Why Taravangian has go through with…

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

Why does Todium have to go through with the contest of champions? It was explained away in a sentence at end of RoW, but Todium is not Rayse at all. Why not just admit to Dalinar that he killed Rayse and took up the Shard of Odium? He's not the same person as Rayse and shouldn't be bound by Rayse's oath (at least how I see it). 

[alder24]

Because it's the agreement binding Odium the Shard not just the Vessel. Vessel provides only a mind to the Shard, Shard is a far greater entity than just a Vessel. Vessel is part of a Shard. And to add more, Todium has his own plans of "saving them all".

Edit: It is like this: 99.9999% of the Shard is Shard's power (investiture), 0.0001% is a Vessel. So it is still the same entity after Vessel changes.

Edited February 22, 2023 by alder24

[Elder]

It seems Odium retains its other restrictions as well: No leaving the Roshar System, and some sort of limit on violence it can inflict on people, particularly Hoid, though I’m kinda fuzzy on the latter.

[Treamayne]

13 hours ago, Elder said:

limit on violence it can inflict on people, particularly Hoid, though I’m kinda fuzzy on the latter.

That's not just an Odium thing (or even a binding like the one from Honor keeping Odium in the Rosharan system)-that's a normal function of Shardic Nature.

(Multi-Cosmere Spoilers)

Spoiler

It's also why Ruin couldn't just "kill" Vin or Elend in Mistborn - but had to attack them with servants. It's why Endowment couldn't just stop (or kill) Bluefingers to prevent the Second Many War - but had to do this long con with Lightsong Returning having seen a glimpse of Fortune, so she could maneuver him into the correct place and time to heal Susebron. 

We don't know all of the details, but basically it comes down to "Shardic Power can only Directly Affect somebody who chooses to make a strong connection to that Shard"

Because Vyre willingly opened his life to Odium, Rayse was able to manipulate his emotions. But ROdium had to use Moash's connection to Kaladin to send the dream-visions of Braize because he didn't have a strong enough connection (and knew Kal would not willingly forge one). It's also why Kelsier could not control Preservation once he faked his way into taking up some of the shard. Once the Ire's Connection Juice TM wore off, he was still a vessel with more connection to Ruin than Preservation. So even as the vessel he didn't have enough connection to interact with the power correctly.

Hope that helps

Edited February 23, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Elder]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

That's not just an Odium thing (or even a binding like the one from Honor keeping Odium in the Rosharan system)-that's a normal function of Shardic Nature.

(Multi-Cosmere Spoilers)

  Hide contents

It's also why Ruin couldn't just "kill" Vin or Elend in Mistborn - but had to attack them with servants. It's why Endowment couldn't just stop (or kill) Bluefingers to prevent the Second Many War - but had to do this long con with Lightsong Returning having seen a glimpse of Fortune, so she could maneuver him into the correct place and time to heal Susebron. 

We don't know all of the details, but basically it comes down to "Shardic Power can only Directly Affect somebody who chooses to make a strong connection to that Shard"

Because Vyre willingly opened his life to Odium, Rayse was able to manipulate his emotions. But ROdium had to use Moash's connection to Kaladin to send the dream-visions of Braize because he didn't have a strong enough connection (and knew Kal would not willingly forge one). It's also why Kelsier could not control Preservation once he faked his way into taking up some of the shard. Once the Ire's Connection Juice TM wore off, he was still a vessel with more connection to Ruin than Preservation. So even as the vessel he didn't have enough connection to interact with the power correctly.

Hope that helps

A lot!  Thank you!

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

(Multi-Cosmere Spoilers)

Well, big Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

What would have happened if Ruin did get the atium? Yeah, the world is destroyed, but how does Ruin "absorb" the atium so he can utilize the power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would metabolize it, just like the normal people have to do. However, if he did get it he would then be able to destroy the world.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

[Treamayne]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:08 AM, Treamayne said:

On 2/22/2023 at 5:48 PM, Elder said:

 particularly Hoid, though I’m kinda fuzzy on the latter.

That's not just an Odium thing (or even a binding like the one from Honor keeping Odium in the Rosharan system)-that's a normal function of Shardic Nature.

(Multi-Cosmere Spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

It's also why Ruin couldn't just "kill" Vin or Elend in Mistborn - but had to attack them with servants. It's why Endowment couldn't just stop (or kill) Bluefingers to prevent the Second Many War - but had to do this long con with Lightsong Returning having seen a glimpse of Fortune, so she could maneuver him into the correct place and time to heal Susebron. 

