Investiture fueled Mistborn Vs. Radiant

[IlstrawberrySeed]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I will repeat myself, as a clearly left comparison to the most severe known case of pewter healing timing - LIKE VIN'S WOUND IN TFE!

Radiants don't have guns. And If Windrunners/Skybreakers chose to lash rocks into a Mistborn, those would be a fist sized, not bullet size. That wound would still require days/weeks of pewter enhanced healing. Bendalloy won't help.

To heal fully, sure. But to heal enough so that it doesn't impact your abilities it shouldn't take that long. 

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

To heal fully, sure. But to heal enough so that it doesn't impact your abilities it shouldn't take that long. 

You have a hole in your body, the size of a fist. It's a miracle you are still alive to begin with, so any healing would take a lot of time to reconstruct all the tissues, muscles, organs, bones, nerves, and blood vessels. The more I think about it the more I realize that this would kill Mistborn. It's like getting hit by a cannonball. Investiture powered Mistborn might be able to walk for a few more minutes, but his body eventually will realize that he should die, and he will die. He would need days to make that wound at least "tolerable". He doesn't have that time. Pewter doesn't heal like gold. It only enhances your body's healing ability. I wish we had information of how long it took Elend to heal his wound after WoA, as this would provide a great comparison of healing factor between Vin and Elend.

Edit: WoA epilogue takes place 2 weeks after the stab (told by Sazed), and Elend just "woke up" and started walking the same day. So 2 weeks for Elend's cut wound.

Edited February 27, 2023 by alder24

[IlstrawberrySeed]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You have a hole in your body, the size of a fist. It's a miracle you are still alive to begin with, so any healing would take a lot of time to reconstruct all the tissues, muscles, organs, bones, nerves, and blood vessels. The more I think about it the more I realize that this would kill Mistborn. It's like getting hit by a cannonball. Investiture powered Mistborn might be able to walk for a few more minutes, but his body eventually will realize that he should die, and he will die. He would need days to make that wound at least "tolerable". He doesn't have that time. Pewter doesn't heal like gold. It only enhances your body's healing ability. I wish we had information of how long it took Elend to heal his wound after WoA, as this would provide a great comparison of healing factor between Vin and Elend.

Good points.

[alder24]

To add more, comparison of Vin's and Elend's wounds:

Vin, from Coppermind: "Vin spends the subsequent two weeks unconscious as she recovers from a massive wound in her side, and it takes three more months to recover fully from her ordeal at Kredik Shaw". From TFE ch 15, the wound was described by Vin as a deadly one, bleeding intensely, and it impaired her movements even with flared pewter.  In ch 16 Vin was treated by Sazed. In ch 17, after 2 weeks, she still has scrapes, bruises and cuts on her whole body from encounters with inquisitors.

Elend, WoA epilogue: also 2 weeks to wake up from a deadly cut in the guts, unknown time to fully recover. It's likely that Elend was also treated by Sazed, as he was there. If not, as the Emperor he had the best surgeons in the city.

Both of them spend 2 weeks unconscious after getting a similar wound in a similar area, despite the fact that Elend is a Lerasium Mistborn and is a few times more powerful than Vin, in terms of raw power. This suggests that pewter enhanced healing doesn't increase dramatically with the increase of provided investiture. So the pewter healing effects of Dor fueled Mistborn, I say, would be still on a similar level to normal Mistborn. 

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

To add more, comparison of Vin's and Elend's wounds:

Vin, from Coppermind: "Vin spends the subsequent two weeks unconscious as she recovers from a massive wound in her side, and it takes three more months to recover fully from her ordeal at Kredik Shaw". From TFE ch 15, the wound was described by Vin as a deadly one, bleeding intensely, and it impaired her movements even with flared pewter.  In ch 16 Vin was treated by Sazed. In ch 17, after 2 weeks, she still has scrapes, bruises and cuts on her whole body from encounters with inquisitors.

Elend, WoA epilogue: also 2 weeks to wake up from a deadly cut in the guts, unknown time to fully recover. It's likely that Elend was also treated by Sazed, as he was there. If not, as the Emperor he had the best surgeons in the city.

