The first fight between Wax and Dumad, and why it's the best fight scene in the Cosmere.

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

You just the first person who can't figure out the difference.

And the difference is what exactly? Poor rhetoric?

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yes, that's why you're twisting words and trying to start a fight.

Frustrating isn’t it? Luckily I’m not the only one calling you out on this now.

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If you disagree on this one then I will use your logic and claim that Wax is much more powerful than Dumad, as Wax at this point was weak-Mistborn, and has access to every allomantic ability, but he just did not use it. Just because he didn’t use them doesn't mean that he was weaker - which you used as an argument for your own claims to prove Dalinar is more powerful, while denying the same argument to prove Nale is more powerful.

Dalinar, or any other Bondsmith, has never stripped anyone of heraldship so in terms of storytelling he might as well not have that power.

It’s fine when @Frustration does it… for reasons.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And? Wax gets the same power out of his steel.

No. Wax being a Steelshot is canceled by Miles being an Auger. Wax being a Skimmer is canceled out by Miles being a Bloodmaker. Miles being a Compounder that can burn his gold metalminds isn’t canceled out by any for Wax.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

It is you who needs a reread.

The reason Ishar is unchained is because Honor is dead, not because he has an honorblade.

Technically the Stormfather calls him unchained in regards to Ishar having regained his Honorblade. The part you quoted comes pages later after a few different POV changes. Now if we are claiming both are unchained then I’d say Ishar is still more powerful because he is also unbonded and thus has the ability to use his surges in ways Dalinar would not be able to. Of course you can say that a skill issue which is then of course a different matter altogether.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, skill is in application, power is ability.

Now we are getting somewhere. Would have been nice if you had clarified that from the beginning instead of deflect or ignore when @Tglassy asked multiple times. It wasn’t very clear to begin with that you only meant Invested power by just saying power. Maybe use “surge” since Brandon has said that’ll kind be the byword for any Invested ability?

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Then don't make arguments that aren't within that criteria. And if you do except me to make counterpoints showing why you argument is flawed.

As stated above your criteria were not very clear. And made less clear by you engaging in counterarguments that contradicted your own criteria. The only valid counterpoint was to state skill based usage of the same surge is not considered more power, the moment you actually start debating skill you validate it’s presence in the argument.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It does matter by your own definition, as Marsh has access to 21 abilities in total, while Elend only to 16. Marsh doesn't have useless ones like gold/aluminum/malatium etc, and has more combat focus ones and feruchemical powers like F-iron etc. It's your main point: 

No, the combat focus was a secondary point.

And reguardless at that level of investiture the separate powers start to become meaningless. Fueled by mists a-Pewter heals as well as f-gold(As seen by vin healing her legs and fingers at Kredik Shaw). Once you get to that point raw investiture pretty much levels any minute differences.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

If you disagree on this one then I will use your logic and claim that Wax is much more powerful than Dumad, as Wax at this point was weak-Mistborn, and has access to every allomantic ability, but he just did not use it.

Did he just not use it, or was his dose of Lerasium so small that it made no preceptable difference?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Dalinar, or any other Bondsmith, has never stripped anyone of heraldship so in terms of storytelling he might as well not have that power.

I already replied to this very point, but I'll go over it again. Nale has never displayed division, or Shardplate, if you want to argue that those make him more powerful than Dalinar I will point out unchained bondsmith's potential. It was not an argument made on it's own merits, but to point out the flaws in another argument. Think satire, except it's not funny,

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

This is what is called "gunfight" - gun + fight - they fought, he lost. Definition of gunfight - a fight involving an exchange of fire with guns. Both siedes fired a gun, therefore there was a gunfight, therefore there was a fight.

No, only the Set fired guns, Wax just pointed his.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which was extremely weak. He just attracted Syl, we don't know if he bonded with her or spoke first Ideal. By the WoB I posted "strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond". His bond at that point was almost nonexistent, therefore Helaran with Shards vastly overpowered him. His Shards consumed much more Stormlight than Kalladin at this point - again, WoB I posted talks about it.

A fabrial that you touched duralumin to would consume a lot more stormlight than another one, reguardless of which one actually held more power.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

But did affect the power level of Nale, and this discussion is about power. In every confrontation Nale is more powerful than regular Radiant due to the compounding effects of Honorblade and Oaths. Both Radiant and Nale have access to 2 abilities (2 surges) and same amout of investiture (by your definition) but Nale has also unknown ability/investiture coming from his compounding so he is always stronger.

And is the fact that having an honorblade and being a radiant of the smae order making you stronger something that the story brings up or something we only know from WoB's?

48 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

you fan boy your favorite so hard you are actually incapable of seeing a point that makes the subject of your fanboyness be anything less than perfect,

And you know the things I like because?

Or are you just guessing based on what I think is strong?

