alder24 Posted March 10, 2023 Posted March 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, therunner said: The problem with that line of reasoning is that Mistborn has only two hands, whereas Radiant can carry a couple of pouches of spheres. So, sacrifice Stormlight from two pouches to irreparably damage Mistborn's hands (and cause quite a bit of pain) can be valid tactic. I see that problem too. It all depends on how fast chromium leaching can be when powered by the Dor. Because other powers get extremely more powerful, it is reasonable to assume that leeching also is more powerful and drains far more per second than normally. So at best the damage done by Division would be minimal, as leeching would be just so much faster. But that's speculative, so let's not argue in that direction.
Frustration Posted March 10, 2023 Author Posted March 10, 2023 6 hours ago, alder24 said: Not like that, leeching when Radiant touches Mistborn to use Division. Division will work on Mistborn, but chromium would suck Radiant's investiture so quickly with this power, that it's likely Mistborn will drain him entirely before he does any serious damage to him. Mistborn, you might lose a hand if Radiant touches him by the hand, but Radiant will lose all Stormlight. So it’s an advantage for Mistborn. Radiant would need to avoid touching Mistborn as chromium is his most powerful weapon when he has Dor. Why would you use division if you have a shardblade? Division is how you punish the Mistborn of leeching. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I see that problem too. It all depends on how fast chromium leaching can be when powered by the Dor. Because other powers get extremely more powerful, it is reasonable to assume that leeching also is more powerful and drains far more per second than normally. So at best the damage done by Division would be minimal, as leeching would be just so much faster. But that's speculative, so let's not argue in that direction. I'd imagine that pure investiture fueled leeching would be just as fast at draining pure investiture as Chromium would be at draining metals. But yeah, that is speculation.
alder24 Posted March 10, 2023 Posted March 10, 2023 20 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why would you use division if you have a shardblade? I don't know, your Shardblade was on the other hand when you suddenly had a brief opportunity to touch Mistborn? You enjoy causing physical pain? You love the smell of napalm cooked human flesh in the morning? No idea, it might happen. Â
IlstrawberrySeed Posted March 10, 2023 Posted March 10, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, alder24 said: Why chromium? It doesn't stop a punch in a head. Leeching while they try to use division on you might be much more effective than Division itself. Can a horseshoe trick go as fast as 200mph? I doubt. Not to mention that while doing it, you can't fight. Why? Abrasion doesn't stop force of impact. I've already talked about it on page 1. Bondsmiths just take away your Allomancy. I see plants as something deadly, and chromium would stop them growing. I could be wrong, but progression users have a big edge over mistborn.  No, but there is no reason for the radiant to be near the mistborn. Full lash one object to 2 others. RL one of them and regular lash the other. Problem solved. Didn't think about that. I brought up both points in my quote. Cannot offend, might be able to catch up. (I'm pretty sure regular horseshoe trick is upwards of 150mph, but we also don't know how increased force increases speed.) It doesn't stop full force, but it reduces the amount of time the mistborn can keep pushing to crack the plate. If they can touch you. Mistborn can stay out range in any decently sized arena. 19 hours ago, Frustration said: That's not true, Bendalloy burns incredibly quickly(burn rate is proportional to amount of investiture needed) and it is also affected by the speed factor of the bubble, so they would run out of bendalloy very quickly. The metalic arts are low investiture, that includes bendalloy. And from what is shown in the books, 5-15 times compression is regular burn rate. With savantism, 5-15 would be slower than regular burn rate, and we have lots more investiture than wayne used at the end. Edited March 10, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed
alder24 Posted March 10, 2023 Posted March 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: I see plants as something deadly, and chromium would stop them growing. I could be wrong, but progression users have a big edge over mistborn.  Possibly, but that would be a minimal amount of Stormlight, which would require a minimal amount of leeching. They would still have roughly equal amounts of investiture. Not significant to make a difference. 7 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: No, but there is no reason for the radiant to be near the mistborn. Full lash one object to 2 others. RL one of them and regular lash the other. Problem solved.  There is a reason, kill him. Lasing stones into him is hard to aim, when he moves, and has a bendalloy. 8 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: I brought up both points in my quote. Cannot offend, might be able to catch up. (I'm pretty sure regular horseshoe trick is upwards of 150mph, but we also don't know how increased force increases speed.) I doubt it. Keep in mind that is something that Vin invented, and nobody did that ever before. Elend couldn't replicate it perfectly. And maneuverability is very hard, you could only do turns by wide arches. 12 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: It doesn't stop full force, but it reduces the amount of time the mistborn can keep pushing to crack the plate. If the coin hit a plate and didn't crack it, pushing it more won't crack it. If the coin cracks it, then there is a crack, and the coin has no energy, as it was stopped by a plate, so pushing it more won't do anything more. If the coin gets into the crack, adhesion won't "push" it back. So I don't know what you're thinking now. 14 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: If they can touch you. Mistborn can stay out range in any decently sized arena. Open perpendicularity -> go to CR -> play with "out of range" Mistborn and his connections Heal with the power provided by open perpendicularity, or refill your gems constantly. Mistborn has no way of killing a Bondsmith.  @Frustration Mistborn has Dor, he doesn't need metals, he has other source for power. Like Vin when drawing in Mists, or Elend when fighting Marsh. So Mistborn would run out of "bendalloy" when he would run out of Dor. How fast it would be, no idea, most likely not that fast. But still it would consume more Dor than steel. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009) Â
Frustration Posted March 10, 2023 Author Posted March 10, 2023 21 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: The metalic arts are low investiture, that includes bendalloy. And from what is shown in the books, 5-15 times compression is regular burn rate. With savantism, 5-15 would be slower than regular burn rate, and we have lots more investiture than wayne used at the end. The burn rate is affected by the time dialation. Say they have enough investiture to make a bubble for 10 minutes, and the bubble has a compression factor of 10, to an outside observer you would run out in one minute. 4 minutes ago, alder24 said:  @Frustration Mistborn has Dor, he doesn't need metals, he has other source for power. Like Vin when drawing in Mists, or Elend when fighting Marsh. So Mistborn would run out of "bendalloy" when he would run out of Dor. How fast it would be, no idea, most likely not that fast. But still it would consume more Dor than steel.  Reveal hidden contents Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)  I know, I'm saying that speed bubbles require a lot of investiture to work, and using bendalloys burn speed as evidence