Both of them spend 2 weeks unconscious after getting a similar wound in a similar area, despite the fact that Elend is a Lerasium Mistborn and is a few times more powerful than Vin, in terms of raw power. This suggests that pewter enhanced healing doesn't increase dramatically with the increase of provided investiture. So the pewter healing effects of Dor fueled Mistborn, I say, would be still on a similar level to normal Mistborn. 

Huh, neat.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Radiants don't have guns. And If Windrunners/Skybreakers chose to lash rocks into a Mistborn, those would be a fist sized, not bullet size. That wound would still require days/weeks of pewter enhanced healing. Bendalloy won't help.

They'd probably still be able to push on that, but that does make shardplate punches still lethal.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

They'd probably still be able to push on that, but that does make shardplate punches still lethal.

Yes, they probably would be able to push rocks. But would a Shardplate punch be deadly? I don't know - Vin used duralumin and pewter to explode the head of a thug in WoA, and she didn't get hurt in the process. Shardplate punch will be very strong, but pewter enhanced body would likely make it "easy" to survive, as no penetration is happening, at worst broken bones, which would be problematic for a Mistborn in longer fight. Of course this is only a case for a Dor powered Mistborn. Regular Thugs and Mistborn are able to take on hits, that would normally break bones, without any damage to their body, leaving only bruises.

[Frustration]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, they probably would be able to push rocks. But would a Shardplate punch be deadly? I don't know - Vin used duralumin and pewter to explode the head of a thug in WoA, and she didn't get hurt in the process. Shardplate punch will be very strong, but pewter enhanced body would likely make it "easy" to survive, as no penetration is happening, at worst broken bones, which would be problematic for a Mistborn in longer fight. Of course this is only a case for a Dor powered Mistborn. Regular Thugs and Mistborn are able to take on hits, that would normally break bones, without any damage to their body, leaving only bruises.

That's probably true.

I don't really have anything else to add, do we want to start bringing in some modifiers?

[Leuthie]

1 v 1 it would depend on the needs of the story. In other words, it's plausible that either side could win.

From an army v army perspective, Radiants have a huge advantage: they don't have to manage resources to keep using their abilities. They don't have to save their Invested metals and non-Invested metals. Investiture is always available to them with no need for a catalyst. When it comes to war, access to resources always determines the outcome, and Radiants have much easier access to their abilities.

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

From an army v army perspective

Please, let's not jump into another rabbit hole of "Roshar vs Scadrial"! We just had that disscussion. It's too soon!  

But if we had an army of Dor fueled Mistborns and an Army of Radiants from all 10 orders, I would give it to Radiants, but it would be a hard fight. Bondsmiths change everything (and 100 Elsecallers)

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Please, let's not jump into another rabbit hole of "Roshar vs Scadrial"! We just had that disscussion. It's too soon!  

I agree let's not.

But, I think it's probably time to allow some more stuff, but let's keep it controlled and do 2 things at a time.

So, starting now let's allow Squires and Savantism.

 

Bendalloy Savantism here really changes just about everything, as it makes the Mistborn one of the fastest things we have ever seen.

This I think drops Edgedancers out of the running.

 

Squires are a huge help, as numbers are one of the most important assets you can have, I think they quite firmly establish Windrunners as being above the Mistborn here, while giving Dustbringers, Stonewards and Skybreakers the help they need to maintain their positions.

 

Lightweavers on the other hand I feel probably drop bellow the Mistborn regardless of their squires.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So, starting now let's allow Squires and Savantism.

Squires are a huge help, as numbers are one of the most important assets you can have, I think they quite firmly establish Windrunners as being above the Mistborn here, while giving Dustbringers, Stonewards and Skybreakers the help they need to maintain their positions.

I don't know. Squires don't have plates. Just push/pull on their emotions even without duralumin and it will paralyze them, and then kill them one by one. Distraction for sure, but not enough to significantly change the results. If Radiant decides to protect with his plate his squires, he will expose himself to emotional allomancy and paralysis, losing the fight. Windrunner's squires would be even more susceptible to this as you can push on their guilt and sense of failure to protect (not everyone is like Kaladin but most would struggle with the same issues as him).

[therunner he/him]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So, starting now let's allow Squires and Savantism.

Alright, sounds good.

Quote

Bendalloy Savantism here really changes just about everything, as it makes the Mistborn one of the fastest things we have ever seen.

This I think drops Edgedancers out of the running.

