Moash Redemption Arc??????

[Duxredux]

My take on this kind of the debate from the OP is that I mentally separate whether or not redemption is possible, and what should be done if anyone were to run into Moash as he is now in the story. I do think redemption is available to nearly anyone that truly tries to change. If it were written well, and Moash genuinely tried to become a better person, I would be happy for it, perhaps no less than Dalinar's choice of Third Oath. Same answer for Dalinar, Moash, Szeth, or Amaram.

That said, if anyone from the Coalition side were to run into Moash right now, if they had good odds at besting him, they should take him down as fast as possible. For someone with an Honorblade that basically means either killing them or crippling them with a Shardblade. Moash has set traps, done sneak attacks, murdered the comatose, and killed former friends. He uses living beings as leverage to manipulate people who care about them. Basically in any situation he is in, he puts everyone in his immediate vicinity in mortal peril. His past actions and his abilities severely limit any situation that he can be trusted in. Unless he were to make an appearance showing clear, indisputable, uncontrivable remorse, he should be taken down before he gets the opportunity to hurt anyone else. Any potential he has for redemption should not supersede the necessity for protecting others from someone as deadly as he has proven to be.

Not much of a spoiler, but references Alloy of Law:

Spoiler

It's a similar idea to how Wax will gun down anyone actively shooting people - even more so because Moash has repeatedly proven the lack of boundaries he has on killing and he is incredibly hard to stop short of severing his soul. If he were to show up looking as absolutely torn apart as Wayne was, Honorblade discarded, they should still be incredibly careful and keep him under extremely close supervision. Basically how they handled Szeth. Wayne ended up being closely supervised by Wax for years before Wax left him in charge of Weathering. I'm not a judge, nor do I know Alethi law, so I won't state a punishment that should be administered to one with Moash's dossier.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Duxredux
realized I referenced Alloy of Law in the Stormlight forum

[The Stick]

I think Moash has made every terrible choice possible. Perhaps at the beginning, with the Elhokar murder plot, he had a chance. He did have a somewhat legitimate reason, although it was still wrong. After that, he made every despicable decision possible. However, he has always had this entire idolization of Kaladin. He thinks of the great Kaladin Stormblessed will give up, it gives him justification to give up to. I think the only way for him to be redeemed, which I think Brandon could do is for Kaladin to swear the fifth ideal and then die protecting Moash. Not only does this cleanly finish Kaladin's arc, letting him come to peace with Moash, it also gives Moash a believable reason to seek redemption. Besides this, I think Moash redemption is impossible.

 

[Shard_Blades]

On 4/30/2023 at 0:00 PM, Nogo said:

I'm a vote "no" kind of guy here.  Though of course it is possible, I don't see it.

I don't put Szeth in the same category.  Like at all.  Szeth believed in something and did terrible things based on his "rightous" belief.  Moash is just... well, he's a jerk.

Yes, I completely agree. Szeth had his religions which he thought he had to follow. But with Moash, he's just an idiot. Yes, I would be angry if my grandparents were killed like that too, but I wouldn't go to such extreme measures. 

[JohnnyKaizen]

7 hours ago, Shard_Blades said:

Yes, I completely agree. Szeth had his religions which he thought he had to follow. But with Moash, he's just an idiot. Yes, I would be angry if my grandparents were killed like that too, but I wouldn't go to such extreme measures. 

I mean, his family was murdered..he went to seek some kind of justice, was enslaved, abused..nearly killed multiple times a week, for months on end (all while the prevailing opinion amongst the army was that it was "best for everyone else" that he be live bait). After all that..I don't know what measures I would or wouldn't go to. I say that because my mental limits have changed multiple times throughout my life, as I assume they will many times more, in the future.

It seems to me that one of the tropes that BS used with Bridge 4 was the Joker's "All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day" which for one thing, isn't true. Clearly the heralds had thousands of those "bad days" before their minds broke, and everyone else in Bridge 4 came out of hundreds of bad days without breaking the way Moash did. But for me, I will always be extremely hesitant to claim what I would or wouldn't do under extreme torturous situations (like what Moash went through) because the more life I live, the less confident I am that I know what I would do if/when my mind broke.