48 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

You say, at the same time, that having access to more investiture measn youu're more powerful, but that Miles isn't more powerful, even though he's been compounding his Investiture for years and basically has an infinite battery while Was only has what is in his steel at the time, but for some reason having a near infinite battery vs an extremely small bettery isn't more powerful.

That's not a difference in power, just when it's used.

48 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I'm done.  I'm muting you on this forum.

So I do not receive a notification when that happens, I had wondered if I would.

48 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Thank you for making the "Ultimate who would win" thread, as that took a lot of work and I absolutely love that kind of thing,

Thank you.

43 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

And the difference is what exactly? Poor rhetoric?

One is an actual argument, the other is unfunny satire.

44 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Frustrating isn’t it?

So you admit that you came here specifically to start an argument?

45 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

No. Wax being a Steelshot is canceled by Miles being an Auger. Wax being a Skimmer is canceled out by Miles being a Bloodmaker. Miles being a Compounder that can burn his gold metalminds isn’t canceled out by any for Wax.

A compounder is using allomancy to fuel feruchemy. It's the same amount of power as being an augur.

45 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Now we are getting somewhere. Would have been nice if you had clarified that from the beginning instead of deflect or ignore when @Tglassy asked multiple times. It wasn’t very clear to begin with that you only meant Invested power by just saying power. 

It's kind of the standard definition when browsing these kinds of discussions, I guess I just assumed everyone already knew that, which is my bad, I'll admit.

47 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

As stated above your criteria were not very clear. And made less clear by you engaging in counterarguments that contradicted your own criteria. The only valid counterpoint was to state skill based usage of the same surge is not considered more power, the moment you actually start debating skill you validate it’s presence in the argument.

I made that kind of argument

It was ignored, so I pointed out the flaw in the argument that Nale was more powerful, which worked until someone else brought it up.

 

[alder24]

 

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, the combat focus was a secondary point.

That's why I counted the abilities that each has. Marsh has 21, Elend 16. Marsh is more powerful by your definition. Period. Don't ignore the numbers.

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Did he just not use it, or was his dose of Lerasium so small that it made no preceptable difference?

It was perceived multiple times in the book, it was suggested to us that he was burning other metals than steel. But he didn't know it, and by my logic that makes him less powerful, but by your logic it doesn't matter if he knew or not, he had those powers. 

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I already replied to this very point, but I'll go over it again. Nale has never displayed division, or Shardplate, if you want to argue that those make him more powerful than Dalinar I will point out unchained bondsmith's potential. It was not an argument made on it's own merits, but to point out the flaws in another argument. Think satire, except it's not funny,

I worded my statement very precisely, as I knew you would answer in that way: 

Quote

Just because he didn’t use them doesn't mean that he was weaker - which you used as an argument for your own claims to prove Dalinar is more powerful, while denying the same argument to prove Nale is more powerful.

Moreover we are talking about power levels. You can't just ignore one power granted by the surge of Division just because it wasn't used. It doesn't matter if it was used, he has Division, he has 2 surges. That's what matters. I'm not discussing what he can do with Division or Shardplate, which is what you are doing with Dalinar, I'm pointing out that he has those abilities, like Dalinar has Bondsmith abilities. Saying that Dalinar can remove someone from Oathpact is not equal to saying Nale has Division. 

Btw, Dalinar's Oath to "unite people'' might make him unable to divide Herald and Oathpact. 

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, only the Set fired guns, Wax just pointed his.

No, Wax fired as well. ch26. It was a fight which Was lost.

Quote

“Don’t do this.” He hesitated. Too long. She raised the gun.
He fired. She did the same. His shot swerved away from her, Pushed by Allomancy. But her shot—aluminum—took him just below the neck.

 

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And is the fact that having an honorblade and being a radiant of the smae order making you stronger something that the story brings up or something we only know from WoB's?

It doesn't matter, I'm talking about power levels. I can't ignore someone's abilities and surges just because he didn't use it. He has Division, 2 surges, he holds Honorblade, it makes some compounding effects. He is more powerful that regular Radiant.

Edited January 17, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

50 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's why I counted the abilities that each has. Marsh has 21, Elend 16. Marsh is more powerful by your definition. Period. Don't ignore the numbers.

With direct fueling the number is irrelevant, as the mist will be channeled by the user.

Spoiler

mooglefrooglian

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

Brandon Sanderson

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

uchoo786

How much crossover is there in use? Like if one "breathes" in the mists they can use it to power their allomancy. Could an Allomancer utilize stormlight to power his allomancy as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the magics can be hacked together in one way or another, but some are easier to interchange than others.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3415

 

 

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It was perceived multiple times in the book, it was suggested to us that he was burning other metals than steel. But he didn't know it, and by my logic that makes him less powerful, but by your logic it doesn't matter if he knew or not, he had those powers. 

