Radiants IRL

[Kendelian]

What do you think certain Orders of Knight Radiant would do in our society. Like, Windrunner and Skybreaker police forces and Edgedancer therapy clinics.

[Frustration]

Assassinations become not only viable, but laughably easy to pull off.

I'd imagine every major world leader would either have a bodyguard team made of radiants or be killed within the first few years.

Possibly both.

[alder24]

51 minutes ago, Kendelian said:

What do you think certain Orders of Knight Radiant would do in our society. Like, Windrunner and Skybreaker police forces and Edgedancer therapy clinics.

Well in an utopian society:

Skybreakers - police

Windrunners - UN peacekeeping force, protecting innocent civilians during war time

Truthwatchers - medical clinics and scientists

Edgedancers - fast emergency responders

Lightweavers - mostly artists (they already are artists), but also production of humanitarian aid, production of materials, waste management, construction

Elsecallers - scientists, transportation sector and production of humanitarian aid, production of materials, waste management, construction

Stonewards - construction of buildings and infrastructure (with the assistance of soulcasters).

Dustbringers - no idea, disaster emergency responders? Waste management?

Willshapers - no specific idea as well, transportation and construction

Bondsmiths - politicians

 

But we're far from utopian society. All Surge usage would be capitalized or owned by a government. They would be used primarily as soldiers or methods to gain money. Transformation Surge realistically would be used for profit, a company or a government owning all Soulcasters and just gaining ridiculous amounts of money, while all mining and processing industries would collapse, plunging society into deep poverty.

In case of war they might become a WMD and all rival states would now have a mutually assured destruction doctrine - you send Radiants into my turf, I send them into your.

[The Sibling]

I think that Lightweavers could be really dangerous because they can make you see things, and they can mess with video and stuff. Like a Lightweaver would never get convicted of a crime, could forge documents, trick people into doing stuff for them...

[Kendelian]

53 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Assassinations become not only viable, but laughably easy to pull off.

I'd imagine every major world leader would either have a bodyguard team made of radiants or be killed within the first few years.

Possibly both.

One problem with that is that the Radiants will still be bound by oaths, so Life Before Death would interfere with that

[Frustration]

Just now, Kendelian said:

One problem with that is that the Radiants will still be bound by oaths, so Life Before Death would interfere with that

No it won't, we see Radiants kill and assassinate all the time in SA.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Kendelian said:

What do you think certain Orders of Knight Radiant would do in our society. Like, Windrunner and Skybreaker police forces and Edgedancer therapy clinics.

 Skybreakers more like judges though I think some could be police officers.

 

Windruners have more soldier energy then police officers. But I can still see them as police maybe. 

 

Edge dangers were definitely not being therapy clinics. The whole thing is getting out there going to the people. 

 More likely they would be overseas charity work, And given that Brandon has revealed that they tend to attract the deeply religious, Missionary work as well. 

 

Light weavers, Actors and other performers. Singers and writers.

 True  Watchers, Would be theologians philosophers, journalists, Scientist. Anyone who's profession is based on discovering the concrete absolute truth.

Bondsmiths politicians,  religions, businesses and military leaders. Really any position that can allow them to unite larger numbers of people. 

 Not sure about the other orders I'd have to think about them more. 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Assassinations become not only viable, but laughably easy to pull off.

I'd imagine every major world leader would either have a bodyguard team made of radiants or be killed within the first few years.

Possibly both.

Few orders would allow for assassination. Some of them sure but not all.

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

Few orders would allow for assassination. Some of them sure but not all.

No, basically all of them could.

Windrunners and Edgedancers are probably the ones that would struggle the most, but even they could do it.

[bmcclure7]

Just now, Frustration said:

No, basically all of them could.

Windrunners and Edgedancers are probably the ones that would struggle the most, but even they could do it.

 Kalidin tried to be an assassin,  Look what happened. 

 

Skybreakers literally cannot break the law, making assassin impossible in are current political system. 

Egdedancer could probably only assinate  under specific circumstances.  Making it not a viable profession for them. 

