The first fight between Wax and Dumad, and why it's the best fight scene in the Cosmere.

[Frustration he/him]

I was skimming through TLM last night, and I reread the first fight Wax and Dumad have during Marasi's sting opperation in Bilming, and as I was going through I found myself continually impressed by how good the fight was, it seemed, almost perfect, and I want to share my thoughts.

 

The most obvious reason for the fight being so good was how dynamic it is, the location and relative advantages are continuously changing, from an initial exchange of bullets, to shoving trucks over, to machine guns, to a firefight inside and outside of an appartment building, to a final showdown in the sky. It never stops moving.

But, there are other examples of this in the Cosmere, such as Vin's fight with the Inquisitors, or Wax versus Miles at the end of AoL, what made this fight in particular special?

 

And that's when it struck me: this is the first time Cosmere characters have actually gone up against someone more powerful than themselves, and perhaps more importantly, someone who can punish them for using their powers, which forced them to adapt on the fly.

In previous fights, there might have been an illusion of a power imbalance, such as Vin versus TLR, but when it came down to it, the protagonist always had the upper hand, i.e. the mists. Here however, Dumad has not only more powers than Wax, but he has more combat focused ones as well, Wax can't overpower him, and even using feruchemy can be a detriment as Dumad can sense him. So Wax had to use guile, tricks, and think on his feet, which in conjuntion with the already dynamic fight lead to, in my mind the most epic fight scene in the entire Cosmere.

[Tglassy]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

And that's when it struck me: this is the first time Cosmere characters have actually gone up against someone more powerful than themselves, and perhaps more importantly, someone who can punish them for using their powers, which forced them to adapt on the fly.

Well, not exactly.  Vin tries fighting Steel Inquisitors and nearly dies.  She spends weeks recovering, even with Pewter.  Kel, too.  He barely gets away after fighting them.  

Later, Kel kills one, and Vin and Elend wind up going toe to toe with many, but that's later.  Vin was barely trained, and the Inquisitor took her apart.  

Vin goes up against Shan Elarial, who has been a mistborn longer than she has, and is therefore more trained, and wins.  Everyone is surprised, but Shan is able to counter everything Vin can throw at her, and she has to adapt by turning off her Atium, tricking Shan into thinking Vin had none left.  So she used her wits to beat her.  They may have had the same powers, but Shan was the more accomplished Mistborn. 

Kal, before he was aware of his bond with Syl, fought a guy in Shardplate with a Shardblade and killed him straight up.  I'd say the guy was a lot more powerful than Kal at that moment, even if Kal was just starting to draw in Stormlight.  

Terevangian fought Odium, though in a different way.  A little old man, with no intellect whatsoever, saw the flaw in Odium's plans and manipulated the situation to get Nightblood and Odium in the same place, even if it didn't quite go off like he wanted, and he managed to basically kill a god. 

Kal, Dalinar and Adolin all fought Szeth, and were taken apart.  The only reason they even survived was because Szeth saw Kal use stormlight and freaked out.  If he'd kept his cool, he could have taken them all apart.  All he'd have needed to do was leave Kal on the ground and fly back up to get Dalinar.  Kal won the next time they fought, but only because he'd ranked up to 3rd Ideal with his own Blade.

Vasher fought Denth, who was the better swordsman, and won by sacrificing Breaths, something no one ever even thinks about doing.  He figured out an adaptation to beat those who are better fighters than him.  Otherwise, he'd have lost.  

Vivvena used Awakening to awaken Tong Fa's coat to get him off her.  Tong Fa is a lot stronger and more powerful than she is, she just surprised him.  She also used the Command she heard to tell the Lifeless guy to attack Denth.  Everyone there was more powerful than she was, but she still managed to fight them off.

Hrathen against Dilaf (forgive my spelling, I'm an audiobook listener).  Dilaf was a full Dakor Monk, Hrathan only had one arm.  Hrathan won because of surprise.

Miles Hundredlives was arguably more powerful than Wax.  Nothing Wax did affected him hardly at all.  They had to trick him with Marasi's power and overwhelming numbers to take him down.  

Lift vs Nale.  He's a Harald, and she survived him twice.  He vastly outmatched her in every possible way.

Heck, Dalinar vs Nale in RoW.  It was quick, and Szeth was there to help, but still.  

So no, this isn't the first time in the cosmere that the characters went up against someone who was more powerful or stronger than them and it required them to adapt on the fly. It was a good fight, though. 

I think it was so good because they were equally matched, not that Dumad was more powerful.  Dumad had different powers, but those powers together matched Wax.  It wasn't Kal vs Szeth or Kel vs an Inquisitor.  In those cases, it was basically two people with the same powers fighting to see who was better.  In this case, they had DIFFERENT abilities, but those abilities were complimentary.  Wax could increase his weight to steelpush, Dumad could use Duralumin, etc.  

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Well, not exactly.  Vin tries fighting Steel Inquisitors and nearly dies.

And she had the same powers as them.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Vin goes up against Shan Elarial, who has been a mistborn longer than she has, and is therefore more trained, and wins.

