Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted March 13, 2023 Report Share Posted March 13, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Fullborn isn't stupid, he won't be running around in a circle waiting for a Windrunner to go down, he has f-zinc, and can calculate in his head what Radiant is doing and predict his next moves. It would be very easy for a Fullborn to realize that Radiant wants him to drain his attribute, and then he just wouldn't commit. Possible, but keep in mind that once his head is smashed, Radiant can't do anything, so Fullborn needs to just keep smashing his head, rip off his spine, his heart and wait for him to die. Yes, but leeching with duralumin would be far quicker. I am almost upset I never thought of this before. Would there be a trick with F duralumin to drain the spheres of stormlight? Also can a radiant breath more stormlight in if they have massive chest trauma as well? Would the radiant be able to continue fighting while healing from a headwound while some super speedy hands strips them of their clothing with all of the gems lining it? Leeching is great for preventing the shardblade being resummoned. I think separating the spheres from the radiant or even breaking them would be a better route to sapping them of their stormlight. I know shardplate is good insulation but a hand inside of the radiant inside of the storm plate and a massive heat storm of brass tapping should totally melt the radiant and the gems he is holding / wearing (or at least damage the spheres to leak a bunch of light). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 13, 2023 Report Share Posted March 13, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, alder24 said: But during compounding you don't get allomantic action, you get feruchemical attribute. It's different than the situation with Breaths. Barely, the only difference is how the investiture manifests. 5 hours ago, alder24 said: 100% disagree. Even moving a few times faster, without approaching speed of sound would be far faster than a Windrruner can react to. Windrruner can move faster, but he can’t react to Fullborn moving at just 5x the speed. This is just human brain limitations. Baseball players routinely react to objects moving at 90-100 mph, without training humans can't maintain 10 mph. The fastest recorded running speed by a human is around 27 mph, and that's only for short distances, not something that could be maintained for more than a few seconds Five times is nowhere near enough, even ten wouldn't be enough we're talking 20-30 times base speeds before they start becoming dangerous. Achievable, sure, but that's not going to be easy to maintain. Edited March 13, 2023 by Frustration 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted March 13, 2023 Report Share Posted March 13, 2023 39 minutes ago, Frustration said: Barely, the only difference is how the investiture manifests. Baseball players routinely react to objects moving at 90-100 mph, without training humans can't maintain 10 mph. The fastest recorded running speed by a human is around 27 mph, and that's only for short distances, not something that could be maintained for more than a few seconds Five times is nowhere near enough, even ten wouldn't be enough we're talking 20-30 times base speeds before they start becoming dangerous. Achievable, sure, but that's not going to be easy to maintain. I think the speed just depends on where it starts and when it is used. There is a difference between tapping a bunch to close the gap and tapping a bunch for the melee combat. I think moving 2x faster than the radiant in close is going to be more than enough to dance around the shardblade and land your shots. You only need to play at supersonic speeds if you are trying to close a large gap quickly. Just imagine a boxing match where one guy was able to move twice as fast as his opponent... and think at normal speed for how fast he is moving... and now he can ramp up zinc as well as tap other feruchemical powers. Steel isn't just good for blitzing your opponent. It is bullet time at your fingertips. When you tap you don't just move super fast... everything else starts moving super slow. Steel is great for closing gaps. Its even better for just not getting hit. You want to nullify the shardblade advantage? Slow down your enemy and the whole world around you so much that you are Tobey Maguire fighting flash. Step under and around the radiant. Tap a ton of strength / weight / heat and flare all of your pewter (heck at this rate just duralumin burn your pewter) and plunge your hand into their shardplate and burn their soul away cooking them inside of their plate while squeezing down on their heart / spine all while flaring and burning as much chromium as you possibly can after grabbing them. You really wouldn't have to go that much quicker than 200-300% faster than normal to duck under them. Kaladin took on a shardbearer before he even knew about Syl. Shardplate and stormlight are awesome but they won't hold a candle to a pewter enhanced human with even 200% normal speed via steel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I think the speed just depends on where it starts and when it is used. There is a difference between tapping a bunch to close the gap and tapping a bunch for the melee combat. I think moving 2x faster than the radiant in close is going to be more than enough to dance around the shardblade and land your shots. You only need to play at supersonic speeds if you are trying to close a large gap quickly. Just imagine a boxing match where one guy was able to move twice as fast as his opponent... and think at normal speed for how fast he is moving... and now he can ramp up zinc as well as tap other feruchemical powers. Steel isn't just good for blitzing your opponent. It is bullet time at your fingertips. When you tap you don't just move super fast... everything else starts moving super slow. Steel is great for closing gaps. Its even better for just not getting hit. You want to nullify the shardblade advantage? Slow down your enemy and the whole world around you so much that you are Tobey Maguire fighting flash. Step under and around the radiant. Tap a ton of strength / weight / heat and flare all of your pewter (heck at this rate just duralumin burn your pewter) and plunge your hand into their shardplate and burn their soul away cooking them inside of their plate while squeezing down on their heart / spine all while flaring and burning as much chromium as you possibly can after grabbing them. You really wouldn't have to go that much quicker than 200-300% faster than normal to duck under them. Kaladin took on a shardbearer before he even knew about Syl. Shardplate and stormlight are awesome but they won't hold a candle to a pewter enhanced human with even 200% normal speed via steel. The hand is quicker than the body, and as Sazed shows tapping large amounts of pewter becomes encumbering quickly. So they would need far more than 2x speed to do that. