Investiture fueled Mistborn Vs. Radiant

[alder24]

@IlstrawberrySeed 

Why would Mistborn have an acid with them? We already assumed they have standard equipment, as if you give a Mistborn an primar cubes, then why not Fabrials for Radiants. If you want to give a Mistborn an acid, why not give to Windrunners an attractor fabrials that will draw it in and absorb, nullifying your acid. You give something extra to one side, you have to give something to the other.

And acid wouldn't be a "wonder weapon" against a Radiant. 2 orders can soulcast it away, 2 other orders can use division on it, 2 can become frictionless, 2 have better healing, and 2 more have reverse lashing, which works on liquids. And there is a plate, which stops acid and can be moved between different squires.

Spoiler

TearablePuns

How do Lashings affect fluids like water or air?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to Lash a fluid. It works poorly. How about that?

You can make it work best with the Reverse Lashing which would make sense I assume, but you can't Full Lash onto air or really a liquid. And a Gravitational Lashing, you could maybe do it on a liquid but it would disrupt real fast.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Then acid can be easily healed. Not only does acid take time to do damage to the tissue, healing would heal the body, and push acid out of your insides. Not an ideal weapon. Aluminum is better.

26 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think it leaked as well, they just kept using it fast.

I don't think there was any mention of anybody using liquid Dor and leaking it. So for now I would say it doesn't leak. Stormlight leaks because it is a gas, and your body has a lot of pores in them, your skin also breaths, liquid has much harder time leaking, as it's much denser. At best with sweat. 

 

[therunner he/him]

39 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

True. As above, oil is pletily common, and while less damaging, more likely for one to have have large enough quanitites.

 

No, they don't. Metalic arts are incredibly low investiture. Burning bendalloy at a flare uses about as much investiture as a radiant leaks and uses passively, barily more if more. The moment a radiant uses a surge, they are behind on investiture. Also, they could age fast, and that could be an issue, but we have to assume it isn't, because death by old age is boring, likely a draw/false match, and potentially not even a thing.

So, Radiant have a lot of water or sand on hand to counter oil?

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Right. It's fully inside until the wick is short enough, at which point it's fully outside, along with the explosion. And I don't necessarily mean directly damaging the the plate, but flingin them back can damage the plate, as can the debris from the explosion. The bigest question is wether the tongs would cause it to be inside, because if so, one might as well just use dinamite on a stick, and have the dinamite explode near them at bendalloy speeds.

Plate weights somewhere in the neighrbood of 300-400 kilograms, the explosion would not fling them back.
Nor would the debris damage them, regular modern armor is enough to shield from debris, plate would not even notice it.

And why do you keep giving Mistborn various equipment? Can we start giving some to Radiants? E.g. attractor fabrials?

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think there was any mention of anybody using liquid Dor and leaking it. So for now I would say it doesn't leak. Stormlight leaks because it is a gas, and your body has a lot of pores in them, your skin also breaths, liquid has much harder time leaking, as it's much denser. At best with sweat.

The leaking is not based on physical attributes of the body, but on the spiritweb, that is why Radiants are better at holding in Stormlight at higher Oaths.
Vin is also leaking Investiture for example.

The liquid vs gaseous could be the difference though.
If so, then once Roshar figures out how to condense Stormlight into liquid, Radiants will be much more powerful.

Edit: Though apparently Elantrians leak a bit (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6853) and they are fueled by Dor. So then Dor should leak as well, and so should Mistborn fueled by it.

Edited March 7, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

Edit: Though apparently Elantrians leak a bit (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6853) and they are fueled by Dor. So then Dor should leak as well, and so should Mistborn fueled by it.

So Elantrian's glow is investiture leaking out? Cool. Is the Dor that fueling them liquid? It's plasma in CR, but aren't they drawing it from SR? 

[therunner he/him]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So Elantrian's glow is investiture leaking out? Cool. Is the Dor that fueling them liquid? It's plasma in CR, but aren't they drawing it from SR? 

Pretty much all the Dor is in CR, as Odium dragged the Shards there to prevent them from reforming.

That is why Sel's magic are region locked, all of them are drawing Investiture from CR, so it is plasma-like. Possibly enough to be classified as liquid (plasma generally is described using liquid dynamics).