It makes them fast, but to actually attack the Radiant has to be in the bubble with them, or they have to drop the bubble. So that is severe disadvantage compared to say C-Steel.
It would be useful defensive power, but I don't think it can help with defeating Radiant.

Other Savantisms,

• Tin is more hindrance then help, especially against Lightweaver, or really any order that can attack at range. Could help with dodging Shardblade, but Shardplate can still shapeshift and skip, which would confound that.
• Pewter savantism would also be more hinderance, as Mistborn would be more reckless.
• Steel/Iron, possibly improved control would be useful, but we don't know what the drawback is.

Quote

Squires are a huge help, as numbers are one of the most important assets you can have, I think they quite firmly establish Windrunners as being above the Mistborn here, while giving Dustbringers, Stonewards and Skybreakers the help they need to maintain their positions.

 

Lightweavers on the other hand I feel probably drop bellow the Mistborn regardless of their squires.

I think squires are a huge help, even for orders where just a couple of them are normal.

If you can attack from 3 angles at once, that is difficult to defend against.

Quote

I don't know. Squires don't have plates. Just push/pull on their emotions even without duralumin and it will paralyze them, and then kill them one by one. Distraction for sure, but not enough to significantly change the results. If Radiant decides to protect with his plate his squires, he will expose himself to emotional allomancy and paralysis, losing the fight. Windrunner's squires would be even more susceptible to this as you can push on their guilt and sense of failure to protect (not everyone is like Kaladin but most would struggle with the same issues as him).

I don't think paralysis from rioting/soothing is as common an outcome as you are making it out to be.
Even Straff was not really fully paralyzed in the moment, nor in the other situations did we see full on breakdowns/paralysis of everyone.
Sure some might be hindered, but not to extent that Mistborn can just easily kill them all one by one.

Edited February 28, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

It makes them fast, but to actually attack the Radiant has to be in the bubble with them, or they have to drop the bubble. So that is severe disadvantage compared to say C-Steel.
It would be useful defensive power, but I don't think it can help with defeating Radiant.

It helps you reposition quickly, allowing you to always attack from behind, and avoid attacks but you are right it does have limits, namely not allowing you to use steel outside of it, so you have to be on the ground.

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think paralysis from rioting/soothing is as common an outcome as you are making it out to be.
Even Straff was not really fully paralyzed in the moment, nor in the other situations did we see full on breakdowns/paralysis of everyone.
Sure some might be hindered, but not to extent that Mistborn can just easily kill them all one by one.

Maybe, but just a few seconds of hesitation could give him an opening. He can also use time bubbles to strengthen the effect of it.

Spoiler

Failsafe

If one were to Riot or Soothe out of a cadmium bubble or a bendalloy bubble, would the emotional Allomancy be effectual? If so, how would it be affected by the speed bubble, and how would that work in reverse?

Brandon Sanderson

If you were to... Someone's inside a bubble, and you're shooting Allomancy into it from outside, would it have an effect? The answer to that would be yes. Shooting out of it should work also. It is going to be affected though. I think depending on the speed of it, you're gonna end up with a stretching or condensing of it. If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit. And if you're doing it from outside in, and they're moving very fast, you're gonna have a lesser effect.

Questioner

Would it have some randomness, like a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

You probably wouldn't be able to target... No, you would be able to. You would be fine. You can do kind of a cone, and things like that. It might be hard to hit the specific individual, but it wouldn't be as much trouble as a bullet.

Questioner

What about with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about duralumin is, if you wanted to extra duralumin it, what you'd have to do is eat some within a speed bubble, use it, then eat some more, then use it. You could therefore kind of multiply up, but yeah. So yes, you could do that, but you'd have to do it multiple times.

spectral.limina

Just to confirm, is that a fast bubble or slow bubble?

Brandon Sanderson

That'd be a fast bubble, cause you're piling it up. More time is passing for you than people outside. Basically, you're doing five times duralumin push in one burst. It could probably get pretty dangerous, some people's emotions.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

Maybe, but just a few seconds of hesitation could give him an opening. He can also use time bubbles to strengthen the effect of it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Failsafe

If one were to Riot or Soothe out of a cadmium bubble or a bendalloy bubble, would the emotional Allomancy be effectual? If so, how would it be affected by the speed bubble, and how would that work in reverse?