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Kaladin took on a shardbearer before he even knew about Syl. Shardplate and stormlight are awesome but they won't hold a candle to a pewter enhanced human with even 200% normal speed via steel. This argument never makes sense, it implies that Helaran actually fought Kaladin, rather than batting him away. By that logic I can say Vin beat TRL, and a 3rd oath Windrunners beats a Mistborn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkPlasma Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Eh, imo you can't 1 hit kill a high Ideal Radiant without something that turns off healing or gets around it (Nightblood, anti-Investiture, larkins eating all the Stormlight, etc). Stormlight healing should fix a crushed head if you're a high Ideal Radiant (though not a Herald). I think this could easily become inconclusive where neither combatant has a good way to kill the other -- depending on how much f-Gold Health it takes to deal with Shardblade wounds. Leeching would likely be quite slow against Roshar levels of Investiture. i think leeching is as instant as aluminum, is it not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Frustration said: Yep Thanks for confirmation. Quote Well unfortunately that's not true, any power in the metal is released to the user, not destroyed. Reveal hidden contents Questioner (paraphrased) What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) If he did that, he’d get Allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal. Footnote: Supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e8055 But breathes clearly don't change the nature of burning metal (you don't get e.g. B-steel), so they work differently than when metal is Invested via Feruchemy. Similarly, Forged metal also acts only like the metal it is forged to be (unless the seal breaks). So I don't think the analogy works, as clearly Feruchemy interacts differently with allomancy than other ways of Investing metal. But in lack of further evidence, I think agreeing to disagree on this point is the best we can do. 12 hours ago, Heilven said: Oh and on stealth killing a radiant, I think destroying the brain should work. You would have to be very careful to make sure you actually finish them off, but I imagine destroying the brain should destroy the connection to the physical realm pretty well. Perhaps they could be healed by an outside source, but so would anyone really. I'm not entirely convinced of that, but healing a completely destroyed brain feels too op imo. For the more extreme cosmere healing (of which Stormlight is an example if you have enough of it in you/your spirit) the spiritual template takes over and maintains healing even when brain is unconscious. WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535 Destroying the brain alone won't destroy connection to Physical realm, if the subject is being actively healed. Shardblade probably does sever that Connection when cutting spine/brain/gemheart, which is what makes it so powerful against Fused. Quote Oh also I came up with this a while ago but I think an aluminum alloy hollow point bullet to the brain should kill a radiant with basically no cure. Provided you can catch them off guard. Hollow point would break apart right? IF so, that would be a good way to kill unsuspecting Radiant. 12 hours ago, alder24 said: Fullborn isn't stupid, he won't be running around in a circle waiting for a Windrunner to go down, he has f-zinc, and can calculate in his head what Radiant is doing and predict his next moves. It would be very easy for a Fullborn to realize that Radiant wants him to drain his attribute, and then he just wouldn't commit. I mean you would not need F-zinc for that even. Not wasting what you have is just common sense (unless you are overconfident). Quote Possible, but keep in mind that once his head is smashed, Radiant can't do anything, so Fullborn needs to just keep smashing his head, rip off his spine, his heart and wait for him to die. Yep. Even if Radiant could regenerate entire head in a second, that is still a second where they cannot do anything and fullborn can leech/punch as they desire. Quote Yes, but leeching with duralumin would be far quicker. Quicker, but would it be sufficient? Scadrial is low Investiture world, and metals are relatively conservative (e.g. steel allowing acceleration of 3-4 lashings at best and only in short bursts), and nicrosil is already quick burning metal. So Fullborn could use Duralumin (for which they would have to extinguish all the other metals, and stop tapping as well, unless they have bunch of very small metalminds), and then they would find Radiant still has Stormlight. 