Edited March 7, 2023 by therunner
To remove reference to splintering

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Pretty much all the Dor is in CR, as Odium dragged the Shards there to prevent them from reforming (he did not learn to splinter at that point I think).

That is why Sel's magic are region locked, all of them are drawing Investiture from CR, so from the plasma storm.

Right, that makes sense I should have seen. 

They were both Splintered but their powers were dragged into CR. Some Hoid letter:

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In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered.

 

[therunner he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

They were both Splintered but their powers were dragged into CR. Some Hoid letter:

Thanks! I realized that a second too late, and edited it out

[IlstrawberrySeed]

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

@IlstrawberrySeed 

Why would Mistborn have an acid with them? We already assumed they have standard equipment, as if you give a Mistborn an primar cubes, then why not Fabrials for Radiants. If you want to give a Mistborn an acid, why not give to Windrunners an attractor fabrials that will draw it in and absorb, nullifying your acid. You give something extra to one side, you have to give something to the other.

And acid wouldn't be a "wonder weapon" against a Radiant. 2 orders can soulcast it away, 2 other orders can use division on it, 2 can become frictionless, 2 have better healing, and 2 more have reverse lashing, which works on liquids. And there is a plate, which stops acid and can be moved between different squires.

  Hide contents

TearablePuns

How do Lashings affect fluids like water or air?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to Lash a fluid. It works poorly. How about that?

You can make it work best with the Reverse Lashing which would make sense I assume, but you can't Full Lash onto air or really a liquid. And a Gravitational Lashing, you could maybe do it on a liquid but it would disrupt real fast.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Then acid can be easily healed. Not only does acid take time to do damage to the tissue, healing would heal the body, and push acid out of your insides. Not an ideal weapon. Aluminum is better.

I don't think there was any mention of anybody using liquid Dor and leaking it. So for now I would say it doesn't leak. Stormlight leaks because it is a gas, and your body has a lot of pores in them, your skin also breaths, liquid has much harder time leaking, as it's much denser. At best with sweat. 

 

Mundane technologies are usually allowed. Oil is a very common "improvised" weapon in fantasy tropes, as is a DoT liquid like acid or alchemist fire. I see oil as standard equipment, though acid would be specilized. Radiant could have it, along with metals, weapons, etc. It just that if it doesn't matter, it isn't brought up. Squires would have trouble soulcasting it away, and only 1 order has RL. More effecient healing just means more oil is needed, same with frictionless, since it will still light the ground. And the plate cannot protect them all, you can toss multiple before they hit, spren doesn't have time to move from one to another between collisions.

Aluminum is better in a white room. But it cannot be used with a bendalloy bubble (it might pop it, but would definitely would get refracted). One could reach out of the buble and stick some aluminum into their mouth, nose, or what have you, but that is more difficult to pull off, and less likely to kill.

41 minutes ago, therunner said:

So, Radiant have a lot of water or sand on hand to counter oil?

Plate weights somewhere in the neighrbood of 300-400 kilograms, the explosion would not fling them back.
Nor would the debris damage them, regular modern armor is enough to shield from debris, plate would not even notice it.

And why do you keep giving Mistborn various equipment? Can we start giving some to Radiants? E.g. attractor fabrials?

The leaking is not based on physical attributes of the body, but on the spiritweb, that is why Radiants are better at holding in Stormlight at higher Oaths.
Vin is also leaking Investiture for example.

The liquid vs gaseous could be the difference though.
If so, then once Roshar figures out how to condense Stormlight into liquid, Radiants will be much more powerful.

Edit: Though apparently Elantrians leak a bit (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6853) and they are fueled by Dor. So then Dor should leak as well, and so should Mistborn fueled by it.

Sure. Their wet, and have to use stormlight to stay warm . In reality, that would work pretty well. Back to outrunning them and waiting for them to dun.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Pretty much all the Dor is in CR, as Odium dragged the Shards there to prevent them from reforming.

That is why Sel's magic are region locked, all of them are drawing Investiture from CR, so it is plasma-like. Possibly enough to be classified as liquid (plasma generally is described using liquid dynamics).

I though plasma was an ionized gas. Also, fluid dynamics apply to gasses as well.