Brandon Sanderson

If you were to... Someone's inside a bubble, and you're shooting Allomancy into it from outside, would it have an effect? The answer to that would be yes. Shooting out of it should work also. It is going to be affected though. I think depending on the speed of it, you're gonna end up with a stretching or condensing of it. If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit. And if you're doing it from outside in, and they're moving very fast, you're gonna have a lesser effect.

Questioner

Would it have some randomness, like a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

You probably wouldn't be able to target... No, you would be able to. You would be fine. You can do kind of a cone, and things like that. It might be hard to hit the specific individual, but it wouldn't be as much trouble as a bullet.

Questioner

What about with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about duralumin is, if you wanted to extra duralumin it, what you'd have to do is eat some within a speed bubble, use it, then eat some more, then use it. You could therefore kind of multiply up, but yeah. So yes, you could do that, but you'd have to do it multiple times.

spectral.limina

Just to confirm, is that a fast bubble or slow bubble?

Brandon Sanderson

That'd be a fast bubble, cause you're piling it up. More time is passing for you than people outside. Basically, you're doing five times duralumin push in one burst. It could probably get pretty dangerous, some people's emotions.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Time bubbles would make it harder to target an individual, which emotional allomancy already has trouble with, and given their natural investiture, that might make it even worse than just using it regularly.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

I agree let's not.

But, I think it's probably time to allow some more stuff, but let's keep it controlled and do 2 things at a time.

So, starting now let's allow Squires and Savantism.

 

Bendalloy Savantism here really changes just about everything, as it makes the Mistborn one of the fastest things we have ever seen.

This I think drops Edgedancers out of the running.

 

Squires are a huge help, as numbers are one of the most important assets you can have, I think they quite firmly establish Windrunners as being above the Mistborn here, while giving Dustbringers, Stonewards and Skybreakers the help they need to maintain their positions.

 

Lightweavers on the other hand I feel probably drop bellow the Mistborn regardless of their squires.

Ah. Bendalloy and cadmium savantism is incredibly useful. Pewter, Electrum, and Bronze less so, but better than any other option, unless savants can push/pull on trace metals.

23 hours ago, therunner said:

Alright, sounds good.

It makes them fast, but to actually attack the Radiant has to be in the bubble with them, or they have to drop the bubble. So that is severe disadvantage compared to say C-Steel.
It would be useful defensive power, but I don't think it can help with defeating Radiant.

Other Savantisms,

• Tin is more hindrance then help, especially against Lightweaver, or really any order that can attack at range. Could help with dodging Shardblade, but Shardplate can still shapeshift and skip, which would confound that.
• Pewter savantism would also be more hinderance, as Mistborn would be more reckless.
• Steel/Iron, possibly improved control would be useful, but we don't know what the drawback is.

I think squires are a huge help, even for orders where just a couple of them are normal.

If you can attack from 3 angles at once, that is difficult to defend against.

I don't think paralysis from rioting/soothing is as common an outcome as you are making it out to be.
Even Straff was not really fully paralyzed in the moment, nor in the other situations did we see full on breakdowns/paralysis of everyone.
Sure some might be hindered, but not to extent that Mistborn can just easily kill them all one by one.

Tin is more of a hindrance, unless you have pewter savantism as well. Perhaps still a hindrance against lightweaving, but not other orders. Pewter can make one reckless, but only if they lean into it. Savantism isn't mind control - a smart mistborn would't be reckless even if they are a pewter savant.

I don't think that squires are that much help - One can simply splash some acid on them from a speed bubble. It's the best tactic against non-plated foes that isn't invested. Sure, trapping them in a cadmium buble might work, but then you need to stay by them. Acid is harder to heal from, or deal with while healing, than steelpuntures, and because of time-dencity I don't believe one can brute force or puncture a human without D-bursting pewter, and I don't believe that would be effective. However, one could try to stab them as they enter the buble, then back off so their out again. Either way, the squires should be dealt with. And I don't know where your getting the no-pushing outside for flight.

 

With savantism, I think it easily goes to mistborn. Squires can be easily dealt with via speedbubles, and speedbubbles will allow the mistborn to get into melee with one with a blade without having to worry about soul damage; though the best strategy for dealing with a radiant is still wait until their dun, then fight them; both of which are easier with bendalloy savanthood.