Same power though.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Kal, before he was aware of his bond with Syl, fought a guy in Shardplate with a Shardblade and killed him straight up.  I'd say the guy was a lot more powerful than Kal at that moment, even if Kal was just starting to draw in Stormlight.

Helaran might have been able to kill more people, but Kal had more power.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Vasher fought Denth, who was the better swordsman, and won by sacrificing Breaths, something no one ever even thinks about doing.  He figured out an adaptation to beat those who are better fighters than him.  Otherwise, he'd have lost.

Again, same level of power.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Vivvena used Awakening to awaken Tong Fa's coat to get him off her.  Tong Fa is a lot stronger and more powerful than she is, she just surprised him.  She also used the Command she heard to tell the Lifeless guy to attack Denth.  Everyone there was more powerful than she was, but she still managed to fight them off.

Tonk Fah had no power.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Hrathen against Dilaf (forgive my spelling, I'm an audiobook listener).  Dilaf was a full Dakor Monk, Hrathan only had one arm.  Hrathan won because of surprise.

The only power Dilaf could actually use against Hrathen was his strength, which Hrathen also had in his arm, so same power.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Miles Hundredlives was arguably more powerful than Wax.  Nothing Wax did affected him hardly at all.  They had to trick him with Marasi's power and overwhelming numbers to take him down.  

They were both Twinborn, so same level of power.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Lift vs Nale.  He's a Harald, and she survived him twice.  He vastly outmatched her in every possible way.

He didn't even use his powers, so in terms of storytelling he might as well have not had them.

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Heck, Dalinar vs Nale in RoW.  It was quick, and Szeth was there to help, but still.  

Dalinar has a lot more power than Nale.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Frustration

[Tglassy]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And she had the same powers as them.

Same power though.

Hearing might have been able to kill more people, but Kal had more power.

Again, same level of power.

Tonk Fah had no power.

The only power Dilaf could actually use against Hrathen was his strength, which Hrathen also had in his arm, so same power.

They were both Twinborn, so same level of power.

He didn't even use his powers, so in terms of storytelling he might as well have not had them.

Dalinar has a lot more power than Nale.

Imma call bull on pretty much all of that.  What exactly is your definition of power?  How, exactly, does Tonk Fah not have more power when he's twice her size and knows more than she does? 

The Inquisitors clearly were more powerful than Vin at that points.  Yes, they had the actual powers, but by no means was Vin their equal.  She got her a** handed to her, and there would be no other outcome.  And how on Earth does Dalinar have more power than a Herald of the 5th ideal with his own Honorblade?  He has DIFFERENT powers, but by no means is he stronger than a Herald.  

There are Twinborn and there are Twinborn.  Nothing Wax could do could even inconvenience Miles for more than a second.  And he tried. For an entire book.  Wax literally had nothing that could stop him. In the end, it wasn't Wax that stopped him, but Marasi.  How is that "being on the same level of power"?

I get that if you're talking pure amounts of Investiture then sure, these match ups had similar amounts, but that isn't what "Power" means.  Power is a lot of things.  The Inquisitors were very much more powerful than Vin in many ways. Their Allomancy was stronger, they had access to some Feruchemy, and she was untrained.  In every way possilbe, they were more powerful, in book one at least.  

For Denth and Vasher, yeah, they were both Returned and Vasher had more breaths, but that didn't matter.  Denth should have won.  He was the better swordsman.  He was faster and more talented.  Therefore, Denth was the more powerful of the two.  Vasher had to use a trick to win.  Technically, he had to make Denth more powerful, investiture-wise, by giving him Breaths to shock his system, in order to beat him. 

But not everything is measured in the amount of Investiture you have.  And even so, Dumad wasn't more powerful than Wax in that regard, etiher. He had more abilities, but Inquisitors have more abilities than a Mistborn, and you're apparently thinking that doesn't count.  So what exactly is your point?

[Frustration he/him]

15 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Imma call bull on pretty much all of that.  What exactly is your definition of power?  How, exactly, does Tonk Fah not have more power when he's twice her size and knows more than she does?

You literally answered your own question.

15 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I get that if you're talking pure amounts of Investiture then sure,

And as her breath is what beat him that exactly the point.

16 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

The Inquisitors clearly were more powerful than Vin at that points. 

Um, no. They were straight up just mistborn. They didn't even display any amount of raw power that was beyond her.

18 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And how on Earth does Dalinar have more power than a Herald of the 5th ideal with his own Honorblade?  He has DIFFERENT powers, but by no means is he stronger than a Herald.  

Nale's power: fly

Dalinar's power: Travel between realms, summon infinite Stormlight, read people's past etc.

He is by every metric more powerful.

20 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

There are Twinborn and there are Twinborn.  Nothing Wax could do could even inconvenience Miles for more than a second.

And Wax can take his gun away and fly out of reach. Then neither of them can be hurt.

21 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

The Inquisitors were very much more powerful than Vin in many ways. Their Allomancy was stronger, they had access to some Feruchemy, and she was untrained.

1. She was trained, she really didn't do any training between there and the end of the book.

2. Their allomantic strength and Feruchemy was not displayed, and if you want to argue it anyway Vin had the mists. Undisplayed powers from a narrative point might as well not exist.

