Moash Redemption Arc??????

[The Stick]

I want to know if anybody thinks a Moash redemption arc is in the cards and if so how it would happen. I think after his blinding with Tower light he has a chance if he comes to peace with his demons.

 

[That1Cellist]

I think that he can become better, however, I also think that nobody really wants to see that. We're all pretty mad at him.

Either way he has to answer for his crimes and attempted crimes, meaning that any redemption would likely lead to him being outcast from everyone else, if not outright executed. You can't just kill Teft and then go "Hehe I'm good again!" So I think that if he does get redeemed, he'll either die very soon after, or live as some sort of hermit.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

55 minutes ago, That1Cellist said:

I think that he can become better, however, I also think that nobody really wants to see that. We're all pretty mad at him.

Either way he has to answer for his crimes and attempted crimes, meaning that any redemption would likely lead to him being outcast from everyone else, if not outright executed. You can't just kill Teft and then go "Hehe I'm good again!" So I think that if he does get redeemed, he'll either die very soon after, or live as some sort of hermit.

I agree… and I also want him to rot in Braize for eternity. 
 

And yet.
 

And yet, I can’t ignore the precedent set by Szeth. He killed a LOT of people, many of them known or close to Team Radiant. And yet there he is, accepted seemingly to Team Radiant w/o too much fuss

i don’t want it, but I won’t rule it out until book 10 is…in the books. Or Moash does before then in some way that would 100% preclude his return. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, The Stick said:

I want to know if anybody thinks a Moash redemption arc is in the cards and if so how it would happen. I think after his blinding with Tower light he has a chance if he comes to peace with his demons.

You may want to read this thread. While the OP was not specifically about a redemption arc, much of the conversation over all three pages were about that topic. 

[JohnnyKaizen]

I am honestly confused by how definitively some folks are about how Moash is beyond redemption. Several main characters have done some nasty, monstrous things and are now "heros" of Roshar. Moash is damaged, and ROdium took advantage of (and probably orchestrated much of that damage and pain) Moash's suffering and told him, I can make you not feel those horrors anymore. I can make you feel better. And, so instead of facing the consequences of his selfish actions, he let Odium numb him. 

Kaladin has given into his depression multiple times. Dalinar has literally murdered thousands (if not tens of thousands) with his own hand. Jasnah will literally have anyone assassinated if she feels its the best move, and the list goes on.

If there is one truth on Roshar, it's that literally anyone can be redeemed if they choose to take the steps towards redemption.

I despise Moash at the moment. I think he's a selfish coward. He will probably get even worse. If he gets better though..I would welcome it. His betrayal causes SO much pain to SO many characters that I love. If there is a chance to make that better for them, why would I be angry about it? That doesn't make any sense to me.

All that said, I don't currently see a way back for Moash. He is the Walter White of Roshar. At every crossroads of decision, where he could choose to make things better or make things worse..he has choosen "make things worse" every single time, and he has made that choice while blaming everyone and everything around him. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen

[Letryx13]

This topic was another good one that explored his potential redemption. Personally, I think it's extremely unlikely.  Renarin's interlude with Taravangian brings up the idea that no one is completely beyond saving, which is a reasonable belief, but given what he's done, and the fact that it's specifically stated that Moash is not sorry for what he's done, it's a huge longshot.

The big question is, what could he possibly do to redeem himself after everything he's done? Somehow growing a conscience and playing a key role in defeating Odium is about the only thing I can think of, and it's hard to imagine that happening.

18 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I agree… and I also want him to rot in Braize for eternity.

Immortality to have to face what he's done and lost forever would be a fitting punishment in my book.  Brandon repeatedly emphasizes the idea that living is harder than dying. 

 

[Elder]

I think it’s possible, but he’d actually have to want it. Right now, he doesn’t. Even blinded, he’d rather numb himself to his guilt than face it and fix it.

[Spearguy]

Not in this lifetime no, but redemption is a key part of the stormlight archive. Dalinar, Venli, Szeth, and so many others have gone through major character turnarounds. In reality the only difference is whether or when the time comes do they chose to do what is right or what is easy. For every Dalinar constantly trying to become there are equally as many like Sadeas and Amaram who continue to be selfish right until the very end. 