1. We don't know exactly how powerful Wax became, so that's hard to say.

2. The only hint I can think of is him pushing on a bullet, and maybe grabbing the vial. 

3. It didn't impact the narrative, so on a narrative level it might as well not have happened.

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I worded my statement very precisely, as I knew you would answer in that way: 

Moreover we are talking about power levels. You can't just ignore one power granted by the surge of Division just because it wasn't used. It doesn't matter if it was used, he has Division, he has 2 surges. That's what matters. I'm not discussing what he can do with Division or Shardplate, which is what you are doing with Dalinar, I'm pointing out that he has those abilities, like Dalinar has Bondsmith abilities. Saying that Dalinar can remove someone from Oathpact is not equal to saying Nale has Division. 

This is a narrative analysis, and as each one has had equal narrative weight, yes they are equal.

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 No, Wax fired as well. ch26. It was a fight which Was lost.

Huh, very well, there is another fight.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It doesn't matter, I'm talking about power levels. I can't ignore someone's abilities and surges just because he didn't use it. He has Division, 2 surges, he holds Honorblade, it makes some compounding effects. He is more powerful that regular Radiant.

Well, I'm making a narrative analysis, and anything that doesn't impact the narrative is therefore not considered.

[therunner he/him]

I don't have a horse in this race, just a few points

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's why I counted the abilities that each has. Marsh has 21, Elend 16. Marsh is more powerful by your definition. Period. Don't ignore the numbers.

Marsh does not have 21 powers, he has 21 spikes. Some spikes are necessary due to his nature as hemalurgic construct (i.e. lynchpin spike, spikes in eyes) and don't necessarily grant additional powers.
That said, he does have several Feruchemy powers (Gold, Atium, Pewter and Steel), which makes him more "powerful".
Though technically he has nearly the same amount of powers, as Elend has 16 as Mistborn though he cannot use some due to lack of metals, and Marsh has 4 Feruchemical + 10 Alllomantic (which are confirmed). So stricly speaking Elend has more 'powers/abilities' but cannot use some, and Marsh has fewer but can use all + can Compound.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Btw, Dalinar's Oath to "unite people'' might make him unable to divide Herald and Oathpact.

I would say no, if the effect of dividing Herald and Oathpact is either done in service of 3rd Ideal, or is to help unite people more generally. (Kind of like Kalading and not protecting his enemies).

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

One is an actual argument, the other is unfunny satire.

Well then they both need work.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

So you admit that you came here specifically to start an argument?

No, I stated why I came here previously. Everything else was just bonus. 

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

A compounder is using allomancy to fuel feruchemy. It's the same amount of power as being an augur.

Not true. Feruchemist can store as much of a power so that by tapping they could boost themselves by as much power as an Allomancer would get by burning. A Compounder could then do 10 times that amount by burning that metalmind instead of tapping it. You seem to be saying that a Pewter Compounder would be only as powerful as a Twinborn Pewterarm/non pewter ferring when the first burns a pewter metalmind while the latter burns regular pewter.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's kind of the standard definition when browsing these kinds of discussions, I guess I just assumed everyone already knew that, which is my bad, I'll admit.

I made that kind of argument

It was ignored, so I pointed out the flaw in the argument that Nale was more powerful, which worked until someone else brought it up.

 

I’d say it wasn’t very clear there either but otherwise this has been settled for me.

Now on to other examples:

Lightsong and Susebron getting captured assuming the specific rebels weren’t Awakeners (possibly they were drabs to get around the life sense). Yes neither of the two actively used their power but that power does still grant passive effects. Lightsong lost due to less skill; he had more power.

Cases where a fused with only one surge beats a radiant who has access to two surges.

I can’t remember if Kaladin used both surges in his little ROW duel with Vasher but if so is that more “power” than a returned suppressing his divine breath but still using awakening?

@therunner question: how would you quantify spiked double Allomantic bronze in regards to Marsh?

Edited January 17, 2023 by lacrossedeamon

[Ashbringer he/him]

44 minutes ago, therunner said:

Marsh does not have 21 powers, he has 21 spikes. Some spikes are necessary due to his nature as hemalurgic construct (i.e. lynchpin spike, spikes in eyes) and don't necessarily grant additional powers.
That said, he does have several Feruchemy powers (Gold, Atium, Pewter and Steel), which makes him more "powerful".
Though technically he has nearly the same amount of powers, as Elend has 16 as Mistborn though he cannot use some due to lack of metals, and Marsh has 4 Feruchemical + 10 Alllomantic (which are confirmed). So stricly speaking Elend has more 'powers/abilities' but cannot use some, and Marsh has fewer but can use all + can Compound.