23 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

For Denth and Vasher, yeah, they were both Returned and Vasher had more breaths, but that didn't matter.  Denth should have won.  He was the better swordsman.  He was faster and more talented.  Therefore, Denth was the more powerful of the two.  Vasher had to use a trick to win.  Technically, he had to make Denth more powerful, investiture-wise, by giving him Breaths to shock his system, in order to beat him.

Vasher was better at the magic so therefore he was the more powerful of the two. Vasher never had to improvise or think on his feet, he just pulled out a strategy he had already used and won, with simple raw power.

27 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

But not everything is measured in the amount of Investiture you have.  And even so, Dumad wasn't more powerful than Wax in that regard, etiher. He had more abilities, but Inquisitors have more abilities than a Mistborn, and you're apparently thinking that doesn't count.  So what exactly is your point?

Vin had access to vastly more Investiture than the Inquisitors, but that's beside the point.

Dumad displayed more power than Wax, and so he had more power than Wax.

[Tglassy]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You literally answered your own question.

Pretty sure I didn't.  I'm still wondering what your definition of "Power" is. 

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Um, no. They were straight up just mistborn. They didn't even display any amount of raw power that was beyond her.

Did you read the same book I did?  Even Kel was afraid of Inquisitors.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Nale's power: fly

Dalinar's power: Travel between realms, summon infinite Stormlight, read people's past etc.

He is by every metric more powerful.

Having a variety of powers doesn't make one MORE powerful.  Nale is a herald with 5000+ years of experience.  And Nale ALSO has Division, and is of the 5th ideal.  Which means he has Plate that he apparently keeps invisible.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And Wax can take his gun away and fly out of reach. Then neither of them can be hurt.

Right, casue that obviously worked in the books. I forgot that chapter.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Undisplayed powers from a narrative point might as well not exist.

How does...how does that even make sense?  Oh, the Inquisitors didn't display all their abilities, so they obviously didn't have them.  My goodness.  Why do I even get into these conversations with you?

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Vasher was better at the magic so therefore he was the more powerful of the two. Vasher never had to improvise or think on his feet, he just pulled out a strategy he had already used and won, with simple raw power.

He adapted to fighting people who were stronger and better fighters than he was. 

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Vin had access to vastly more Investiture than the Inquisitors, but that's beside the point.

Only she didn't, because she didn't draw from it.  She was wearing her earing.  

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dumad displayed more power than Wax, and so he had more power than Wax.

He displayed more powers, but Power has more to do with than how many powers you have.  Power has more to do with than just the amount of Investiture you can draw on.  

This was not the first time that a character faced off against someone who was objectively more powerful than they were.  The books are littered with characters fighting people way over their pay grade.  Some times they win, sometimes they don't.  

AND EVEN IF Dumad was "more powerful" than Wax, if that's the case, he was also "More powerful" than Wayne, and Wayne beat him.  The amount of power has nothing to do with it.  It's how that power is applied that matters.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Did you read the same book I did?  Even Kel was afraid of Inquisitors.

And?

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Having a variety of powers doesn't make one MORE powerful.  Nale is a herald with 5000+ years of experience.  And Nale ALSO has Division, and is of the 5th ideal.  Which means he has Plate that he apparently keeps invisible.

Dalinar can literally strip Nale of his heraldship. Bondsmiths are literally the most powerful thing we've seen outside of Dawnshards and Shards, by far.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Right, casue that obviously worked in the books. I forgot that chapter.

It did, Wax shot Miles gun out of his hand when on the train, pretty much left him impotent.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

How does...how does that even make sense?  Oh, the Inquisitors didn't display all their abilities, so they obviously didn't have them.  My goodness.  Why do I even get into these conversations with you?

If you look closer you would find I didn't say they didn't exist, I said that if they weren't shown, then ON A NARRATIVE LEVEL they might as well not exist.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

He adapted to fighting people who were stronger and better fighters than he was.

That only worked if he had more power than them.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Only she didn't, because she didn't draw from it.  She was wearing her earing.

And the Inquisitors didn't tap metalminds.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Frustration

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think the idea that it’s the tricks the characters pull to win was displayed really well in this book. At least until the ending, as they did need Hemalurgy and lerasium to disassemble the bomb, but they also used their brains there to make sure it actually worked.

Wax vs Dumad (and Wayne killing Dumad) was a great example of that. Wax couldn’t use any of his powers safely, and just had to rely on skill and, admittedly, a good bit of luck with actually getting a vial back when falling. He didn’t suddenly realize he was Mistborn and Nicroburst him or something. And Wayne didn’t win because of his powers, he won because he read Dumad like a book and stole his metal vial. He survived that fight because of his powers, but they weren’t what killed Dumad. 

Also a few examples of people really going up against a more powerful foe and winning would be Kaladin vs Yelig-Nar Amaram (which he won because he was more skilled, along with Amaram’s weakpoint and Rock) and Dalinar and the Windrunners vs Ishar (which Dalinar only “won” because of Deus Ex Nightblood. Maybe a deserved one, because that’s why he brought Szeth along, but still.)