Savanting Tin is fine with pewter, but both are uneccsary helps. Same with S/I, Cadmium, and bronze. Bendalloy savanthood is the only requirement.

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Ah. Bendalloy and cadmium savantism is incredibly useful. Pewter, Electrum, and Bronze less so, but better than any other option, unless savants can push/pull on trace metals.

We don't know the drawbacks of those yet, so they might end up being good only from pure 'combat' perspective, but debilitating otherwise.

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Tin is more of a hindrance, unless you have pewter savantism as well. Perhaps still a hindrance against lightweaving, but not other orders. Pewter can make one reckless, but only if they lean into it. Savantism isn't mind control - a smart mistborn would't be reckless even if they are a pewter savant.

I did not mean that pewter makes you reckeless as cognitive effect, but that since you don't feel pain or exhaustion anymore, Mistborn will be doing things that damage them too much. Pewter savants often kill themselves on accident since they overestimate what their body can handle That is what I meant by Mistborn being reckless.

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I don't think that squires are that much help - One can simply splash some acid on them from a speed bubble. It's the best tactic against non-plated foes that isn't invested. Sure, trapping them in a cadmium buble might work, but then you need to stay by them. Acid is harder to heal from, or deal with while healing, than steelpuntures, and because of time-dencity I don't believe one can brute force or puncture a human without D-bursting pewter, and I don't believe that would be effective. However, one could try to stab them as they enter the buble, then back off so their out again. Either way, the squires should be dealt with. And I don't know where your getting the no-pushing outside for flight.

Where did Mistborn suddently get acid? And why don't squires have it to splash on Mistborn, since Mistborn is also non-plated foe not much Invested? Let's leave stuff like that out.
And squires could heal acid damage, they breathe in Stormlight and get surges and healing.

And what is meant by last sentence?

Quote

With savantism, I think it easily goes to mistborn. Squires can be easily dealt with via speedbubles, and speedbubbles will allow the mistborn to get into melee with one with a blade without having to worry about soul damage; though the best strategy for dealing with a radiant is still wait until their dun, then fight them; both of which are easier with bendalloy savanthood.

But squires can coordinate and team up, Mistborn dealing with 4-5 squires at once + Radiant on top has a lot of problems, and they have no way to forcibly split them up, outside of getting them in bubble with them (which can be minimized by smart positioning on squire end).

Edited March 2, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

17 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

And I don't know where your getting the no-pushing outside for flight.

Here

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Speaking of time bubbles, can iron and steel and emotional Allomancy go beyond the boundaries of time bubbles; like if I'm inside a time bubble can I just like super Steelpush outside?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, time bubbles interfere with almost all forms of Investiture.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

And the fact that Wax never pushes on metal outside of bubbles.

 

I feel like there was another one.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 3/2/2023 at 0:47 AM, therunner said:

We don't know the drawbacks of those yet, so they might end up being good only from pure 'combat' perspective, but debilitating otherwise.

I did not mean that pewter makes you reckeless as cognitive effect, but that since you don't feel pain or exhaustion anymore, Mistborn will be doing things that damage them too much. Pewter savants often kill themselves on accident since they overestimate what their body can handle That is what I meant by Mistborn being reckless.

Where did Mistborn suddently get acid? And why don't squires have it to splash on Mistborn, since Mistborn is also non-plated foe not much Invested? Let's leave stuff like that out.
And squires could heal acid damage, they breathe in Stormlight and get surges and healing.

And what is meant by last sentence?

But squires can coordinate and team up, Mistborn dealing with 4-5 squires at once + Radiant on top has a lot of problems, and they have no way to forcibly split them up, outside of getting them in bubble with them (which can be minimized by smart positioning on squire end).

True, but again, it isn't needed. Squires are a minor inconvenience, not something that is actually important.

A smart mistborn learns their limitations with a physician/pain-tinmind (unkeyed or unsealed) to not kill themselves while testing.

That is a realitively simple weapon, and AFAIK not terribly advanced. Would lit oil be preferable? Any liquid projectile can take out a squire. The squire can heal, but only for so long. I used acid because I fogured it would be less stormlight effecient, but plenty of others exist. And Squires can have it, but the mistborn is moving so fast the only way it is useful is if they crease a buble around themselves, which doesn't exactly help offensively, as it takes you out of the fight. It was targetting Frus, and he answered (After you). Should be obvious now.