Also:

• Marsh, as noted, has double strength in Bronze from being a natural Misting.
• Elend is a Lerasium Mistborn, and thus is much stronger in every metal.
• Elend was being directly fueled by Vin-Preservation (which I think technically could have fueled metals he didn’t know about then).
• Elend knew he would lose and accepted it. He could have done more, but he let Marsh kill him so Vin would be willing to kill Ati.

[alder24]

53 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With direct fueling the number is irrelevant, as the mist will be channeled by the user.

The number is relevant, as Elend didn't have feruchemy.

51 minutes ago, therunner said:

Marsh does not have 21 powers, he has 21 spikes. Some spikes are necessary due to his nature as hemalurgic construct (i.e. lynchpin spike, spikes in eyes) and don't necessarily grant additional powers.
That said, he does have several Feruchemy powers (Gold, Atium, Pewter and Steel), which makes him more "powerful".
Though technically he has nearly the same amount of powers, as Elend has 16 as Mistborn though he cannot use some due to lack of metals, and Marsh has 4 Feruchemical + 10 Alllomantic (which are confirmed). So stricly speaking Elend has more 'powers/abilities' but cannot use some, and Marsh has fewer but can use all + can Compound.

Yes I'm aware of that, all original spikes (9-11 during FE) grants 1 power each. Inquisitors have all physical and mental powers from those spikes, plus Atium and some feruchemical powers like gold healing. However while Marshes spikes doesn't have to grants new abilities, they can double what he already had - eg double A-steel makes him twice as powerful. And he had access to compounding. It's all about how you define "power". For me compounding is a power.

5 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

• Elend is a Lerasium Mistborn, and thus is much stronger in every metal.

Do we know who was stronger in eg steelpush, Lerasium Mistborn or inquisitor with 2 A-steel spikes? 

53 minutes ago, Frustration said:

3. It didn't impact the narrative, so on a narrative level it might as well not have happened.

On the "narrative level" Vin didn't have Atium while Zane had, which makes him more powerful than Vin. See, there is still an example of you being wrong.

53 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well, I'm making a narrative analysis, and anything that doesn't impact the narrative is therefore not considered.

So how the h this works? "Narratively speaking" Dalinar used only the power of connection, while Nale use the powers of Gravitation, healing and his Shardblade. He still "wins" 3 to 1. It's so arbitrary to decide what is narrative important and what's not...  For me it's more narratively important that Nale had access to both of his surges and was extremely experienced fighter, vastly outpowering Dalinar and he still lost to Dalinar despite all of that. Dalinar overcoming such a powerful enemy is more narratively important than what powers were used at a given moment.

Edited January 17, 2023 by alder24

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Do we know who was stronger in eg steelpush, Lerasium Mistborn or inquisitor with 2 A-steel spikes? 

We know in the days after Lerasium was injected into the population, lone Soothers could take control of koloss/kandra where now it needs Duralumin or a “group”. I don’t think we have specific numbers. But Marsh physically can’t have enough spikes to match Elend in power in every Metal.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

@therunner question: how would you quantify spiked double Allomantic bronze in regards to Marsh?

Similar to Vin but lesser, as she was unusually strong for Era 1 allomancer.
Hence Marsh even with double bronze is also weaker than Lerasium Mistborn like Elend, as Lerasium Mistborn could potentially do things (i.e. break into hemalurgic constructs) for which Vin  Duralumin.

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes I'm aware of that, all original spikes (9-11 during FE) grants 1 power each. Inquisitors have all physical and mental powers from those spikes, plus Atium and some feruchemical powers like gold healing. However while Marshes spikes doesn't have to grants new abilities, they can double what he already had - eg double A-steel makes him twice as powerful. And he had access to compounding. It's all about how you define "power". For me compounding is a power.

Ah, apologies the eye spikes do grant powers as well, though the lynch-pin spike does not.
So Marsh has 14 powers (4 feruchemical + 10 allomantic) that we know of, 1 spike is lynchpin spike, which leaves 6 spikes for doubling other powers granted by spikes (or adding further powers, most likely feruchemical).

Already inborn power + spike is weaker than inborn power of Lerasium Mistborn (see amount of Koloss Vin can take over vs Elend), and thanks to Hemalurgic decay spike+spike would be weaker than inborn+spike.
So outside of his feruchemy, all of Marshes allomancy is weaker than Elend's.

On compounding, was Marsh doing it? Other Inquisitors weren't (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e850). Or did he figure it out later? Inquisitors were not taught that by Lord Ruler (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/246/#e5484) and it does require some figuring out to learn it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e850). So Marsh might not have had Compounding actually available to him at that point as he lacked the understanding necessary to make it work.

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Do we know who was stronger in eg steelpush, Lerasium Mistborn or inquisitor with 2 A-steel spikes?

