like white-collar crime and detective work.

That said, this is all subjective. For example:

On 5/15/2023 at 10:44 AM, Kendelian said:

Edgedancer therapy clinics

I'd argue that Lightweavers would also make excellent therapists, although I do agree that Edgedancers would also make great therapists. They'd (Edgedancers) also make great CPS-like agents in my opinion. And Dustbringers could make great addiction counselors (their oaths seem to require mastery upon destructive forces). Actually, now that I think about it, I think every Order could make a great therapist or counselor of some kind given that they need to be broken to become Radiants to begin with.

Now I'm thinking about how cool it would be to choose a therapist, psychologist, counselor, etc. and filtering by Radiant Order. I hope that's one of Kaladin's legacies

All 10 Orders would make great engineers, artists, performers, businessmen, and pretty much anything else. Honestly, I think a more interesting question is which Orders would be poorly suited to a certain career or societal role? It seems like you can always make an argument for an Order being good at what sounds like something that goes against their oaths. My answer being that I think Skybreakers should not be a policing force for the public, but rather for internal affairs as well as being lawyers, judges, and jury members (alongside Elsecallers).

And then there's Bondsmiths. They'd be good at everything that I can think of lol.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Scott Beckman

[therunner]

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

The same morals which punish illegal gun owners? They're dangerous and unauthorized - one of them can teleport nukes. Maybe not immediately with death, but imprisonment until they agree to work with you under the law or something like that.

 

Yeah, but those are not punishable by death are they?
Death is far too steep. I mean, even IRL most of the countries already abolished death penalty on moral grounds, so most people considering it immoral by definition.

I would agree with your assertion if punishment for 'unregistered' Surgebinding was not death, but e.g. imprisonment, possibly removal of powers via Bondsmith. To me, even indefinite imprisonment unless they work for you is too much, that is too close to slavery for comfort.

Quote

Oh, don't worry about this one, there are a lot of immoral leaders on Earth for them to follow.

I said immortal as in undying, not immoral. So I do worry about it, because Earth has no one like that to maintain cohesion (and who is their main religious figure on top of that)!

Quote

 This is our world so what law could they be following that would allow for assassination?

They can follow a law or a code. Since pirate code or mafia code is enough, those would definitely allow for assassination. Hell, there were assassin orders who had codes of their own, those could prove sufficient as well.

Quote

 And you're wrong the 2st ideal is to just follow whatever laws are in effect where they are. Then the 3rd ideal is to follow one particular law above all else

No, that is just interpretation of Skybreakers under Nale.
The actual words of the 2nd Ideal saying nothing about following laws that are in effect:

Quote

I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal.

This is the ideal where they adhere to some particular code system or law system, that guides their understanding of justice. But it does not mean they have to follow laws of wherever they are.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I don't think you understand the skybreakers the whole point is that they don't trust their own morality to tell them right from wrong so they follow an external code or law. So saying that they wouldn't follow a law because it's immoral makes no sense. The whole point is that they don't trust their own ability to tell what is and is not moral. 

Not all Skybreakers are as extreme cases as Szeth is. Sure, he does not trust himself at all, but that does not mean all Skybreakers don't.
Some might simply see it that while personal morals are fallible, external code is more reliable guide.

And importantly, Szeth has extremely strong sense of morality, but at the same time also extremely strong adherence to laws and social rules. That is why he went insane, on one hand laws and social rules demanded he is Truthless and so he should not make decisions and just obey, on the other hand his morality was telling him that what he is doing is wrong, and he hated it.
We can consider his understanding flawed, but that is the purpose of Oaths, to guide Radiants in personal growth. In Skybreaker case, balancing obeying a system of rules or a person with their own morals.

I mean, look at the description of them from Brandon:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Skybreaker

I will seek justice

Skybreaker oaths are themed toward justice, fighting for causes, and enforcing social rules. They generally reinforce the importance of moral codes, legal structures, and similar boundaries that protect civilization.

The Skybreakers were the enforcers of the Knights Radiant, often tasked with keeping the peace, policing the other Orders, and making certain that dangerous or dark forces in the world were contained. This sometimes gave them a bad reputation among the more free-thinking Orders of Knights, but the Skybreakers (at their best) were not merciless. They were the ones who believed that nobody, not even a Radiant, should be above being questioned. They were the ones that did the sometimes tough job of making certain that the Orders didn’t abuse their power to become tyrants, as the Skybreakers saw that those with powers could easily oppress those who had none.