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

 Kalidin tried to be an assassin,  Look what happened. 

Against Amaram where Syl talked him out of it but his powers functioned as normal?

Or against Elhokar where Syl explicately states that the problem is his conflicting oaths to Dalinar and Moash, not any particular action on his part?

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Skybreakers literally cannot break the law, making assassin impossible in are current political system. 

They cannot break the law they swear to, they can easily swear to a religious law, or to the pirate code or any other system. Nothing binds them to the laws of the land they are in unless they swear to be bound in such a way.

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Egdedancer could probably only assinate  under specific circumstances.  Making it not a viable profession for them. 

But they could do it.

[Kendelian]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Against Amaram where Syl talked him out of it but his powers functioned as normal?

Or against Elhokar where Syl explicately states that the problem is his conflicting oaths to Dalinar and Moash, not any particular action on his part?

They cannot break the law they swear to, they can easily swear to a religious law, or to the pirate code or any other system. Nothing binds them to the laws of the land they are in unless they swear to be bound in such a way.

But they could do it.

 

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Kalidin tried to be an assassin,  Look what happened. 

 

Skybreakers literally cannot break the law, making assassin impossible in are current political system. 

Egdedancer could probably only assinate  under specific circumstances.  Making it not a viable profession for them. 

 

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, basically all of them could.

Windrunners and Edgedancers are probably the ones that would struggle the most, but even they could do it.

 

18 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Few orders would allow for assassination. Some of them sure but not all.

I’m not going to quote this whole argument, but one massive flaw with Radiant assassins is the First Ideal, specifically Life before Death. That would directly interfere with killing unless it was required for their oaths or demanded to maintain the general life and/or wellbeing of the many.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Kendelian said:

I’m not going to quote this whole argument, but one massive flaw with Radiant assassins is the First Ideal, specifically Life before Death. That would directly interfere with killing unless it was required for their oaths or demanded to maintain the general life and/or wellbeing of the many.

No, it really doesn't, the oaths mean what the people holding them think they do, so long as the radiant themselves doesn't feel that an assassination violates that oath, it doesn't.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

No, it really doesn't, the oaths mean what the people holding them think they do, so long as the radiant themselves doesn't feel that an assassination violates that oath, it doesn't.

Maybe but  It would take a lot of mental gymnastics, To make it work. You might find 1 or 2 but it wouldn't be something that most of the radiance of these authors do.

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

Maybe but  It would take a lot of mental gymnastics, To make it work. You might find 1 or 2 but it wouldn't be something that most of the radiance of these authors do.

I clearly could, so that's one already, and we have a sample size of what five people?

At the peak some orders had thousands of members.

[alder24]

"Oh no, this bad guy started a brutal war and is threatening to use nukes  - I will protect those who cannot protect themself - I need to assassinate him to end this war and make sure he won't use those nukes and kill even more innocent people."

[Argenti]

All the orders have scenarios in which they could go out of their way to kill one person; some radiants might struggle, but with some basic mental gymnastic, no order couldn't 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Against Amaram where Syl talked him out of it but his powers functioned as normal?

Or against Elhokar where Syl explicately states that the problem is his conflicting oaths to Dalinar and Moash, not any particular action on his part?

They cannot break the law they swear to, they can easily swear to a religious law, or to the pirate code or any other system. Nothing binds them to the laws of the land they are in unless they swear to be bound in such a way.

But they could do it.

 He never went through with killing Amram. His powers could have immediately stopped afterwards for all we know.

 

Didn't Brandon Sanderson say that that only applies to International waters?  I vaguely remember the wab but not the specifics.

 

In any case they unlikely to swear to a pirate code unless already criminals, Criminals are unlikely to become  Skybreakers.

 

Religious law you might have a point, But I'm not sure how many real world religions allow for assassination. Islam did have an order of a  Religious order of assassins,  But I'm not sure how many of the other religions would be so accepting of assassins. 

 In either case we're talking about their profession not something that they would do once.

