Moash Redemption Arc??????

[Greywatch]

I 100% believe it's possible and also I'm rooting for it. Brandon actually lost me, a bit, in RoW with just how terrible Moash was, it was almost unbelievable in a literal "oh, I don't know if I believe you, Brandon". Moash in RoW is so clearly not fully on board with what he's doing, he's fully in denial. Big difference. Can't wait to see how his arc shakes out, it's one of the things I'm MOST curious about for SA5.

[Nogo]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:22 PM, Greywatch said:

I 100% believe it's possible and also I'm rooting for it. Brandon actually lost me, a bit, in RoW with just how terrible Moash was, it was almost unbelievable in a literal "oh, I don't know if I believe you, Brandon". Moash in RoW is so clearly not fully on board with what he's doing, he's fully in denial. Big difference. Can't wait to see how his arc shakes out, it's one of the things I'm MOST curious about for SA5.

I just finished rereading RoW again and was looking at Moash carefully.  My very solid "no" vote above is wavering (just a little).  I notice a trend in Moash now that I hadn't before.  I see Moash and his Odium addiction much like Teft and his moss addiction.  I still hold true to my other posts earlier too... but I think that the Odium addiction is very much culpable for a good portion of what Moash does in RoW.  And I think that leaves some wiggle room for a redemption arc.   

Now, me personally, I can't think of a way out of it for him.  Lucky for everyone that Sanderson is way freakin smarter than I am.

[Letryx13]

9 hours ago, Nogo said:

I just finished rereading RoW again and was looking at Moash carefully.  My very solid "no" vote above is wavering (just a little).  I notice a trend in Moash now that I hadn't before.  I see Moash and his Odium addiction much like Teft and his moss addiction.  I still hold true to my other posts earlier too... but I think that the Odium addiction is very much culpable for a good portion of what Moash does in RoW.  And I think that leaves some wiggle room for a redemption arc.   

Now, me personally, I can't think of a way out of it for him.  Lucky for everyone that Sanderson is way freakin smarter than I am.

I think it's less of an addiction and more of a painkiller for pain he can't stand.  But the difference is small, I admit. 

At this point, about the only thing I can think of that could redeem him would be for him to help determine the outcome of the contest of champions in Dalinar's favor.  I still think there's a good chance that Kaladin will end up as Dalinar's champion, and Kaladin is the one thing Moash hasn't completely let go of.  I think that's mostly out of gratitude and respect for Kaladin, but there's a slim possibility.  But I think it's extremely unlikely.

The reason why I have a hard time believing in a Moash redemption arc is because he hasn't shown any redeeming qualities.  Even when Dalinar was at his worst he showed some restraint and could acknowledge some of his mistakes.  Ehlokar wasn't a good king, but he showed the desire to do better and try to be a better one, and was even willing to step down to let Dalinar become king at one point.  And when Kaladin wanted to let Ehlokar be killed, he started to question his decision once he was presented with information that contradicted the idea that the king was a monster.  Kaladin struggled with it, but he was able to admit that he'd been wrong.

The most important qualities in redemption are humility and a desire to change, I think.  And I don't think Moash has either of them.  And without them, there's no chance at redemption.

[RedBlue]

12 hours ago, Nogo said:

Now, me personally, I can't think of a way out of it for him. 

If Moash’s Odium painkiller supply holds steady, I can’t think of a way out for him either. But if the new Odium changes things up, Moash is going to have to make changes in response.

He can’t just live with himself — that’s why he cared so much about baiting Kaladin in RoW. If Moash can’t be a better person, that means he doesn’t have to try. Moash knew deep down that he was doing wrong and he hated it, which is why he needed Kaladin to ‘prove’ that Moash was in the right.

So if Taravangian takes away Moash’s ability to hide from his demons, then he’s going to have to confront them properly, and I think that’s the starting point of his redemption arc.

[alder24]

This is why I think Moash, doesn't deserve redemption, because even when Odium's influence was pushed away from him, he still thought like this, RoW ch 111:

Quote

“Teft, I...” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he’d done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel.

 

[Greywatch]

That line is exactly why I decided it's denial and not a genuine lack of regret. That's literally Moash feeling terrible, the depths of misery, and unable to admit to himself why he feels bad. He feels bad after killing someone who was a friend; the words he says about why that is are not true. I simply don't take his internal narrative at face value, because his internal narrative is swimming in Odium's no-emotion juices. Brandon has shown complete willingness to have characters' prejudices and lies they believe and misconceptions exist in their internal narrative and I don't think Moash is in any way exempt from that.