[therunner he/him]

13 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Mundane technologies are usually allowed. Oil is a very common "improvised" weapon in fantasy tropes, as is a DoT liquid like acid or alchemist fire. I see oil as standard equipment, though acid would be specilized. Radiant could have it, along with metals, weapons, etc. It just that if it doesn't matter, it isn't brought up. Squires would have trouble soulcasting it away, and only 1 order has RL. More effecient healing just means more oil is needed, same with frictionless, since it will still light the ground. And the plate cannot protect them all, you can toss multiple before they hit, spren doesn't have time to move from one to another between collisions.

Yeah but how much do you need is the question?
Stormlight healing is clearly very efficient even in early stages, allowing to heal spiritual damage which is noted as being a lot more Investiture intesive.
So burns should be 'easy' to heal.

And Mistborn can carry what, 10 liters of oil at most?

And if squires have pouches of sand to deal with fire, and leather armor/shields to protect from these liquid attacks it helps a lot.

Edit: And all of this relies on savantism, which is not a typical thing.
 

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Sure. Their wet, and have to use stormlight to stay warm . In reality, that would work pretty well. Back to outrunning them and waiting for them to dun.

And how long till Mistborn runs out?
They are using quite intensive power for quite a while, and unlike Windrunners cannot put their Investiture back into some storage.

Quote

I though plasma was an ionized gas. Also, fluid dynamics apply to gasses as well.

Yeah, and Investiture cannot really be ionized. Dor is only described as 'plasma-like', so most likely high energy liquid, and dangerous on contact typically.

Either way, it leaks.

Edited March 7, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Mundane technologies are usually allowed. Oil is a very common "improvised" weapon in fantasy tropes, as is a DoT liquid like acid or alchemist fire. I see oil as standard equipment, though acid would be specilized.

Show me 1 place in the books where Mistborn used oil as a weapon. Nowhere? So it's not a Mistborn’s weapon, not to mention a standard equipment.

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

And the plate cannot protect them all, you can toss multiple before they hit, spren doesn't have time to move from one to another between collisions.

I can't see how fire would damage a Shardplate. How fire would "hurt" a spren?

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

More effecient healing just means more oil is needed, same with frictionless, since it will still light the ground.

So how much oil does your Mistborn have? 100 liters? Where does he carry it so he can spray it all around? What prevents him from catching fire which would be deadly for him? Frictionless Radiant is far better in oily fire, as his skin doesn't have burnable oil on him.

8 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Aluminum is better in a white room. But it cannot be used with a bendalloy bubble (it might pop it, but would definitely would get refracted). One could reach out of the buble and stick some aluminum into their mouth, nose, or what have you, but that is more difficult to pull off, and less likely to kill.

Or use the bubble to aim, but shoot only with the bubble dropped, like Wax is doing. Your liquid will also be deflected by the bubble, so it's as hard to aim as a bullet.

 

39 minutes ago, therunner said:

Possibly enough to be classified as liquid (plasma generally is described using liquid dynamics).

Plasma is an ionized gas. You mean fluid dynamics, which is liquid and gas? Because Dor is described as plasma, I don't think the liquid, purify Dor, that was used in TLM, was the same that is in Sel's CR or is used by Elantrians. It still can leak from the body.

[therunner he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Plasma is an ionized gas. You mean fluid dynamics, which is liquid and gas? Because Dor is described as plasma, I don't think the liquid, purify Dor, that was used in TLM, was the same that is in Sel's CR or is used by Elantrians. It still can leak from the body.

Yeah I mean fluid dynamics. I often see hydrodynamics used for both, so I got confused.

Well, question is why is Dor described as plasma, when plasma IRL is charged fluid (and can be either liquid-like or gas-like depending on density), which is not property of Investiture as we know it.

Purified Dor can possibly be still the same density wise, only 'calmed down' so to speak.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah but how much do you need is the question?
Stormlight healing is clearly very efficient even in early stages, allowing to heal spiritual damage which is noted as being a lot more Investiture intesive.
So burns should be 'easy' to heal.

And Mistborn can carry what, 10 liters of oil at most?

And if squires have pouches of sand to deal with fire, and leather armor/shields to protect from these liquid attacks it helps a lot.

Edit: And all of this relies on savantism, which is not a typical thing.
 

And how long till Mistborn runs out?
They are using quite intensive power for quite a while, and unlike Windrunners cannot put their Investiture back into some storage.