10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Would there be a trick with F duralumin to drain the spheres of stormlight? I don't think so, F-Duralumin only affects Connection of Fullborn, and seemingly only pre-existing ones, or the ones of the same type. Since Fullborn would have no Connection to spheres or the stormlight, they could not do anything to them I think. Plus the spheres would be inside the plate, so unreachable. Quote Also can a radiant breath more stormlight in if they have massive chest trauma as well? The 'breathing' is more of a mental help, not requirement. Thinking about breathing Stormlight in is sufficient (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2533), and it could be done unconciouncly as well (since Kaladin breathed in stormlight when unconscious after being strung up in highstorm) Quote Would the radiant be able to continue fighting while healing from a headwound while some super speedy hands strips them of their clothing with all of the gems lining it? If the head wound is sufficient (i.e. damaged brain to such extent that thinking/moving is not possible) then no. If the damage does not result in that, then yes. Quote Leeching is great for preventing the shardblade being resummoned. I think separating the spheres from the radiant or even breaking them would be a better route to sapping them of their stormlight. Spheres have to be on Radiant inside the plate, so you cannot get to them. Even breaking one section is going to be relatively costly. Quote I know shardplate is good insulation but a hand inside of the radiant inside of the storm plate and a massive heat storm of brass tapping should totally melt the radiant and the gems he is holding / wearing (or at least damage the spheres to leak a bunch of light). And Radiant can cut off your hand while you are doing this, and heal the burn wounds (which Fullborn would possibly have to heal as well, since you can kill yourself with F-brass). 3 hours ago, PinkPlasma said: i think leeching is as instant as aluminum, is it not? Nope, it takes time. It is just that on Scadrial the amount of Investiture is relatively low, and that most Mistborn have only metal flakes inside of them. See the WoB Spoiler Kaymyth I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings. Brandon Sanderson What it boils down to is this: 1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off. 2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds. 3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal. ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015) Edited March 14, 2023 by therunner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 10 hours ago, Frustration said: The hand is quicker than the body, and as Sazed shows tapping large amounts of pewter becomes encumbering quickly. So they would need far more than 2x speed to do that. This argument never makes sense, it implies that Helaran actually fought Kaladin, rather than batting him away. By that logic I can say Vin beat TRL, and a 3rd oath Windrunners beats a Mistborn. Sazed tapping pewter would likely look a lot different than a fullborn tapping pewter as the fullborn can compound allomantic pewter strength specifically. I always assumed Helarans fight against Kaladin was more legit and that Kaladin actually did have access to some stormlight for that but it wasn't seen due to the mid day sun or whatever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Would there be a trick with F duralumin to drain the spheres of stormlight? If Fullborn touches them. 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Also can a radiant breath more stormlight in if they have massive chest trauma as well? Physical breathing isn't needed to breathe in Stormlight. 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Would the radiant be able to continue fighting while healing from a headwound while some super speedy hands strips them of their clothing with all of the gems lining it? Depending on how severely his brain was damaged. If he has Fullborn's fist in place of his brain, then Radiant can only wait for it to heal (if it's even possible). 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Leeching is great for preventing the shardblade being resummoned. I think separating the spheres from the radiant or even breaking them would be a better route to sapping them of their stormlight. Yes, but they are inside a Shardplate, so Fullborn would need to rip every part of it to destroy Radiant's spheres, so not practical, he should go for a head. 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I know shardplate is good insulation but a hand inside of the radiant inside of the storm plate and a massive heat storm of brass tapping should totally melt the radiant and the gems he is holding / wearing (or at least damage the spheres to leak a bunch of light). Brass is a good idea, but it won't reach body melting temperatures, as it could also kill Fullborn. Not to mention melting gems - in the case of Diamond, the melting point is 3550 degrees Celsius, so no, that won't work. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Barely, the only difference is how the investiture manifests. No the difference is that in case of Breaths, you burn just a metal, without touching Breaths, in case of metalmind you use attributes stored in it to be a filter for investiture coming from Preservation. Are you denying that investiture comes from Preservation when we have WoBs and books telling us otherwise? 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Baseball players routinely react to objects moving at 90-100 mph, without training humans can't maintain 10 mph. The fastest recorded running speed by a human is around 27 mph, and that's only for short distances, not something that could be maintained for more than a few seconds Five times is nowhere near enough, even ten wouldn't be enough we're talking 20-30 times base speeds before they start becoming dangerous. Achievable, sure, but that's not going to be easy to maintain. Yeah, but a baseball is coming in a straight, predictable line, directly ahead of a player with a bat. So you can train to react to it. I can't react to it, I'm not trained. Can you react to a car going 200 km/h in a short distance and be fast enough to avoid it? I doubt it. It would be a serious challenge for a Windrunner to keep up with it. Not to mention avoid a fist going 5x-10x as fast as it should just in front of your face. There is just no way. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: The hand is quicker than the body, and as Sazed shows tapping large amounts of pewter becomes encumbering quickly. So they would need far more than 2x speed to do that. He has allomancy, he can store and compound A-pewter strength, no muscle gain. Even in SA regular, uninvested people are able to dodge a Shardblade, catch it between their hands and strike a Shardberer. Dalinar and Kaladin for example. 