I would say that if Moash is alive by the end of KoW then he will undergo some sort of redemption in the back half of stormlight.

[AquaRegia]

1 hour ago, Spearguy said:

redemption is a key part of the stormlight archive.

Well said.  I don't believe anyone is ever beyond redemption, and I think Brandon feels the same way.  Where there is life, there is hope; all it takes is making different choices.  He may keep making the easy choices... but Brandon has shown us MANY examples of characters coming back from the "dark side".

[LuckyJim]

Could it happen? Absolutely, Moash is a fictional character after all. He'll be whatever he's written to be.

Should it happen? I would argue yes, I think it opens up a lot of interesting story telling opportunities, chances to explore the themes of the series and play with viewpoints on the world and the evolving dynamics as things continue to change.

Will it happen? I highly doubt it. It kind of feels like Brandon has always written Moash to be a jerk, even back in WoK when he was Kaladin's buddy. I don't expect him to move the character beyond audience hate sink.

[Nogo]

I'm a vote "no" kind of guy here.  Though of course it is possible, I don't see it.

On 4/17/2023 at 3:52 PM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

And yet, I can’t ignore the precedent set by Szeth. He killed a LOT of people, many of them known or close to Team Radiant. And yet there he is, accepted seemingly to Team Radiant w/o too much fuss 

I don't put Szeth in the same category.  Like at all.  Szeth believed in something and did terrible things based on his "rightous" belief.  Moash is just... well, he's a jerk.

[The Sibling]

I think that Moash could probably be redeemed. the problem is that for him to have a redemption ark he would probably need a character such as Kaladin or Dalinar to show him the way. And I don't believe Kaladin could manage to be around Moash for long enough to redeem him without murdering him to avenge Teft. kaladin swore to protect even those he hates, but I think that if he was tasked with protecting/healing Moash it might be too much for him.

[Beodrakis]

On 4/17/2023 at 4:52 PM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I agree… and I also want him to rot in Braize for eternity. 
 

And yet.
 

And yet, I can’t ignore the precedent set by Szeth. He killed a LOT of people, many of them known or close to Team Radiant. And yet there he is, accepted seemingly to Team Radiant w/o too much fuss

i don’t want it, but I won’t rule it out until book 10 is…in the books. Or Moash does before then in some way that would 100% preclude his return. 

Szeth murdered for the oathstone, he "lied" about the return of the radiants, and this was his punishment. Justice, a messed up justice Szeth was willing to die for, this exemplified the Skybreaker ideals. Moash on the other hand caved in, wasn't strong enough, and walked on over to Odium, took a Voidbringer name, and started murdering Heralds, and attacking Windrunners, there is no coming back for him.

[Letryx13]

On 4/29/2023 at 10:00 PM, Nogo said:

I don't put Szeth in the same category.  Like at all.  Szeth believed in something and did terrible things based on his "rightous" belief.  Moash is just... well, he's a jerk.

Agreed. Simply put, Szeth was misguided and Moash is selfish.

[Elder]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:01 AM, Letryx13 said:

Agreed. Simply put, Szeth was misguided and Moash is selfish.

Szeth never tried to justify himself murders.  Never tried to numb himself to the suffering he caused.  Closest he got was believing his  murders were his fault for being Truthless.  Losing that excuse broke him.

[Nogo]

I just started RoW again and was reading very carefully during the Moash / Kaladin exchange at Hearthstone.   Moash is a straight up cremhole to Kaladin.  Kaladin, someone Moash seems to idolize, like, and respect.  I read it over a couple times and I can't get over the emotional jabs and just hurtful things he says to Kaladin while, at the same time, being completely emotionally in control and also before the 9 (or Odium, I don't remember which) decide to play mind games with Kaladin in the tower.  Moash hurt Kaladin just because.

Moash = sociopath

Which means there's no (relatively) hope for revival because he doesn't have the empathy / compassion to even start down that path.  Murder is one thing... intentionally exacerbating your friend's mental illness, well that's a whole nother level of evil in my book.