[LuckyJim]

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

That line is exactly why I decided it's denial and not a genuine lack of regret. That's literally Moash feeling terrible, the depths of misery, and unable to admit to himself why he feels bad. He feels bad after killing someone who was a friend; the words he says about why that is are not true. I simply don't take his internal narrative at face value, because his internal narrative is swimming in Odium's no-emotion juices. Brandon has shown complete willingness to have characters' prejudices and lies they believe and misconceptions exist in their internal narrative and I don't think Moash is in any way exempt from that.

Seconding this, Moash spends basically all of RoW lying to himself. Trying to convince himself that he's happy with his choices and that he doesn't have any lingering regrets, which is so obviously wrong that even Rayse calls him out on it (mostly unchained, lol). I don't think he's going to suddenly have perfect clarity on his mental state when he's reeling from a recent defeat and all of the shame, guilt and self hatred he's been pushing away for the past year is coming crashing down on him. Like he can't bring himself to admit that he was wrong, that he's sorry, because doing so would cause him to just completely fall apart on the spot and he's barely holding himself together as is.

[Letryx13]

On 5/10/2023 at 7:28 AM, alder24 said:

This is why I think Moash, doesn't deserve redemption, because even when Odium's influence was pushed away from him, he still thought like this, RoW ch 111:

Agreed. This is the other main argument argument against Moash's redemption.  Even when freed of Odium's influence, he makes the same selfish choices. 

It makes no sense that he's denying that he's sorry.  He tries to say that he's sorry but isn't able to bring himself to say the words.  

[Elder]

So I have a question:  what guilt is Moash trying to hide from with Odium’s gift?  He de doesn’t have the same kind of body count Szeth or Dalinar.  I have trouble believing he feels any guilt for killing Elhokar in battle. That was traumatic for us and for Kaladin, not for Moash.  Sure, he feels bad for killing Teft, but he accepted Odium’s gift well before that.  No, the only thing I can think of is he has trouble with the idea that he let Kaladin down.  And it seems Odium’s gift doesn’t even resolve that problem for him.

[JohnnyKaizen]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

No, the only thing I can think of is he has trouble with the idea that he let Kaladin down.  And it seems Odium’s gift doesn’t even resolve that problem for him.

I mean, his best friend and Captain told him to stand down from his assassination attempt, and instead of listening to him, he vocally stated he'd kill Kaladin to get to Elhokar, and then he tried. And Kaladin burst alight with divine power. So, he betrayed his best friend and everyone in Bridge 4...the only place he had ever felt like he truly belonged. He betrayed, what had become, his entire life.

[The Sibling]

44 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

So, he betrayed his best friend and everyone in Bridge 4...the only place he had ever felt like he truly belonged. He betrayed, what had become, his entire life.

I definitely agree with this. Kaladin basically saved Moash from Bridge four. they survived an intense trauma together and afterwards worked to keep the team together. bridge four was Moash's entire life. It was his one shot at redemption. He was part of something bigger then himself. I think this is why he felt so much guilt when he betrayed them. He betrayed the one person who helped him and the one group who accepted him. After that, he had nothing left. He had no options but to keep going down the path he had chosen. To force himself to believe that he had done the right thing, because he couldn't accept that he might have ruined everything for no reason.

When people ask if Moash is redeemable, I say yes because I believe that it is possible. But I also think that at the moment, Moash doesn't believe it's possible. he didn't believe that he could redeem himself and re-join the radiant side, so instead he had to go even further down the path that Odium was offering. Now he has given his pain to Odium, lost his eyesight, murdered Teft... He's given so much to the Singers that he can't really take it back. I think he is redeemable but there would have to be some pretty big changes for it to work. 

[Letryx13]

40 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

I definitely agree with this. Kaladin basically saved Moash from Bridge four. they survived an intense trauma together and afterwards worked to keep the team together. bridge four was Moash's entire life. It was his one shot at redemption. He was part of something bigger then himself. I think this is why he felt so much guilt when he betrayed them. He betrayed the one person who helped him and the one group who accepted him. After that, he had nothing left. He had no options but to keep going down the path he had chosen. To force himself to believe that he had done the right thing, because he couldn't accept that he might have ruined everything for no reason.

At one point Moash even mentions in Oathbringer about how he's felt like an outsider his entire life.  He feels like Bridge 4 are the only ones that ever let him into their group, which was a "special case" and he'd failed that test.  And Moash definitely felt like Bridge 4 was something special.  He challenged Kaladin about turning on a member of Bridge 4 more than once.  

3 hours ago, Elder said:

So I have a question:  what guilt is Moash trying to hide from with Odium’s gift?  He de doesn’t have the same kind of body count Szeth or Dalinar.  I have trouble believing he feels any guilt for killing Elhokar in battle. That was traumatic for us and for Kaladin, not for Moash.  Sure, he feels bad for killing Teft, but he accepted Odium’s gift well before that.  No, the only thing I can think of is he has trouble with the idea that he let Kaladin down.  And it seems Odium’s gift doesn’t even resolve that problem for him.