At the time of Era 1 Lerasium Mistborn would be stronger than Inquisitor with 2 A-steel spikes.
Spiked power is weaker than what the spiked person was capable of (Hemalurgic decay), and Vin (unusually strong for Era 1) + earring was still weaker than early Allomancers as she needed Duralumin to take over Hemalurgic constructs, when back then that was not necessary (though it required some skill).
So two weakend Era 1 powers in spikes would still be weaker in raw power then Lerasium Mistborn, I would expect.

EDIT: Additionally, Elend could in principle brute-force through copperclouds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/73/#e4303), something which Vin was able to do only thanks to earring. That alone would suggest that unusually strong natural power + spike can be about on par with Lerasium Mistborn, which further suggests that 2 regular spikes would be most likely weaker. (because of Hemalurgic decay and regular mistings being weaker than Vin so spikes made out of them being weaker even for this reason).

Edited January 17, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Well then they both need work.

Wow. I, a human being, am capable of improvement. Never would have thought.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Not true. Feruchemist can store as much of a power so that by tapping they could boost themselves by as much power as an Allomancer would get by burning. A Compounder could then do 10 times that amount by burning that metalmind instead of tapping it. You seem to be saying that a Pewter Compounder would be only as powerful as a Twinborn Pewterarm/non pewter ferring when the first burns a pewter metalmind while the latter burns regular pewter.

If you had two compounders one of which stored 1 breath worth of investiture in a piece of metal, and stored 4 breath worth of investiture in a separate metalmind, and then burned the first piece of metal and stored the resulting attribute. And the second one stored 5 breaths worht of investiture in a piece of metal, and burned that, while storing all of the resulting attribute in a metalmind, they would both end up with the same amount of investiture later.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Now on to other examples:

Lightsong and Susebron getting captured assuming the specific rebels weren’t Awakeners (possibly they were drabs to get around the life sense). Yes neither of the two actively used their power but that power does still grant passive effects. Lightsong lost due to less skill; he had more power.

Cases where a fused with only one surge beats a radiant who has access to two surges.

Those are all with the protagonist having more power.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Cases where a fused with only one surge beats a radiant who has access to two surges.

Did that ever happen?

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I can’t remember if Kaladin used both surges in his little ROW duel with Vasher but if so is that more “power” than a returned suppressing his divine breath but still using awakening?

Vasher was probably no more than second heightening at that point, so yeah Kaladin was the more powerful of the two.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The number is relevant, as Elend didn't have feruchemy.

But he was just as invested, and could do basically anything that Marsh could.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

For me compounding is a power.

How? It's literally just using allomancy and then telling the power to do something else. That'd be like calling each aon a separate power.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Do we know who was stronger in eg steelpush, Lerasium Mistborn or inquisitor with 2 A-steel spikes? 

Elend wins(HoA page 40).

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

On the "narrative level" Vin didn't have Atium while Zane had, which makes him more powerful than Vin. See, there is still an example of you being wrong.

They had the same amount of power, Zane could just use his.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

So how the h this works? "Narratively speaking" Dalinar used only the power of connection, while Nale use the powers of Gravitation, healing and his Shardblade. He still "wins" 3 to 1. It's so arbitrary to decide what is narrative important and what's not...

"Used" and "displayed" are two very different words. As far as the story is concerned Nale is just a cooler, more important skybreaker, while Dalinar holds the remnatns of Honor's name and power. Dalinar has been shown to unite the realms, generate stormlight, create full lashings, repair buildings, lift increadible weights, etc. Nale has been shown to fly and wave a shardblade around.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Ah, apologies the eye spikes do grant powers as well, though the lynch-pin spike does not.
So Marsh has 14 powers (4 feruchemical + 10 allomantic) that we know of, 1 spike is lynchpin spike, which leaves 6 spikes for doubling other powers granted by spikes (or adding further powers, most likely feruchemical).

Possibly mental speed, but not confirmed on Marsh.

Spoiler

Oversleep

In the prologue to the Hero Of Ages, Marsh is using a brass spike when spiking the Keeper.

Why brass? It would allow to steal only Feruchemical Mental powers (memories, wakefulness, mental speed... warmth or determination, that's unclear) and none of them seem particularly important to killing machines the Inquisitors are. Surely Feruchemical healing, or speed, or strength or even age would be more desirable power to steal?

Brandon Sanderson

You are underestimating mental speed. And, also, versatility.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 21, 2016)

Was it said that lynch-pin spike doesn't grant any ability?

On compounding in Era 1 it's hard to say. Inquisitors were certainly using Feruchemy and were controlled directly by Ruin who knows about compounding. 

 

Great analysis @therunner I agree that double spiked inquisitor is weaker in term of strength than Lerasium Mistborn. However I will point out that Inquisitors were controlling the armies of Koloss, or at least it looked like that. So it might be that Ruin allowed them to take control over Koloss in order to trick Elend and Vin.