That's why I'm so ademament that Moash could be redeemed, even though he most likely won't. It is very easy to look at the rest of Bridge 4 and say, "See, they're all doing fine and didn't murder their friends and the innocent!" And, while that is true, Moash is an extremely damaged person. The Heralds did a noble thing, beyond nearly all acts of heroism described in the SA to date..but I also expect that we are going to hear of some nasty, nasty things that the Heralds have done since they broke, in the back 5 of SA. None of that takes away from the monstrous person that Moash has chosen to be. If I was a Radiant in the Coalition Army, and came across Moash..I'd do my best to kill him, because he is a clear and present enemy. If I disarmed and disabled him, I'd certainly take him as a prisoner if possible. It it were not for whatever reason, then he probably should be executed there. That, in and of itself, is a pretty horrible thing. War is a horrible thing, full of horrible actions. Sanderson is doing a really good job at articulating that. 

[Letryx13]

On 6/8/2023 at 10:46 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

I mean, his family was murdered..he went to seek some kind of justice, was enslaved, abused..nearly killed multiple times a week, for months on end (all while the prevailing opinion amongst the army was that it was "best for everyone else" that he be live bait). After all that..I don't know what measures I would or wouldn't go to. I say that because my mental limits have changed multiple times throughout my life, as I assume they will many times more, in the future.

It seems to me that one of the tropes that BS used with Bridge 4 was the Joker's "All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day" which for one thing, isn't true. Clearly the heralds had thousands of those "bad days" before their minds broke, and everyone else in Bridge 4 came out of hundreds of bad days without breaking the way Moash did. But for me, I will always be extremely hesitant to claim what I would or wouldn't do under extreme torturous situations (like what Moash went through) because the more life I live, the less confident I am that I know what I would do if/when my mind broke.

That's why I'm so ademament that Moash could be redeemed, even though he most likely won't. It is very easy to look at the rest of Bridge 4 and say, "See, they're all doing fine and didn't murder their friends and the innocent!" And, while that is true, Moash is an extremely damaged person. The Heralds did a noble thing, beyond nearly all acts of heroism described in the SA to date..but I also expect that we are going to hear of some nasty, nasty things that the Heralds have done since they broke, in the back 5 of SA. None of that takes away from the monstrous person that Moash has chosen to be. If I was a Radiant in the Coalition Army, and came across Moash..I'd do my best to kill him, because he is a clear and present enemy. If I disarmed and disabled him, I'd certainly take him as a prisoner if possible. It it were not for whatever reason, then he probably should be executed there. That, in and of itself, is a pretty horrible thing. War is a horrible thing, full of horrible actions. Sanderson is doing a really good job at articulating that. 

The problem with that argument is that the members of Bridge 4 were all extremely damaged, except for maybe Lopen.  Rock acknowledged that he wanted to die, Kaladin almost threw himself into the chasms, and Teft still hated himself for what happened to his family because of him.  On top of that, Moash was already planning on how to kill Elhokar before he got put in the bridge crews.

As for Moash's grandparents, the truth of the matter is, we still have absolutely no idea how exactly they died.  We do not know that they were murdered.  While it's certainly possible that the conditions of the Kholinar dungeons could have contributed to their deaths, at 75 years old, it's entirely possible, and not unlikely, that they died of natural causes. The prison in Dalinar's war camp, the only actual Alethi prison we've seen, wasn't exactly inhumane.  And it's not unreasonable to assume that the Kholinar dungeons were similar.  Moreover, there's no proof that they were guilty or innocent of the crime they were accused of.  Would Moash's actions still be so justified if his grandparents were guilty of what they'd been accused of?  Would Moash even care?

The heralds situation is a little more complicated.  It's one thing for someone to act out of vengeance, it's another when they're not mentally stable. Believe me, Nalan is a herald I would love to have words with about some of the stuff he's pulled, but that much torture changes who a person is, without that person choosing to change.  And that's not even considering whatever supernatural element might be involved in their insanity, if Dalinar is correct.  Whatever horrors Moash went through in the bridge crews, and like you I don't belittle those horrors, he came to the shattered plains with the specific intention of getting a shard blade to get revenge.  And as we see with Kaladin, a desire for revenge can change a person as much as anything.   The heralds minds are broken, and while Moash certainly was broken by the bridge crews, Moash himself admits that Kaladin re-forged him before he threw everything away.

Having said all of that, I don't disagree with your assessment of the idea that anyone could be pushed to such actions, under the right (or wrong) circumstances.  Kaladin once described the bridgemen as like animals, that morals couldn't apply to someone who'd been beaten down so badly, showing that pretty much anyone can be reduced to such a state.  And I don't disagree with your point about war.  War isn't about glory.  It's death, destruction, and pain without end.  It's a necessary evil at times, and evil changes people.

