Fullborn vs. 5th ideal windrunner 2.0

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

It's melted into the suit, you would need to sand it off, just hitting it with a rock won't work.

Now this is getting out of hand. It's melted now? So you're separating spren in half? Monstrous idea. The Sibling would like to have a word with you, and I highly doubt that Windrunners would dare to hurt spren in such a way. The outer layer would be dead and fall off, or block your movements as there is no stormlight coming in to fuel it. You really didn't think it through.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

As stated above you can leave the bottom of the boot without aluminum so you can still reverse lash.

And give an Atium shadow. Not ideal when you want to get rid of an Atium shadow.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You're welcome to it, but it makes them significantly worse as they can't push or pull on anything, it would probably mess with A-electrum too, and probably several other things I'm not thinking of.

Remove gauntlets and you can push/pull again. Or have just an aluminum breastplate and helmet to protect your head and spine without obstructing your Allomancy and Feruchemy. And that’s all without cutting spren in half.

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

Now this is getting out of hand. It's melted now? So you're separating spren in half? Monstrous idea. The Sibling would like to have a word with you, and I highly doubt that Windrunners would dare to hurt spren in such a way. The outer layer would be dead and fall off, or block your movements as there is no stormlight coming in to fuel it. You really didn't think it through.

The aluminum, not the plate, I don't even know if it's possible to melt plate given TLM.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

And give an Atium shadow. Not ideal when you want to get rid of an Atium shadow.

Not sure how useful seeing the bottom of a boot it going to be, that tells you next to nothing.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Remove gauntlets and you can push/pull again.

So far Marsh is the only person we know who's been able to do that, and he's had centuries to practice.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or have just an aluminum breastplate and helmet to protect your head and spine without obstructing your Allomancy and Feruchemy.

That still will interfere with you steel as the lines come from your center mass, which the aluminum will block. And that would still probably interfere with your electrum.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The aluminum, not the plate, I don't even know if it's possible to melt plate given TLM.

Thin layer of solid aluminum would still get shreded to pieces by Mist powered steel push. Aluminum isn't stronger than steel, it would break easier.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not sure how useful seeing the bottom of a boot it going to be, that tells you next to nothing.

It tells you where your opponent is (+ Shardblade shadow) and electrum shadows tells you how he's going to attact you.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So far Marsh is the only person we know who's been able to do that, and he's had centuries to practice.

If we're going only for what is known, then there is no 5th ideal Windrunner and no Fullborn, and Roshar doesn't have aluminum to create such "armor" and they can't soulcast it for now. Not to mention all the things we're saying both of them can do. Why do you say such a thing when we're talking about a theoretical situation to see what the limits are?

[NameIess]

Worth noting this WoB on coating Plate in aluminum: 

Quote

Questioner

With aluminum resisting Shardblades, could you plate Shardplate with aluminum and have extra resistance, or would that be too thin to really even do anything?

Brandon Sanderson

This would probably not be very effective. Maybe in modern times, you could, but honestly you'd be better off just building aluminum armor for someone else. It's not gonna add too much to the Shardplate and to what the Shardplate's already doing and it might just interfere too much with what you're trying to do anyway. It would be worth experimenting with, but I don't think it's gonna end up doing too much.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Also, we don't know that coating something in aluminum would prevent it from having an atium shadow. Aluminum itself might just become invisible. Besides, the Mistborn still has enough speed to easily avoid the Radiant almost indefinitely, and I still believe that F-gold will heal a Shardblade even if they were to be hit on the spine. This WoB seems to imply that a Radiant can take such a hit:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

and we know that investiture without a bond can heal someone who is dead, both from the still-canonically working Szeth's revival and from Wyndle's confidence that Lift could heal that kind of wound. If a Fullborn is constantly tapping gold at a high enough rate, their soul should be sufficiently Invested to heal the bond between it and the body. Wax pulled off a similar feat with the Bands of Mourning, and while he did have some help from Harmony, he was also completely dead before he started tapping.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Thin layer of solid aluminum would still get shreded to pieces by Mist powered steel push. Aluminum isn't stronger than steel, it would break easier.

It doesn't have to be strong. If your car got hit by a rock the paint isn't going anywhere, despite being really weak, all it needs to do it be bound tight enough to the plate that it can use the plate's own strength.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It tells you where your opponent is (+ Shardblade shadow) and electrum shadows tells you how he's going to attact you.

Where they are standing, which really isn't a lot to go on, better than nothing, but still a far, far cry from what Atium shows normally.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If we're going only for what is known,

It is known, it's also known to be incredibly difficult, with even Wax saying that holding an object between your hands like Marsh does is harder than non-allomancers can appreciate.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Roshar doesn't have aluminum to create such "armor" and they can't soulcast it for now. 

That's not true, they have access to aluminum, and know how to Soulcast it, we've known that since WoR.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why do you say such a thing when we're talking about a theoretical situation to see what the limits are?