 

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But he was just as invested, and could do basically anything that Marsh could.

Except feruchemy...

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How? It's literally just using allomancy and then telling the power to do something else. That'd be like calling each aon a separate power.

Because compounding makes "new allomantic metal" available only for compounder. It also gives more investiture in form of attribute from burning that was initially stored in that metal. So that's a "new allomantic power" someone has. It was described like this either in book or some WoB. 

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They had the same amount of power, Zane could just use his.

"Used" and "displayed" are two very different words. As far as the story is concerned Nale is just a cooler, more important skybreaker, while Dalinar holds the remnatns of Honor's name and power. Dalinar has been shown to unite the realms, generate stormlight, create full lashings, repair buildings, lift increadible weights, etc. Nale has been shown to fly and wave a shardblade around.

You missed my point. That's what you are saying: "they didn't do that, so narratively it's like they didn't have that powers". Vin couldn't burn atium, so "narratively she didn't have that power". All powers that Dalinar had weren't use in the fight with Nale so "narratively it's like he didn't have that powers". It's what YOU are saying with that logic, not me. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Except feruchemy...

What with it? Pewter made him just as fast, and heal just as quickly, a-atium is effectively the same thing as f-zinc. Did Marsh even have any other feruchemical abilities?

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because compounding makes "new allomantic metal" available only for compounder. It also gives more investiture in form of attribute from burning that was initially stored in that metal. So that's a "new allomantic power" someone has. It was described like this either in book or some WoB. 

Sazed described it as that at the end of final empire.

Brandon said that metals are basically just aons, so compounding is just a different aon

Spoiler

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

Lyndsey Luther

Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

Brandon Sanderson

OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

Lyndsey Luther

Not quite...

Brandon Sanderson

OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

Lyndsey Luther

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful.

Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011)

 

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You missed my point. That's what you are saying: "they didn't do that, so narratively it's like they didn't have that powers". Vin couldn't burn atium, so "narratively she didn't have that power". All powers that Dalinar had weren't use in the fight with Nale so "narratively it's like he didn't have that powers". It's what YOU are saying with that logic, not me. 

It's not just a one fight, or one scene thing, it's the entirety of the book up to that point. We have seen division exactly twice, and I don't think it is even called division. The Skybreakers have never used division on screen, whereas Vin has burned atium.

[lacrossedeamon]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Wow. I, a human being, am capable of improvement. Never would have thought.

Look, interspersing “satirical” counterarguments that aren’t lampshaded isn’t a great move since it relies on the “it was just a joke” defense when called out which is never a good look.

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If you had two compounders one of which stored 1 breath worth of investiture in a piece of metal, and stored 4 breath worth of investiture in a separate metalmind, and then burned the first piece of metal and stored the resulting attribute. And the second one stored 5 breaths worht of investiture in a piece of metal, and burned that, while storing all of the resulting attribute in a metalmind, they would both end up with the same amount of investiture later.

No. The first would have 14 (1 compounded to 10 + 4 stored) breaths worth at the end while the second would have 50 (5 compounded to 50) per TFE epilogue.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Those are all with the protagonist having more power.

I was unaware that was another criteria.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Did that ever happen?

Leshwi beating Sigzil. Admitted she was equipped with a raysium spear. But he had a shardblade/spear and two surges vs her one surge and the raysium spear. However this is also a supposed more powerful protagonist losing.

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Vasher was probably no more than second heightening at that point, so yeah Kaladin was the more powerful of the two.

Well I’d say Vasher won that fight but again Kal is the protagonist so it will be disregarded as a valid example.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's not just a one fight, or one scene thing, it's the entirety of the book up to that point. We have seen division exactly twice, and I don't think it is even called division. The Skybreakers have never used division on screen, whereas Vin has burned atium.

I’ve been trying to stay out of crossing wires with different people but this feels like moving goalposts again.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

No. The first would have 14 (1 compounded to 10 + 4 stored) breaths worth at the end while the second would have 50 (5 compounded to 50) per TFE epilogue.

Sazed is talking about a theoretical concept that he has never used himself. If compounding was a *10 multiplier than allomancy would have to get stronger the more you stored in a metalmind, as all compounding is is using allomancy to fuel feruchemy.

Spoiler

Questioner

When either Rashek or a Twinborn like Miles, how does he fuel his metalminds? Does he have to actually burn the gold in order to fuel them? Because, I feel like there's a paragraph in here where you kind of explained it, but I feel like you didn't actually say that you had to burn more gold in order to fill a metalmind. Is that how that works?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You can cross the streams and use one to power the other. But you are using the metal to power your Feruchemy instead of your own-- You're using, basically, the power that's coming through the metal...