Yeah, and Investiture cannot really be ionized. Dor is only described as 'plasma-like', so most likely high energy liquid, and dangerous on contact typically.

Either way, it leaks.

It would likely require to have a station you grab some from. However, even if that isn't allowed, 10L should drain a decent amount of stormlight, considering there is nothing better for the mistborn to carry around.

Savantism is not a typical thing, but we allowed savantism and squires for match 2. Match 1 was pretty easy: soulcast aluminum box wins, gravatation wins, maybe division wins, lightweaving wins if they get laysers, all win if they get ranged shardweapons, else looses.

Storage still leaks, and if the windrunner doesn't use stormlight, then mistborn doesn't need to use Dor. Just have lunch until they breath in. Also, it isn't investiture intensive. Forgery is the only magic system in a novel AFAIK that uses less investiture than the metalic arts.

K.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Show me 1 place in the books where Mistborn used oil as a weapon. Nowhere? So it's not a Mistborn’s weapon, not to mention a standard equipment.

I can't see how fire would damage a Shardplate. How fire would "hurt" a spren?

So how much oil does your Mistborn have? 100 liters? Where does he carry it so he can spray it all around? What prevents him from catching fire which would be deadly for him? Frictionless Radiant is far better in oily fire, as his skin doesn't have burnable oil on him.

Or use the bubble to aim, but shoot only with the bubble dropped, like Wax is doing. Your liquid will also be deflected by the bubble, so it's as hard to aim as a bullet.

 

Plasma is an ionized gas. You mean fluid dynamics, which is liquid and gas? Because Dor is described as plasma, I don't think the liquid, purify Dor, that was used in TLM, was the same that is in Sel's CR or is used by Elantrians. It still can leak from the body.

None. Its used for lamps. And mistborn never used any improvised weapon AFAIK. Did anyone use an improvised weapon in the first trilogy? There are few wepons shown on screen, are only the weapons shown onscreen aloud?

It doesn't, it hurts the unprotected squires. The plate cannot protect all of them at once, and the closer together they are (the faster the plate can move) the quicker multiple people get endangered and need plate. There is no way to protect all of them with plate, getting soaked is actually a better defence than plate.

When were guns alowed? I thought we were still equal tech levels, just savantism and squires to offset them.

K.

 

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

10L should drain a decent amount of stormlight,

10l of oil would do nothing. Most of it won't even get close to any squire, because of the bubble's deflection. And if you manage to splatter oil on one squire (the best you can do), then Radiant’s plate can quickly surround him, cut of oxygen, and extinguish fire instantly.

10 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

None. Its used for lamps. And mistborn never used any improvised weapon AFAIK. Did anyone use an improvised weapon in the first trilogy? There are few wepons shown on screen, are only the weapons shown onscreen aloud?

Every piece of metal is an "improvised weapon" for a Mistborn, which was constantly used by them. It just doesn't make sense to give a Mistborn type of weapon that they never used in the whole series, but give nothing to Radiant in return. Even non-standard weapons, that were used by them, but change a lot, like Atium/primer cubes, are something we shouldn't just assume they have without giving Radiant something in return.

14 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

When were guns alowed? I thought we were still equal tech levels, just savantism and squires to offset them.

Gun is a standard equipment of any Misting in era 2.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

It would likely require to have a station you grab some from. However, even if that isn't allowed, 10L should drain a decent amount of stormlight, considering there is nothing better for the mistborn to carry around.

Yeah, but it would only help with squires, and possibly not even all of them (depending on how much stormlight they have.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Savantism is not a typical thing, but we allowed savantism and squires for match 2. Match 1 was pretty easy: soulcast aluminum box wins, gravatation wins, maybe division wins, lightweaving wins if they get laysers, all win if they get ranged shardweapons, else looses.

Ah, true.   Thanks for the reminder, I am a bit distracted these days.

Anyway, Elsecallers still win easily then, Willshapers possibly too (depends on reaction time). Windrunner can use Reverse Lashing to possibly Immobilize Mistborn (depends on how Reverse Lashing interacts with speed bubbles) if not, dozens of squires are more then even savant could handle ( and I don't consider running away to be handling them).
Truthwatchers/Lightweavers can possibly use Illusions to strike at the Mistborn, or at least force him to waste more Investiture on Bendalloy to test the illusions.
And if they can create lasers, then bendalloy won't help much (speed of light ftw).
Honestly order with Cohesion also have a shot I think, they have plate, and if they can liquefy ground Mistborn will have hard time moving (both with steel/iron and on foot), this depends on terrain though.