[Jn819]

12 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

The problem with that argument is that the members of Bridge 4 were all extremely damaged, except for maybe Lopen.  Rock acknowledged that he wanted to die, Kaladin almost threw himself into the chasms, and Teft still hated himself for what happened to his family because of him.  On top of that, Moash was already planning on how to kill Elhokar before he got put in the bridge crews.

Rock did take a form of revenge, as Moash sought to do. It's why he was sent to the bridge crews. (If you don't remember what I'm referring to, it's in the chapter of WoK titled "Many Uses.") In fact, he took basically all the revenge he could given his conviction that fighting is "beneath" him. Kaladin also caused a lot of problems seeking vengeance until he saw a form of justice served. Teft also caused some problems with his self-hatred (though as it was directed internally, the harm he did was mostly to himself). The primary difference is that they've been redeemed already.

12 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

As for Moash's grandparents, the truth of the matter is, we still have absolutely no idea how exactly they died.  We do not know that they were murdered.  While it's certainly possible that the conditions of the Kholinar dungeons could have contributed to their deaths, at 75 years old, it's entirely possible, and not unlikely, that they died of natural causes. The prison in Dalinar's war camp, the only actual Alethi prison we've seen, wasn't exactly inhumane.  And it's not unreasonable to assume that the Kholinar dungeons were similar.  Moreover, there's no proof that they were guilty or innocent of the crime they were accused of.  Would Moash's actions still be so justified if his grandparents were guilty of what they'd been accused of?  Would Moash even care?

I think Brandon was trying to make it as clear as possible (especially with how Dalinar discussed it) that they definitely were innocent and they definitely died because of their imprisonment. That said, no, Moash probably wouldn't care.

12 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

The heralds situation is a little more complicated.  It's one thing for someone to act out of vengeance, it's another when they're not mentally stable.

Sorry, this sounds like you're describing Moash as mentally stable. I guess maybe in SA 1 + 2 he was, but even in OB he was already deteriorating.

12 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Believe me, Nalan is a herald I would love to have words with about some of the stuff he's pulled, but that much torture changes who a person is, without that person choosing to change.

The mistakes Moash made while mostly stable were at least as justified from his perspective as anything Nale did. Especially since he had people talking him into it.

As for torture, it takes many forms. How many stories feature someone resisting serious torture to themselves, only to submit as soon as their loved ones are tortured? The suffering of your loved ones (like Moash's grandparents) can be worse than experiencing the same yourself.

13 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Whatever horrors Moash went through in the bridge crews, and like you I don't belittle those horrors, he came to the shattered plains with the specific intention of getting a shard blade to get revenge.  And as we see with Kaladin, a desire for revenge can change a person as much as anything.   The heralds minds are broken, and while Moash certainly was broken by the bridge crews, Moash himself admits that Kaladin re-forged him before he threw everything away.

Yeah, I think the bridge crew (once Kaladin took over) was enough of a mixed bag not to be relevant to this discussion.

13 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Having said all of that, I don't disagree with your assessment of the idea that anyone could be pushed to such actions, under the right (or wrong) circumstances.  Kaladin once described the bridgemen as like animals, that morals couldn't apply to someone who'd been beaten down so badly, showing that pretty much anyone can be reduced to such a state.  And I don't disagree with your point about war.  War isn't about glory.  It's death, destruction, and pain without end.  It's a necessary evil at times, and evil changes people.

Definitely agree with most of that. Brandon is very good at giving characters a reason for their actions. Even Sadeas is basically a conquest addict driven mad by withdrawal (among other things). That said, it would take a lot to write a realistic redemption of Moash.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

Here's my take.

At the end of book five, Kaladin will die indirectly by some sort of decision of Moash's. Moash will be redeemed just before that and, filled with regret, will leave and become a hermit. THEN in the back half, Moash will become either a Gandalf sort of character or will be like Dalinar. I can see Moash being a key part in winning at the end of Stormlight. After he becomes a hermit in this alternate reality, he could encounter a grown Gavinor and explain himself to him. Gavinor could almost kill him and then decide not to. (This could alternately happen in Stormlight five with Gavinor being Odium's champion and murdering Moash right then and there. And then right after that fight Kaladin and kill him too.)

Moash has the potential to have an awesome redemption, considering the way Brandon has written him thus far. I actually want a redemption for him. But that doesn't mean I don't hate him. I absolutely despise him for killing my boy Teft. But, redemption is in the cards, I think. 