They tend to attract those who believe in the importance of legal code, those who have strong moral codes of their own, and those who think the best defense against anarchy are things like patriotism, moral fiber, and rules to govern behavior. Note that the current incarnation, led by the Herald Nale in his madness, is more rigid than the ancient order, which understood that the law was not perfect, but instead represented an ideal to try to reach over time. Anyone believing in finding true justice, in defending the innocent, and in punishing the guilty would be welcome in the Order.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

So per him, Skybreakers attract people who have strong moral codes of their own, not those who don't trust their own morality. And Skybreakers should understand that law is not perfect, so plausibly some Skybreakers could challenge laws, by e.g. campaigning to have them reformed, or choosing not to enforce them.

Edited May 17, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 We have no idea how the 4th idea works you're trying to jump to conclusions. They are least likely  Since in our society assassination is illegal. 

Tell that to CIA. Or Putin. 

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Not sure what being an engineer has to do with Setting people free?

They can construct cheap houses allowing poor people to afford them and setting them free from loans and obligations towards greedy bank industry. Easy case.

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They weren't acting as assassins they were acting as Officers of the law and bounty hunters.  Nothing they did could be qualified as assassination. 

Nale allowing and guiding Parshendi how to assassinate Gavilar... 

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 This is our world so what law could they be following that would allow for assassination?

Internal CIA special secret agents guidelines or something like that, allowing them to kill people if order was given. Yes, they can do that.

 

7 hours ago, Scott Beckman said:

In my opinion, Skybreakers would make a horrifying policing force for what I'd subjectively consider generally upholding good. Their oaths are much more aligned to becoming the perfect gangster, or a highly authoritarian government's policing force such as for communists and fascists—again, subjectivity; they'd uphold law well in such militaristic societies efficiently and mostly unwaveringly, just not my style of what an upholder of justice for civilians should be. Much better for internal affairs or military policing, for example, rather than the public. Their dedication to higher-ups over the flexible nature of morality would, in my opinion, make them the worst Order as a policing force. I believe that Windrunners and Edgedancers make much better forces for upholding good. As well as Willshapers to a niche extent (more higher crime than regular police calls), and Elsecallers for things like white-collar crime and detective work.

Police are to catch people breaking the law, judges are to decide whether a person is guilty or not (Truthwatchers might be a good judges). Skybreakers won't go around town killing criminals, because police aren't executioners, and that's illegal (unlike on Roshar). That's why Skybreakers would be a perfect police force, as none of them would be on a power trip, none of them would try to bend the rules or break them to arrest people, none of them would be biased, none of them would provoke people, none of them would be corrupted. A perfect police force.

They don't need to be dedicated to higher-ups, they can swear 3rd oath to follow internal police guidelines, 4th to commit themself to special cause, like drug trafficking, even 5th one doesn't allow them to break the law, but only gives them a free choice to decide what matter is more important than others (perfect for people on higher-up positions, dedicated to a special cause like DEA).

Edgedancers would be the worst police that could be, they are not only ok with breaking the law, but they themself are breaking the law to commit morally good actions (like Lift breaking traders cart which send food into the hands of poor, hungry people - morally good, yet highly illegal). Windrunners are the same, they would break the law just to help others - ("Yes, officer, I'm speeding but you see my mother is in hospital and I need to go there" - "ok, so go without the ticket"). In some cases, like in hostage situations, Windrunners would be a better choice. However overall they are soldiers on Roshar, they would exceed as peacekeeping force during wars, force protecting civilians from any harm, not policing force that could be bend by morality.

Law is not about good, it's about order. It needs to be about both good/morality and order, but morality should not take precedence over order. A poor person commiting a crime to feed his family should still be convicted - both Edgedancers and Windrunners might let that person go, Skybreakers won't.

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, but those are not punishable by death are they?
Death is far too steep. I mean, even IRL most of the countries already abolished death penalty on moral grounds, so most people considering it immoral by definition.

I would agree with your assertion if punishment for 'unregistered' Surgebinding was not death, but e.g. imprisonment, possibly removal of powers via Bondsmith. To me, even indefinite imprisonment unless they work for you is too much, that is too close to slavery for comfort.

Yes, my point was it's easy to create a law that will make "unregistered" Surgebinding illegal and punishable according to moral standards. Removal of powers is a great idea, without any need of imprisonment. And that in consequence could monopolize Surgebinding within the country (could, but it doesn't have to be like that, yet I'm afraid it would be like that).