IlstrawberrySeed Posted March 10, 2023 Posted March 10, 2023 41 minutes ago, alder24 said: Possibly, but that would be a minimal amount of Stormlight, which would require a minimal amount of leeching. They would still have roughly equal amounts of investiture. Not significant to make a difference.  There is a reason, kill him. Lasing stones into him is hard to aim, when he moves, and has a bendalloy. I doubt it. Keep in mind that is something that Vin invented, and nobody did that ever before. Elend couldn't replicate it perfectly. And maneuverability is very hard, you could only do turns by wide arches. If the coin hit a plate and didn't crack it, pushing it more won't crack it. If the coin cracks it, then there is a crack, and the coin has no energy, as it was stopped by a plate, so pushing it more won't do anything more. If the coin gets into the crack, adhesion won't "push" it back. So I don't know what you're thinking now. Open perpendicularity -> go to CR -> play with "out of range" Mistborn and his connections Heal with the power provided by open perpendicularity, or refill your gems constantly. Mistborn has no way of killing a Bondsmith.  @Frustration Mistborn has Dor, he doesn't need metals, he has other source for power. Like Vin when drawing in Mists, or Elend when fighting Marsh. So Mistborn would run out of "bendalloy" when he would run out of Dor. How fast it would be, no idea, most likely not that fast. But still it would consume more Dor than steel.  Reveal hidden contents Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)  Really? I thought progression took several spheres. Not if he is stuck between 4-5 reverse lashings. Bendalloy/cadmium is an issue for rebounding, but if you lash toward him with full lashings connecting it to a reverse lashing, It shouldn't matter, because once one hits, you get to hit him any number of times via the RL. And just dropping the shardblade through the bubble should be effective. 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: The burn rate is affected by the time dialation. Say they have enough investiture to make a bubble for 10 minutes, and the bubble has a compression factor of 10, to an outside observer you would run out in one minute. I know, I'm saying that speed bubbles require a lot of investiture to work, and using bendalloys burn speed as evidence That is what you meant, yeah, the infinite loop of temporal metal idea - that isn't really an issue, since you can use just the amount you need, but it is something to keep in mind.
Frustration Posted March 11, 2023 Author Posted March 11, 2023 You know what? Open the floodgates. Let's allow fabrials, medallions and primer cubes. 1
therunner he/him Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 31 minutes ago, Frustration said: You know what? Open the floodgates. Let's allow fabrials, medallions and primer cubes. Alright, Let's goooo So, step one, give suppressor fabrial to Radiant. Step two, Radiant wins once they come nearby, since Mistborn now lacks powers. The complication being that suppresor fabrial would have to be Tuned to the proper kind of Investiture Mistborn is using. Second option, blood attractor fabrial. Though it would have to be fueled by a large amount of Investiture to overcome the fact that Mistborn is now heavily Invested (if it would be even possible). And, I don't have much time to think about more possibilities, or how to counter the above (though I am sure there are ways) 1
alder24 Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: You know what? Open the floodgates. Let's allow fabrials, medallions and primer cubes. Oh god, why? I'm not mentally prepared for this... So I'm not gonna give F-steel medallion for Mistborn yet, but F-gold medallion would be very handy and allow him to finnaly heal few cuts from a Shardblade. And to be fair I love the combination of F-zinc + A-electrum, even if the effects would be limited compared to a Fullborn, but having 2/3 times faster brain processing during a fight is a huge advantage + future vision of yourself. So medallion gives those 2 powers, as I think 3 metals in a medallion is a limit for now (nicrosil+gold+zinc, correct me if I'm wrong). I'm just gonna focus on primer cubes instead. Aluminum charged primer cube is a huge advantage for Mistborn. Reverse lashings would stop working, all surges as well, all fabrials too including suppressor fabrial @therunner, so even if you have that Tower surge-suppressor fabrial, A-cube would make it obsolete. It could potentially disturbed a living Shardplate, and prevent Radiant from summoning his Shardblade. Keep in mind this is aluminum we're talking about, so it's effects would be full, and not like those in the Tower, Ideal 5 Radiant would still be fully affected by aluminum. Then use another Chromium charged cube, and it would drain Stormlight from lashings, fabrials and exposed Radiant. It would prevent Shardplate healing. And those both cubes would last for hours, judging from Marasi powering her cube with a fraction of the power of Perpendicularity. So he can easily charge them to last for 5 minutes without losing much power. So if a Mistborn aimed those cubes well, struck a Radiant, and pushed metals from a distance, avoiding being trapped in cube's area, into his plate to crack it and destroy some fragments, then Radiant would die, unable to heal.
Frustration Posted March 11, 2023 Author Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: So I'm not gonna give F-steel medallion for Mistborn yet, but F-gold medallion would be very handy and allow him to finnaly heal few cuts from a Shardblade. And to be fair I love the combination of F-zinc + A-electrum, even if the effects would be limited compared to a Fullborn, but having 2/3 times faster brain processing during a fight is a huge advantage + future vision of yourself. So medallion gives those 2 powers, as I think 3 metals in a medallion is a limit for now (nicrosil+gold+zinc, correct me if I'm wrong). 3 is the limit but the nicrosil portion is not included, so medallions that let you store weight and tap heat are only 2 metals not 3. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I'm just gonna focus on primer cubes instead. Aluminum charged primer cube is a huge advantage for Mistborn. Reverse lashings would stop working, all surges as well, all fabrials too including suppressor fabrial @therunner, so even if you have that Tower surge-suppressor fabrial, A-cube would make it obsolete. This brings up an interesting question, what happens when two suppression devices overlap? 1 hour ago, alder24 said:  t could potentially disturbed a living Shardplate, and prevent Radiant from summoning his Shardblade. Keep in mind this is aluminum we're talking about, so it's effects would be full, and not like those in the Tower, Ideal 5 Radiant would still be fully affected by aluminum. Why would they be more powerful than the Sibling? Just by investiture levels it doesn't make sense. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: And those both cubes would last for hours, judging from Marasi powering her cube with a fraction of the power of Perpendicularity. I don't see a reason why they would last longer than they would when the Mistborn used them. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: So if a Mistborn aimed those cubes well, struck a Radiant, and pushed metals from a distance, avoiding being trapped in cube's area, into his plate to crack it and destroy some fragments, then Radiant would die, unable to heal. Would they be able to shoot coins into a suppression area?