11 hours ago, Frustration said: This argument never makes sense, it implies that Helaran actually fought Kaladin, rather than batting him away. By that logic I can say Vin beat TRL, and a 3rd oath Windrunners beats a Mistborn. But he did fight Kal. Go and reread WoK ch 47. 7 hours ago, PinkPlasma said: i think leeching is as instant as aluminum, is it not? No, it takes time. Spoiler Kaymyth I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings. Brandon Sanderson What it boils down to is this: 1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off. 2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds. 3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal. ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015) 4 hours ago, therunner said: Quicker, but would it be sufficient? Scadrial is low Investiture world, and metals are relatively conservative (e.g. steel allowing acceleration of 3-4 lashings at best and only in short bursts), and nicrosil is already quick burning metal. So Fullborn could use Duralumin (for which they would have to extinguish all the other metals, and stop tapping as well, unless they have bunch of very small metalminds), and then they would find Radiant still has Stormlight. That's a fair point. It would be wise for a Fullborn to take a big ball of chromium with him, or have multiple empty chromium piercings so he can burn them away with duralumin to ensure that investiture difference won't matter any more. I wish we can have an in book encounter between Radiant and chromium leecher to know how much he can leech. Larkins can leech quite a lot, quite fast. 4 hours ago, therunner said: And Radiant can cut off your hand while you are doing this, and heal the burn wounds (which Fullborn would possibly have to heal as well, since you can kill yourself with F-brass). Feruchemist are immune to the negative logical effects of tapping more attributes. So I assume as long as they don't reach ridiculous temperatures, they are safe: Spoiler Thoughtful Spurts If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen? Brandon Sanderson As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Frustration said: Barely, the only difference is how the investiture manifests. Baseball players routinely react to objects moving at 90-100 mph, without training humans can't maintain 10 mph. The fastest recorded running speed by a human is around 27 mph, and that's only for short distances, not something that could be maintained for more than a few seconds Five times is nowhere near enough, even ten wouldn't be enough we're talking 20-30 times base speeds before they start becoming dangerous. Achievable, sure, but that's not going to be easy to maintain. Fascinating! I don't watch sports, so I didn't know this was a thing. It's cool to know about the upper limits of human capacity. Still don't know how easy it would be to defend against someone who sees the world in slow motion though. 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I think the speed just depends on where it starts and when it is used. There is a difference between tapping a bunch to close the gap and tapping a bunch for the melee combat. I think moving 2x faster than the radiant in close is going to be more than enough to dance around the shardblade and land your shots. You only need to play at supersonic speeds if you are trying to close a large gap quickly. Just imagine a boxing match where one guy was able to move twice as fast as his opponent... and think at normal speed for how fast he is moving... and now he can ramp up zinc as well as tap other feruchemical powers. Steel isn't just good for blitzing your opponent. It is bullet time at your fingertips. When you tap you don't just move super fast... everything else starts moving super slow. Steel is great for closing gaps. Its even better for just not getting hit. You want to nullify the shardblade advantage? Slow down your enemy and the whole world around you so much that you are Tobey Maguire fighting flash. Step under and around the radiant. Tap a ton of strength / weight / heat and flare all of your pewter (heck at this rate just duralumin burn your pewter) and plunge your hand into their shardplate and burn their soul away cooking them inside of their plate while squeezing down on their heart / spine all while flaring and burning as much chromium as you possibly can after grabbing them. You really wouldn't have to go that much quicker than 200-300% faster than normal to duck under them. Kaladin took on a shardbearer before he even knew about Syl. Shardplate and stormlight are awesome but they won't hold a candle to a pewter enhanced human with even 200% normal speed via steel. I completely forgot about Kaladin taking on a Shardbearer before gaining his powers (I blame that I somehow don't have WoK as part of my collection yet). I suppose that Shardbearers don't have that much extra speed then, so we have some proof that a Fullborn (or even vanilla Steelrunner) really could blitz them (or at least gain a serious advantage against them) without too much difficulty. Edited March 14, 2023 by Trusk'our 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Frustration said: Five times is nowhere near enough, even ten wouldn't be enough we're talking 20-30 times base speeds before they start becoming dangerous. Achievable, sure, but that's not going to be easy to maintain. This is demonstratably wrong. In boxing as previously mentioned and martial arts matches, unless there is a decently large difference in weight and strength (something Compounding can more than make up for) the faster person almost always has the advantage. And that's two people who would only have a relatively small difference in speed. Even 2x faster would be well above even the difference between the fastest real life combatant and slowest. Edited March 14, 2023 by StanLemon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: He has allomancy, he can store and compound A-pewter strength, no muscle gain. Even in SA regular, uninvested people are able to dodge a Shardblade, catch it between their hands and strike a Shardberer. Dalinar and Kaladin for example. We saw exactly only Kaladin and Dalinar catch a Shardblade. And both of them are among the greatest non-immortal fighters in Cosmere, and both are