Why the Ghostbloods want Stormlight so badly

[Frustration]

So it was shown in TLM that allomancers can use identity-less investiture to hyperfuel their powers.

Looking at it that way, a lot of the comments Brandon has made about Scadrial being low investiture start to make sense

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

and I think I've figured it out.

Allomancers, Sand Masters, and Aetherbound use physical materials to open small gateways to the spiritual realm in order to access their powers, whereas individuals like Radiants, Awakeners, Forgers, and Elantrains use investiture directly, allowing them to access it in a greater form.

This puts using Stormlight and the Mists on the same level, which is why Brandon compared them so often

Spoiler

Team Teama

Vin “sucked in the mists” with a deep breath, also the mist was “leaking” from her arms. Is that similar to Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it is. One hundred percent. In fact, you should notice that when Shardblades form they take a certain shape... substance.

Adam Horne

Oh jeez, yeah...

Brandon Sanderson

Did you never notice that?

Adam Horne

No, I did, but you know… you don't think about it.

Brandon Sanderson

Before they solidify, yeah.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

Questioner

I'm going through Hero of Ages...again and I noticed...when Vin takes the power of Preservation into herself the descriptions remind me a lot of someone who has been Invested with Stormlight--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

--are those powers very similar--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

--in how they operate?

Brandon Sanderson

Ye-- Definitely some similarities. You will see a lot of mist in Stormlight if you are looking. So yeah.

Questioner

It like puffs out like mist.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Questioner

I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

Brandon Sanderson

Breath is definitely like mist, it is in the form of the air.

Questioner

And is Stormlight the same?

Brandon Sanderson

Stormlight is the same.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

youshallnotpass

Can stormlight be used to fuel allomancy like the mist in the mistborn trilogy? Is stormlight therefore a manifestation of honour?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

Now I don't think that mistings getting identity free stormlight would be blasting apart buildings like Vin with Kredik Shaw, as that would require massive amounts of it, but they could definately use it to push on trace metals.

 

This is why the ghostbloods are so intent on getting it, and why Selish, Nalthian and Rosharan magics seem so powerful compared to others. Pure investiture can elevate magic from powerful to insane.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Frustration

[JustQuestin2004]

I feel this is definitely a decent part as to why they want Stormlight. But there is more to it than that.

They don't just want to have unlimited amounts of Pure Investiture for themselves to use, they also want to monopolize it. Control it's off-world flow. Use it to gain influence over other worldhopping groups. The mass production and distribution of Pure Investiture will change the Cosmere forever and whoever figures it out first will have the ability to influence that change to their liking.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

They don't just want to have unlimited amounts of Pure Investiture for themselves to use, they also want to monopolize it. Control it's off-world flow. Use it to gain influence over other worldhopping groups. The mass production and distribution of Pure Investiture will change the Cosmere forever and whoever figures it out first will have the ability to influence that change to their liking.

Oh that's definitely what they want to do with it, but I was more meaning why they wanted it, if that makes sense.

[JustQuestin2004]

Just now, Frustration said:

Oh that's definitely what they want to do with it, but I was more meaning why they wanted it, if that makes sense.

Oh yeah, Magic Super Fuel is something anyone would want.

I'd imagine that they'd follow the Lord Ruler's marketing stratagem, hoard most of it for themselves and sell small portions to whoever has the deepest pockets.

[AquaRegia]

It strikes me that ultimately, the Ghostbloods are really just an extension of Kelsier.

Is it possible that access to Stormlight will somehow help him solve his own personal problems?

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

It strikes me that ultimately, the Ghostbloods are really just an extension of Kelsier.

Is it possible that access to Stormlight will somehow help him solve his own personal problems?

I don't think so, but if they found a method to move Stormlight out of Roshar, they can use the same method to disconnect Kelsier from Scadrial allowing him to freely move around Cosmere. This is one of few problems Kelsier has right now. 

Stormlight won't help him keep his mind sane, nor will it give him back Allomancy. But even if he can't use it to fuel his invested arts, there are many others in Ghostbloods that can. And Stormlight is far easier and safer to get than Dor.

 

@Frustration you are on fire lastly with all those theories and connections! They are so simple yet so logical it makes me wonder how could I miss it.

Edit: Kelsier's main goal on Scadrial is to popularize metal arts, so everyone could have it. And if they also would have easy access to Dor or Stormlight to fuel it, Scadrial would suddenly become a very powerful faction in the Cosmere. Then they could easily defend themself and also project power across other systems.

Edited January 31, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

 

@Frustration you are on fire lastly with all those theories and connections! They are so simple yet so logical it makes me wonder how could I miss it.

Thanks man.

[Leuthie]

Ghostbloods already have containers of Dor. Both are hard to get, but they can already get Dor. So is Stormlight easier to use? And why?

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Ghostbloods already have containers of Dor. Both are hard to get, but they can already get Dor. So is Stormlight easier to use? And why?

Stormlight isn't easier to use it's just easier and safer to get, especially in large quantities.

The dor can only be collected by going into a plasma storm that's dangerous even for Hoid, stormlight is basically free.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Frustration

[Leuthie]

Just now, Frustration said:

Stormlight isn't easier to use it's just easier and safer to get.

The dor can only be collected by going into a plasma storm that's dangerous even for Hoid, stormlight is basically free.

Theoretically. They can't get it yet.

[HSuperLee]

8 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Theoretically. They can't get it yet.

Doesn't Mraize say he's found a way to get it off-world in RoW?

[alder24]

14 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Doesn't Mraize say he's found a way to get it off-world in RoW?

Yes, Mraize said they know its a Connection issue and that they have a solution for it, yet it will be very hard to implement. - ch 13 

At the end of RoW Ghostbloods still didn't do it, but they have around 10 years between RoW and TLM to do it. Knowing their interest in BAM it's likely that they want to use her in some way, because she is able to manipulate Connection.