Better one would probably be Vin vs Zane or Shan Elariel, where she won by countering atium and not via the mists or breaking copperclouds. But that’s only one power rather than a nearly-complete counter. (And maybe she did break Shan’s coppercloud, it’s been a while.)

[Frustration he/him]

9 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I think the idea that it’s the tricks the characters pull to win was displayed really well in this book. At least until the ending, as they did need Hemalurgy and lerasium to disassemble the bomb, but they also used their brains there to make sure it actually worked.

Yeah, the thought that went into it was so much cooler than chance victory. As was Wax spending the entire fight on the back foot, and having to make up for it in skill and ingenuity.

10 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Kaladin vs Yelig-Nar Amaram (which he won because he was more skilled, along with Amaram’s weakpoint and Rock)

Now that is true.

11 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Dalinar and the Windrunners vs Ishar (which Dalinar only “won” because of Deus Ex Nightblood. Maybe a deserved one, because that’s why he brought Szeth along, but still.)

Better one would probably be Vin vs Zane or Shan Elariel, where she won by countering atium and not via the mists or breaking copperclouds. But that’s only one power rather than a nearly-complete counter. (And maybe she did break Shan’s coppercloud, it’s been a while.)

I'd argue these are all equal power, Dalinar and Ishar both being Bondsmiths, and Vin, Shan, and Zane all being Mistborn.

[Ashbringer he/him]

One other thing I forgot to mention - Twinsoul and Moonlight’s powers could easily have solved a lot of things, but they also didn’t overwhelmingly solve every problem. It wasn’t aethers or Forgery->AonDor that finally saved Scadrial from Autonomy’s army, it was Marasi using her head. (And admittedly a jar of refined Dor, but it was specifically there to be used and was used in a way we already knew was possible.)

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'd argue these are all equal power, Dalinar and Ishar both being Bondsmiths, and Vin, Shan, and Zane all being Mistborn.

Equal power, probably. Equal skill, not so much - Ishar has millenia of experience over Dalinar and thus would probably win in an outright Bondsmithing fight, at least at that point in RoW.

But that does make it skill with power vs skill from non-powers/improvisation, which is a bit different from what makes Wax vs Dumad so interesting (overwhelming power vs improvisation). Still interesting, just not the same way.

[lacrossedeamon]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar can literally strip Nale of his heraldship. Bondsmiths are literally the most powerful thing we've seen outside of Dawnshards and Shards, by far.

You can’t argue this while also arguing this:

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

He didn't even use his powers, so in terms of storytelling he might as well have not had them.

God these threads are such a trainwreck and yet I can’t look away.

[Frustration he/him]

10 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

You can’t argue this while also arguing this:

God these threads are such a trainwreck and yet I can’t look away.

Did you read the entire thread, or did you just skim it and make a post based on what you got out of it?

Because if you had read the entire thing you would have realized that I said that in terms of storytelling that unshown powers might as well not exist, Tglassy then said that Nale is more powerful than Dalinar, sighting powers that were at that point unseen, so I pointed out that counting unseen powers Dalinar was more powerful.

Perhaps instead of automatically assuming I'm being illogical, read through everything and get the context behind the conversation.

[lacrossedeamon]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Did you read the entire thread, or did you just skim it and make a post based on what you got out of it?

Because if you had read the entire thing you would have realized that I said that in terms of storytelling that unshown powers might as well not exist, Tglassy then said that Nale is more powerful than Dalinar, sighting powers that were at that point unseen, so I pointed out that counting unseen powers Dalinar was more powerful.

Perhaps instead of automatically assuming I'm being illogical, read through everything and get the context behind the conversation.

No. No no no. No. I did read the whole thread. You at no point go “by according to your logic…” or something similar in order to recontextualize your statement. If that’s what you meant you need to get better at conveying your argument otherwise it is you that needs actually read the thread to see the actual explicit context. Also what about when you point out Dalinar can travel between realms which we have never seen him do before Tglassy pointed out Nale having access to Division and living Plate?

You also really do need to define what you mean by “more powers/powerful” because at some points it just seem to mean access to “surges”. Which by that logic Miles is more powerful than Wax because yes they are both twinborn but Miles is also a compounder thus “more powerful”. In regards to Vasher and Denth both are Returned Awakeners so equal on that regard but we don’t know their Heightenings during their confrontation so we can’t actually judge. Ishar and Dalinar being the same level of power is laughable; Dalinar is Third Ideal while Ishar is Unbonded. However you also in some places seem to use “more power/powerful” to mean more skillful but rejects when others bringing it up in regards to experience.

[Frustration he/him]

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

No. No no no. No. I did read the whole thread. You at no point go “by according to your logic…” or something similar in order to recontextualize your statement. If that’s what you meant you need to get better at conveying your argument otherwise it is you that needs actually read the thread to see the actual explicit context. 

There is explicit statements, and there are implied statements. I assume that people here have some level of rational thought, and that I do not need to walk them through every step of my thought process. When you point out powers we have not seen Nale do, even if we know he has them, I will point out powers that we know Dalinar has.

