Mat he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Just now, |TJ| said: uhhh i didnt get you, sorry? i mean it is relevant to game balance yes, but it doesnt tilt the balance against elims as much as flipless does against village imo. and in addition, i think though dead players can still speak, they kinda do lose the motivation (or perhaps have less motivation than when alive) to actually solve the game as i think it has been observed so far. I mean, taking current knowledge at face value: (Analyst scan + Tie Guy)*(2 RPers + 1-2 PHers) = 8 maximum extra uses of scans, plus the original roles themselves, and that's not counting PM Spider results and that replication (2 Goalkeepers + Terminal Seeker)*(2 RPers + 1-2 PHers) = 12 maximum extra kills/protects, plus the original roles themselves And I mean that's a weird way to do the math but all I'm trying to say is that we've got a heck of a lot of scan and kill/protect potential, enough that I don't know if believe that Book, Dannex, Devo, Randby, Orlok, Steel, Aman, TUN, and Stick/Drake can all be village. Maybe this is agree to disagree because I see that and I don't think flipless balances that, but maybe I'm wrong as we all seem pretty collectively lost :P. 4 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said: (>0-0)> Well yeah, look at the dates of those, it was like ten days ago :P. 5 minutes ago, The Wandering Wizard said: I think that everyone is forgetting something quite important. Drake was the one who shot Tani. I was wondering the potential of Stick maybe having wanted to be protecting Tani? A Troll gone wrong, or something. Idk if that works though.
Ashbringer he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 I don't know what you guys are talkin about with the cat video. It's cute! Look at the little paws.
Mat he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 inb4 there isn't a cat video at all and the dead players are all collectively trolling the rest of us Wait, Ash, you survived. How did you see it?
Channelknight Fadran Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) (vb-b)v Edited February 7, 2023 by Channelknight Fadran
Ashbringer he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said: inb4 there isn't a cat video at all and the dead players are all collectively trolling the rest of us Wait, Ash, you survived. How did you see it? Idk Kas showed it to me and I thought it was cute. I think Kas thought it would do something or other. But there's a kitty!
Amanuensis he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 24 minutes ago, |TJ| said: why didnt he kill last cycle then? i admit i entertained the idea particularly drakes behaviour around tkn/xino kill (i get it seemed like he wanted to do a reaction test but he seemed as confused as the rest of us on who killed who xD). the missing kill is the one thing thats still preventing me from going there. According to what I've heard in PMs, Drake attacked Archer actually, just didn't announce it in thread. Archer's "Didn't Read the Rules" Role caused it to fail, supposedly. It's part of why he started pushing Archer yesterday. 10 minutes ago, The Wandering Wizard said: I think that everyone is forgetting something quite important. Drake was the one who shot Tani. No. Stick was the one who killed Tani. Stick was also the one who asked Tani if she was an elim. Stick was also the one who Tani replied to saying "Yes, I am an elim" Then Stick revealed she was Tani's Killer. And, as Ash just said: 21 minutes ago, Ashbringer said: Also apparently dead Elims can send in the NK too, they've got a permanent free night slot. You realize where I'm going with this, right?
Random Bystander she/her Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 17 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said: Several problems: If someone were to troll me, you would not receive an opposing result. This is always an issue, of course, but still. We don't know if anyone has any false-read-proof roles. I'm somewhat worried that my own Confirmed Villager role acts as an anti-smoker role of sorts, which is why I was trying to commission a rolescanner. Similar to the first issue, this is one we'd have to take into account regardless. The most pressing: we never discovered if a trolled rolescan gives the exact opposite result - just that it gives an incorrect one. With several neutral roles in this game, it's possible that a Villager might not appear as an Elim if your ability was trolled. Fair points, however: "If someone were to troll me, you would not receive an opposing result." As someone who had temporarily gained the troll role, I know that if you are trolled, you will be told. "We don't know if anyone has any false-read-proof roles. I'm somewhat worried that my own Confirmed Villager role acts as an anti-smoker role of sorts, which is why I was trying to commission a rolescanner. Similar to the first issue, this is one we'd have to take into account regardless." I mean, sure, but I doubt that's going to be an issue. And it's just as likely that a eliminator troll might troll me, and I won't know. "The most pressing: we never discovered if a trolled rolescan gives the exact opposite result - just that it gives an incorrect one. With several neutral roles in this game, it's possible that a Villager might not appear as an Elim if your ability was trolled." The way the role was worded kinda makes me doubt the existence of neutrals.