[AquaRegia]

Seems like what they really need is a Bondsmith... or the Bondsmith Honorblade.

[Ashbringer]

On 1/31/2023 at 5:51 AM, AquaRegia said:

Is it possible that access to Stormlight will somehow help him solve his own personal problems?

I'm pretty sure that's why he wanted Kalak. It is the same root issue of moving tied-down Investiture, but Stormlight does seem for Investiture purposes vs Kalak as specifically a Cognitive Shadow he could... study? Do something with. Pretty sure the Ghostbloods didn't know he'd just fade away like Jezrien did if he actually got sucked into a gemstone.

SA 5's Prologue has a bit more on this but idk if we're supposed to talk about that here or not. Spoiler rules get complicated.

 

I do wonder if the Dor is naturally unKeyed because it's two different Shards, or if they had to do something to it first. And why couldn't they just do that same thing to Stormlight.

[lacrossedeamon]

We also have no idea on why Vasher can worldhopper or why Breaths seem easier to transport. Honestly he should be who the Ghostbloods are after.

Edited February 2, 2023 by lacrossedeamon

[Frustration]

52 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

We also have no idea on why Vasher can worldhopper or why Breaths seem easier to transport. Honestly he should be who the Ghostbloods are after.

Actually we do, it has to do with the nature of breath.

Spoiler

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14226

 

 

 

 

 

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

This is a bit of a tangent but based on MeLaans epilogue in TLM it looks like something horrible has happened to Roshar.

TLM being what, 5-10 years after SA 5? 

This supports my theory that the planet Roshar is going to go boom! I wonder what would happen to Shadesmere in the planet and surrounding area if the planet was destroyed, transform a transparent endless looking liquid to a black inky substance maybe?

To bring it back to the post, if something insane like this happens to Roshar it would make sense why Kel is using the Dor instead of Stormlight x years later as they do seem close to outsourcing Stormlight.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Hoids Imaginary Friend

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

This is a bit of a tangent but based on MeLaans epilogue in TLM it looks like something horrible has happened to Roshar.

TLM being what, 5-10 years after SA 5? 

This supports my theory that the planet Roshar is going to go boom! I wonder what would happen to Shadesmere in the planet and surrounding area if the planet was destroyed, transform a transparent endless looking liquid to a black inky substance maybe?

To bring it back to the post, if something insane like this happens to Roshar it would make sense why Kel is using the Dor instead of Stormlight x years later as they do seem close to outsourcing Stormlight.

I don't think we saw Roshar's CR with MeLaan. It looks nothing like Roshar's CR, and some group of Horneaters could just migrate or worldhop. But the reason why Ghostbloods doesn't have Stormlight in TLM might be much simpler - Mraize got outsmarted by Shallan and had to leave. 

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

This is a bit of a tangent but based on MeLaans epilogue in TLM it looks like something horrible has happened to Roshar.

TLM being what, 5-10 years after SA 5? 

This supports my theory that the planet Roshar is going to go boom! I wonder what would happen to Shadesmere in the planet and surrounding area if the planet was destroyed, transform a transparent endless looking liquid to a black inky substance maybe?

To bring it back to the post, if something insane like this happens to Roshar it would make sense why Kel is using the Dor instead of Stormlight x years later as they do seem close to outsourcing Stormlight.

Roshar still exists during TLM, we know because Kaise mentions how much trouble they have working there.

[Leuthie]

11 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

This is a bit of a tangent but based on MeLaans epilogue in TLM it looks like something horrible has happened to Roshar.

TLM being what, 5-10 years after SA 5? 

This supports my theory that the planet Roshar is going to go boom! I wonder what would happen to Shadesmere in the planet and surrounding area if the planet was destroyed, transform a transparent endless looking liquid to a black inky substance maybe?

To bring it back to the post, if something insane like this happens to Roshar it would make sense why Kel is using the Dor instead of Stormlight x years later as they do seem close to outsourcing Stormlight.

MeLaan mentions people with red hair and strange outfits that are lost in a part of Shadesmar described as "cold fire". Not sure how you can conclude something horrible has happened to Roshar from that. Am I missing something?

[Proletariat]

MeLaan suggests they need help, and there's a lot of them. There's also a group of spren-less Skybreakers on Scadrial who now seem to be allomancers (by way of hemalurgy?).  Travel via shardpools has also become increasingly difficult of late. So something happens, but it's unclear what it is that has happened.

[Frustration]

55 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

There's also a group of spren-less Skybreakers on Scadrial

Brandon didn't say that they were former Skybreakers.

[Proletariat]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Brandon didn't say that they were former Skybreakers.

No one but Hoid has gotten off Roshar with their abilities intact as spren are still locked. WoB is pretty clear you generally can't get spren off world yet.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

No one but Hoid has gotten off Roshar with their abilities intact as spren are still locked. WoB is pretty clear you generally can't get spren off world yet.

In order to have abilities still he has to take Design with him, and Radiants are bound just as much as their spren are.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Frustration

[Proletariat]

Just now, Frustration said:

In order to have abilities still he has to take Design with him.

And these Skybreakers are not Hoid, and Design is not their highspren. If we accept the hint that they are Skybreakers, then the simplest presumption is that they've substituted their dead, missing, left behind, yet to be bonded or whatever spren with hemalurgic spikes to give them allomantic abilities.

Quote

Matias_Leibo

Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case. Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway.

Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

I'm aware that you have a very strong opinion that Rosharan innovation means that getting spren off world on a population wide scale is imminent, but there is no suggestion in-text or by Brandon that this has seriously happened as of the Lost Metal. Insisting otherwise will make this a very circular discussion.