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

 Also what about when you point out Dalinar can travel between realms which we have never seen him do before Tglassy pointed out Nale having access to Division and living Plate?

You mean aside from the end of Oathbringer, and the fact that in that same scene he literally thinks that he will take the mink and flee to the CR if things go bad?

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

You also really do need to define what you mean by “more powers/powerful” because at some points it just seem to mean access to “surges”. Which by that logic Miles is more powerful than Wax because yes they are both twinborn but Miles is also a compounder thus “more powerful”. 

Power is defined by access, and ability to use Investiture. So no, Miles is not more powerful.

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Vasher and Denth both are Returned Awakeners so equal on that regard but we don’t know their Heightenings during their confrontation so we can’t actually judge.

Yes we do, Vasher had 25 breath, Denth had 1.

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Ishar and Dalinar being the same level of power is laughable; Dalinar is Third Ideal while Ishar is Unbonded.

They are both unchained.

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

However you also in some places seem to use “more power/powerful” to mean more skillful but rejects when others bringing it up in regards to experience.

Are you referring to me saying Vasher is more skilled with awakening, when Tglassy said that Denth was more skilled with a sword?

Edited January 16, 2023 by Frustration

[Tglassy]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

There is explicit statements, and there are implied statements. I assume that people here have some level of rational thought, and that I do not need to walk them through every step of my thought process. When you point out powers we have not seen Nale do, even if we know he has them, I will point out powers that we know Dalinar has.

WE might SPECULATE that Dalinar has powers, but DALINAR has no freaking idea what he can do, and thereofre, cannot do them.  You do not KNOW that as a 3rd Oath Bondsmith that he can just strip someone of the Oathpact.  That may take the 5th Oath, for all we know.  It is entirely speculative. However, we KNOW that Nale not only has access to Plate and Division, but he also KNOWS how to use them to the utmost degree.  If you didn't fanboy Dalinar so much, maybe we could have actual conversations.

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Power is defined by access, and ability to use Investiture. So no, Miles is not more powerful.

Miles LITERALLY has access and the ability to use more Investiture than Wax ever will.  So by your own definition, yes, Miles is more powerful. 

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

They are both unchained.

But Dalinar is limited by his Oath level, and Ishar isn't.  Ishar is unchained.  Dalinar still has abilities he can't access because he hasn't said the right words.  That's not Unchained.  That's litearlly, actually, not even figuratively chained.  Even if the Stormfather said he WOULD be a "Bondsmith unchained", that doesn't mean he currently is.  And even if he was, as said before, Dalinar has no freaking cluse what he can do.  he's stumbling along by accident, while Ishar has been an "Unchained Bondsmith" for thousands of years.  

[lacrossedeamon]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

There is explicit statements, and there are implied statements. I assume that people here have some level of rational thought, and that I do not need to walk them through every step of my thought process. When you point out powers we have not seen Nale do, even if we know he has them, I will point out powers that we know Dalinar has.

That’s not how that works when you, before and after the Dalinar statements, assert we should not be doing that with nothing implying why your one case with Dalinar is different. Let me assure you the steps of your thought process are very far from logical.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

You mean aside from the end of Oathbringer, and the fact that in that same scene he literally thinks that he will take the mink and flee to the CR if things go bad?

You mean where he muses on it but in fact does not display said power so by your rules we should still discount it. Got it.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Power is defined by access, and ability to use Investiture. So no, Miles is not more powerful.

Miles as a compounder has more access and ability to use Investiture than a regular twinborn.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Yes we do, Vasher had 25 breath, Denth had 1.

If true then yes Vasher had more “power” in you definition of it.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

They are both unchained.

Very false. Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather and thus has to follow his Oaths. Ishar is Unbonded. The Stormfather even makes the distinction.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Are you referring to me saying Vasher is more skilled with awakening, when Tglassy said that Denth was more skilled with a sword?

Partially but also you disregarding (or at least not addressing) the comments about Nale’s and Ishar’s millennia of experience.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

WE might SPECULATE that Dalinar has powers, but DALINAR has no freaking idea what he can do, and thereofre, cannot do them.  You do not KNOW that as a 3rd Oath Bondsmith that he can just strip someone of the Oathpact.  That may take the 5th Oath, for all we know.  It is entirely speculative. However, we KNOW that Nale not only has access to Plate and Division, but he also KNOWS how to use them to the utmost degree.  If you didn't fanboy Dalinar so much, maybe we could have actual conversations.

We do in fact know that, as it was Bondsmith powers that made the oathpact.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Miles LITERALLY has access and the ability to use more Investiture than Wax ever will.  So by your own definition, yes, Miles is more powerful. 

No he doesn't, he can simply store that Investiture for later use. Wax's Investiture is just more spread out.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

 But Dalinar is limited by his Oath level, and Ishar isn't.  Ishar is unchained.  Dalinar still has abilities he can't access because he hasn't said the right words.  That's not Unchained.  That's litearlly, actually, not even figuratively chained.  Even if the Stormfather said he WOULD be a "Bondsmith unchained", that doesn't mean he currently is.  And even if he was, as said before, Dalinar has no freaking cluse what he can do.  he's stumbling along by accident, while Ishar has been an "Unchained Bondsmith" for thousands of years.  