[Elder]

46 minutes ago, Nogo said:

I just started RoW again and was reading very carefully during the Moash / Kaladin exchange at Hearthstone.   Moash is a straight up cremhole to Kaladin.  Kaladin, someone Moash seems to idolize, like, and respect.  I read it over a couple times and I can't get over the emotional jabs and just hurtful things he says to Kaladin while, at the same time, being completely emotionally in control and also before the 9 (or Odium, I don't remember which) decide to play mind games with Kaladin in the tower.  Moash hurt Kaladin just because.

Moash = sociopath

Which means there's no (relatively) hope for revival because he doesn't have the empathy / compassion to even start down that path.  Murder is one thing... intentionally exacerbating your friend's mental illness, well that's a whole nother level of evil in my book.

Moash, with encouragement from Odium, has convinced himself that no one could possibly do or be better than he has.  The problem is, Kaladin proves this idea wrong regularly.  Moash has to eliminate Kaladin so he can keep deluding himself.  Sad really.

[Letryx13]

13 hours ago, Elder said:

Szeth never tried to justify himself murders.  Never tried to numb himself to the suffering he caused.  Closest he got was believing his  murders were his fault for being Truthless.  Losing that excuse broke him.

I don't think he's "lost" that excuse, exactly.  I think he still blames the murders on the people of Shinovar who called him a Truthless.  But I'd bet good money that it's something that's going to be explored in book 5.  Kaladin called him out on it in their fight at the end of WoR, and since they're both going to Shinovar in book 5, Szeth's responsibility for his actions is almost certainly going to come up.

When he finally believed he wasn't Truthless, he stopped holding to the idea that he had to hold to the rules of a Truthless.  He'd wanted to die for a good while before then, he just finally beleived he could honorably allow himself to die.

12 hours ago, Nogo said:

I just started RoW again and was reading very carefully during the Moash / Kaladin exchange at Hearthstone.   Moash is a straight up cremhole to Kaladin.  Kaladin, someone Moash seems to idolize, like, and respect.  I read it over a couple times and I can't get over the emotional jabs and just hurtful things he says to Kaladin while, at the same time, being completely emotionally in control and also before the 9 (or Odium, I don't remember which) decide to play mind games with Kaladin in the tower.  Moash hurt Kaladin just because.

Moash = sociopath

Which means there's no (relatively) hope for revival because he doesn't have the empathy / compassion to even start down that path.  Murder is one thing... intentionally exacerbating your friend's mental illness, well that's a whole nother level of evil in my book.

 

11 hours ago, Elder said:

Moash, with encouragement from Odium, has convinced himself that no one could possibly do or be better than he has.  The problem is, Kaladin proves this idea wrong regularly.  Moash has to eliminate Kaladin so he can keep deluding himself.  Sad really.

Answering both above quotes.  I think it's more that Moash wants Kaladin to give up to justify his own giving up.  Kaladin is someone that Moash respects and admires, even now.  In Moash's mind, if even someone as great as Kaladin quits, then it's ok that he did too.  He's trying to rationalize all the terrible things he's done.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Letryx13
Misspelling

[JohnnyKaizen]

13 hours ago, Nogo said:

Moash hurt Kaladin just because.

Moash = sociopath

I just finished a re-read of RoW, and I believe there's more to it. There is a common theme between Moash and Kaladin, and Dalinar and Taravangian. 

They both go about life in diametrically opposite ways. And for some reason, there is a spoken need (By Moash and by Dalinar) to prove to the other person that their way of doing things is the right way. For Moash, I think he wants to justify his desire for ever-expanding revenge, while claiming the moral high ground. Kaladin faced the same traumas that Moash did, but he choose the path of Honor while Moash has only ever wanted revenge. He feels a need to make Kaladin admit that he was right in his choice to betray. That it was the only path.

Dalinar feels a deep need to prove to Taravangian that his way of saving Roshar is the better way. Though with them, I'm not particularly looking forward to how that plays out.