Invstested by that point. And even then, per Zahel it basically only works if the swing is directly overhead, and relatively slow. Also Dalinar at that point has budding connection to Stormfather already, so he is of 1st Oath effectively, and Kaladin was on 2nd Oath by then, so neither were a regular person. So no, regular uninvested people can't catch a Shardblade. Dodge it maybe, but even that is a stretch, regular people can't dodge regular sword strikes, much less one's far faster. Quote That's a fair point. It would be wise for a Fullborn to take a big ball of chromium with him, or have multiple empty chromium piercings so he can burn them away with duralumin to ensure that investiture difference won't matter any more. I wish we can have an in book encounter between Radiant and chromium leecher to know how much he can leech. Larkins can leech quite a lot, quite fast. Empty chromium piercing could be an option, however that leaves something Windrunner can Reverse Lash (they can affect living beings, pierced metal won't be a problem). So Windrunner would quickly rip them off. Also that requires Fullborn to have awareness of having to leech a lot for some reason, which would not be how they typically behave. Quote Feruchemist are immune to the negative logical effects of tapping more attributes. So I assume as long as they don't reach ridiculous temperatures, they are safe: Up to a point, see WoB . I would consider tapping enough brass to start melting things to be beyond that point (not to mention they would melt their own metalminds first, and lose access to their stores). Gold melts at only ~1000 Celsius, so Fullborn can never become much warmer than that. Quote Questioner If Feruchemists can store warmth, and you can Compound if you have the dual... Could they harm themselves by drawing too much warmth? Brandon Sanderson Could they draw it out of their body and therefore kill themselves by freezing themselves? Questioner Either way. Either that, or burn and Compound too much... Brandon Sanderson This is harder to do that you think it [is], because built into Feruchemy is the natural body's resistance to the things you're doing, but it is possible. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) 47 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I completely forgot about Kaladin taking on a Shardbearer before gaining his powers (I blame that I somehow don't have WoK as part of my collection yet). By that point Syl was already nearby though, and he was supernaturally skilled. I mean it is basically unheard of for regular person to kill Shardbearer (i.e. Kaladin is the first and last person we know has done it ever). 28 minutes ago, StanLemon said: This is demonstratably wrong, in boxing as previously mentioned and martial arts matches, unless there is a decently large difference in weight and strength (something Compounding can more than make up for) the faster person almost always has the advantage. And that's two people who would only have a relatively small difference in speed. Even 2x faster would be well above even the difference between the fastest real life combatant and slowest. Quote Yeah, but a baseball is coming in a straight, predictable line, directly ahead of a player with a bat. So you can train to react to it. I can't react to it, I'm not trained. Can you react to a car going 200 km/h in a short distance and be fast enough to avoid it? I doubt it. It would be a serious challenge for a Windrunner to keep up with it. Not to mention avoid a fist going 5x-10x as fast as it should just in front of your face. There is just no way. Quote I suppose that Shardbearers don't have that much extra speed then, so we have some proof that a Fullborn (or even vanilla Steelrunner) really could blitz them (or at least gain a serious advantage against them) without too much difficulty. Deadplate wearers have somewhat improved speed, probably twice as much, and improved reflexes. And yeah, Fullborn with F-steel even when just tapping at 10x rate would have enough of advantage to kill Windrunner when combined with other powers, I thought we reached that conclusion like ~5-6 pages back? Sidenote: On effects of holding Stormlight, in light of RoW: In chapter 5, Kaladin hits ground while lashed few times, and comments he hit hard enough to break bones were it not for Stormlight. Then either Stormlight improvement is not just 'perfecting' but clearly beyond human (similar to pewter), or Stormlight can heal about on par with Compounded Gold as Miles shows it. And that is still on 3rd Oath only. Edited March 14, 2023 by therunner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 3 minutes ago, therunner said: We saw exactly only Kaladin and Dalinar catch a Shardblade. And both of them are among the greatest non-immortal fighters in Cosmere, and both are Invstested by that point. And even then, per Zahel it basically only works if the swing is directly overhead, and relatively slow. Also Dalinar at that point has budding connection to Stormfather already, so he is of 1st Oath effectively, and Kaladin was on 2nd Oath by then, so neither were a regular person. So no, regular uninvested people can't catch a Shardblade. Dodge it maybe, but even that is a stretch, regular people can't dodge regular sword strikes, much less one's far faster. Empty chromium piercing could be an option, however that leaves something Windrunner can Reverse Lash (they can affect living beings, pierced metal won't be a problem). So Windrunner would quickly rip them off. Also that requires Fullborn to have awareness of having to leech a lot for some reason, which would not be how they typically behave. Up to a point, see WoB . I would consider tapping enough brass to start melting things to be beyond that point (not to mention they would melt their own metalminds first, and lose access to their stores). Gold melts at only ~1000 Celsius, so Fullborn can never become much warmer than that. By that point Syl was already nearby though, and he was supernaturally skilled. I mean it is basically unheard of for regular person to kill Shardbearer (i.e. Kaladin is the first and last person we know has done it ever). They have somewhat improved speed, probably twice as much, and improved reflexes. And yeah, Fullborn with F-steel even when just tapping at 10x rate would have enough of advantage to kill them, I thought we reached that conclusion like ~5-6 pages back? Sidenote: So, per RoW Stormlight can either heal broken bones as they happen, or strengthens body in similar way to pewter. In chapter 5, Kaladin hits ground while lashed few times, and comments he hit hard enough to break bones were it not for Stormlight. Then either Stormlight improvement is not just 'perfecting' but clearly beyond human (similar to pewter), or Stormlight can heal about on par with Compounded Gold as Miles shows it. I imagine Stormlight healing is on par with gold compounding to be honest. The same dangers that a gold compounder faces would be faced by someone with stormlight. 