alder24 Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 24 minutes ago, Frustration said: This brings up an interesting question, what happens when two suppression devices overlap? Aluminum wins, because it's aluminum. Suppression fabrial doesn't contain aluminum as far as I remember. But there is a problem with suppression fabrials - what would it suppress? Infusing it with Voidlight and using enlightenment sprens suppress Stormlight and surges, but not Voidlight and Fused. Using Stormlight/Towerlight and the Sibling, suppress Voidlight and Fused, not Radiants. So how would you make a fabrial that suppress Mistborn who uses the Dor? It's not just that simple like taking Tower fabrial. 29 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why would they be more powerful than the Sibling? Just by investiture levels it doesn't make sense. Because it's aluminum allomancy. Aluminum blocks all investiture and invested arts. Tower fabrial is made out of garnets, Fused one is made out of the same gems and unknown metal or alloy, likely tin. I doubt it has aluminum wires as those would block the signal of a fabrial in that direction. It does perfect sense why Aluminum would do that. And based on Ars Arcanum, suppression fabrial would be categorized as a diminishing fabrial, it doesn't fully block use of investiture. 31 minutes ago, Frustration said: I don't see a reason why they would last longer than they would when the Mistborn used them. Because this is not a regular Mistborn, this is a Dor powered one, every metal he uses is far more powerful than regular, and he has more power than regular Mistborn to use. Marasi created a bubble with the perpendicularity that lasted hours, and there were dozens of Mistings using that perpendicularity. So it can last longer, and would be far more powerful (bigger range and stronger effects) than a normal Mistborn powered cube. 34 minutes ago, Frustration said: Would they be able to shoot coins into a suppression area? Because he start pushing coins, when they are outside of the area, and gain momentum, speed and energy, so when coins fly into the area, and he cannot push on them anymore, they already are fast and destructive. They wouldn't just drop into a ground, they have momentum. Unlike a Windrunner, who goes 300mhp aiming at the Mistborn and flying into an aluminum cube area. His lashing is blocked, and he is attracted to the ground again, causing him to  smash into it with a colossal speed. Not a great day for Windrunner.
Frustration Posted March 11, 2023 Author Posted March 11, 2023 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Aluminum wins, because it's aluminum. Suppression fabrial doesn't contain aluminum as far as I remember. It's not just the effects of aluminum, it is specifically aluminum Allomancy, and you wouldn't be able to burn aluminum if you Allomancy was suppressed, therefore there is nothing special about aluminum primer cubes. 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: But there is a problem with suppression fabrials - what would it suppress? Infusing it with Voidlight and using enlightenment sprens suppress Stormlight and surges, but not Voidlight and Fused. Using Stormlight/Towerlight and the Sibling, suppress Voidlight and Fused, not Radiants. So how would you make a fabrial that suppress Mistborn who uses the Dor? It's not just that simple like taking Tower fabrial. It also suppressed Lifts lifelight, though to a lesser extent, I'd imagine it's more Intent, and whatnot than what type of Investiture is used. 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: Because it's aluminum allomancy. Aluminum blocks all investiture and invested arts. It's aluminum Allomancy, not aluminum, and secondhand aluminum Allomancy at that. 19 minutes ago, alder24 said: Tower fabrial is made out of garnets, Fused one is made out of the same gems and unknown metal or alloy, likely tin. The metal is a manifestation of spren, not a normal metal. 22 minutes ago, alder24 said: It does perfect sense why Aluminum would do that. It really doesn't, aluminum doesn't make shardblades dismiss, or break shardplate apart. It doesn't stop you from healing unless it is in the wound, you could completely coat yourself in aluminum and would still be able to lash yourself. 25 minutes ago, alder24 said: And based on Ars Arcanum, suppression fabrial would be categorized as a diminishing fabrial, it doesn't fully block use of investiture. It does block the use, unless you are more powerful than it is. 26 minutes ago, alder24 said: Because this is not a regular Mistborn, this is a Dor powered one, every metal he uses is far more powerful than regular, and he has more power than regular Mistborn to use. But it doesn't last longer. 27 minutes ago, alder24 said: Marasi created a bubble with the perpendicularity that lasted hours, Did it last hours or just a few minutes that appeared to be hours to those outside? 28 minutes ago, alder24 said: Unlike a Windrunner, who goes 300mhp aiming at the Mistborn and flying into an aluminum cube area. His lashing is blocked, and he is attracted to the ground again, causing him to  smash into it with a colossal speed. Not a great day for Windrunner. They are powerful enough to push through.