But squires are moving, in relation to the mistborn, slower than a snail moves to us IRL. They can team up agaisnt a normal speed person, but when that person is whipping about faster than you can track them, there isn't much that can be done.

On 3/2/2023 at 7:41 AM, Frustration said:

Here

  Hide contents

Kurkistan

Speaking of time bubbles, can iron and steel and emotional Allomancy go beyond the boundaries of time bubbles; like if I'm inside a time bubble can I just like super Steelpush outside?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, time bubbles interfere with almost all forms of Investiture.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

And the fact that Wax never pushes on metal outside of bubbles.

 

I feel like there was another one.

Intresting, But I feel like it could be like A-Emo, where directionality is still possible, but single targeting is still difficult, which is fine for general hight, but not positioning. Perhaps Savanting would change that, but it really only makes it so that the mistborn doesn't have to wait on the ground for flying squires, or run from them like flying radiants.

[therunner he/him]

45 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

True, but again, it isn't needed. Squires are a minor inconvenience, not something that is actually important.

Why do you consider squires to be minor inconvenience? They can use surges, and they can heal on par with Gold Ferring at least.

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A smart mistborn learns their limitations with a physician/pain-tinmind (unkeyed or unsealed) to not kill themselves while testing.

I don't think you can avoid savantism effect that easily. Not feeling pain is a big problem, because you don't notice anything hurting and you exert yourself too much too easily.

Quote

That is a realitively simple weapon, and AFAIK not terribly advanced. Would lit oil be preferable? Any liquid projectile can take out a squire. The squire can heal, but only for so long. I used acid because I fogured it would be less stormlight effecient, but plenty of others exist. And Squires can have it, but the mistborn is moving so fast the only way it is useful is if they crease a buble around themselves, which doesn't exactly help offensively, as it takes you out of the fight.

Sure, but again, squires can do the same to Mistborn, and much more easily since there is more of them and only one Mistborn.
And the Mistborn cannot heal, and is not really that fast compared to some Radiants. (e.g. Windrunner squires are faster than Mistborn).

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But squires are moving, in relation to the mistborn, slower than a snail moves to us IRL. They can team up agaisnt a normal speed person, but when that person is whipping about faster than you can track them, there isn't much that can be done.

Where are you taking that Mistborn is moving particularly fast?
Some Radiants are much more mobile then Mistborn (Windrunners, Skybreakers, on ground Edgedancers and Dustbringers).

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:33 PM, therunner said:

Why do you consider squires to be minor inconvenience? They can use surges, and they can heal on par with Gold Ferring at least.

I don't think you can avoid savantism effect that easily. Not feeling pain is a big problem, because you don't notice anything hurting and you exert yourself too much too easily.

Sure, but again, squires can do the same to Mistborn, and much more easily since there is more of them and only one Mistborn.
And the Mistborn cannot heal, and is not really that fast compared to some Radiants. (e.g. Windrunner squires are faster than Mistborn).

Where are you taking that Mistborn is moving particularly fast?
Some Radiants are much more mobile then Mistborn (Windrunners, Skybreakers, on ground Edgedancers and Dustbringers).

They cannot move nearly as fast the mistborn with bendalloy. Sure, they cna heal, but their collective stormlight will run out before the mistborn's bendalloy, even if just used for healing, with no leakage.

I don't think they need pewtar savantism, but I do think it would be pretty easy to find ones limit in era 2. Find a physician, or get a painmind, and do tests. You have to devote some amount of attention, but it isn't relative to the argument.

If they moved the same speed, but the mistborn experiences between 5* to 15* the amount of time. They cannot easily do the same thing, because the mistborn can just dodge, in a way a radiant cannot.

Bendalloy savantism. 5* to 15* time dialation, that moves with them, catches no one else unless you want it to, and moves with you. ANd that is without superboosting it. A bendalloy savant is usually considered faster than a fullborn without savantism, who has steel compounding and the horseshoe trick, though I don't neccessarily buy that, they are faster than radiants, baring windrunners, who can get to an infinite speed due to gravitation, but that takes infinite time, and can only go one direction. Windrunners would take several minutes to reach the speed of a bendalloy savant in a single direction, and the bendalloy savant can change direction. The bendalloy savant would die of old age before the windrunner kills them.