Because I've been operating under the assumption of an average skill level.

If we're going full theoretical...

Spoiler

the other Nathan

If a large group of Windrunners lashed enough mass towards a single point, could they create a black hole?

Brandon Sanderson

Offhand, I think that would be theoretically possible, though in practicality impossible. We'd need [Peter Ahlstrom] to do some math.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

10 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

Worth noting this WoB on coating Plate in aluminum: 

Also, we don't know that coating something in aluminum would prevent it from having an atium shadow. Aluminum itself might just become invisible.

I mean, that's possible, but I'd find that very wierd, especially given that it blocks you from using steelsight or emotional allomancy through it, and you can't detect investiture useage through it.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

I mean, that's possible, but I'd find that very wierd, especially given that it blocks you from using steelsight or emotional allomancy through it, and you can't detect investiture useage through it.

True. Still, it would probably interfere with Plate's natural functions, perhaps even going so far as to stop Plate from healing properly.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because I've been operating under the assumption of an average skill level.

If we're going full theoretical...

  Reveal hidden contents

One Radiant wouldn't be able to do that, even at Fifth ideal. There's a limit to how much Stormlight they can actually hold.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

True. Still, it would probably interfere with Plate's natural functions, perhaps even going so far as to stop Plate from healing properly.

That is also a possibility.

Brandon just give us some answers on aluminum already, I need to know these things!

3 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

One Radiant wouldn't be able to do that, even at Fifth ideal. There's a limit to how much Stormlight they can actually hold.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you they could not.

However in the OP they were given infinite stormlight.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you they could not.

However in the OP they were given infinite stormlight.

If we take that literally, then it's a fight between Honor and Preservation, not a Windrunner and a Fullborn. Even if that wasn't the case, there is still a limit to what a Radiant can do, no matter how much Stormlight they have. No Windrunner will have a strong enough Intent to come anywhere near making a black hole.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

It doesn't have to be strong. If your car got hit by a rock the paint isn't going anywhere, despite being really weak, all it needs to do it be bound tight enough to the plate that it can use the plate's own strength.

Yes, your paint is certainly going into the air, if it's hit by a rock when traveling 100 km/h or something. This is Mist fueled Fullbron, normal steelpush is like duralumin push or more. 

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Where they are standing, which really isn't a lot to go on, better than nothing, but still a far, far cry from what Atium shows normally.

Don't ignore the ability to see where your opponent will be in a few seconds. That's a lot on its own. Plus Electrum to tell you what he will do.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because I've been operating under the assumption of an average skill level.

If we're going full theoretical...

What is an average skill? Make a very tiny, microscopic hole in the breastplate and lines can come up out of your center. Fixed. Change your bones Wolverine style to aluminum. 

Good thing there is only one Windrunner, right? 

If we're going theoretical, one Fullborn fueled by infinite Mists can do a lot:

Spoiler

Questioner

If a Full Twinborn (regardless of natural or holding the Bands of Mourning) had access to unlimited Investiture, could they become the sun by infinitely increasing their gravity and heat?

Brotherwise Games

Infinite Investiture, you’re theorizing?

Questioner

Dalinar’s next to him.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar’s not gonna be able to provide enough. But in a thought experiment, sort of outside bounds of time and space… you are providing infinite Investiture, you are providing an infinite amount of healing, and you are having them create heat and weight? The problem is, you’re gonna need a whole lot of mass to turn into the sun. I mean, there is a way you can do this, but you’re gonna have to provide… Either the Investiture’s gonna have to become mass, or you’re gonna have to have them do it in the proximity of a whole bunch of mass to have to start causing that sort of fusion reaction where the different layers collapsing in toward the center, dense layers, that sort of thing. In the realm of complete hypothesis, then yes. But, of course, you an do that here with infinite energy and infinite mass, if you needed to, using mechanical means.

I guess the weird part of that question is: the person could retain consciousness through infinite healing, and that is the weird part and that is possible. Yeah.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Remember, I already said there will be no winners here. But let's not go into ridiculous ideas. Fullborn is not a Wolverine (yet), and Radiant's plate coated with aluminum won't work, aluminum would break on impact not only with steel pushed rocks/coins, but during Radiant every punch. It's just won't work. 

[Argenti he/him]

Whether or not aluminum would block is irrelevant, nothing in a Windrunner's skill set gives them aluminum much less time for them to melt it onto their Shardplate. Come on people stay on topic.

 

Personally I think it depends where this fight happens, wide open area with sky access? Windrunner wins, but barely. Any where else? Fullborn wins easily.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Whether or not aluminum would block is irrelevant, nothing in a Windrunner's skill set gives them aluminum much less time for them to melt it onto their Shardplate. Come on people stay on topic.

The topic is dead, we're trying to revive it, but unless you start adding things like aluminum there isn't anything more to discuss.

[Argenti he/him]

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The topic is dead, we're trying to revive it, but unless you start adding things like aluminum there isn't anything more to discuss.