5 hours ago, therunner said: And Radiant can cut off your hand while you are doing this, and heal the burn wounds (which Fullborn would possibly have to heal as well, since you can kill yourself with F-brass). As far as the F brass idea. I think you guys are right and melting the spheres is out of the question. I also don't think you have to be that hot to make a huge impact. The radiant would be suffering horrible pains and agony and requiring massive healing every second with someone's fist inside of them warmed up to anything past boiling point... and like you stated they could push it up to the lowest melting point of their own metalminds. They do get protected but by how much? I would imagine metalminds on the skin heated to a few hundred degrees would start to require the fullborn healing themselves as well but it isn't a useless tactic as the feruchemy will protect them beyond what would start to require massive healing from the radiant to deal with. Also I don't know that the fullborn should worry about getting his hands cut off. There will be no attacking from the front with F steel. (Or even if they had savantism with bendalloy). You duck under and side step any attack moving way way slower than you should have to sweat (cause steel is bullet time) and you attack the spine through the shardplate. Attack the back of the head... where ever you feel like it but not from the front. Even moving twice as fast as the radiant would be more than enough to gain optimal position behind them for whatever strikes you want to make. I do think the windrunners best chances come in the form of ranged attacks with their surges. Any moment where they think they can get into range for a shardblade attack would be suicide. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, therunner said: Sidenote: On effects of holding Stormlight, in light of RoW: In chapter 5, Kaladin hits ground while lashed few times, and comments he hit hard enough to break bones were it not for Stormlight. Then either Stormlight improvement is not just 'perfecting' but clearly beyond human (similar to pewter), or Stormlight can heal about on par with Compounded Gold as Miles shows it. And that is still on 3rd Oath only. 13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I imagine Stormlight healing is on par with gold compounding to be honest. The same dangers that a gold compounder faces would be faced by someone with stormlight. It's definitely not on the level of Gold Compounding as there are plentiful examples of Radiants needing time to heal that Miles just never needs. Frankly this line seems to be a bit of an outlier compared to the rest of the series as there are no examples I can think of other than this that even imply that Radiants have enhanced durability and there are far more examples of the healing being not nigh instantaneous. Also the line is a little ambiguous, as the following paragraph mentions that Stormlight healed the sprain in moments. So it would be reasonable to interpret Kaladin as meaning he would be left with broken bones if not for the healing power of Stormlight Edited March 14, 2023 by StanLemon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 2 minutes ago, StanLemon said: It's definitely not on the level of Gold Compounding as there are plentiful examples of Radiants needing time to heal that Miles just never needs. Frankly this line seems to be a bit of an outlier compared to the rest of the series as there are no examples I can think of other than this that even imply that Radiants have enhanced durability and there are far more examples of the healing being not nigh instantaneous. Also the line is a little ambiguous, as the following paragraph mentions that Stormlight healed the sprain in moments. So it would be reasonable to interpret Kaladin as meaning he would be left with broken bones if not for the healing power of Stormlight I figure stormlight healing appears to get better and better each oath that a radiant progresses through. I imagine by 5th ideal it will be better. I agree that the increased durability of pewter is a unique thing to pewter. There is undoubtedly a surge where a radiant can replicate it coming up in a book but stormlight baseline is not going to give the increased durability. I believe that the durability also ramps up when using duralumin for pewter as well. When Vin pops a guys head with a headbutt her head did not also suffer trauma. I believe that duralumin burning pewter doesn't just give a massive jolt of strength but also compresses all of the durability that person would have had and gives a huge jump in that as well. Hence my stated tactics of tapping strength/ iron/ steel all at the same time as a duralumin burn of pewter (maybe you don't need the duralumin and pewter alone would be fine) to stick your hand through the shardplate and rip out the still beating heart of your opponent Elijah Mikaelson style. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 37 minutes ago, therunner said: And yeah, Fullborn with F-steel even when just tapping at 10x rate would have enough of advantage to kill Windrunner when combined with other powers, I thought we reached that conclusion like ~5-6 pages back? One would think! (this has got to be the longest thread of back and forth discussions I've ever been on before!) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I figure stormlight healing appears to get better and better each oath that a radiant progresses through. I imagine by 5th ideal it will be better. I agree that the increased durability of pewter is a unique thing to pewter. There is undoubtedly a surge where a radiant can replicate it coming up in a book but stormlight baseline is not going to give the increased durability. It might get better, but it seems unlikely to get to Gold Compounding levels. Maybe a 5th Ideal Radiant with Progression but not any others. I would guess Tension could increase durability if any Surge can. 5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: One would think! (this has got to be the longest thread of back and forth discussions I've ever been on before!) Oh have you not seen the Scadrial vs Roshar megathread from a couple years back? It was like thirty pages or something of back and forth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 29 minutes ago, therunner said: We saw exactly only Kaladin and Dalinar catch a Shardblade. And both of them are among the greatest non-immortal fighters in Cosmere, and both are Invstested by that point. And even then, per Zahel it basically only works if the swing is directly overhead, and relatively slow. Also Dalinar at that point has budding connection to Stormfather already, so he is of 1st Oath effectively, and Kaladin was on 2nd Oath by then, so neither were a regular person. Dalinar is not. He didn't swear any Ideal. He only had visions from Stormfather, which aren't part of hum being a Bondsmith (SF sent them to few other people before sending them to Dalinar). 29 minutes ago, therunner said: So no, regular uninvested people can't catch a Shardblade. Wrong. It's a known move in fight agains a Shardbearer, it has a name, it means it was used as well in history. And Dalinar was not invested. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: Dodge it maybe, but even that is a stretch, regular people can't dodge regular sword strikes, much less one's far faster. I can provide you with gifs from HEMA, like I did once before to prove my point, but dodging a sword is very possible. Dodging a Shardblade by non invested people was presented on pages, I'm sure of it. 37 minutes ago, therunner said: Empty chromium piercing could be an option, however that leaves something Windrunner can Reverse Lash (they can affect living beings, pierced metal won't be a problem). So Windrunner would quickly rip them off. Distance is a factor. They pierce the body, they can resist it like with allomancy to some degree. It would be possible, but they won't rip it from 100 meters away. 37 minutes ago, therunner said: Up to a point, see WoB . I would consider tapping enough brass to start melting things to be beyond that point (not to mention they would melt their own metalminds first, and lose access to their stores). Gold melts at only ~1000 Celsius, so Fullborn can never become much warmer than that. That's what I meant by ridiculous temperatures. 39 minutes ago, therunner said: By that point Syl was already nearby though, and he was supernaturally skilled. I mean it is basically unheard of for regular person to kill Shardbearer (i.e. Kaladin is the first and last person we know has done it ever). Ignoring the killing part, he was able to dodge the blade. But text gives me the impression that he might be invested with Stormlight. 41 minutes ago, therunner said: And yeah, Fullborn with F-steel even when just tapping at 10x rate would have enough of advantage to kill Windrunner when combined with other powers, I thought we reached that conclusion like ~5-6 pages back? Sometimes I don't know what we're talking about here so I'm just going with the flow 29 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: They do get protected but by how much? I would imagine metalminds on the skin heated to a few hundred degrees would start to require the fullborn healing themselves No. Why? Their body has the same temperature, no burns would be made as there is no temperature difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 5 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Oh have you not seen the Scadrial vs Roshar megathread from a couple years back? It was like thirty pages or something of back and forth Uhhhhhhh. No, I can't say that I did see it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 minute ago, Trusk'our said: Uhhhhhhh. No, I can't say that I did see it. You should see the recent Scadrial vs Roshar post TLM, we did 13 pages before it was closed Very heated back and forth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: Uhhhhhhh. No, I can't say that I did see it. 2 minutes ago, alder24 said: You should see the recent Scadrial vs Roshar post TLM, we did 13 pages before it was closed Very heated back and forth. Yeah, that's the one I was probably thinking about and remembered it as an exaggerated amount of pages. But it sure felt like 30 pages 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, alder24 said: You should see the recent Scadrial vs Roshar post TLM, we did 13 pages before it was closed Very heated back and forth. I'm glad that this thread isn't like that! Very difficult to a more complete and accurate conclusion of a situation when no one else is willing to be open minded. Admittedly, when someone else tries to dig in and prove their own point, I feel obligated to do the same. I should probably change that about myself rather than using that as an excuse though But at least I guess I have something to work towards now! Edited March 14, 2023 by Trusk'our 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 minute ago, Trusk'our said: Very difficult to a more complete and accurate conclusion of a situation when no one else is willing to be open minded. Admittedly, when someone else tries to dig in and prove their own point, I feel obligated to do the same. I should probably change that about myself rather than using that as an excuse though Hey! It's me you're describing! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendelian Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 Compelling thought. One slight flaw is that the Windrunner will have both Plate and Blade, both of which will make it significantly more difficult for the fullborn to win. Although, if neither one knew the other’s powers and were just told to kill one another, I find it difficult to believe that the Windrunner would try to kill the fullborn without prompting, due to the First Ideal. But if the Windrunner were to attack quickly, I think they may be able to catch the fullborn off guard. Ultimately, I feel like the Windrunner could win, but it would be close. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 2 minutes ago, Kendelian said: Compelling thought. One slight flaw is that the Windrunner will have both Plate and Blade, both of which will make it significantly more difficult for the fullborn to win. Although, if neither one knew the other’s powers and were just told to kill one another, I find it difficult to believe that the Windrunner would try to kill the fullborn without prompting, due to the First Ideal. But if the Windrunner were to attack quickly, I think they may be able to catch the fullborn off guard. Ultimately, I feel like the Windrunner could win, but it would be close. Welcome to the 17th Shard! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 38 minutes ago, StanLemon said: It's definitely not on the level of Gold Compounding as there are plentiful examples of Radiants needing time to heal that Miles just never needs. Frankly this line seems to be a bit of an outlier compared to the rest of the series as there are no examples I can think of other than this that even imply that Radiants have enhanced durability and there are far more examples of the healing being not nigh instantaneous. Also the line is a little ambiguous, as the following paragraph mentions that Stormlight healed the sprain in moments. So it would be reasonable to interpret Kaladin as meaning he would be left with broken bones if not for the healing power of Stormlight I think Stormlight healing is not par with Gold compounding, provided you have enough Stormlight. Gold compounding healing is just supercharged Gold Feruchemy. Stormlight healing suffuses soul seemingly, and routinely repairs cut of soul parts, which is directly stated in WoB to require a lot of stored health. I ackonwledge it is ambigous, however he is clear that he did not break any bones, he would now it happened to him when holding Stormlight previously. So either he did not break bones at all because of Stormlight, or he healed them quickly enough to not even notice they broke. Since the sprain still takes moments to heal as you note, then that leads to conclusion that Stormlight also strengthens the body. 16 minutes ago, alder24 said: Dalinar is not. He didn't swear any Ideal. He only had visions from Stormfather, which aren't part of hum being a Bondsmith (SF sent them to few other people before sending them to Dalinar). Kaladin can breathe in light from spheres, affect Windspren, all prior to bonding Syl. The budding bond clearly already grants some effects, even prior formal swearing of 1st Oath. And Dalinar swears 1st and 2nd at most few days afterwards. So he easily could have already had proto-connection at the time. Quote Wrong. It's a known move in fight agains a Shardbearer, it has a name, it means it was used as well in history. And Dalinar was not invested. No, not wrong. Zahel says that is is hail mary move that is not expected to work out, but if you are about to die you might as well. And also says that Dalinar probably only pulled it off because Szeth moved too slow. Again the only two examples are Radiant pulling it off, and proto-Bondsmith who is also the best fighter on the planet. And even then Dalinar was caught off guard that he did it successfully. Quote I can provide you with gifs from HEMA, like I did once before to prove my point, but dodging a sword is very possible. Dodging a Shardblade by non invested people was presented on pages, I'm sure of it. Please do, the few fights of HEMA I saw were fast enough that dodging was basically impossible. Since Shardblades are larger, they move faster which would make dodging even more difficult. Quote Distance is a factor. They pierce the body, they can resist it like with allomancy to some degree. It would be possible, but they won't rip it from 100 meters away. Piercing the body won't be much of a factor, since Reverse lashing can affect body anyway. From 100 meters probably not, but from ~10-20 meters it could be easily pulled out. And since leeching is touch based, well, the piercing's won't be in Fullborns body by the time he is near Windrunner. (minus F-steel as usual). Quote That's what I meant by ridiculous temperatures. Thought so, just wanted to clarify it. Quote Ignoring the killing part, he was able to dodge the blade. But text gives me the impression that he might be invested with Stormlight. I think he was. Also, Kaladin is all kinds of weird (see the atium-like effect he feels when fighting in the duel in WoR). Quote Sometimes I don't know what we're talking about here so I'm just going with the flow Fair, I was just surprised to see that line of argumentation Quote No. Why? Their body has the same temperature, no burns would be made as there is no temperature difference. If Gold healing would take form of replenihing the burned the tissue with new 'cold' tissue, there would be temperature difference and heat flow. Depends on how tapping Brass and Gold at the same times works. 7 minutes ago, alder24 said: You should see the recent Scadrial vs Roshar post TLM, we did 13 pages before it was closed Very heated back and forth. 4 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Yeah, that's the one I was probably thinking about and remembered it as an exaggerated amount of pages. But it sure felt like 30 pages 3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I'm glad that this thread isn't like that! Very difficult to a more complete and accurate conclusion of a situation when no one else is willing to be open minded. Admittedly, when someone else tries to dig in and prove their own point, I feel obligated to do the same. I should probably change that about myself rather than using that as an excuse though Guess I have something to work towards now! Ah, the post-Row thread was far more glorious, 73 pages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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