therunner he/him Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Oh god, why? I'm not mentally prepared for this... Oh the sights we are gonna see Quote I'm just gonna focus on primer cubes instead. Aluminum charged primer cube is a huge advantage for Mistborn. Reverse lashings would stop working, all surges as well, all fabrials too including suppressor fabrial @therunner, so even if you have that Tower surge-suppressor fabrial, A-cube would make it obsolete. It could potentially disturbed a living Shardplate, and prevent Radiant from summoning his Shardblade. Keep in mind this is aluminum we're talking about, so it's effects would be full, and not like those in the Tower, Ideal 5 Radiant would still be fully affected by aluminum. A-Aluminum disrupts only kinetic Investiture, so while Surges would stop working (and fabrials) Shardplate would work (and might possibly shield Radiant in plate). Plus the effect would be temporary, and range on those cubes is only several feets, so if Radiant is running around holding the suppressor fabrial, Radiant still has advantage or can simply move out of range of primer cube. Quote Then use another Chromium charged cube, and it would drain Stormlight from lashings, fabrials and exposed Radiant. It would prevent Shardplate healing. Radiant would be shielded by Shardplate, so they would not get drained. Quote And those both cubes would last for hours, judging from Marasi powering her cube with a fraction of the power of Perpendicularity. So he can easily charge them to last for 5 minutes without losing much power. Yeah, but what is stopping Radiant from running outside of area of effect of cubes? 35 minutes ago, alder24 said: Aluminum wins, because it's aluminum. Suppression fabrial doesn't contain aluminum as far as I remember. It's not aluminum the metal, but Allomantic effect of aluminum, which is far less encompasing and powerful. Quote But there is a problem with suppression fabrials - what would it suppress? Infusing it with Voidlight and using enlightenment sprens suppress Stormlight and surges, but not Voidlight and Fused. Using Stormlight/Towerlight and the Sibling, suppress Voidlight and Fused, not Radiants. So how would you make a fabrial that suppress Mistborn who uses the Dor? It's not just that simple like taking Tower fabrial. I think the Voidlight/storlmigh/towerlight are only power source, but it is the make up of the fabrial which determines what powers/Investiture it suppresses. So it would require some prep time on the part of Radiant to have one that suppresses Dor. Quote Because it's aluminum allomancy. Aluminum blocks all investiture and invested arts. Tower fabrial is made out of garnets, Fused one is made out of the same gems and unknown metal or alloy, likely tin. I doubt it has aluminum wires as those would block the signal of a fabrial in that direction. It does perfect sense why Aluminum would do that. Aluminum blocks all Investiture and Invested arts, but aluminum allomancy does not. It would still be alomantic effect, so sufficiently powerful Investiture could overcome it, as is typical. Quote Unlike a Windrunner, who goes 300mhp aiming at the Mistborn and flying into an aluminum cube area. His lashing is blocked, and he is attracted to the ground again, causing him to  smash into it with a colossal speed. Not a great day for Windrunner. Unless the suppressor fabrial effect would overpower the aluminum cube area. But yeah, good tactic. Question though, is the Mistborn standing in that aluminum cube area? 1
alder24 Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 Just now, Frustration said: It's not just the effects of aluminum, it is specifically aluminum Allomancy, and you wouldn't be able to burn aluminum if you Allomancy was suppressed, therefore there is nothing special about aluminum primer cubes. Why would Mistborn be unable to burn aluminum? 1 minute ago, Frustration said: It also suppressed Lifts lifelight, though to a lesser extent, I'd imagine it's more Intent, and whatnot than what type of Investiture is used. I don't agree with it. Type of investiture used in a fabrial plays a role in it. 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: It's aluminum Allomancy, not aluminum, and secondhand aluminum Allomancy at that. Which would prevent them from using powers: Spoiler Rodrigo What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades? Brandon Sanderson We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones? *Matt affirms* So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense? But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that. You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly. [...] Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah. The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)  5 minutes ago, Frustration said: It really doesn't, aluminum doesn't make shardblades dismiss, or break shardplate apart. It doesn't stop you from healing unless it is in the wound, you could completely coat yourself in aluminum and would still be able to lash yourself. It's aluminum Allomancy, that stops all powers from being used or having an effect on you. Spoiler Kurkistan If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold? *laughter* [clarification on the question] Brandon Sanderson They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too. Kurkistan So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging- Brandon Sanderson Sure. Kurkistan That just kind of slowly takes over your soul? Brandon Sanderson Sure. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) If there is an area affected by aluminum allomancy it would prevent all powers from being used, including summoning a Shardblade. What does a hemalurgic aluminum spike does - removes all powers. 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: But it doesn't last longer. But he can power it for longer... 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: Did it last hours or just a few minutes that appeared to be hours to those outside? Most likely both: Quote She was left with one final impression from the other side. Shock.Judging by how much energy she’d put into those grenades, it would be awhile before the army discovered what had happened  13 minutes ago, Frustration said: They are powerful enough to push through. Aluminum allomancy is not a suppression fabrial. They can't push through aluminum.  4 minutes ago, therunner said: A-Aluminum disrupts only kinetic Investiture, so while Surges would stop working (and fabrials) Shardplate would work (and might possibly shield Radiant in plate). Yes it would, I'm not disputing it. Healing of it would stop. 5 minutes ago, therunner said: Plus the effect would be temporary, and range on those cubes is only several feets, so if Radiant is running around holding the suppressor fabrial, Radiant still has advantage or can simply move out of range of primer cube. Yup 5 minutes ago, therunner said: Radiant would be shielded by Shardplate, so they would not get drained. Yes, unless plate is cracked or has broken segments. 6 minutes ago, therunner said: Yeah, but what is stopping Radiant from running outside of area of effect of cubes? Nothing. But it creates obstacles on a battlefield, which Radiant has to avoid. Mistborn too (unless there is a way to target only specific types of investiture which is likely, but we don't have that now - maybe era 4). 7 minutes ago, therunner said: It's not aluminum the metal, but Allomantic effect of aluminum, which is far less encompasing and powerful. It does a lot, another WoB: Spoiler Douglas What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know? Brandon Sanderson Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)  10 minutes ago, therunner said: I think the Voidlight/storlmigh/towerlight are only power source, but it is the make up of the fabrial which determines what powers/Investiture it suppresses. So it would require some prep time on the part of Radiant to have one that suppresses Dor. So why was the Tower fabrial so easily reversed? All Raboniel infused it with Voidlight. 12 minutes ago, therunner said: Aluminum blocks all Investiture and Invested arts, but aluminum allomancy does not. It would still be alomantic effect, so sufficiently powerful Investiture could overcome it, as is typical. Even if, Dor powered Mistborn would be able to make it powerful enough so Radiant would not be able to overcome it. 14 minutes ago, therunner said: Question though, is the Mistborn standing in that aluminum cube area? If he is, he can't use powers, so no. He's throwing them. Primar cubes work on him as well unfortunately.  15 minutes ago, therunner said: Oh the sights we are gonna see My brain is already melting Â