We don't know all of the details, but basically it comes down to "Shardic Power can only Directly Affect somebody who chooses to make a strong connection to that Shard"

Because Vyre willingly opened his life to Odium, Rayse was able to manipulate his emotions. But ROdium had to use Moash's connection to Kaladin to send the dream-visions of Braize because he didn't have a strong enough connection (and knew Kal would not willingly forge one). It's also why Kelsier could not control Preservation once he faked his way into taking up some of the shard. Once the Ire's Connection Juice TM wore off, he was still a vessel with more connection to Ruin than Preservation. So even as the vessel he didn't have enough connection to interact with the power correctly.

Hope that helps

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well, big Mistborn spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos (paraphrased)

What would have happened if Ruin did get the atium? Yeah, the world is destroyed, but how does Ruin "absorb" the atium so he can utilize the power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would metabolize it, just like the normal people have to do. However, if he did get it he would then be able to destroy the world.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

Good points @alder24 - I failed to mention above, and it is worth noting, that Hoid is likely an exception to this generality. (Cosmere Spoilers)

Spoiler

The limitation on direct harm without connection is inherent to the Shard's power but is likely separate and distinct from how Hoid (in all his guises) interacts with Shards; not only because he was present at the Shattering, but also because he was a Dawnshard and is a Sliver so he may not fall under the "mortal" limitation in any way.

That's why he needed the extra clause in the Roshar contract. . .(RoW ch 99)

Spoiler

[Wit] squeezed her hand. “If you give Odium this contract—and get me the assurance that he cannot break free of this planetary system no matter what happens—then you won’t have to trust the hearts of mortals, Jasnah. Because you’ll have me. And everything I can give you.”

“You’ve told me he would destroy you if he found you.”

“We’ll add a line to the contract,” Wit said, “naming me as a contractual liaison for Honor—whom Dalinar represents. This will protect me from Odium’s direct attacks for the life of the contract. He will have to abide by those terms, as they are part of the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. To fail that promise would give others an opening against him, and said failures have killed gods before. Odium knows it. So do this, and I can help you openly. As myself.”

 

 

 

[Wandering Shade]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:18 PM, alder24 said:

Well, big Mistborn spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos (paraphrased)

What would have happened if Ruin did get the atium? Yeah, the world is destroyed, but how does Ruin "absorb" the atium so he can utilize the power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would metabolize it, just like the normal people have to do. However, if he did get it he would then be able to destroy the world.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

Another Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Ruin and Preservation made a pact when they made Scadrial which says that Ruin is allowed to destroy the planet in the future. But Preservation broke that deal by sealing Ruin away, making the atium, yadda yadda. So once Ruin had all his power back, he would be capable of destroying the planet in a handful of minutes by right of his deal and Preservation being too weak to properly fight back, regardless of if Preservation had a Vessel at the time.

 

[Torero]

Having read Mistborn a long time ago, now that you mention it, I have a question: why did Ruin want to destroy the world that he could rule, what would have happened to the Shard+Vessel if the planet they resided on was destroyed? What would they gain by this, what is the plan beyond just destroying? Many similar questions follow: when the Shard was taken, why did he not destroy something already, what was even the point of settling on a planet with Preservation and creating humans? It all seems very convoluted and pointless.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Torero

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

28 minutes ago, Torero said:

Having read Mistborn a long time ago, now that you mention it, I have a question: why did Ruin want to destroy the world that he could rule, what would have happened to the Shard+Vessel if the planet they resided on was destroyed? What would they gain by this, what is the plan beyond just destroying? Many similar questions follow: when the Shard was taken, why did he not destroy something already, what was even the point of settling on a planet with Preservation and creating humans? It all seems very convoluted and pointless.

From what I understand about Shards, the Shard's Intent eventually takes over completely. Hoid/Wit mentions in one of his letters just how kind Ati (Ruin's Vessel) was when he took  up the Shard, and eventually the Shard drove him to the Ruin of all Scadrial. Apparently it takes an extremely unique person to wield a Shard without being consumed by it. Ruin (as it was with Ati as the vessel) would have tried to bring ruin the the entirety of the Cosmere if able. Because that's its Intent.

I believe that this mechanic has something to do with why some Fused go mad and others have not, but that's a tangent. 

[Torero]

Yeah, something along these lines, but definitely a point that I had not appreciated in the past two-three Mistborn re-reads. Vessels going mad like Fused or, dare I say it, Kelsier. Something to think about.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

So, I just hit ch 19 of RoW where Taravangian says, "“Everything I’ve done was in the name of protecting humankind. Every step I’ve taken, every ploy I’ve devised, every pain I’ve suffered. It was all done to protect our future."