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I said immortal as in undying, not immoral. So I do worry about it, because Earth has no one like that to maintain cohesion (and who is their main religious figure on top of that)!

Oh immortal. Hmm. Yeah, I think immoral leaders are worse as they don't change and adapt to new society and standards. I agree.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yes, my point was it's easy to create a law that will make "unregistered" Surgebinding illegal and punishable according to moral standards. Removal of powers is a great idea, without any need of imprisonment. And that in consequence could monopolize Surgebinding within the country (could, but it doesn't have to be like that, yet I'm afraid it would be like that).

Yeah, monopoly on Invested Arts would be an issue.
I guess my point is that while such law could be created, you cannot be certain Skybreakers would enforce it, due their Oaths and specifics of their Orders.

Nale's Skybreakers definitely would though, however they are not necessarily the best example.

Quote

Oh immortal. Hmm. Yeah, I think immoral leaders are worse as they don't change and adapt to new society and standards. I agree.

Indeed.

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

This is our world so what law could they be following that would allow for assassination?

They can literally just make one up, write down a set of guidelines on a piece of paper and swear to follow that.

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

And you're wrong the 2st ideal is to just follow whatever laws are in effect where they are. Then the 3rd ideal is to follow one particular law above all else

No it isn't, the second ideal is the ideal of justice, laws aren't mentioned in it at all.

16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 We have no idea how the 4th idea works you're trying to jump to conclusions.

We do in fact know how it works, they choose a goal to acomplish, some form of personal crusade, and then they do it.

[cometaryorbit]

11 hours ago, Scott Beckman said:

In my opinion, Skybreakers would make a horrifying policing force for what I'd subjectively consider generally upholding good. Their oaths are much more aligned to becoming the perfect gangster, or a highly authoritarian government's policing force such as for communists and fascists—again, subjectivity; they'd uphold law well in such militaristic societies efficiently and mostly unwaveringly, just not my style of what an upholder of justice for civilians should be. Much better for internal affairs or military policing, for example, rather than the public. 

Well, the Skybreakers under Nale are a lot different than what the Order is supposed to be. They are supposed to be about "rule of law", not "kill every criminal".

I do think their policing role in early days - when the Ten Orders were fully functioning and working together - was as internal police for the Radiants themselves more than generic police, though. Probably also the ones who dealt with really powerful people (tyrants and such) too. But not ordinary street crime. Because of numbers if nothing else... even with Oathgates for travel, a couple hundred people (if there were even that many) can't police a supercontinent.

 

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's not like Radiants need to swear to by loyal or something - just make a law that prevents unauthorized Surgebinding, and send a team of Skybreaker to kill everyone who isn't a part of government/company force, Skybreakers were very good at killing Radiants for decades on Roshar. Each country would want to have their own Radiant teams, and they would mostly align with their countries, not one unified Radiant organization.

And yes, Elsecallers in a modern world would be very scary.

The difference is that you had an organized, trained Skybreaker organization, backed by a Herald 5th Ideal Skybreaker, going after rare individual clueless Radiants. Skybreakers aren't inherently more powerful than other Radiants - one Order of Skybreakers couldn't effectively control several Orders with opposing philosophies.

I think it worked in the early days because all Ten Orders were under one system in Urithiru, so rogue Radiants weren't backed by their own Orders.

Are we assuming a number of Radiants large enough that basically every nation could have independent Orders? If the total number of available spren was comparable to what we see on Roshar, that probably wouldn't work.

I'm also not sure that Radiants would automatically remain loyal to their home nations either, depending on what nation that was, their Order, and their personality and their individual spren. I think certain governments/types of government would be pretty incompatible with certain Orders.

Edited May 17, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[bmcclure7]

On 5/17/2023 at 10:47 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Well, the Skybreakers under Nale are a lot different than what the Order is supposed to be. They are supposed to be about "rule of law", not "kill every criminal".

I do think their policing role in early days - when the Ten Orders were fully functioning and working together - was as internal police for the Radiants themselves more than generic police, though. Probably also the ones who dealt with really powerful people (tyrants and such) too. But not ordinary street crime. Because of numbers if nothing else... even with Oathgates for travel, a couple hundred people (if there were even that many) can't police a supercontinent.