Questioner

So you do have to be burning one the whole time? Sounds good, good to know. So you could just infinitely fill it, basically? As you burn, you just use it to fill it and it just gets-- and that's where that comes from?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. You are burning a metalmind that you've already filled, right? That's the key there. You fill a metalmind, then you burn that, and what that does is it keys the metalmind to the Feruchemy instead. Which normally no one can do because you could-

Questioner

You can't do both.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But if you can do both, you fill a metalmind, you burn that metalmind. What comes out of it is Feruchemical power instead, and you then are filling the metalmind with more.

So Allomancy is fueled by the power of the Shard. So what you're doing is you're powering your Feruchemy with the power of the Shard, instead of your own body. Using their Investiture instead of yours. Which is very dangerous.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

And since allomancy does not become more powerful it cannot be multiplicative

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I was unaware that was another criteria.

Why would it not be? If there is an inbalance of power someone has to be on the weaker end. The PoV characters are just always either equal or greater in power than their opponents.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Great analysis @therunner I agree that double spiked inquisitor is weaker in term of strength than Lerasium Mistborn. However I will point out that Inquisitors were controlling the armies of Koloss, or at least it looked like that. So it might be that Ruin allowed them to take control over Koloss in order to trick Elend and Vin.

Yes and no - Ruin could have taken over the koloss any time he wanted, but Vin and Elend could still control them without his interference. Inquisitors might have “inherited” control from Ruin or used duralumin/group Allomancy on their own.

A Compounder can also just keep Compounding, if they want to. Initial charge of Investiture doesn’t mean much.

 

But you all are getting rather… aggressive.

[lacrossedeamon]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Sazed is talking about a theoretical concept that he has never used himself. If compounding was a *10 multiplier than allomancy would have to get stronger the more you stored in a metalmind, as all compounding is is using allomancy to fuel feruchemy.

  Hide contents

Questioner

When either Rashek or a Twinborn like Miles, how does he fuel his metalminds? Does he have to actually burn the gold in order to fuel them? Because, I feel like there's a paragraph in here where you kind of explained it, but I feel like you didn't actually say that you had to burn more gold in order to fill a metalmind. Is that how that works?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You can cross the streams and use one to power the other. But you are using the metal to power your Feruchemy instead of your own-- You're using, basically, the power that's coming through the metal...

Questioner

So you do have to be burning one the whole time? Sounds good, good to know. So you could just infinitely fill it, basically? As you burn, you just use it to fill it and it just gets-- and that's where that comes from?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. You are burning a metalmind that you've already filled, right? That's the key there. You fill a metalmind, then you burn that, and what that does is it keys the metalmind to the Feruchemy instead. Which normally no one can do because you could-

Questioner

You can't do both.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But if you can do both, you fill a metalmind, you burn that metalmind. What comes out of it is Feruchemical power instead, and you then are filling the metalmind with more.

So Allomancy is fueled by the power of the Shard. So what you're doing is you're powering your Feruchemy with the power of the Shard, instead of your own body. Using their Investiture instead of yours. Which is very dangerous.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

And since allomancy does not become more powerful it cannot be multiplicative

Wax also repeats the tenfold multiplication and this is after both the Words of Founding was written and Compounders became more common. So I take the statement at face value. Your WOB doesn’t support that it is more or less powerful just states that Feruchemy is now being powered by the Shard. This WOB implies that compounding burn rate is proportional to the amount of investiture stored in the metalmind meaning it would be multiplicative.

Quote

yurisses

If Miles stored a very tiny bit of health into a gold bead and then burned it, what would happen? Would he see goldshadows for a time and then obtain Compounded health when reaching the charged part of the bead? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, no gold shadows, but at a very low rate since only little health was loaded in it? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, but at a standard rate the user would always get when compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd hack the system to deliver health for a short time instead of doing what it was supposed to do, but only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

But I will acknowledge there is no explicit WOB on what the rate actually is.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would it not be? If there is an inbalance of power someone has to be on the weaker end. The PoV characters are just always either equal or greater in power than their opponents.

I did not know we were only taking into account cases where the antagonist is more powerful but lost. I thought it was just the more powerful person lost regardless of role in the novel.

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Was it said that lynch-pin spike doesn't grant any ability?

Per the diagram on Inquisitors and notes from HoA the lynchpin spike does not grant powers, only serves to tie them together.
Spikes in other hemalurgic construct don't necessarily grant powers, so it makes sense.

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

On compounding in Era 1 it's hard to say. Inquisitors were certainly using Feruchemy and were controlled directly by Ruin who knows about compounding.

Per this they were unable to actually do it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e850), even with Ruin possibly pushing them towards it.
But like you said who knows. Thought from what I remember Marsh did not display anything that could not be explained by ordinary Feruchemy or being directly fueled by Ruin.
 