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Storage still leaks, and if the windrunner doesn't use stormlight, then mistborn doesn't need to use Dor. Just have lunch until they breath in. Also, it isn't investiture intensive. Forgery is the only magic system in a novel AFAIK that uses less investiture than the metalic arts.

Gems don't leak in any appriciable amount, they easily last days or weeks. At that point it is no longer a fight really.
Windrunner uses up a bit of Stormlight, and if Mistborn runs away, returns it to gems. Mistborn will use up more Dor for bendalloy then Windrunner would.

Allomancy is not necessarily less Investiture intensive, it just typically does not have access to more Investiture, being limited by burn rate. Give them mists or pure Investiture, and it can achieve greater effects as we have seen.

Forgery uses as much Investiture as you have available, as TLM shows.

Any Invested art can use any amount of Investiture, some just naturally don't have access to as much (Forgery, Allomancy) as others (Surgebinding, Aon Dor).
And some are more efficient in certain applications, however Bendalloy seems to be quite intensive (metal burns quite fast, which makes sense considering its effect).

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It doesn't, it hurts the unprotected squires. The plate cannot protect all of them at once, and the closer together they are (the faster the plate can move) the quicker multiple people get endangered and need plate. There is no way to protect all of them with plate, getting soaked is actually a better defence than plate.

@alder24 pointed out a good countertactic, use plate to extinguish the fire. Easily done, and since the fire does not burn at superspeed the plate can be moved around fast enough to protect multiple squires.

Sure they will get some burns, but that is not enough to kill them. So Mistborn just used up considerable amount of Investiture on tactic that did not kill anyone (or very few).

Edited March 7, 2023 by therunner

[IlstrawberrySeed]

So it is back to running away and awaiting dunning. Not handling them, but effective. Also, the bendalloy rates I have been using are regular bendalloy rates, not super-bendalloy that would drain at comparable rates. Iron/Steel or even pewter might be more investiture effective for running from some of the radiants, but it would be bad against windrunners and possibly skybreakers. The mistborn likely has vials, so they would mearly use X vials runnign away, and leave the rest, and the Dor didn't seem to leak from the jars, so the dunning would still happen.

Isn't it great how in so many fictional situations, kiting or fleeing is the best option?

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

So it is back to running away and awaiting dunning. Not handling them, but effective. Also, the bendalloy rates I have been using are regular bendalloy rates, not super-bendalloy that would drain at comparable rates. Iron/Steel or even pewter might be more investiture effective for running from some of the radiants, but it would be bad against windrunners and possibly skybreakers. The mistborn likely has vials, so they would mearly use X vials runnign away, and leave the rest, and the Dor didn't seem to leak from the jars, so the dunning would still happen.

Isn't it great how in so many fictional situations, kiting or fleeing is the best option?

And same way Windrunners don't have to consume Stormlight from gems.

So, are you saying that Mistborn with Dor with savantism cannot win? But has to wait till at least some orders are depowered?

[alder24]

12 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

So it is back to running away and awaiting dunning. Not handling them, but effective. Also, the bendalloy rates I have been using are regular bendalloy rates, not super-bendalloy that would drain at comparable rates. Iron/Steel or even pewter might be more investiture effective for running from some of the radiants, but it would be bad against windrunners and possibly skybreakers. The mistborn likely has vials, so they would mearly use X vials runnign away, and leave the rest, and the Dor didn't seem to leak from the jars, so the dunning would still happen.

Isn't it great how in so many fictional situations, kiting or fleeing is the best option?

Running away means losing the fight. And even Dor fueled Mistborn won't run away from Windrunners or possibly Edgedancers.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 3/8/2023 at 0:08 AM, therunner said:

And same way Windrunners don't have to consume Stormlight from gems.

So, are you saying that Mistborn with Dor with savantism cannot win? But has to wait till at least some orders are depowered?

But gems leak, jars don't.