That doesn't make Ishar more powerful.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

That’s not how that works when you, before and after the Dalinar statements, assert we should not be doing that with nothing implying why your one case with Dalinar is different. Let me assure you the steps of your thought process are very far from logical.

Alright, I'll walk you through every step then.

If Tglassy says that Nale is more powerful based on powers we have not seen, then I will point out powers Dalinar has that we have not seen. This is done to poke holes in the opponents argument by showing that even on their own standards they do not work.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

You mean where he muses on it but in fact does not display said power so by your rules we should still discount it. Got it.

You are determined to split hairs here and take everything I say as literally as possible in order to cause a fight aren't you?

This is a narrative analysis, not an in world analysis. Given that context anything that happens in the text is considered a display. Whether or not it is thoughts or words of the characters.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Miles as a compounder has more access and ability to use Investiture than a regular twinborn.

That's not true, the only difference is when they used the power. Miles could simply store it for use later, he didn't have more.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Very false. Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather and thus has to follow his Oaths. Ishar is Unbonded. The Stormfather even makes the distinction.

Unchained and unoathed are two different things. Ishar might not have oaths, but that does not give him access to more power.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Partially but also you disregarding (or at least not addressing) the comments about Nale’s and Ishar’s millennia of experience.

Skill is a non factor here, the only time it has been brought up by me is in counter arguments done to point out flaws in others reasoning, never as a point of power unto itself.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Alright, I'll walk you through every step then.

If Tglassy says that Nale is more powerful based on powers we have not seen, then I will point out powers Dalinar has that we have not seen. This is done to poke holes in the opponents argument by showing that even on their own standards they do not work.

I got that but it’s bad rhetorical tradecraft when arguing against doing that later in the same post without acknowledging the contradiction. Otherwise you just seem to be hypocritically cherry picking data.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

You are determined to split hairs here and take everything I say as literally as possible in order to cause a fight aren't you?

This is a narrative analysis, not an in world analysis. Given that context anything that happens in the text is considered a display. Whether or not it is thoughts or words of the characters.

Maybe you should relinquish your handle and give it to me then?

In the context of the narrative Dalinar traveling between the realms never happens thus you should have never brought it up according to your own criteria of what powers should be allowed to be considered.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's not true, the only difference is when they used the power. Miles could simply store it for use later, he didn't have more.

You criteria for power were “access” and “ability”. Miles via compounding can burn his metalminds which is an ability that Wax does not have and through that ability can gain access to more Investiture than regular Allomancy or Feruchemy (hence the term compounding).

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Unchained and unoathed are two different things. Ishar might not have oaths, but that does not give him access to more power.

Please explain the difference because the Stormfather seems to disagree.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Skill is a non factor here, the only time it has been brought up by me is in counter arguments done to point out flaws in others reasoning, never as a point of power unto itself.

This kind of goes back to the first issue but if it is valid as a counterargument then it must be valid as an original argument otherwise you are moving goalposts.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Quote

Unchained and unoathed are two different things. Ishar might not have oaths, but that does not give him access to more power.

 

Please explain the difference because the Stormfather seems to disagree.

Unchained = Bondsmith (or other Surgebinder) able to use Surges in a way that was not possible before Honor died, as Honor placed restrictions on them to prevent repetition of Ashyn

Unoathed = Bondsmith (or other Surgebinder) using Surgebinding without swearing Oaths (i.e. someone wielding Honorblades, Yelig-Nar host, etc.) and so someone who does not have to behave in accordance with any Oaths

Unchained/unbound implies more power then was available in the past (i.e. seeing Connections and directly manipulating them for Bondsmiths, opening Perpendicularity, potentially ability to manipulate Axi for Cohesion).
Unoathed merely implies that the person swore no Oaths and so can behave in 'improper' fashion (i.e. Ishar experimenting on Spren).

Note that unchained Bondsmith is considered by Brandon to be more dangerous than Nightblood (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/484/#e15774).

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I got that but it’s bad rhetorical tradecraft when arguing against doing that later in the same post without acknowledging the contradiction. Otherwise you just seem to be hypocritically cherry picking data.

Well I've been using those arguments here for years, and you're the first person who hasn't understood them.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

In the context of the narrative Dalinar traveling between the realms never happens thus you should have never brought it up according to your own criteria of what powers should be allowed to be considered.

I literally just explained how it is.

And if you are still going to split hairs based on any twist in semantics you can, let me ask you: What are you trying to accomplish here?

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

You criteria for power were “access” and “ability”. Miles via compounding can burn his metalminds which is an ability that Wax does not have and through that ability can gain access to more Investiture than regular Allomancy or Feruchemy (hence the term compounding).

No it doesn't, compounding is simply using Allomancy to power feruchemy, it does not grant more power than Allomancy would when burning the same metal, the only difference is what form that power takes. So, they both have two abilities, and the same amount of Investiture.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Please explain the difference because the Stormfather seems to disagree.