A lot of things could happen is all I'm saying here.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

Rock did take a form of revenge, as Moash sought to do. It's why he was sent to the bridge crews. (If you don't remember what I'm referring to, it's in the chapter of WoK titled "Many Uses.") In fact, he took basically all the revenge he could given his conviction that fighting is "beneath" him. Kaladin also caused a lot of problems seeking vengeance until he saw a form of justice served. Teft also caused some problems with his self-hatred (though as it was directed internally, the harm he did was mostly to himself). The primary difference is that they've been redeemed already.

I doubt many people who've read or listened to WoK could forget exactly what got Rock thrown in the bridge crews.  But putting chull dung in someone's food and murdering someone are slightly different.  As for Kaladin, this is exactly my point.  His single-mindedness in seeking revenge against Amaram and Elhokar was what nearly cost him his bond with Syl.  As Kaladin and Syl discuss later, Kaladin knew allowing the assassination was wrong; he was just so angry and Elhokar that he didn't care anymore.  Mental instability isn't what drove him, anger and hatred did.  But with a little help, they all managed to pull themselves out of it.  

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

I think Brandon was trying to make it as clear as possible (especially with how Dalinar discussed it) that they definitely were innocent and they definitely died because of their imprisonment. That said, no, Moash probably wouldn't care.

Considering how good Sanderson is at turning assumptions around in stories, such as the true identities of the VoidBringers not once but twice, I can't agree with that.  Sanderson makes it seem like the couple died because of the imprisonment, but despite the subject coming up twice, we still don't know their cause of death.  And the wording about the circumstances is just a little too careful for me to accept that there's not something more to it.  It would have been extremely simple for Moash or Dalinar to add in a throwaway line about how they'd been stabbed by other prisoners or died of some disease or something.  And while I admit it's a little less vague about their guilt or innocence, considering Rashone was punished for their deaths, we don't even know what they were accused of, let alone any certainty about their guilt or innocence. The set up is just too perfect for me to believe that it's a coincidence.  There's just enough wiggle room that I'm certain this is going to be a plot twist in book 5.

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

Sorry, this sounds like you're describing Moash as mentally stable. I guess maybe in SA 1 + 2 he was, but even in OB he was already deteriorating.

I do consider Moash to be mentally stable, at least until Odium get's ahold of him.  The guilt was starting to eat at him a little at the start of Oathbringer, but he rationalized his behavior away as soon as it was convenient for him. Whatever he was dealing with, it was nowhere near what the heralds have had to deal with.

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

The mistakes Moash made while mostly stable were at least as justified from his perspective as anything Nale did. Especially since he had people talking him into it.

Nale's mind is unhinged from centuries of torture, it's not a reasonable comparison.  And there's at least some objective justification to siding with the Singers in the war.  Roshar originally belonged to them, after all.  I'd still like to knock his teeth in for what he did to that street urchin in Yedaw, but that's a different subject.

Moash intended to kill Elhokar from the start; nobody had to talk him into anything, even if the rope assassination attempt wasn't his idea.  He explicitly tells Kaldin that was why he came to the shattered plains in the first place.

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

As for torture, it takes many forms. How many stories feature someone resisting serious torture to themselves, only to submit as soon as their loved ones are tortured? The suffering of your loved ones (like Moash's grandparents) can be worse than experiencing the same yourself.

Admittedly, psychological torture can be severe.  But there are other ways to deal with that, even on a world like Roshar.  Rashone may not have been imprisoned for what he did, but he was exiled, so some justice was applied. Not enough, in my opinion, but as Dalinar points out, the situation is more complicated than that. 

On the other hand, if the people Moash cares about are so important to him, why was he willing to turn on Kaladin so easily?  A man who had pulled him out of damnation, a man who had given him a blade and plate worth a king's ransom, a man Moash said he would never outrank?  Moash was willing to kill Kaladin to get his revenge.  He turned on his savior as soon as that savior was inconvenient for him.

17 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Here's my take.

At the end of book five, Kaladin will die indirectly by some sort of decision of Moash's. Moash will be redeemed just before that and, filled with regret, will leave and become a hermit. THEN in the back half, Moash will become either a Gandalf sort of character or will be like Dalinar. I can see Moash being a key part in winning at the end of Stormlight. After he becomes a hermit in this alternate reality, he could encounter a grown Gavinor and explain himself to him. Gavinor could almost kill him and then decide not to. (This could alternately happen in Stormlight five with Gavinor being Odium's champion and murdering Moash right then and there. And then right after that fight Kaladin and kill him too.)