[therunner he/him]

31 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

They cannot move nearly as fast the mistborn with bendalloy. Sure, they cna heal, but their collective stormlight will run out before the mistborn's bendalloy, even if just used for healing, with no leakage.

Bendalloy will help Mistborn fight the squires only if the squires are sufficiently separated.

And I don't think their stormlight would run out that fast, Mistborn with Investiture will be about as good container of it as squires are.

32 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't think they need pewtar savantism, but I do think it would be pretty easy to find ones limit in era 2. Find a physician, or get a painmind, and do tests. You have to devote some amount of attention, but it isn't relative to the argument.

Sure you find the limit, but can you keep that in mind while in the middle of life-and-death fight, especially when you cannot feel pain?
People regularly overextend themselves, even professional sportsmen, and this would be far harder.

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If they moved the same speed, but the mistborn experiences between 5* to 15* the amount of time. They cannot easily do the same thing, because the mistborn can just dodge, in a way a radiant cannot.

Yeah, but Mistborn cannot fight them as long as he is moving at that speed.
He needs to be in the bubble with them.

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Bendalloy savantism. 5* to 15* time dialation, that moves with them, catches no one else unless you want it to, and moves with you. ANd that is without superboosting it. A bendalloy savant is usually considered faster than a fullborn without savantism, who has steel compounding and the horseshoe trick, though I don't neccessarily buy that, they are faster than radiants, baring windrunners, who can get to an infinite speed due to gravitation, but that takes infinite time, and can only go one direction. Windrunners would take several minutes to reach the speed of a bendalloy savant in a single direction, and the bendalloy savant can change direction. The bendalloy savant would die of old age before the windrunner kills them.

Where are you getting all this from savantism?
Bendalloy savantism allows you to shape the bubble after it has been set up, and move it with you (and some unknown negative sideffects), but not to choose to exclude someone that is not how it works.

Fullborn would be faster trivially (they also have bendalloy), and F-steel is straight up better then bendalloy for movement.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Just now, therunner said:

Bendalloy will help Mistborn fight the squires only if the squires are sufficiently separated.

And I don't think their stormlight would run out that fast, Mistborn with Investiture will be about as good container of it as squires are.

Sure you find the limit, but can you keep that in mind while in the middle of life-and-death fight, especially when you cannot feel pain?
People regularly overextend themselves, even professional sportsmen, and this would be far harder.

Yeah, but Mistborn cannot fight them as long as he is moving at that speed.
He needs to be in the bubble with them.

Where are you getting all this from savantism?
Bendalloy savantism allows you to shape the bubble after it has been set up, and move it with you (and some unknown negative sideffects), but not to choose to exclude someone that is not how it works.

Fullborn would be faster trivially (they also have bendalloy), and F-steel is straight up better then bendalloy for movement.

What do you mean? The closer they are, the less liquid arms they need. You aren't having them get inside the bubble like Wayne, but rather tossing a liquid through the edge of the bubble, because who cares about the refraction, it's a liquid that it going every which way anyway.

For gasous investiture, but the liquid investiture didn't seem to leak, and even if it did, (or we are using gassous investiture,) the mistborn is using less to damage the squires than the squires and radiant use to heal.

That is the question. I think one can, at least for the most common ways.

No he doesn't, if he doesn't care about refraction, such as when using liquid arms. If you splash acid, oil, or another liquid on someone from a flask, a large portion is going to miss them. With the refraction, some that would miss will hit, and more that would hit will miss, and more area will get splattered. It will still do what you want it to do. Alternitively, hold a peice of dinamite with tongs such that the wick ends at the edge of the bubble, with the wich inside. As the wick burns, it is inside, but once the wick is gone, and it starts to explode, it happens in realtime, allowing you to get out of the blast. This is less likely to work than the acid or flaming oil, but if it works, it can actually do damage to plate.

Even if it doesn't let you shape it so it's smaller than your abdomen, there is nothing preventing you from just not going where someone would be put into the bubble.

Bendalloy prevents the use of the horseshoe trick (based on what we have said in this argument), and the horseshoe trick is faster than non-savanted bendalloy. However, bendalloy savants are still top 4 fastest people in the cosmere, along with steel/steel twinborn, coinshot halfborn and fullborn/steelrunner halfborn.