The Wandering Wizard he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 4 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said: I was wondering the potential of Stick maybe having wanted to be protecting Tani? A Troll gone wrong, or something. Idk if that works though. It does work, but why wouldn't Stick just point the kill elsewhere? Because if an evil team has a kill they are going to use it and it's not going to matter if it's a protect or a kill because the NK and the terminal seeker would be targetting other people. Because it's kayana for them to target a single person. When they could just get two free kills. Just now, Amanuensis said: You realize where I'm going with this, right? Yeah, but I'll stop that tunnel right there. Why do they kill Tani who is an RPer and can just copy Stick to gain a free kill?
|TJ| he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Ashbringer said: I don't know what you guys are talkin about with the cat video. It's cute! Look at the little paws. why did you get a cat video? you havent been removed hmmmm. 9 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said: (Analyst scan + Tie Guy)*(2 RPers + 1-2 PHers) = 8 maximum extra uses of scans, plus the original roles themselves, and that's not counting PM Spider results and that replication (2 Goalkeepers + Terminal Seeker)*(2 RPers + 1-2 PHers) = 12 maximum extra kills/protects, plus the original roles themselves ahh got it. but thats the way were supposed to solve the game though, through roles. plus the actions of rpers and phers are just last for one cycle. and the biggest part of all these are balanced by one signal mechanic. the troll. with the trolling mechanism scan because not so important and extra actions need to be used slash wasted to ensure the accuracy of scans. trolled actions could be detrimental to village itself. and then theres the "confirmed villager role". i still think its stacked against us. all our reads are off due to no flips which makes the protects and kills less effective. kills and protects are only as good as our targets and targets depend on our reads. edit - ninja'd Edited February 7, 2023 by |TJ|
Ashbringer he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: According to what I've heard in PMs, Drake attacked Archer actually, just didn't announce it in thread. Archer's "Didn't Read the Rules" Role caused it to fail, supposedly. It's part of why he started pushing Archer yesterday. No. Stick was the one who killed Tani. Stick was also the one who asked Tani if she was an elim. Stick was also the one who Tani replied to saying "Yes, I am an elim" Then Stick revealed she was Tani's Killer. And, as Ash just said: You realize where I'm going with this, right? ... Tinfoil land? But maybe, actually. To add a bit to the fire - Stick may have shot TKN and Drake revealed that, then backpedaled via gambit to say it was Xino.
Amanuensis he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, The Wandering Wizard said: It does work, but why wouldn't Stick just point the kill elsewhere? Because if an evil team has a kill they are going to use it and it's not going to matter if it's a protect or a kill because the NK and the terminal seeker would be targetting other people. Because it's kayana for them to target a single person. When they could just get two free kills. Yeah, but I'll stop that tunnel right there. Why do they kill Tani who is an RPer and can just copy Stick to gain a free kill? For village cred. Obviously. Several of us were sussing Stick from D1. Why are you taking a known elims word for it? RPer was one of like three known roles when she claimed it, and it was immediately after v!Devo!NK claimed RPer. We have no evidence to believe Tani ever had a good role and I'd bet she didn't ED1T: 1 minute ago, Ashbringer said: But maybe, actually. To add a bit to the fire - Stick may have shot TKN and Drake revealed that, then backpedaled via gambit to say it was Xino. Yeah, that's what I think happened D3 too. Drake came in to pinchhit and made a slippy Edited February 7, 2023 by Amanuensis
Channelknight Fadran Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Random Bystander said: Fair points, however: "If someone were to troll me, you would not receive an opposing result." As someone who had temporarily gained the troll role, I know that if you are trolled, you will be told. "We don't know if anyone has any false-read-proof roles. I'm somewhat worried that my own Confirmed Villager role acts as an anti-smoker role of sorts, which is why I was trying to commission a rolescanner. Similar to the first issue, this is one we'd have to take into account regardless." I mean, sure, but I doubt that's going to be an issue. And it's just as likely that a eliminator troll might troll me, and I won't know. "The most pressing: we never discovered if a trolled rolescan gives the exact opposite result - just that it gives an incorrect one. With several neutral roles in this game, it's possible that a Villager might not appear as an Elim if your ability was trolled." The way the role was worded kinda makes me doubt the existence of neutrals. Welp... you commissioned me, so I shall deliver. Consider yourself Trolled.