He may not be able to let go of his connection to Kaladin, but that doesn't mean Odium's connection didn't remove his negative emotions about Kaladin.  Moash's desire for Kaladin to either join Odium or end his life is more about rationalizing his choices.  I think in Moash's mind, if the person he respects the most gives up, then Moash can argue that nobody wouldn't have given up in his situation.  That's rationalizing, not emotion.  

56 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

When people ask if Moash is redeemable, I say yes because I believe that it is possible. But I also think that at the moment, Moash doesn't believe it's possible. he didn't believe that he could redeem himself and re-join the radiant side, so instead he had to go even further down the path that Odium was offering. Now he has given his pain to Odium, lost his eyesight, murdered Teft... He's given so much to the Singers that he can't really take it back. I think he is redeemable but there would have to be some pretty big changes for it to work. 

My guess is that Moash's eyes won't heal is similar to how Kaladin's slave brands didn't heal until his fourth ideal.  Moash's stubborn refusal to accept that he was wrong, his desire to shut his eyes to the truth, is what's causing his blindness.  Unless he's willing to let go of that, admit he was wrong, and atone, then there's no hope for redemption.  And it doesn't seem like he's on the path to do all of that.

[LuckyJim]

3 hours ago, Elder said:

So I have a question:  what guilt is Moash trying to hide from with Odium’s gift?  He de doesn’t have the same kind of body count Szeth or Dalinar.  I have trouble believing he feels any guilt for killing Elhokar in battle. That was traumatic for us and for Kaladin, not for Moash.  Sure, he feels bad for killing Teft, but he accepted Odium’s gift well before that.  No, the only thing I can think of is he has trouble with the idea that he let Kaladin down.  And it seems Odium’s gift doesn’t even resolve that problem for him.

A lot of it has to do with betraying Bridge 4, he feels like he’s an inherently bad person who screws up anything good in his life. It’s made worse by the internalized prejudice he’s developed from living in a society that hates him for being “too big and too confident” for a darkeyes. Its made even worse when he sees that even in a Fused slave camp, the human prisoners have not only put the lighteyes in a favored position, they put a famously corrupt man in a position of leadership.

All together it makes him conclude that not only is he an inherently bad person, perhaps all of humanity is the same. There’s no point in trying to make things better because humans always try to exploit and be cruel to each other. 

6 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Agreed. This is the other main argument argument against Moash's redemption.  Even when freed of Odium's influence, he makes the same selfish choices. 

It makes no sense that he's denying that he's sorry.  He tries to say that he's sorry but isn't able to bring himself to say the words.  

Admitting he’s sorry would mean admitting he was wrong, that everything he’s done and everything he’s been trying to prove was for nothing, and he’s desperately trying not to do that and rationalize his decisions.

Dalinar had a similar moment after he finds out he burned Evi to death and tries to shift the blame onto her rather than admit he was at fault.

[The Stormfather]

I feel like moash can only be partially redeemed. maybe during a fight, moash is dyeing beside a powerful enemy who kaladin is fighting and he uses his dieing breath to savekal, but eve nthat does not fully redeem him.

[Elder]

So here’s my question: what does Moash’s redemption even look like:

A.  Let’s start with the motivation.  What would actually shock Moash’s moral senses enough for him to change his ways?  He’s already had Odium’s Gift lifted twice, and each time he ran back to his master with his tail between his legs.  That said, neither Renarin nor Navani really had any interest in rehabilitation for Moash.  So here’s 2 scenarios where I think it could happen:

1.  He keeps on attacking Kaladin’s dreams, but Kaladin fights back, and utterly defeats Moash psychologically and philosophically.  Maybe he says his 5th ideal.  Moash gets the gift lifted.  And then Kaladin reaches out his hand, and pucks up the broken Moash.  That might be a turning point if Moash lets it happen, which would be a first.  Also, I’m not sure I’d blame Kaladin if he didn’t reach out.

2.  Moash somehow or other actually succeeds in breaking Kaladin.  And then he realizes, it doesn’t make anything better.  Moash is still is unsatisfied, and he can’t figure out why, so he seeks out answers that eventually lead to him making better choices.  Honestly, I hate this idea.  It could be rather devastating.

B.  Then there’s the timing of it.  It could be he’s at rock bottom now, and is ready to start making changes at the beginning of the book.  Or it could be more climactic, with the whole Kaladin’s 5th ideal tie-in. Or something in between.

C.  Finally, to what end?  In many cases, these redeemed fictional characters die as part of their redemption.  Your Darth Vaders, you Kylo Rens, etc.  I prefer making them live with it.  Your Angels, your Teal’cs, etc.

of course technically, Moash could do both. He could die.  But, carrying Jezrien’s blade, and having killed Jezrien, he might end up filling a job opening.  It certainly wouldn’t happening on its own mind you.  Someone would have to intervene.