 I'm sure you could create circumstances where any Order could assassinate someone once.  But to do so continually for money?  How many orders do you think would be comfortable with that. Lightweavers maybe, or the elsecallers  But certainly not all of them. 

 

 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I clearly could, so that's one already, and we have a sample size of what five people?

At the peak some orders had thousands of members.

Could you? I doubt it.   It has to be something you actually believe not to something you say. 

 Kalidin said many times that killing the king was best for the nation,  That it was justified . That in the long term would protect people. 

 

But ultimently he just couldn't believe it, He was saying those things to try to convince himself and it wasn't working.  If he had been more self deluded it might have,  But I can't see that as a norm. 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 He never went through with killing Amram. His powers could have immediately stopped afterwards for all we know.

He never went through with attacking Adolin either, yet Syl could still turn his powers off when he went to do it.

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Didn't Brandon Sanderson say that that only applies to International waters?  I vaguely remember the wab but not the specifics.

The skybreakers under Nale would be okay with the pirate code in international waters, but you could swear exclusively to the code, and then it would always apply

Spoiler

Questioner

Can Skybreakers vow to follow a code of rules some might consider outlaw-ish, like the Pirate Code. Are they obliged to adhere to changes in the law after their vow?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and yes.

What you're running into with what's happening right now, the Skybreakers are under the thumb of someone who has a much more rigid interpretation of what they should do than is necessary for the Order. And so you could totally be a Skybreaker who is not of this group, and this group would not look kindly on something like the Pirate Code necessarily. (Though the Pirate Code kind of works for them, because it's in international waters, so even with the current crop of Skybreakers you could probably argue the Pirate Code, and they'd probably be okay with it.)

But you could have even less, codes that's like, "I'm going to follow the code of the criminal underground. I'm going to follow the Mafia code." Current crop of Skybreakers, that would not fly with them. But in the Order in general, and the way that highspren work, and things like that, you would totally be okay.

Which is kind of dangerous, yes. But you would have to follow the code as the code changes. So that could get you into trouble, also. Skybreakers, they've got an interesting way of going about all this. Hopefully, all the Orders do; that's one of my goals with them.

YouTube Livestream 9 (May 28, 2020)

 

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Religious law you might have a point, But I'm not sure how many real world religions allow for assassination. Islam did have an order of a  Religious order of assassins,  But I'm not sure how many of the other religions would be so accepting of assassins. 

 In either case we're talking about their profession not something that they would do once.

 I'm sure you could create circumstances where any Order could assassinate someone once.  But to do so continually for money?  How many orders do you think would be comfortable with that. Lightweavers maybe, or the elsecallers  But certainly not all of them. 

Who said anything about money or doing it as a proffession?

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

Could you? I doubt it.   It has to be something you actually believe not to something you say. 

 Kalidin said many times that killing the king was best for the nation,  That it was justified . That in the long term would protect people. 

 

But ultimently he just couldn't believe it, He was saying those things to try to convince himself and it wasn't working.  If he had been more self deluded it might have,  But I can't see that as a norm. 

I find no conflict between assassination and the first oath.

[bmcclure7]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

He never went through with attacking Adolin either, yet Syl could still turn his powers off when he went to do it.

The skybreakers under Nale would be okay with the pirate code in international waters, but you could swear exclusively to the code, and then it would always apply

  Hide contents

Questioner

Can Skybreakers vow to follow a code of rules some might consider outlaw-ish, like the Pirate Code. Are they obliged to adhere to changes in the law after their vow?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and yes.

What you're running into with what's happening right now, the Skybreakers are under the thumb of someone who has a much more rigid interpretation of what they should do than is necessary for the Order. And so you could totally be a Skybreaker who is not of this group, and this group would not look kindly on something like the Pirate Code necessarily. (Though the Pirate Code kind of works for them, because it's in international waters, so even with the current crop of Skybreakers you could probably argue the Pirate Code, and they'd probably be okay with it.)

But you could have even less, codes that's like, "I'm going to follow the code of the criminal underground. I'm going to follow the Mafia code." Current crop of Skybreakers, that would not fly with them. But in the Order in general, and the way that highspren work, and things like that, you would totally be okay.