Random Bystander she/her Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Just now, Channelknight Fadran said: Welp... you commissioned me, so I shall deliver. Consider yourself Trolled. Thanks. Let me know if you are trolled, please.
|TJ| he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: For village cred. Obviously. Several of us were sussing Stick from D1. you shush, dont go down this route >> i remember during re-read there was proper chain of suspicion about tani from stick in d1. and no, doing it for village cred seems extremely excessive in a game with no flips given they are giving up on a kill (and iirc devo claimed ph right?). edit: also with tanis availability (not available on weekends), it really doesnt make sense for them to kill her in particular to submit kills Edited February 7, 2023 by |TJ|
Amanuensis he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Just now, |TJ| said: you shush, dont go down this route >> i remember during re-read there was proper chain of suspicion about tani from stick in d1. and no, doing it for village cred seems extremely excessive in a game with no flips given they are giving up on a kill (and iirc devo claimed ph right?). I'm not not going this route. It's more likely than e!Ash and e!Silho imo. Obviously e!Stick wouldn't plan to shoot e!Tani without foreshadowing it in thread for her claim. And no, Devo claimed RPer who RPed Steeldancer, grabbing the role of PH.
Ashbringer he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Devo claimed RPer, she just also grabbed Steel's PH role before she died and backed him up. Still would like to hear from @Sart, too. I've got things to do today but I'm gonna try and do a bit of tinfoil later.
Amanuensis he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 5 minutes ago, |TJ| said: edit: also with tanis availability (not available on weekends), it really doesnt make sense for them to kill her in particular to submit kills That requires them to have a better option. What do you know about the elim team that I don't?
|TJ| he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: I'm not not going this route. It's more likely than e!Ash and e!Silho imo. maybe more likely than e!silho but not more than e!ash imo. and the again the foreshadowing, the set-up and the kill is extremely excessive to just get village read or for kills performed by a dead mate. and even if they did, they would choose a better available teammate instead of tani. Just now, Amanuensis said: That requires them to have a better option. What do you know about the elim team that I don't? i dont know any other player who is completely unavailable to log into shard on the weekends. so basically anyone else would be a better option was my thinking.
Amanuensis he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Just now, |TJ| said: i dont know any other player who is completely unavailable to log into shard on the weekends. so basically anyone else would be a better option was my thinking. This discounts player's ability to thread control (such as myself) or the most important thing, role distro. This matter could be solved fairly easily with an alignment scan on Drake and/or a Pinchhitter check on Tani
Ashbringer he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Speaking of role distro, we might be able to assemble a proved vs unproved role list. I want to find that roleblocker.
Channelknight Fadran Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 20 minutes ago, Random Bystander said: Thanks. Let me know if you are trolled, please. I actually checked the role again. I wouldn't be informed if I was trolled - you would be.
Random Bystander she/her Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Channelknight Fadran said: I actually checked the role again. I wouldn't be informed if I was trolled - you would be. I read it again, and it probably wouldn't be me. It would be a random person.
Amanuensis he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 7 minutes ago, Ashbringer said: Speaking of role distro, we might be able to assemble a proved vs unproved role list. I want to find that roleblocker. I'd love that tbh, would be nice to use my role at least once this game >>
|TJ| he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Player Day/Passive Action Night Action Ashbringer Thread Master/ Veteran - Proved (2 roles) Wizard - PM Spider Proved (via PMs) Steeldancer Pinch-Hitter Proved (multiple steals) Fadran Confirmed Villager Troll Proved (D1 immunity) Striker Lynchbait/Stab Voter - N/A Xino Multiquoter N/A JNV PM Spider Proved? Matrim Tunnel Constrictor - Unproved Biplet Meme Maker Unproved by action but proven to know the correct role name (D2 only reported action) Araris Porch-Sitter Meme Maker Proved Devotary Pinch-Hitter N/A Aman Goalkeeper Troll Proved TUN Goalkeeper N/A Bookwyrm Vote Analyst N/A Tani Roleplayer N/A Archer PM Spider Proved? Walin Troll N/A TJ Veteran Wall-Poster Not exactly proved Danex Tie Guy N/A Stick/Drake Terminal Seeker Proved Orlok Pinch-Hitter Proved Random Roleplayer Proved Sart Unproved Shining Discussion Leader - Unproved Fae PM Buddy PM Spider Proved? need confirmed regarding jnv, archer and faes pming but yeah this is basically it.
Shining Silhouette he/him Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 Just now, |TJ| said: need confirmed regarding jnv, archer and faes pming but yeah this is basically it. Isn't my role proved? I was the one who moved Wiz's vote to Sart
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