[The Sibling]

6 hours ago, Elder said:

of course technically, Moash could do both. He could die.  But, carrying Jezrien’s blade, and having killed Jezrien, he might end up filling a job opening.  It certainly wouldn’t happening on its own mind you.  Someone would have to intervene.

I actually love this idea. I'm just not sure that Moash would be good at it. He's broken before, given in to his pain, who's to say he won't do it again?

[Elder]

2 hours ago, The Sibling said:

I actually love this idea. I'm just not sure that Moash would be good at it. He's broken before, given in to his pain, who's to say he won't do it again?

Depends on what he’d actually be doing as a herald I suppose. Who knows how the situation will change.  But good point,

[The Sibling]

Just now, Elder said:

Depends on what he’d actually be doing as a herald I suppose. Who knows how the situation will change.  But good point,

Yeah. I feel like if the Oathpact were re-made, then people would be happy to see Moash as one of the Heralds. because let's be honest, a whole lot of this fansite would be overjoyed at the thought of Moash in pain. It seems like a way to redeem Moash without angering the fans. He would be suffering for his crimes, and he would have to leave Kaladin alone, and he could actually save everyone. I just don't think that it would be possible for him without some big character changes.

[Elder]

2 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

Yeah. I feel like if the Oathpact were re-made, then people would be happy to see Moash as one of the Heralds. because let's be honest, a whole lot of this fansite would be overjoyed at the thought of Moash in pain. It seems like a way to redeem Moash without angering the fans. He would be suffering for his crimes, and he would have to leave Kaladin alone, and he could actually save everyone. I just don't think that it would be possible for him without some big character changes.

One Sanderson sized book to make the changes…. But he might only begin his process by the end of the book.  Or he might not turn it around at all.

Either way, Moash is setting himself up to be ideologically destroyed.  That’s the stakes he’s created.  That will be quite satisfying,  It will be up to him as to whether he can survive that.  

[Rhythm of Discord]

I'm sorry but after what Moash did to Teft there is no coming back. He committed a henious crime. No amount of atonement can make up for what Moash did. 

[JohnnyKaizen]

8 hours ago, Rhythm of Discord said:

I'm sorry but after what Moash did to Teft there is no coming back. He committed a henious crime. No amount of atonement can make up for what Moash did. 

I get the emotional argument of this, but if mass murderers can find redemption, then Moash could. He almost certainly will not, but he could.

[Rhythm of Discord]

Spoiler RoW and Oathbringer 

Spoiler

Moash killed Teft in cold blood unnecessary, he murdered his former friend. While what Dalinar did was horrible he didn't intentionally murder someone who was his friend and bettering themselves. Dalinar was in a time of war and while his actions were awful he didn't do what Moash did. Evi was an accident Teft wasn't. Moash had Teft beaten on the ground bond broken and he killed him. When Dalinar was in a similar situation he let the kid go. Dalinar showed he still had a heart even in all the violence and under the influence of the thrill. Moash chose this path, not to mention trying to get Kaladin to kill himself. So I don't think that it is possible for Moash to redeem himself after the crimes he has committed.

 

[Greywatch]

No need for spoiler-tagging OB and RoW here, they are well out of spoiler period.

Personally, everything Dalinar did in the war and at the Rift was worse than what Moash did, Brandon just wrote it so that the people of the Rift don't matter to us as much as the people Moash killed. Evi being an accident doesn't make up for the fact that Dalinar killed people on purpose. That's just me, but I 100% am not on board for rating Moash's crimes worse just because we like the people he killed more.

[Treamayne]

Neither Dalinar's nor Moash's actions were "acceptable;" and, to me, comparing them is pointless since the sliding scale of morality will point differently for each of us (based on background, religion, personal beleif, etc.). However, I think the main difference is:

• For Dalinar we saw how his guilt wrecked and nearly destroyed his life, his relationships with family and friends and his health. While he sought Shardic intervention to free him from his guilty conscience, he used that second chance to become better (and therefore "earned" his redemtion)
• For Moash we saw the beginnings of his guilty feelings at the end of WoR (when he removed the Bridge Four patch) and as his actions and guilty feelings began to destroy his life - he too sought Shardic intervention for his guilty conscience. However, so far he has only used that second chance to slide further down the morality scale. He hasn't yet recognized a need for redemption, much less decided to start trying to improve.

Will Moash get a redemption arc? I doubt it - if only because I don't think he would let himself take that path (other than possibly a "redeption by self-sacrifce-death").

Edited May 19, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Rhythm of Discord]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

No need for spoiler-tagging OB and RoW here, they are well out of spoiler period.

Thanks for letting me know. I'm new here and didn't want to assume. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Rhythm of Discord
Typo