Not in a direct fight. investiture fueled mistborn vs windrunners has no chance until the windrunners are running low on investiture, possibly even until they are out. No chance to even run away from soulcasting though, they can just make an aluminum cube, (filling the air around you, not completely hollow,) and the only way to get out is to D-burn pewter, but that is so much investiture advantage on the radiant side. Radiant can drain them until they become a regular person that can be soulcast, or they can drown/suffocate them, etc. I suspect division will be an issue, but we don't know much about it. Mistborn's only chance is to win the investiture endurance challenge. Best way to do that is to run.

On 3/8/2023 at 4:03 AM, alder24 said:

Running away means losing the fight. And even Dor fueled Mistborn won't run away from Windrunners or possibly Edgedancers.

Does it? They don't have to run out of bounds, just use less investure in surviving that the radiant. RUnnign away is the best, but not the only (for some orders) way to do that. Also, why for the second bit? With Bendalloy they are faster on turns. Both of them gain speed in straitaways, but Windrunner cannot keep up without G-forces they cannot stand, Edgedancers are a maybe.

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

But gems leak, jars don't.

It takes weeks for gems to fully leak. And that's only the smaller ones in spheres. Bigger ones last even longer. They won't fight this long. And we don't know if jars don't leak. They glow so maybe.

13 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Does it? They don't have to run out of bounds, just use less investure in surviving that the radiant. RUnnign away is the best, but not the only (for some orders) way to do that. Also, why for the second bit? With Bendalloy they are faster on turns. Both of them gain speed in straitaways, but Windrunner cannot keep up without G-forces they cannot stand, Edgedancers are a maybe.

Yes, it does. When a boxer escapes a ring and runs away, he loses the fight. The same is here, we are talking about ways to fight, not escaping. If they want to escape, they admit they are weaker, and that they would lose in a fight.

Windrunner heals effects of g-forces, and he doesn't have to move that quick to cause him a problem and still would be able to catch up to him. The same with Skybreakers. Edgedancers and Dustbringers can move very fast, more than 100 km/h, so faster than a Mistborn. If Elsecaller can use Transportation to teleport himself anywhere he wants, he can keep up too. So half of the Orders can keep up with Mistborn running away. 

Instead of finding ways for Mistborn to escape, find a way for him to fight.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

It takes weeks for gems to fully leak. And that's only the smaller ones in spheres. Bigger ones last even longer. They won't fight this long. And we don't know if jars don't leak. They glow so maybe.

Yes, it does. When a boxer escapes a ring and runs away, he loses the fight. The same is here, we are talking about ways to fight, not escaping. If they want to escape, they admit they are weaker, and that they would lose in a fight.

Windrunner heals effects of g-forces, and he doesn't have to move that quick to cause him a problem and still would be able to catch up to him. The same with Skybreakers. Edgedancers and Dustbringers can move very fast, more than 100 km/h, so faster than a Mistborn. If Elsecaller can use Transportation to teleport himself anywhere he wants, he can keep up too. So half of the Orders can keep up with Mistborn running away. 

Instead of finding ways for Mistborn to escape, find a way for him to fight.

Thing is, plate is too difficult for a mistborn to get through without specilized equipment - firearms, magitech, unsealed metalminds - while the radiant has stormlight. Additionally, several of the orders have instakill surges - transformation, RL, possibly growth. Division might be, definitely on touch though.

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Thing is, plate is too difficult for a mistborn to get through without specilized equipment - firearms, magitech, unsealed metalminds - while the radiant has stormlight. Additionally, several of the orders have instakill surges - transformation, RL, possibly growth. Division might be, definitely on touch though.

It's not a regular Mistborn, it's a Dor powered Mistborn, that changes a lot. While the plate is hard to overcome, with his powers simply pushing coins could crack a plate, pewter punch would by equal to Shardplate punch, and leeching would be almost instant. His much more challenging opponent than regular Mistborn.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Soulcasting: Instant win.

Growth: requires use of chromium. Incredibly investiture intensive, likely puts radiant up on investiture. At that point, sharblade for the win.

Windrunners: Reverse lashing

Division: Kiting is the only answer. While they have stormlight, division protects their plate. Once we are out of Dor, we cannot break plate. It's litrally an endurance game. Skybreakers might be able to catch us while using the horseshoe trick, but that doesn't allow us to offend.