[therunner he/him]

18 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

What do you mean? The closer they are, the less liquid arms they need. You aren't having them get inside the bubble like Wayne, but rather tossing a liquid through the edge of the bubble, because who cares about the refraction, it's a liquid that it going every which way anyway.

Ah, so the Mistborn has a lot of acid on hand somehow.
And how is he is he tossing the liquid? Because it will get reflected, and unless there is a lot of it, it will end up missing some of the time.

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For gasous investiture, but the liquid investiture didn't seem to leak, and even if it did, (or we are using gassous investiture,) the mistborn is using less to damage the squires than the squires and radiant use to heal.

I think it leaked as well, they just kept using it fast.

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No he doesn't, if he doesn't care about refraction, such as when using liquid arms. If you splash acid, oil, or another liquid on someone from a flask, a large portion is going to miss them. With the refraction, some that would miss will hit, and more that would hit will miss, and more area will get splattered. It will still do what you want it to do. Alternitively, hold a peice of dinamite with tongs such that the wick ends at the edge of the bubble, with the wich inside. As the wick burns, it is inside, but once the wick is gone, and it starts to explode, it happens in realtime, allowing you to get out of the blast. This is less likely to work than the acid or flaming oil, but if it works, it can actually do damage to plate.

And how much of this acid does Mistborn carry? Liters? Because some orders have dozens or more squires.
And can we give squires glass armor, or just thick armor in general, since apparently they come prepared with various equipment.

Also, object is either fully in or out, so the trick with dynamite won't work.

And I doubt it would damage plate, godmetals are heavily resistant.

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Even if it doesn't let you shape it so it's smaller than your abdomen, there is nothing preventing you from just not going where someone would be put into the bubble.

Sure, so at every point in time you would end up being several feet from anyone you want to fight.

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Bendalloy prevents the use of the horseshoe trick (based on what we have said in this argument), and the horseshoe trick is faster than non-savanted bendalloy. However, bendalloy savants are still top 4 fastest people in the cosmere, along with steel/steel twinborn, coinshot halfborn and fullborn/steelrunner halfborn.

Sure, they are fast, however they also burn through investiture quick and they have some relatively severe negative drawback from the savantism.
For all we know they start aging superfast (as in 10-15x as fast).

Edited March 7, 2023 by therunner

[IlstrawberrySeed]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ah, so the Mistborn has a lot of acid on hand somehow.
And how is he is he tossing the liquid? Because it will get reflected, and unless there is a lot of it, it will end up missing some of the time.

I think it leaked as well, they just kept using it fast.

And how much of this acid does Mistborn carry? Liters? Because some orders have dozens or more squires.
And can we give squires glass armor, or just thick armor in general, since apparently they come prepared with various equipment.

Also, object is either fully in or out, so the trick with dynamite won't work.

And I doubt it would damage plate, godmetals are heavily resistant.

Sure, so at every point in time you would end up being several feet from anyone you want to fight.

Sure, they are fast, however they also burn through investiture quick and they have some relatively severe negative drawback from the savantism.
For all we know they start aging superfast (as in 10-15x as fast).

I keep reverting to acid, but lit oil is common and easy to get ahold of. Only 2 orders can really prevent this, the soulcasting orders, who can soulcast an aluminum box, and be done with us.

Maybe. Anyone else want to voice their view on this?

True. As above, oil is pletily common, and while less damaging, more likely for one to have have large enough quanitites.

Right. It's fully inside until the wick is short enough, at which point it's fully outside, along with the explosion. And I don't necessarily mean directly damaging the the plate, but flingin them back can damage the plate, as can the debris from the explosion. The bigest question is wether the tongs would cause it to be inside, because if so, one might as well just use dinamite on a stick, and have the dinamite explode near them at bendalloy speeds.

No, they don't. Metalic arts are incredibly low investiture. Burning bendalloy at a flare uses about as much investiture as a radiant leaks and uses passively, barily more if more. The moment a radiant uses a surge, they are behind on investiture. Also, they could age fast, and that could be an issue, but we have to assume it isn't, because death by old age is boring, likely a draw/false match, and potentially not even a thing.