therunner he/him Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: It's aluminum Allomancy, that stops all powers from being used or having an effect on you.  Reveal hidden contents Kurkistan If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold? *laughter* [clarification on the question] Brandon Sanderson They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too. Kurkistan So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging- Brandon Sanderson Sure. Kurkistan That just kind of slowly takes over your soul? Brandon Sanderson Sure. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) If there is an area affected by aluminum allomancy it would prevent all powers from being used, including summoning a Shardblade. What does a hemalurgic aluminum spike does - removes all powers. Aluminum allomancy is not a suppression fabrial. They can't push through aluminum. My brain is already melting  It is still Invested Art though, not pure aluminum effect. And as we have seen, more powerful Investiture can overpower other Invested effects (piercing copperclouds, inability to heal Shardblade to spine, power-through suppresion fabrial), so depending on how aluminum allomancy can be overcome. Would 5th Ideal Radiant be enough? I don't know, but since 4th Ideal could overcome partially corrupted Sibling suppresion, I would wager that at least to some extent 5th Ideal Radiant could. It depends on what the Investiture does, would it make the effect longer, or could you make the effect stronger? Aluminum as metal effect is not the same as effect of Aluminum in Invested Art. Quote Yes, unless plate is cracked or has broken segments. I think it would have to have completely broken section, the shielding effect of Investiture is a field effect, so it would cover cracks. Quote Nothing. But it creates obstacles on a battlefield, which Radiant has to avoid. Mistborn too (unless there is a way to target only specific types of investiture which is likely, but we don't have that now - maybe era 4). Yep, both of them would have to avoid it. And neither could easily detect it (only Mistborn would now where they threw it initially). I don't think excluding specific types of Investiture would be possible, not with simple primer cubes. More advanced Scadrial fabrials could possibly achieve such effect. Quote It does a lot, another WoB:  Reveal hidden contents Douglas What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know? Brandon Sanderson Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012) While cool, it does not show it is as overpowering effect as aluminum the metal. In fact the opposite, clearly you need extreme skill/amount of aluminum to get more powerful effects. Quote So why was the Tower fabrial so easily reversed? All Raboniel infused it with Voidlight. Raboniel is Fused with Soulcasting, for all we know she stared the process of Unmaking the Sibling. In fact I think that is what Sibling states, that if the final node is undone they would be completely Unmade. And Sibling has some measure of control over the fabrials in the Tower, so that could have played a role as well. So it was not simple infusion of Voidlight, but partial corruption of Sibling that would have reversed the suppressor fabrial. Corrupted Spren also seemingly 'only' have Odium's investiture in them, and yet they have dramatically different effects. Quote Even if, Dor powered Mistborn would be able to make it powerful enough so Radiant would not be able to overcome it. If more powerful, then shorter lasting. And Radiant on 5th Ideal is strong enough to possibly power-through suppression generated by godspren, which should have more Investiture available then Mistborn with Dor. Quote If he is, he can't use powers, so no. He's throwing them. Primar cubes work on him as well unfortunately. So, if the primer cube lands in suppressor before turning on, then primer cube is rendered inert no? Since it would be suppressed? Additionally, orders with Gravitation can then easily approach from above, as primer cube won't stay in air long, limiting just ground to being affected. Which reminds me, placing multiple primer cubes with Aluminum would hinder Mistborn mobility, as they could not use any metal within those areas as anchors. Edited March 11, 2023 by therunner 1
Frustration Posted March 11, 2023 Author Posted March 11, 2023 29 minutes ago, alder24 said: Why would Mistborn be unable to burn aluminum? If their Allomancy was suppressed they wouldn't be able to use it. And would this have the same reaction to aluminum that any normal person would. 30 minutes ago, alder24 said: I don't agree with it. Type of investiture used in a fabrial plays a role in it. A role yes, I just don't think it's the main factor. 31 minutes ago, alder24 said: Which would prevent them from using powers:  Reveal hidden contents Rodrigo What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades? Brandon Sanderson We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones? *Matt affirms* So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense? But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that. You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly. [...] Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah. The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)  It's aluminum Allomancy, that stops all powers from being used or having an effect on you.  Reveal hidden contents Kurkistan If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold? *laughter* [clarification on the question] Brandon Sanderson They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too. Kurkistan So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging- Brandon Sanderson Sure. Kurkistan That just kind of slowly takes over your soul? Brandon Sanderson Sure. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) If there is an area affected by aluminum allomancy it would prevent all powers from being used, including summoning a Shardblade. What does a hemalurgic aluminum spike does - removes all powers. Aluminum allomancy is not a suppression fabrial. They can't push through aluminum. That's the same thing as a suppression fabrial. Unless you believe it to be absolute, in which case stabbing a vessel with an aluminum spike would destroy their entire shard, which makes no sense. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: But he can power it for longer... No? Where are you getting duration from? It only shows a power increase. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Most likely both: That doesn't indicate that it lasted longer for them then Cadmium would have, only that the compression factor was greater. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Aluminum allomancy is not a suppression fabrial. They can't push through aluminum. Source? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: So why was the Tower fabrial so easily reversed? All Raboniel infused it with Voidlight. She also had Transformation, which the Sibling referenced as relevant. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Even if, Dor powered Mistborn would be able to make it powerful enough so Radiant would not be able to overcome it. How are they more powerful than the Sibling? 1
alder24 Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, therunner said: I think it would have to have completely broken section, the shielding effect of Investiture is a field effect, so it would cover cracks. Does it? Cracks in a segment are enough to push a spear and hurt the body behind, so I would argue that investiture would very slowly be leeched through cracks in a plate. 1 hour ago, therunner said: Yep, both of them would have to avoid it. And neither could easily detect it (only Mistborn would now where they threw it initially). Mistborn can, A-bronze. 1 hour ago, therunner said: Raboniel is Fused with Soulcasting, for all we know she stared the process of Unmaking the Sibling. I realized when writing that post that she can unmake sprens, and somehow I corrected only half of the sentence. You're right. 1 hour ago, therunner said: Corrupted Spren also seemingly 'only' have Odium's investiture in them, and yet they have dramatically different effects. Do they? Does Glys have only Odium investiture in it, or is it a combination of Odium/Honor/Cultivation? I don't think he could create the Truthwatcher bond if it was the first option. 1 hour ago, therunner said: So, if the primer cube lands in suppressor before turning on, then primer cube is rendered inert no? Since it would be suppressed? Yes, unless cube has enough investiture to overcome suppression. Â 1 hour ago, Frustration said: If their Allomancy was suppressed they wouldn't be able to use it. And would this have the same reaction to aluminum that any normal person would. Supression fabrial has the room sized area of effect. So he can just step outside. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: That's the same thing as a suppression fabrial. Unless you believe it to be absolute, in which case stabbing a vessel with an aluminum spike would destroy their entire shard, which makes no sense. It doesn't make sense, because you would need a huge spike for it, like a planet size spike. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Where are you getting duration from? It only shows a power increase. Does it? I thought charging it gives it the same strength based on allomantic strength, and the longer you charge it the longer it lasts. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: How are they more powerful than the Sibling? Because Sibling is limited by the size of the gems. Sibling's effect is mostly the same as Fused fabrial effect (as being 4th ideal overcomes it)Â . So Sibling only makes the area larger. Aluminum allomancy is limited by the source of the power, so Dor power aluminum (which is liquid, much denser than gas) would be stronger. Â 1 hour ago, therunner said: It is still Invested Art though, not pure aluminum effect. And as we have seen, more powerful Investiture can overpower other Invested effects (piercing copperclouds, inability to heal Shardblade to spine, power-through suppresion fabrial), so depending on how aluminum allomancy can be overcome. Would 5th Ideal Radiant be enough? I don't know, but since 4th Ideal could overcome partially corrupted Sibling suppresion, I would wager that at least to some extent 5th Ideal Radiant could. It depends on what the Investiture does, would it make the effect longer, or could you make the effect stronger? Aluminum as metal effect is not the same as effect of Aluminum in Invested Art. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Source? I fully understand your points. I don't know what to think, my brain vaporized. I have to sleep on this. Aluminum allomancy burns away your metals, and being a stronger allomancer doesn't make you immune to its effects. Suppression fabrial is diminishing, which doesn't prevent, just diminishes the power, so that's why you can overcome it.