Abrasion: Cannot get through plate while it's active, so it's an endurance game. There is no fighting either order with abrasion.

That leaves willshapers (transportation, cohesion), stonewards (cohesion, tension), and bondsmiths. 

Don't know enough about willshapers or stonewards, but bondsmiths don't get plate, but they might be able to get enough stormlight to heal until they can open another purpandicularity. If you don't drink, it's a game of tag, otherwise it contenues until you run out of the dor, and have to kill them mundanely before they can touch you.

Mistborn can only win if the "Boxing ring" is large enough to outmanouver the radiant they are fighting. If it were the size of a boxing match, it would be who can land first strike - sharblade being summond or fist moving at D-Pewter speeds? For bondsmiths it would be an easy bondsmith win, no room to back away or circle.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Growth: requires use of chromium. Incredibly investiture intensive, likely puts radiant up on investiture. At that point, sharblade for the win.

Why chromium?

20 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Windrunners: Reverse lashing

It doesn't stop a punch in a head.

17 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Division: Kiting is the only answer. While they have stormlight, division protects their plate. Once we are out of Dor, we cannot break plate. It's litrally an endurance game.

Leeching while they try to use division on you might be much more effective than Division itself.

Quote

Skybreakers might be able to catch us while using the horseshoe trick, but that doesn't allow us to offend.

Can a horseshoe trick go as fast as 200mph? I doubt. Not to mention that while doing it, you can't fight. 

18 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Abrasion: Cannot get through plate while it's active, so it's an endurance game. There is no fighting either order with abrasion.

Why? Abrasion doesn't stop force of impact. I've already talked about it on page 1.

19 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Don't know enough about willshapers or stonewards, but bondsmiths don't get plate, but they might be able to get enough stormlight to heal until they can open another purpandicularity. If you don't drink, it's a game of tag, otherwise it contenues until you run out of the dor, and have to kill them mundanely before they can touch you.

Bondsmiths just take away your Allomancy.

[Frustration]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:44 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Intresting, But I feel like it could be like A-Emo, where directionality is still possible, but single targeting is still difficult, which is fine for general hight, but not positioning. Perhaps Savanting would change that, but it really only makes it so that the mistborn doesn't have to wait on the ground for flying squires, or run from them like flying radiants.

Emotional allomancy naturally is better in a direction than an individual, Marasi says as much in TLM, whereas Steel must be towards an object.

On 3/7/2023 at 11:19 AM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

but their collective stormlight will run out before the mistborn's bendalloy, even if just used for healing, with no leakage.

That's not true, Bendalloy burns incredibly quickly(burn rate is proportional to amount of investiture needed) and it is also affected by the speed factor of the bubble, so they would run out of bendalloy very quickly.

5 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

But gems leak, jars don't.

Mistborn can't return their inestiture to the jar though, once they take it in they have to use it.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

bondsmiths don't get plate,

Yes they do

Spoiler

Questioner

Did every Order have Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Every Order was capable of it.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Leeching while they try to use division on you might be much more effective than Division itself.

You're still going to lose your hand doing that.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

You're still going to lose your hand doing that.

Not like that, leeching when Radiant touches Mistborn to use Division. Division will work on Mistborn, but chromium would suck Radiant's investiture so quickly with this power, that it's likely Mistborn will drain him entirely before he does any serious damage to him. Mistborn, you might lose a hand if Radiant touches him by the hand, but Radiant will lose all Stormlight. So it’s an advantage for Mistborn. Radiant would need to avoid touching Mistborn as chromium is his most powerful weapon when he has Dor.

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not like that, leeching when Radiant touches Mistborn to use Division. Division will work on Mistborn, but chromium would suck Radiant's investiture so quickly with this power, that it's likely Mistborn will drain him entirely before he does any serious damage to him. Mistborn, you might lose a hand if Radiant touches him by the hand, but Radiant will lose all Stormlight. So it’s an advantage for Mistborn. Radiant would need to avoid touching Mistborn as chromium is his most powerful weapon when he has Dor.

The problem with that line of reasoning is that Mistborn has only two hands, whereas Radiant can carry a couple of pouches of spheres.

So, sacrifice Stormlight from two pouches to irreparably damage Mistborn's hands (and cause quite a bit of pain) can be valid tactic.