Moash has the potential to have an awesome redemption, considering the way Brandon has written him thus far. I actually want a redemption for him. But that doesn't mean I don't hate him. I absolutely despise him for killing my boy Teft. But, redemption is in the cards, I think. 

A lot of things could happen is all I'm saying here.

I admit, Moash somehow turning around and managing to make the difference in taking down Odium is pretty much the only thing I can think of that could redeem him.  I just don't see it happening.  I don't believe his is sorry for what he's done, and he refuses to see himself for the monster that he is, even when free of Odium's control.  I think that's why stormlight doesn't heal his eyes. Unless someone can admit to their mistakes, there's no hope for redemption.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Letryx13
Incomplete

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 5/21/2023 at 3:09 PM, Treamayne said:

Technically, Dalinar acknowledged culpability as soon as he realized what had happened at the Rift. His alcoholism wasn't as much denial as it was avoidance

He blames Evi and insists he doesn't feel bad about her for years afterwards. OB 88:

Quote

When was he going to escape this? He was becoming a coward! Nightmares when he tried to sleep. Weeping in his mind whenever he saw fire. Storms take Evi for doing this to him! If she’d acted like an adult instead of a child—if she’d been able to face duty or just reality for once—she wouldn’t have gotten herself killed.

...

“Your father never adjusted to being alone, Adolin,” the king replied. “He misses your mother.”

Idiots, Dalinar thought. He didn’t miss Evi. He wanted to be rid of her.

Though … he did ache now that she was gone. Was that why she wept for him so often?

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Quote

Technically, Dalinar acknowledged culpability as soon as he realized what had happened at the Rift. His alcoholism wasn't as much denial as it was avoidance

He blames Evi and insists he doesn't feel bad about her for years afterwards. OB 88:

Spoiler

When was he going to escape this? He was becoming a coward! Nightmares when he tried to sleep. Weeping in his mind whenever he saw fire. Storms take Evi for doing this to him! If she’d acted like an adult instead of a child—if she’d been able to face duty or just reality for once—she wouldn’t have gotten herself killed.

...

“Your father never adjusted to being alone, Adolin,” the king replied. “He misses your mother.”

Idiots, Dalinar thought. He didn’t miss Evi. He wanted to be rid of her.

Though … he did ache now that she was gone. Was that why she wept for him so often?

 

Precisely my point.

On 5/19/2023 at 11:40 AM, Treamayne said:

Neither Dalinar's nor Moash's actions were "acceptable;" and, to me, comparing them is pointless since the sliding scale of morality will point differently for each of us (based on background, religion, personal belief, etc.). However, I think the main difference is:

• For Dalinar we saw how his guilt wrecked and nearly destroyed his life, his relationships with family and friends and his health. While he sought Shardic intervention to free him from his guilty conscience, he used that second chance to become better (and therefore "earned" his redemption)
• For Moash we saw the beginnings of his guilty feelings at the end of WoR (when he removed the Bridge Four patch) and as his actions and guilty feelings began to destroy his life - he too sought Shardic intervention for his guilty conscience. However, so far he has only used that second chance to slide further down the morality scale. He hasn't yet recognized a need for redemption, much less decided to start trying to improve.

Will Moash get a redemption arc?

I doubt it - if only because I don't think he would let himself take that path (other than possibly a "redemption by self-sacrifice-death").

OB Ch 76:

Spoiler

Dalinar seized him by the chin, though the man was still held by his soldiers. “What?”

“She came to us,” Tanalan said. “To plead. How could you have missed her? Do you track your own family so poorly? The hole you burned … we don’t hide there anymore. Everyone knows about it. Now it’s a prison.”

Ice washed through Dalinar, and he grabbed Tanalan by the throat and held, Oathbringer slipping from his fingers. He strangled the man, all the while demanding that he retract what he’d said.

Tanalan died with a smile on his lips. Dalinar stepped back, suddenly feeling too weak to stand. Where was the Thrill to bolster him? “Go back,” he shouted at his elites. “Search that hole. Go…” He trailed off.

Kadash was on his knees, looking woozy, a pile of vomit on the rock before him. Some elites ran to try to do as Dalinar said, but they shied away from the Rift—the heat rising from the burning city was incredible.