@therunner just did an excellent job at that. Unoathed surgebinders are not more powerful, simply not bound by the moral code the oaths require.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

This kind of goes back to the first issue but if it is valid as a counterargument then it must be valid as an original argument otherwise you are moving goalposts.

If I'm looking at things exclusively based on how they impact the story and find something about the narrative structure of said story, why should your argument based around things that do not impact the story (or in this case something that is not power when I am analysing power) be acceptable as a counter argument when not only does it fail to work as a narrative analysis system, but also fails to work as an argument using their criteria as well?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

I consider "skill" an important part of "power", as without proper skill, any power is just useless. In that sense most opponents main characters faced were more powerful than main characters were.

Wax and Dumad fight is however interesting as it was pointed out, Wax had to improvise. However it was not the first time we see this in books.

Also Elend vs Marsh fight at the end of HoA, Marsh by @Frustration definition of "power" was vastly more powerful than Elend, because Marsh had access to feruchemy and compounding, Elend didn't. Some inquisitors might also be more powerful than Mistborn like Vin or Kel, because they could be made out of full Mistborn not just Seeker. I don't think we know who that might be. Sazed vs Marsh in HoA. While both Vin and Zane both were spiked, Zane got more combat oriented ability, which in fight made him more powerful than Vin. And he had Atium, Vin didn't.

And fight at the end of BoM when Wax had to face both his uncle and sister who both hold multiple spikes, and therefore have more power than Wax, before he got Bands.

Kaladin vs multiple Shardbearers in SA - when in many of those fights Kal was lacking skill to use his powers, didn't progress in Oaths enough to gain new powers or like in his fight against Shallan's brother, he didn't have them at all. Kal vs Amaram. Adolin, Dalinar and Gavilar fighting Szeth. Dalinar vs Eshonai in WoK - Eshonai is more powerful as she was bonded with spren.

So Wax vs Dumad was far from being first fight like this. It's always like this. 

Nale has Honorblade and is 5th ideal Skybreaker so he gets some effects out of this combination, which by some definitions can be consider more powerful

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

 

By the definition of the word "power" - the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way - compounding is the ability to do something that others can't do, thus it gives more power. Also, without skill you don't have ability to do something, but you have capacity to do it in the future.

This whole topic just turned into an argument "which definition of word power is the right one" - shocking answer, all are.

Edited January 17, 2023 by alder24

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well I've been using those arguments here for years, and you're the first person who hasn't understood them.

I guess I’m the first one to call you on your hypocritical rhetoric.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

I literally just explained how it is.

And if you are still going to split hairs based on any twist in semantics you can, let me ask you: What are you trying to accomplish here?

Just trying to apply your criteria fairly across the board.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

No it doesn't, compounding is simply using Allomancy to power feruchemy, it does not grant more power than Allomancy would when burning the same metal, the only difference is what form that power takes. So, they both have two abilities, and the same amount of Investiture.

By Compounding Miles can use his Feruchemical gold at least 10 times the output Wax can use his Feruchemical iron. That is more power.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

@therunner just did an excellent job at that. Unoathed surgebinders are not more powerful, simply not bound by the moral code the oaths require.

You and @therunner need to reread RoW. Stormfather calls Ishar Unchained. That WOB is referring to Ishar.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

If I'm looking at things exclusively based on how they impact the story and find something about the narrative structure of said story, why should your argument based around things that do not impact the story (or in this case something that is not power when I am analysing power) be acceptable as a counter argument when not only does it fail to work as a narrative analysis system, but also fails to work as an argument using their criteria as well?

Then again you need to define “power” better because most people would consider “skill” or “experience” a form of power. And once clarified don’t make counterpoints based on criteria you previous dismissed. It is poor rhetoric.

[Frustration he/him]

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I guess I’m the first one to call you on your hypocritical rhetoric.

You're just the first person who can't figure out the difference.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Just trying to apply your criteria fairly across the board.

Yes, that's why you're twisting words and trying to start a fight.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

By Compounding Miles can use his Feruchemical gold at least 10 times the output Wax can use his Feruchemical iron. That is more power.

And? Wax gets the same power out of his steel.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

You and @therunner need to reread RoW. Stormfather calls Ishar Unchained. That WOB is referring to Ishar.

It is you who needs a reread.

Quote

It should not be possible, but Honor no longer lives to enforce his laws. . .

-RoW 1159

The reason Ishar is unchained is because Honor is dead, not because he has an honorblade.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Then again you need to define “power” better because most people would consider “skill” or “experience” a form of power.

No, skill is in application, power is ability.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

And once clarified don’t make counterpoints based on criteria you previous dismissed. It is poor rhetoric.

Then don't make arguments that aren't within that criteria. And if you do except me to make counterpoints showing why you argument is flawed.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Also Elend vs Marsh fight at the end of HoA, Marsh by @Frustration definition of "power" was vastly more powerful than Elend, because Marsh had access to feruchemy and compounding, Elend didn't. 

Powered up on Shards as they were, that didn't matter.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

And fight at the end of BoM when Wax had to face both his uncle and sister who both hold multiple spikes, and therefore have more power than Wax, before he got Bands.