So, is the Intent of Odium so strong, that the picosecond Taravangian takes it up, he decides all of that is moot, and he will press the war, as is? Not just the deal, which was the OP's question (which I understand the deal was made with Odium the power, not Rayse the person, so that makes sense) but Taravangian's singular purpose for the last 7+ years has been to save as much of humanity as possible...is that all out the window now? 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

So, I just hit ch 19 of RoW where Taravangian says, "“Everything I’ve done was in the name of protecting humankind. Every step I’ve taken, every ploy I’ve devised, every pain I’ve suffered. It was all done to protect our future."

So, is the Intent of Odium so strong, that the picosecond Taravangian takes it up, he decides all of that is moot, and he will press the war, as is? Not just the deal, which was the OP's question (which I understand the deal was made with Odium the power, not Rayse the person, so that makes sense) but Taravangian's singular purpose for the last 7+ years has been to save as much of humanity as possible...is that all out the window now? 

Taravangian-as-Vessel has to follow the deal because of the constraints outlined above. But while his purpose for the Diagram and his life's work was to protect as much of humanity as possible - he's. . . expanded that idea once he is Odium's vessel (as stated in Ch 114):

Spoiler

“Taravangian,” Cultivation said, holding her hand out to him. “Come. Let me teach you about what you’ve been given. I realize the power is overwhelming, but you can control it. You can do better than Rayse ever did.”

He smiled and took her hand. Inside, he exulted.

Oh, you wonderful creature, he thought. You have no idea what you have done.

He was finally free of the frailties of body and position that had always controlled and defined him. He finally had the freedom to do what he’d desired.

And now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Treamayne

[SpeakoftheDeval]

17 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

So, is the Intent of Odium so strong, that the picosecond Taravangian takes it up, he decides all of that is moot, and he will press the war, as is? Not just the deal, which was the OP's question (which I understand the deal was made with Odium the power, not Rayse the person, so that makes sense) but Taravangian's singular purpose for the last 7+ years has been to save as much of humanity as possible...is that all out the window now? 

 

As I understand it, the effect of intent on the personality of the vessel takes a lot longer than that to set in. It'll mean he instantly can't do things that are counter to the intent of the shard, but with a shard like odium that grants him considerable leeway- I suppose it means he can't... Act solely out of compassion? 

But as long as the action is a way to express the shards inherent contempt for everything, it shouldn't be a problem, even if there is some level of good involved as a byproduct. 

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

To both @Treamayne and @SpeakoftheDeval, you both make good points. It's just that TOdium is so much more sinister to me than ROdium ever was. And I don't even know why, other than I have been despising Taravangian for years now, and I don't plan on stopping now that he's a god. TOdium could just attempt to not cause more war and death, but he won't. He'll take some definition of salvation (through the lens of a Shard, and that of Odium no less) and do something twisted and even worse than the years of torture and murder he's already done. Per usual though, I just want to know what he'll do right now, because I'm impatient.

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

It's just that TOdium is so much more sinister to me than ROdium ever was. And I don't even know why

Because, at least subconsciously, you've hit upon a Truth. There are many variations and possible quotes, but I like how Bernard says it in Codex Alera:

Spoiler

“There’s two kinds of bad men in the world. I mean, there’s all kinds of ways for a man to go bad, but when you get right down to it, there’s only about two kinds of men who will hurt others with forethought. Premeditation. Men that don’t figure there’s anyone else alive who matters but them. And men who figure that there’s something that matters more than anyone’s life. Even their own.”

He shook his head. “First one is common enough. Petty, small. They’re everywhere. People who just don’t give a scorched crow about anyone else. Mostly, the bad they do doesn’t amount to much.

“The second kind is like your patriserus. People who hold something dear above their own lives, above anyone else’s lives. They’ll fight to protect it and kill to protect it, and the whole time they’ll be thinking to themselves that it has to be done. That it’s the right thing to do.” Bernard glanced up at her and said, “Dangerous those. Very dangerous.”

Taravangian is very much the second case. He had decided his Cause, and all Means were acceptable to achive the end he decided was Right.

And now he's a Shard. . . 

[Letryx13]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:40 PM, Treamayne said:

Taravangian-as-Vessel has to follow the deal because of the constraints outlined above. But while his purpose for the Diagram and his life's work was to protect as much of humanity as possible - he's. . . expanded that idea once he is Odium's vessel (as stated in Ch 114):

Taravangian's perception of "saving" probably factors in as well.  He was arrogant enough to believe he was the only one smart enough to save Roshar, no matter what horrors he had to commit to do it, and that likely is only going to be worse in his current situation.