Let it die. We must let the dying pass peacefully into the Beyond .

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Let it die. We must let the dying pass peacefully into the Beyond .

Quote

no

I propose we allow technology, including fabrials.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

I propose we allow technology, including fabrials.

Nah, let it die. Memento Mori.

We've already talked about it in Wax vs Kal. So, you know, mostly the same thing applies here. In this case you have a suppressor fabrial fueled by normal Stormlight vs primar cubes charged by aluminum or chromium with god-level strength of Mists. Unless Windrunner brings literally the whole Urithiru with him, I doubt his suppressor fabrial can reach the same power level as primar cubes charged by aluminum/chromium powered by Mists (chromium is useless, because they have infinite Stormlight).

But I'm sure you will disagree, and nothing that I say will convince you, so let it die. Let Windrunner and Fullborn fight till the end of times and let this topic rest in pieces.

Outside of the topic, I wonder what would primar cube charged with A-Atium do. Allow anybody in the rage to see the future of others?

 

Edit: Omg my rep is Truthless. I'm fulfilled now. Is there Nightblood as well?

Edited April 26, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nah, let it die. Memento Mori.

No.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

We've already talked about it in Wax vs Kal. So, you know, mostly the same thing applies here. In this case you have a suppressor fabrial fueled by normal Stormlight vs primar cubes charged by aluminum or chromium with god-level strength of Mists. Unless Windrunner brings literally the whole Urithiru with him, I doubt his suppressor fabrial can reach the same power level as primar cubes charged by aluminum/chromium powered by Mists (chromium is useless, because they have infinite Stormlight).

Fair, enough, but I had another idea yesterday, Mist burning electrum and Atium might be a disadvantage,

Spoiler

Mac

If [Vin] burns mist-assisted gold, would she have experienced something that felt like one of Dalinar's visions?

Brandon Sanderson

Plausibly, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

And we know from Dalinar's Visions that he was still experiencing time at the same rate, so burning electrum or Atium would prevent the Fullborn from being a threat.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Outside of the topic, I wonder what would primar cube charged with A-Atium do. Allow anybody in the rage to see the future of others?

That would be wierd, but probably what would happen. And since it's only one source of future sight it might not interfere with itself.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Edit: Omg my rep is Truthless. I'm fulfilled now. Is there Nightblood as well?

There's a sentient awakened object, but I don't think there's a NIghtblood rank.

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Fair, enough, but I had another idea yesterday, Mist burning electrum and Atium might be a disadvantage,

  Reveal hidden contents

Mac

If [Vin] burns mist-assisted gold, would she have experienced something that felt like one of Dalinar's visions?

Brandon Sanderson

Plausibly, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

And we know from Dalinar's Visions that he was still experiencing time at the same rate, so burning electrum or Atium would prevent the Fullborn from being a threat.

I assumed he has normal Atium and the rest of his metals are fueled by Mist. But, he can not just burn and flare metals, he can be more precise in how much he burns it, so he can limit it.

And Mist-burned Atium (assuming Atium is an alloy, and Mists are of Harmony) would make him experience the same thing that Elend saw when he burned Atium with duralumin - full look into SR (and being pulled mostly into SR), which would make Fullborn almost fully see and understand his future, including the very fight he is in. Also worth mentioning, by doing so Elend was able to strike Marsh into his neck/arm/side overcoming his Atium, and that was only because Elend chose to not kill Marsh, as he knew he must die for Vin to kill Ati. So burning Atium by fueling it with a lot of Mists might be far more advantageus than we think.

 

But it might not be the case. Remember, god metals are the most concentrated form of investiture, Mists are less concentrated. Using Mists to fuel Atium might not be the best idea, as Atium is already the fuel for it, power doesn't come from Preservation nor Ruin directly, it's coming from the god metal. By using Mists you might end up with a weaker form of Atium or you would have to use more Mists to reach the same level. Which with infinite Mist here is possible.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That would be wierd, but probably what would happen. And since it's only one source of future sight it might not interfere with itself.

It's not about the source, it's about seeing the future. They see the future, possibly all futures of everyone in the rage (because of one source) and they can react to them, changing the future, which makes new shadows, to which others can react, changing the future ect. Shadows would still split normally, and that would make the whole thing a bit useless. Unless you have gunners/archers in the Atium cube, and they can see the future of their targets outside of its range, making them aim perfectly.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There's a sentient awakened object, but I don't think there's a NIghtblood rank.

Sentient awakened object here I come!

Edit: WoB about burn rate:

Spoiler

Seonid

Is the level of burning a continuous distribution, can I burn 0.1 level of steel all the way up to flaring? Or is it just I burn or I flare?

Brandon Sanderson

The more skilled you are, the more you have the ability to moderate that. For most people it is burn or flare. But you can kind of burn up to a flare, does that make sense? Going below is really hard.

Seonid

Can you push a flare?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by alder24