 

The difference is that you had an organized, trained Skybreaker organization, backed by a Herald 5th Ideal Skybreaker, going after rare individual clueless Radiants. Skybreakers aren't inherently more powerful than other Radiants - one Order of Skybreakers couldn't effectively control several Orders with opposing philosophies.

I think it worked in the early days because all Ten Orders were under one system in Urithiru, so rogue Radiants weren't backed by their own Orders.

Are we assuming a number of Radiants large enough that basically every nation could have independent Orders? If the total number of available spren was comparable to what we see on Roshar, that probably wouldn't work.

I'm also not sure that Radiants would automatically remain loyal to their home nations either, depending on what nation that was, their Order, and their personality and their individual spren. I think certain governments/types of government would be pretty incompatible with certain Orders.

I'm not sure it seems to me that any government system could work with the oaths as they don't seem to have any political implications well maybe not will shapers but the others should be fine. 

[Telperion]

On 5/16/2023 at 8:06 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 Murder is defined as unlawfully killing someone. Which is not what they were doing they were very careful to always follow the law.

 More importantly as your own definition States has to be someone important politically, For pay or Ideological purposes. The people Lawfully executed by the skybreakers we're all nobody's. 

Got it. So it's lawful to kill "nobody's" and at the least murder. as long as you dictate a law that says that's ok.
I love that logic. I might as well say. I own all of your property because I decided I wanted to.
Just because your Law says it's ok to kill doesn't mean your arent a hitman or assassin. Also, my definition says especially someone important politically, not exclusively someone important politically. And at the time that the Skybreakers were assassinating other Radiants, they were inherently important politically because there were so few of them.

Just because John Wick doesn't have any moral issues or follow a law(s) that hinder his job as an assassin doesn't make him, not an assassin. 

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Telperion said:

Got it. So it's lawful to kill "nobody's" and at the least murder. as long as you dictate a law that says that's ok.
I love that logic. I might as well say. I own all of your property because I decided I wanted to.
Just because your Law says it's ok to kill doesn't mean your arent a hitman or assassin. Also, my definition says especially someone important politically, not exclusively someone important politically. And at the time that the Skybreakers were assassinating other Radiants, they were inherently important politically because there were so few of them.

Just because John Wick doesn't have any moral issues or follow a law(s) that hinder his job as an assassin doesn't make him, not an assassin. 

 You are misunderstanding the point. If I kill a nobody it's not an assassination regardless if it's right or wrong. More importantly by kill someone legally it's also not an assassination. Regardless if it's right or wrong. 

 

Assassin has a meaning,  It's not just a bad person or someone who kills. It's someone who kills someone important illegally. 

 

 The skybreakers were not doing these things. So therefore they were not assassins. You can call them killers if you want but not assassins. 

[Duxredux]

Question, are we assuming that there is still an arbitrator that determines the validity of Oaths? Like how Venli literally couldn't progress in her Oaths until healing her mother? Though Syl did say that the Stormfather could not forbid her in WoR, so who knows how exactly those rules work. If there are still only a handful of these "authenticators of Oaths" and still only 3 Bondsmiths, there may be limits to the diversity of Radiant groups that some people are theorizing among the various nations. Are Oathgates still around, creating a melting pot that selects for Radiants?

I'll also note that spren culture will develop and dictate how these different Ideals are best embodied in people. You will get the outlier spren who has quite different views from the rest, but the decision to bond a Radiant often is not done in isolation among the spren varieties. How the spren and the concepts they embody will evolve in a modern age is a huge discussion by itself.

What we see in SA is a product of all these factors. What is borderline behavior yet acceptible for a Radiant to do in the current Rosharan Era could get slapped down so hard in a modern Era and vice versa. Maybe even what is commonplace could get upended. Dalinar argued pretty heavily against the emancipation of Alethkar's slaves (at least during wartime) and the Stormfather didn't step in. For a Bondsmith to do the same thing in today's society would probably be almost impossible because of how divisive such a stance would be.

I'm hoping we see far more utilization similar to what Dalinar was envisioning while digging a latrine in full Shardbearer kit. Power over the Surges, shape-shifting nigh-indestructable metal that optionally can cut the Realms, and modular telepathically controlled highly resilient metal are what the higher Ideal Radiants will likely always have. Armor and sword is just one application of that, but there is sooooo much more that could be done than what historically was done by the orders of knights literally founded during a seemingly eternal war. Peacetime Roshar without Odium breathing down everyone's necks could be fascinating.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Duxredux
additional thought