And they didn't fight before Wax got the bands. Wax pulled a gun on Telsin and got shot, crawled away and got shot again. Everyone else surrendered or ran.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kaladin vs multiple Shardbearers in SA - when in many of those fights Kal was lacking skill to use his powers, didn't progress in Oaths enough to gain new powers or like in his fight against Shallan's brother, he didn't have them at all. 

He did have some powers even before becoming a slave, we saw Syl in his PoV of the battle with Helaran.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kal vs Amaram.

Already talked about above.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Adolin, Dalinar and Gavilar fighting Szeth. 

With Gavilar we saw through Szeth's PoV, so the protagonist had more power. Adolin and Dalinar also had Kaladin, who was as powerful as Szeth.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Dalinar vs Eshonai in WoK - Eshonai is more powerful as she was bonded with spren.

Stronger perhaps, but not more powerful.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nale has Honorblade and is 5th ideal Skybreaker so he gets some effects out of this combination, which by some definitions can be consider more powerful

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

 

Which doesn't affect the story.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

No, skill is in application, power is ability.

Definition of ability: 

1. possession of the means or skill to do something. 
2. talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area.

So if power is defined by ability, and ability is defined by skill, it means skill is part of power.

We're gonna argue semantics, I will use definitions of words. That's why it's pointless to argue semantics. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Powered up on Shards as they were, that didn't matter.

It does matter by your own definition, as Marsh has access to 21 abilities in total, while Elend only to 16. Marsh doesn't have useless ones like gold/aluminum/malatium etc, and has more combat focus ones and feruchemical powers like F-iron etc. It's your main point: 

On 15.01.2023 at 0:28 AM, Frustration said:

this is the first time Cosmere characters have actually gone up against someone more powerful than themselves [...]

Dumad has not only more powers than Wax, but he has more combat focused ones as well

If you disagree on this one then I will use your logic and claim that Wax is much more powerful than Dumad, as Wax at this point was weak-Mistborn, and has access to every allomantic ability, but he just did not use it. Just because he didn’t use them doesn't mean that he was weaker - which you used as an argument for your own claims to prove Dalinar is more powerful, while denying the same argument to prove Nale is more powerful.

On 15.01.2023 at 7:46 PM, Frustration said:

On 15.01.2023 at 5:34 PM, Tglassy said:

Lift vs Nale.  He's a Harald, and she survived him twice.  He vastly outmatched her in every possible way.

He didn't even use his powers, so in terms of storytelling he might as well have not had them.

On 15.01.2023 at 5:34 PM, Tglassy said:

Heck, Dalinar vs Nale in RoW.  It was quick, and Szeth was there to help, but still.  

Dalinar has a lot more power than Nale.

On 16.01.2023 at 0:49 AM, Frustration said:

Dalinar can literally strip Nale of his heraldship.

Dalinar, or any other Bondsmith, has never stripped anyone of heraldship so in terms of storytelling he might as well not have that power.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And they didn't fight before Wax got the bands. Wax pulled a gun on Telsin and got shot, crawled away and got shot again. Everyone else surrendered or ran.

This is what is called "gunfight" - gun + fight - they fought, he lost. Definition of gunfight - a fight involving an exchange of fire with guns. Both siedes fired a gun, therefore there was a gunfight, therefore there was a fight.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

He did have some powers even before becoming a slave, we saw Syl in his PoV of the battle with Helaran.

Which was extremely weak. He just attracted Syl, we don't know if he bonded with her or spoke first Ideal. By the WoB I posted "strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond". His bond at that point was almost nonexistent, therefore Helaran with Shards vastly overpowered him. His Shards consumed much more Stormlight than Kalladin at this point - again, WoB I posted talks about it.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Which doesn't affect the story.

But did affect the power level of Nale, and this discussion is about power. In every confrontation Nale is more powerful than regular Radiant due to the compounding effects of Honorblade and Oaths. Both Radiant and Nale have access to 2 abilities (2 surges) and same amout of investiture (by your definition) but Nale has also unknown ability/investiture coming from his compounding so he is always stronger.

Edited January 17, 2023 by alder24

[Tglassy]

That's it.  I'm done.  @Frustration, you have frustrated me for the last time.  Your arguments are circular, you fan boy your favorite so hard you are actually incapable of seeing a point that makes the subject of your fanboyness be anything less than perfect, you twist the very definition of words to fit your criteria and to make sure your answer is correct and everyone else is "just being illogical."  You say, at the same time, that having access to more investiture measn youu're more powerful, but that Miles isn't more powerful, even though he's been compounding his Investiture for years and basically has an infinite battery while Was only has what is in his steel at the time, but for some reason having a near infinite battery vs an extremely small bettery isn't more powerful.  

I'm done.  I'm muting you on this forum.  You can't have an intelligent conversation and I can't resist answering when someone is being intellectually dishonest, thus giving myself high blood pressure.  Thank you for making the "Ultimate who would win" thread, as that took a lot of work and I absolutely love that kind of thing, but I can't read your posts anymore.  Enjoy the books in your way.  I'm out.