On 4/13/2023 at 4:29 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

To both @Treamayne and @SpeakoftheDeval, you both make good points. It's just that TOdium is so much more sinister to me than ROdium ever was. And I don't even know why, other than I have been despising Taravangian for years now, and I don't plan on stopping now that he's a god. TOdium could just attempt to not cause more war and death, but he won't. He'll take some definition of salvation (through the lens of a Shard, and that of Odium no less) and do something twisted and even worse than the years of torture and murder he's already done. Per usual though, I just want to know what he'll do right now, because I'm impatient.

 

He's more sinister because we've spent four books coming to understand him, and what motivates him.  We never knew Odium as Rayse the mortal, despite Hoid's description as one of the most dangerous men he'd ever met.  Odium was a force, and forces don't (normally) have personalities ascribed them in detail.  But Taravangian is someone we know, and is someone we understand exactly how dangerous he was as a frail old man.  And now that dangerous old man hold's the power of a deity.

On 4/13/2023 at 4:44 PM, Treamayne said:

Because, at least subconsciously, you've hit upon a Truth. There are many variations and possible quotes, but I like how Bernard says it in Codex Alera:

  Hide contents

“There’s two kinds of bad men in the world. I mean, there’s all kinds of ways for a man to go bad, but when you get right down to it, there’s only about two kinds of men who will hurt others with forethought. Premeditation. Men that don’t figure there’s anyone else alive who matters but them. And men who figure that there’s something that matters more than anyone’s life. Even their own.”

He shook his head. “First one is common enough. Petty, small. They’re everywhere. People who just don’t give a scorched crow about anyone else. Mostly, the bad they do doesn’t amount to much.

“The second kind is like your patriserus. People who hold something dear above their own lives, above anyone else’s lives. They’ll fight to protect it and kill to protect it, and the whole time they’ll be thinking to themselves that it has to be done. That it’s the right thing to do.” Bernard glanced up at her and said, “Dangerous those. Very dangerous.”

Taravangian is very much the second case. He had decided his Cause, and all Means were acceptable to achive the end he decided was Right.

And now he's a Shard. . . 

I agree with the idea that Taravangian fits the second case very well, but his pride very much factors into the equation with everything he's done too. Dalinar hit the nail on the head when he described Taravangian as someone that wants to prove that he's the smartest, the best, the greatest ruler of Roshar; the only one that could have saved them. Taravangian wants to prove (if only to himself) that all the people that called him stupid all his life were wrong. That's why he asks for the words the surgeon said when he was born so often.

On 4/12/2023 at 5:17 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

So, I just hit ch 19 of RoW where Taravangian says, "“Everything I’ve done was in the name of protecting humankind. Every step I’ve taken, every ploy I’ve devised, every pain I’ve suffered. It was all done to protect our future."

So, is the Intent of Odium so strong, that the picosecond Taravangian takes it up, he decides all of that is moot, and he will press the war, as is? Not just the deal, which was the OP's question (which I understand the deal was made with Odium the power, not Rayse the person, so that makes sense) but Taravangian's singular purpose for the last 7+ years has been to save as much of humanity as possible...is that all out the window now? 

The question is, what does it mean to "save" someone? I think the way he sees it is that if he kills the other shards and unites the Cosmere under his sole rule, then he'll be saving everyone from weak leadership.

On 2/22/2023 at 5:48 PM, Elder said:

It seems Odium retains its other restrictions as well: No leaving the Roshar System, and some sort of limit on violence it can inflict on people, particularly Hoid, though I’m kinda fuzzy on the latter.

The shard is bound to the system, since the investiture makes up the majority of Odium.  According to the chapter in RoW where Odium and Dalinar were negotiating, it's Honor's restrictions that keep Odium trapped there, and in another chapter the StormFather says it's the combined power of Honor and Cultivation.  My theory is that it's some kind of oath that Honor had Odium make in order for him to let the people of Ashyn come to Roshar.  Either way, Odium (no matter who holds the power and title) is stuck unless freed by Honor or someone representing Honor.

As for Odium not being able to harm people, Jah Anat tells Taravangian that he's excempted from such protections because of the deal he made with Odium.  And in that same negotiation chapter between Odium and Dalinar, Odium says that if Dalinar reneges on their deal then Odium will be released from Honor's restrictions and be free to use his powers on most individuals.  So it's likely a deal or Oath between Honor and Odium.  And I assume that protection doesn't seem like enough for Hoid, since he's kind of a wild card, so that's probably why there's the extra line in the contract for him.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Letryx13
Misspelling