therunner he/him Posted March 11, 2023 Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 52 minutes ago, alder24 said: Does it? Cracks in a segment are enough to push a spear and hurt the body behind, so I would argue that investiture would very slowly be leeched through cracks in a plate. And yet aluminum hat is sufficient to block emotional allomancy, and someone in deadplate (or plate that is not their own) cannot use surges even if the armor has cracks. Quote Mistborn can, A-bronze. How? There is should not be any Pulses to be detected, since no powers cannot be active within the area of the primer cube? I think it would be accident kind of work like copper, that can also not be detected despite being active invested power. Quote Do they? Does Glys have only Odium investiture in it, or is it a combination of Odium/Honor/Cultivation? I don't think he could create the Truthwatcher bond if it was the first option. They have all three (Odium/Honor/Cultivation), that is what I meant. Sorry for being unclear. Quote Yes, unless cube has enough investiture to overcome suppression. Fair. Quote Supression fabrial has the room sized area of effect. So he can just step outside. Depends on the fabrial, those of Sibling covered kilometer sized building. And based on other fabrials, size of area can be changed. Quote It doesn't make sense, because you would need a huge spike for it, like a planet size spike. I don't think size of spike matter for such purpose, you cannot really destroy Shard via aluminum spike, no matter the size. Quote Does it? I thought charging it gives it the same strength based on allomantic strength, and the longer you charge it the longer it lasts. Good question, I need to re-read cube usage parts. Quote Because Sibling is limited by the size of the gems. Sibling's effect is mostly the same as Fused fabrial effect (as being 4th ideal overcomes it)Â . So Sibling only makes the area larger. Aluminum allomancy is limited by the source of the power, so Dor power aluminum (which is liquid, much denser than gas) would be stronger. That is not Sibling at full power though, but Sibling pretending to be dead. All fabrials in tower barely work prior to bonding of Sibling, so it stands to reason that the suppression effect would be weaker as well. Sibling creates their own light, couple of jars of Dar are not more powerful then what Sibling can do. They would feasible be more powerful then the suppresor fabrial, but I don't think they would create suppresion effect stronger than Sibling. And we don't know if Dor is actually denser then Stormlight for this purpose. Quote I fully understand your points. I don't know what to think, my brain vaporized. I have to sleep on this. Aluminum allomancy burns away your metals, and being a stronger allomancer doesn't make you immune to its effects. Suppression fabrial is diminishing, which doesn't prevent, just diminishes the power, so that's why you can overcome it. Being stronger would not help being immune to its effects, since your aluminum allomancy is also stronger. Since for regular use Mistborn is both the source and the target, increased strength won't make them immune, since both parts of equation increase. However, once you externalize the effect there is no reason to expect that this particular Invested Art is somehow unique in that it cannot be overcome by more Investiture (or more concentrated effort) like every other Invested art in Cosmere. Edited March 11, 2023 by therunner
Frustration Posted March 11, 2023 Author Posted March 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, alder24 said: Supression fabrial has the room sized area of effect. So he can just step outside. The point is aluminum doesn't take priority. 23 minutes ago, alder24 said: It doesn't make sense, because you would need a huge spike for it, like a planet size spike. Exactly, if you have enough power your power will still exist after aluminum Hemalurgy. Likewise if you have enough power you can still use it in an aluminum bubble. 25 minutes ago, alder24 said: Does it? I thought charging it gives it the same strength based on allomantic strength, and the longer you charge it the longer it lasts. That's true, but using pure investiture to fuel your power doesn't make it last longer, it makes it more powerful. 26 minutes ago, alder24 said: Because Sibling is limited by the size of the gems. Sibling's effect is mostly the same as Fused fabrial effect (as being 4th ideal overcomes it)Â . So Sibling only makes the area larger. Aluminum allomancy is limited by the source of the power, so Dor power aluminum (which is liquid, much denser than gas) would be stronger The Siblings effect is stronger, it not only covers a much larger area it also causes the users to pass out, not just be unable to use their powers. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Aluminum allomancy burns away your metals, and being a stronger allomancer doesn't make you immune to its effects. Suppression fabrial is diminishing, which doesn't prevent, just diminishes the power, so that's why you can overcome it. It's not a diminished though. It's made from a manifestation of higher spren, so it's a surge fabrial.
therunner he/him Posted March 12, 2023 Posted March 12, 2023 If we are going completely wild, I would suggest Radiant equip themselves with a bunch of Raysium daggers to have possibility to drain Mistborn. Also some aluminum tubes, to disrupt bendalloy bubbles.