Edited May 4, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I just finished a re-read of RoW, and I believe there's more to it. There is a common theme between Moash and Kaladin, and Dalinar and Taravangian. 

They both go about life in diametrically opposite ways. And for some reason, there is a spoken need (By Moash and by Dalinar) to prove to the other person that their way of doing things is the right way. For Moash, I think he wants to justify his desire for ever-expanding revenge, while claiming the moral high ground. Kaladin faced the same traumas that Moash did, but he choose the path of Honor while Moash has only ever wanted revenge. He feels a need to make Kaladin admit that he was right in his choice to betray. That it was the only path.

Dalinar feels a deep need to prove to Taravangian that his way of saving Roshar is the better way. Though with them, I'm not particularly looking forward to how that plays out.

Hard agree on the Moash analysis.  People who know they're in the wrong often try to rationalize their behavior.  Not so sure I agree with that on Dalinar though.  He probably does want to prove Taravangian wrong, but I don't think it's anything like the force pushing Moash. 

[JohnnyKaizen]

41 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Hard agree on the Moash analysis.  People who know they're in the wrong often try to rationalize their behavior.  Not so sure I agree with that on Dalinar though.  He probably does want to prove Taravangian wrong, but I don't think it's anything like the force pushing Moash.

With Dalinar, I am thinking that it's his connection to Honor that's driving the need to prove himself to be correct. He may even be touching the Spiritual Realm enough that some part of Dalinar knows what Taravangian will become? I imagine that Tanavast and Rayse had a somewhat similar arguement over what's best for the Cosmere. Now, I could be hugely overreaching, but that's the feeling I get there. 

[Nogo]

4 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I just finished a re-read of RoW, and I believe there's more to it. There is a common theme between Moash and Kaladin, and Dalinar and Taravangian. 

They both go about life in diametrically opposite ways. And for some reason, there is a spoken need (By Moash and by Dalinar) to prove to the other person that their way of doing things is the right way. For Moash, I think he wants to justify his desire for ever-expanding revenge, while claiming the moral high ground. Kaladin faced the same traumas that Moash did, but he choose the path of Honor while Moash has only ever wanted revenge. He feels a need to make Kaladin admit that he was right in his choice to betray. That it was the only path.

Dalinar feels a deep need to prove to Taravangian that his way of saving Roshar is the better way. Though with them, I'm not particularly looking forward to how that plays out.

I like your analogy between the two situations.  They're not identical in any way, but definitely a good connection.  

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Hard agree on the Moash analysis.  People who know they're in the wrong often try to rationalize their behavior.  

I also agree.   Earlier I wrote "Just because" and by this I meant before Odium and them had not yet decided to attack Kaladin's mental state as a weapon to keep him out of the fight.  Yes, Moash wants Kaladin to relent and accept Odium's "peace" to help justify his actions (and I think he wanted a friend).  And yet he intentionally makes Kaladin's pain worse trying to get him there.  Moash has some crazy going on upstairs.  Not Shallan crazy, but "railroad tracks don't go anywhere" crazy.  You know, I have called him a sociopath a lot (and I think he is) but he's also a narcissist.   Everything right/wrong/in between is 100% from Moash's perspective.  Every other perspective has no meaning to him.

[Scott Beckman]

A successfully written Moash redemption arc would be absolutely amazing, and something I've been hoping for since reading Words of Radiance. I am one of those people who loves Moash, lol.

And great analysis, Johnny.

[The_Milkgod]

people like that don't change, they just dig their feet in and suffer for it.hopefully Sanderson will keep it that way.

Edited May 5, 2023 by The_Milkgod
added note

[RedBlue]

8 hours ago, Scott Beckman said:

A successfully written Moash redemption arc would be absolutely amazing, and something I've been hoping for since reading Words of Radiance.

Exactly how I feel.

I love redemption arcs, and I would love to read a Moash redemption because Moash is so terrible. We’ve seen him dig himself into a hole. He has hit rock bottom and kept digging. He has made one dreadful choice after another for three books. He’s lost all sympathy. If he manages to turn it around and dig himself out again, after everything he’s done … that would be epic.