Which is kind of dangerous, yes. But you would have to follow the code as the code changes. So that could get you into trouble, also. Skybreakers, they've got an interesting way of going about all this. Hopefully, all the Orders do; that's one of my goals with them.

YouTube Livestream 9 (May 28, 2020)

 

Who said anything about money or doing it as a proffession?

I find no conflict between assassination and the first oath.

 Read the original prompt we're not looking at what a  Individual knight would do once,   But what role they would play in society overall. 

 

I was thinking about the other oaths Not the 1st oath at all. I do agree with you that it does not conflict the 1st oath. 

 

39 minutes ago, Argenti said:

All the orders have scenarios in which they could go out of their way to kill one person; some radiants might struggle, but with some basic mental gymnastic, no order couldn't 

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

"Oh no, this bad guy started a brutal war and is threatening to use nukes  - I will protect those who cannot protect themself - I need to assassinate him to end this war and make sure he won't use those nukes and kill even more innocent people."

 Again we're talking about the role of the orders in society, Not what 1 member could do once.

 

Sure they might be able to justify killing someone in one individual circumstance. But justify enough to do it as a profession continually for the entire order? 

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Read the original prompt we're not looking at what a  Individual knight would do once,   But what role they would play in society overall. 

 

I was thinking about the other oaths Not the 1st oath at all. I do agree with you that it does not conflict the 1st oath. 

 

 

 Again we're talking about the role of the orders in society, Not what 1 member could do once.

 

Sure they might be able to justify killing someone in one individual circumstance. But justify enough to do it as a profession continually for the entire order? 

Read my original post, it talks about how society must adapt.

And it would not be a sinlge individual.

[bmcclure7]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Read my original post, it talks about how society must adapt.

And it would not be a sinlge individual.

 But that's my point, You might find an individual windrunner  who could justify assassination once without violating his oaths,  I do agree with you there. 

 

But you argument falls down when you try to justify it as being the norm that the Windrunners  Would play in society as a whole.  

 

That implies That you need more than just one individual justfying assassination because someone is evil or something.   You need a lot of people to justify assassination in general,  Not just in a few rare circumstances.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

 But that's my point, You might find an individual windrunner  who could justify assassination once without violating his oaths,  I do agree with you there. 

 

But you argument falls down when you try to justify it as being the norm that the Windrunners  Would play in society as a whole.  

 

That implies That you need more than just one individual justfying assassination because someone is evil or something.   You need a lot of people to justify assassination in general,  Not just in a few rare circumstances.

I never once placed Windrunners as the order, in fact I never pinned it down to a single order, as it would transend all orders. It would be a problem that society must adress.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Again we're talking about the role of the orders in society, Not what 1 member could do once.

Sure they might be able to justify killing someone in one individual circumstance. But justify enough to do it as a profession continually for the entire order? 

Yes, I can see Windrunners as the whole Order flying around the world and killing dictators, tyrants, slave owners and warmongers, just to make sure people won't suffer, to protect those who cannot protect themself. Even more, in the capitalistic world I can see them putting pressure on business owners and governments to force them to increase working and living standards for the people - going beyond Rosharan current way of interpretations of Oaths, evolving into modern era, there are different ways of protecting people after all. Times change, interpretation of Oaths change as well, to fit into society, evolve with society. Skybreakers, Willshapers and Dustbringers are the proof of this on Roshar. Every order would evolve beyond what we see on Roshar. Or even more, Orders would more or less split into different factions, like Skybreakers on Roshar, here they might be divided into individual countries, ideas etc, each believing that their way of interpretation is the correct one.

And I've already said what their roles would be in my first post here.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I clearly could, so that's one already, and we have a sample size of what five people?

Just to go back to it to make a quick point, spren interpretation of Oath is as important or even more important than yours. Even if you believe with all your heart that assassination is the best way to fulfill your Oaths but your spren disagrees, you won't be able to do that - but sprens can be radical, you just need to find a fitting pair.