alder24 Posted March 12, 2023 Posted March 12, 2023 14 hours ago, therunner said: How? There is should not be any Pulses to be detected, since no powers cannot be active within the area of the primer cube? There is a pulse, it's like burning aluminum, which produces a pulse (Inquisitors were able to immediately tell that Vin burned aluminum, without her telling them, they sense it with bronze). Cube would produce a allomantic aluminum pulse. 14 hours ago, therunner said: That is not Sibling at full power though, but Sibling pretending to be dead. All fabrials in tower barely work prior to bonding of Sibling, so it stands to reason that the suppression effect would be weaker as well. It's speculative. 14 hours ago, therunner said: Sibling creates their own light, couple of jars of Dar are not more powerful then what Sibling can do. While they do, compared to water, with density of 997 kg/m^3, and water vapor, 0.013 kg/m^3, few jars of liquid, concentrated Dor can hold more invesiture than Sibling can use. 14 hours ago, therunner said: Being stronger would not help being immune to its effects, since your aluminum allomancy is also stronger. Since for regular use Mistborn is both the source and the target, increased strength won't make them immune, since both parts of equation increase. I know this, I was thinking about Lerasium alloy/hemalurgy to increase strength of Allomacy without aluminum. I wasn't clear enough, and I don't know now if it would work like that.  14 hours ago, Frustration said: The point is aluminum doesn't take priority. I didn't suggest that, only that he can step outside, charge the cube and throw it in a different area if suppression fabrial already work. But what would happen if the suppression fabrial is working and moving, and the cube is working and moving, both are on a path towards each other, which one would win? No idea. It would probably depend on the strength they both have. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: That's true, but using pure investiture to fuel your power doesn't make it last longer, it makes it more powerful. But when you charge it for longer it lasts longer, while being on the same power level, based on pure investiture you provide. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: The Siblings effect is stronger, it not only covers a much larger area it also causes the users to pass out, not just be unable to use their powers. Didn't the Edgedancer (not Lift, there was another) in that room also passed out? 14 hours ago, Frustration said: It's not a diminished though. It's made from a manifestation of higher spren, so it's a surge fabrial. Diminishers and Augmenters aren't categorized by a type of Spren they used, but by the effects they have (metal used in them). Half-shards are Augmenters, which possibly holds High Spren in them. Suppressor fabrial used by Fused isn't from a higher spren, as those are being Enlightened only recently, but the fabrial was developed thousands of years before True Desolation. So it's made of regular Enlightened spren.  And don't try to argue, that they would bring Sibling with them to fight Mistborn!    So about Aluminum cube, I guess I have to agree it would work like a Suppressor fabrial and could be overcome. So you're likely right. Because it is Allomancy, not just aluminum. But I can argue that Mistborn powered by liquid Dor would be able to make it strong enough to block 5th Ideal Radiant from using Surges, summoning Shardblade etc. Liquid Dor is more concentrated than Stormlight, so it can provide more powerful effects. But keep in mind, that even if a cube would take away all surges, Mistborn can't walk into cube's area, nor can he use Allomancy directly on Radiant, so he still have to come up with a crafty way to break his plate from afar, because as soon as Radiant walks out of cube's range, he can use Surges again, and his Stormlight wasn't leech at all. So aluminum cubes aren't all powerful weapons, but very handy ones, especially when countering fabrials. Chromium cubes would be better for most situations, as those get rid of Stormlight.  6 hours ago, therunner said: If we are going completely wild, I would suggest Radiant equip themselves with a bunch of Raysium daggers to have possibility to drain Mistborn. Also some aluminum tubes, to disrupt bendalloy bubbles. Bunch of? Why not one? But yeah, why not... Aluminum dueling canes and aluminum guns and rifles for Mistborn, so he can finally stop Shardblades? And add F-steel to his medallion as a final metal. Let's go steel compounding fueled by Dor!! If he can store Dor in nicrosilmind, he would be able to compound it and gain more Dor! If!  But aluminum tubes are weird. Mistborn won't create a bubble in place when that tube would pop it, so Radiant would have to manually insert a tube into the bubble, which lasts only for seconds or less, so he doesn't really have time for that in most situations.
therunner he/him Posted March 12, 2023 Posted March 12, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: There is a pulse, it's like burning aluminum, which produces a pulse (Inquisitors were able to immediately tell that Vin burned aluminum, without her telling them, they sense it with bronze). Cube would produce a allomantic aluminum pulse. Yeah, but primer cubes turn it into area of effect, so perhaps it smothers its own pulse? It probably depends on what pulses exactly are. Quote It's speculative. I think it is relatively definite, Sibling at full power at the end has more Towerlight available then when he was previously powered only by bits of Stormlight and Voidlight. Hence suppressor effect would be more powerful. Quote While they do, compared to water, with density of 997 kg/m^3, and water vapor, 0.013 kg/m^3, few jars of liquid, concentrated Dor can hold more invesiture than Sibling can use. We have no clue how density of Dor compares to density of Stormlight power wise, literally none. We expect it to be more dense yes. However, saying that jar of Dor holds more Investiture than a literal godspren that can open Perpendicularity, is ... frankly outlandish. Quote I know this, I was thinking about Lerasium alloy/hemalurgy to increase strength of Allomacy without aluminum. I wasn't clear enough, and I don't know now if it would work like that. Where is the Mistborn getting lerasium? Hemalurgy would work to improve their strength, that is definite. Though how it would interact with being powered by Dor, I don't know. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: So about Aluminum cube, I guess I have to agree it would work like a Suppressor fabrial and could be overcome. So you're likely right. Because it is Allomancy, not just aluminum. But I can argue that Mistborn powered by liquid Dor would be able to make it strong enough to block 5th Ideal Radiant from using Surges, summoning Shardblade etc. Liquid Dor is more concentrated than Stormlight, so it can provide more powerful effects. But keep in mind, that even if a cube would take away all surges, Mistborn can't walk into cube's area, nor can he use Allomancy directly on Radiant, so he still have to come up with a crafty way to break his plate from afar, because as soon as Radiant walks out of cube's range, he can use Surges again, and his Stormlight wasn't leech at all. So aluminum cubes aren't all powerful weapons, but very handy ones, especially when countering fabrials. Chromium cubes would be better for most situations, as those get rid of Stormlight. I can agree that it would block summoning Shardblade, and most likely Surges even of 5th Ideal, that sounds reasonable for the purpose of discussion. But as you say, Radiant can simply walk out, and the cubes are limited to being on the ground, and the area of effect is mostly smaller then suppresor fabrial (leeching cube seemed to have several feet of radius, so I would expect aluminum would have similar). This means that Radiants with Gravitation can mostly avoid the effects by staying in the air and on the move. Chromium would be more useful, but there is a question of how it would interact with Shardplate? It could not leech through it, so what would happen? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Bunch of? Why not one? But yeah, why not...   Yeah, I think back ups are useful And for Radiants with Gravitation, add a small rock so they can lash the raysium daggers. Quote Aluminum dueling canes and aluminum guns and rifles for Mistborn, so he can finally stop Shardblades? And add F-steel to his medallion as a final metal. Let's go steel compounding fueled by Dor!! If he can store Dor in nicrosilmind, he would be able to compound it and gain more Dor! If!  Alright, sounds fun So of course F-steel is useful, however I don't think you could compound with it. Hemalurgy no longer allows compounding due to Identity contamination, and medallions are both less 'personal' and have Identity of their own. So you would be limited to lower speeds, however still quite great Aluminum dueling canes would help, but Shardplate strength is not to be understimated. Shardblade would still act like unbreakable very shard blade Aluminum guns and rifles would be good addition, and against all but Windrunner would help to get through plate (tap F-Iron, push on bullet). Windrunner could use Reverse Lashing to defend against that. Quote But aluminum tubes are weird. Mistborn won't create a bubble in place when that tube would pop it, so Radiant would have to manually insert a tube into the bubble, which lasts only for seconds or less, so he doesn't really have time for that in most situations. I think aluminum would disrupt the bubble even after it has been placed, but admittedly that is speculative. Still they could just have a bunch of them tied to Shardplate, so it at least disrupts savantism bubbles (since those move).