Dalinar roared, standing, pushing toward the flames. However, the fire was too intense. Where he had once seen himself as an unstoppable force, he now had to admit exactly how small he was. Insignificant. Meaningless.

Once it’s gone feral, you can’t just whistle it back to you.

He fell to his knees, and remained there until his soldiers pulled him—limp—away from the heat and carried him to his camp.

Followed only hours later by rationalizations:

Spoiler

He stepped forward, resting his fingers on the smooth, too-white sheet. Fool woman. The scribes didn’t know Evi well enough. She hadn’t been a traitor—she’d gone to the Rift to plead for them to surrender. She’d seen in Dalinar’s eyes that he wouldn’t spare them. So, Almighty help her, she’d gone to do what she could.

Dalinar barely had the strength to stand. The Thrill had abandoned him, and that left him broken, pained.

He pulled back the corner of the sheet. The left side of Evi’s face was scorched, nauseating, but the right side had been down toward the stone. It was oddly untouched.

This is your fault, he thought at her. How dare you do this? Stupid, frustrating woman.

Followed shortly by Pragmatism:

Spoiler

“She didn’t betray us,” Dalinar said firmly.

“I’m sure eventually we’ll know what—”

“She did not betray us,” Dalinar snapped. “Keep the discovery of her body quiet, Kalami. Tell the people … tell them my wife was slain by an assassin last night. I will swear the few elites who know to secrecy. Let everyone think she died a hero, and that the destruction of the city today was done in retribution.”

Dalinar set his jaw. Earlier today, the soldiers of his army—so carefully trained over the years to resist pillaging and the slaughter of civilians—had burned a city to the ground. It would ease their consciences to think that first, the highlady had been murdered.

Kalami smiled at him, a knowing—even self-important—smile. His lie would serve a second purpose. As long as Kalami and the head scribes thought they knew a secret, they’d be less likely to dig for the true answer.

And shown in the flashback you quoted (three years after this flashback) that his attempts at repressions have nearly destroyed his life and family relationships. Until he sought the Nightwatcher and actually used his second chance to change for the better.

The fact that in each flashback until the Nigthwatcher he is hearing Evi's screams shows that he feels the guilt and uses the alcohol to drown those feelings and phantom screams (as opposed to denying the guilt in the first place)

Edited June 12, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarification / SPAG

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Precisely my point.

My bad then, must have conflated your arguments with someone else's.

[Treamayne]

I edited my response to try hopefully being more clear. Also, your first post only quoted the second half of my original point (so I added the first half to my response above).

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

My bad then, must have conflated your arguments with someone else's.

My original point was that there is a difference, psychologically, between internally feeling guilt/remorse and attempting to repress those feelings (usually with drugs/alcohol/violence but also other repression mechanisms) and not feeling the guilt/remorse for your actions (and instead only regretting the consequences of those actions). Your quote of Ch 88 shows the repressions, but lacks the context of the Ch 76 quote showing him immediately realize his mistake has killed his wife (followed by lashing out in Violence against Tanalan for being the messenger, followed by "shifting the blame", followed by pragmatic repressions - all in a few hours; which then provides the context for how he feels guilty [hearing screams] and drinks to avoid hearing them). His rational mind really wants to shift the blame, but he can't so he drinks to cover the internal shame instead.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

On 4/17/2023 at 0:53 PM, That1Cellist said:

 

I think that he can become better, however, I also think that nobody really wants to see that. We're all pretty mad at him.

 

 

Words of unfortunate wisdom

[Elder]

Something that came up on Facebook on this subject:

Other than killing Teft, (which was for the benefit of breaking Kaladin), Moash’s more personal killings, Elhokar and Roshone, both happened as those two were in the process of changing.  Elhokar just as he was about to achieve Radiance, Roshone as he was rather poetically trying to free prisoners.  Many, myself included, can empathize with these killings, and as such are more lenient about them.  I’m far more upset by killing Teft and Phendorana and the attempts to drive Kaladin to Suicide.  This may be a rather counterproductive mistake. 

Moash’s key flaw is his refusal to believe that people, especially himself, can change.  It may very well be that in order to accept his ability to change, he’ll have to acknowledge Elhokar and Roshone’s ability to change.  That they were in fact changing. This is going to hurt.  A lot.  This isn’t just guilt.  This is humility directed toward people who wronged him grievously.  I’ll admit I’m not sure I’d be up for that challenge.

If explored, this arc could bring in a particular Dawnshard, thinking about it.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Elder