alder24 Posted March 12, 2023 Posted March 12, 2023 31 minutes ago, therunner said: I think it is relatively definite, Sibling at full power at the end has more Towerlight available then when he was previously powered only by bits of Stormlight and Voidlight. Hence suppressor effect would be more powerful. 27 minutes ago, therunner said: However, saying that jar of Dor holds more Investiture than a literal godspren that can open Perpendicularity, is ... frankly outlandish. Godspren is more invested for sure, but it's not the whole Sibling that is the Suppressor fabrial, it's only 4 gems among thousands, and depending on how compressed Light can get when it's held in those gems, it could have weaker effect. It's not about the amount of investiture in Sibling, only in those 4 gems. Sibling can power them for indefinite time, but they can only put so much investiture in gems. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: I can agree that it would block summoning Shardblade, and most likely Surges even of 5th Ideal, that sounds reasonable for the purpose of discussion. But as you say, Radiant can simply walk out, and the cubes are limited to being on the ground, and the area of effect is mostly smaller then suppresor fabrial (leeching cube seemed to have several feet of radius, so I would expect aluminum would have similar). This means that Radiants with Gravitation can mostly avoid the effects by staying in the air and on the move. I agree. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: Chromium would be more useful, but there is a question of how it would interact with Shardplate? It could not leech through it, so what would happen? Prevent it from being healed if cracked. If a segment gets destroyed, it can leech a Radiant. 34 minutes ago, therunner said: Alright, sounds fun So of course F-steel is useful, however I don't think you could compound with it. Hemalurgy no longer allows compounding due to Identity contamination, and medallions are both less 'personal' and have Identity of their own. So you would be limited to lower speeds, however still quite great Even if, with F-zinc, A-electrum and F-steel giving you 2x attributes, and aluminum canes, Mistborn can easily parry most Shardblades cuts. 35 minutes ago, therunner said: Aluminum dueling canes would help, but Shardplate strength is not to be understimated. Shardblade would still act like unbreakable very shard blade Put some strong core (Tungsten?) in those dueling canes and they would withstand Plate strikes. But yeah, so multiple aluminum canes for back up (if we gonna continue giving them more, we end up giving both of them Dawnshards  ) 36 minutes ago, therunner said: Aluminum guns and rifles would be good addition, and against all but Windrunner would help to get through plate (tap F-Iron, push on bullet). Windrunner could use Reverse Lashing to defend against that. And that's when cubes come into play! With good coordination, you throw a cube at them, shoot and push bullets. They can't use reverse lashing. But it has to be done very quickly, when Windrunner isn't moving that fast. 38 minutes ago, therunner said: I think aluminum would disrupt the bubble even after it has been placed, but admittedly that is speculative. Still they could just have a bunch of them tied to Shardplate, so it at least disrupts savantism bubbles (since those move). Yes, when placed and a bubble goes through it, it would pop. But Mistborn can avoid putting bubbles in those places. Tieing them to a Shardplate is a good move. Savant bubbles can move with a Mistborn and change shapes, so it would be far harder to affect them when they are being placed.
therunner he/him Posted March 12, 2023 Posted March 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, alder24 said: Godspren is more invested for sure, but it's not the whole Sibling that is the Suppressor fabrial, it's only 4 gems among thousands, and depending on how compressed Light can get when it's held in those gems, it could have weaker effect. It's not about the amount of investiture in Sibling, only in those 4 gems. Sibling can power them for indefinite time, but they can only put so much investiture in gems. It is more than just 4 gems, the 4 gems were the add-on created by Melishi to create the shield for 'heart' of Sibling no? Additionally, at full power Sibling's suppression is strong enough to repel Unmade. Even a truckload of Dor is not going to compete with that. Quote Prevent it from being healed if cracked. If a segment gets destroyed, it can leech a Radiant. Reasonable, makes sense. Quote Even if, with F-zinc, A-electrum and F-steel giving you 2x attributes, and aluminum canes, Mistborn can easily parry most Shardblades cuts. Yep, I can see that. Quote Put some strong core (Tungsten?) in those dueling canes and they would withstand Plate strikes. But yeah, so multiple aluminum canes for back up (if we gonna continue giving them more, we end up giving both of them Dawnshards  ) And then those Dawnshards just force them to avoid one another, since they will both want to protect themselves Quote And that's when cubes come into play! With good coordination, you throw a cube at them, shoot and push bullets. They can't use reverse lashing. But it has to be done very quickly, when Windrunner isn't moving that fast. That requires quite a bit of coordination You need to time your throw just right so that Windrunner is in radius while the effect is on and you have to hit the Radiant while the effect is on. That's...a lot to ask for, you need to carefully aim both throw and shot and do that in ~1-2 seconds? Quote Yes, when placed and a bubble goes through it, it would pop. But Mistborn can avoid putting bubbles in those places. Tieing them to a Shardplate is a good move. Savant bubbles can move with a Mistborn and change shapes, so it would be far harder to affect them when they are being placed. I think the savant bubble would get popped when moving over the aluminum, since suddenly the bubble could not remain 'closed'. That is why I think aluminum tube would pop even already placed bubble.
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