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Great analysis @therunner I agree that double spiked inquisitor is weaker in term of strength than Lerasium Mistborn. However I will point out that Inquisitors were controlling the armies of Koloss, or at least it looked like that. So it might be that Ruin allowed them to take control over Koloss in order to trick Elend and Vin

Thank you

If I remember correctly Inquisitors controlling the Koloss was done under direction of Ruin, as a trap, as he wanted Elend and Vin to take them over and keep them close so he could reassert control (as he does near the end). So I would say that part is not actually suggestive of their 'natural' abilities.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

What with it? Pewter made him just as fast, and heal just as quickly, a-atium is effectively the same thing as f-zinc. Did Marsh even have any other feruchemical abilities?

Again, how many times do I have to repeat this? He had Feruchemy, Elend didn't. Definition of power is "the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way." - Marsh has the ability to use some feruchemical metals and has the capacity to compound that. Therefore he was more powerful that Elend was. 

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

Sazed described it as that at the end of final empire.

Brandon said that metals are basically just aons, so compounding is just a different aon

By the same definition of the word "power", compounding is the ability to burn your own metalmind and get feruchemical attribute from allomancy - this ability is not present in someone who is not a compounder, therefore it's a power. Miles was more powerful in this regard as he had the ability (power) to burn his metalminds, which Wax didn't.

All I'm doing is using the definition of words. 

Elantrian who has learned new Aon gains more power as ability is defined by skill - "possession of the means or skill to do something / talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area."

 

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's not just a one fight, or one scene thing, it's the entirety of the book up to that point. We have seen division exactly twice, and I don't think it is even called division. The Skybreakers have never used division on screen, whereas Vin has burned atium.

Taking the entire books into account, we know Skybreakers are capable of using Division and Honorblades grants unrestricted powers to its wielder. We also know from those books that Heralds are extremely skillful fighters. Narratively Dalinar was facing a more powerful enemy than he was.

 

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

But you all are getting rather… aggressive.

Discussions about semantics can become rather bloody. That's why they are so pointless, as every side is right.

[Frustration he/him]

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Again, how many times do I have to repeat this? He had Feruchemy, Elend didn't. Definition of power is "the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way." - Marsh has the ability to use some feruchemical metals and has the capacity to compound that. Therefore he was more powerful that Elend was.

That's like saying someone who can run 10 mph on their hands is faster than someone who can do it on foot. Marsh might have more ways to do something, but it's the same level of power.

47 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Taking the entire books into account, we know Skybreakers are capable of using Division and Honorblades grants unrestricted powers to its wielder. We also know from those books that Heralds are extremely skillful fighters. Narratively Dalinar was facing a more powerful enemy than he was.

And what do the books tell us division can do? I don't think it's even mentioned aside from Nale saying that Szeth has access to it.

And skill is not power.

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's like saying someone who can run 10 mph on their hands is faster than someone who can do it on foot. Marsh might have more ways to do something, but it's the same level of power.

And what do the books tell us division can do? I don't think it's even mentioned aside from Nale saying that Szeth has access to it.

And skill is not power.

I'm presenting you definition of words by Oxford English dictionary. By those definitions skill is important factor of ability, and ability is defining factor of power, therefore skill is important factor of power. I base my arguments on a world renowned dictionary. Your comparison is plainly wrong and without any logic, based on nothing. It isn't valid. It doesn't matter what Division can do, what matters is that Nale has Division. Like I said before it's pointless to discuss it any further, when you're unwilling to acknowledge the definition of words you are using. 

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm presenting you definition of words by Oxford English dictionary. By those definitions skill is important factor of ability, and ability is defining factor of power, therefore skill is important factor of power. I base my arguments on a world renowned dictionary.

Yeah, a definition from a world where magic doesn't exist.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Your comparison is plainly wrong and without any logic, based on nothing.

You mean aside from what we saw Vin doing at Kredik shaw.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It doesn't matter what Division can do, what matters is that Nale has Division.

So Nale has two surges, so does Dalinar.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Like I said before it's pointless to discuss it any further, when you're unwilling to acknowledge the definition of words you are using. 

Power: Concentration of investiture

Skill: How you use investiture

Edited January 18, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, a definition from a world where magic doesn't exist.

You mean magic that some people have the ability to perform and magic that does something when used? Sounds like it's fitting the definition of power perfectly.

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You mean aside from what we saw Vin doing at Kredik shaw.

Did I miss the chapter when she was walking on her hands at 10 mph? 

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So Nale has two surges, so does Dalinar.

Yes, that's what you've been ignoring this whole time. 

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Power: Concentration of investiture

Skill: How you use investiture

Those are your definitions? You should start this discussion with that, instead of telling that Oxford English dictionary is wrong. By those definitions compounders are more powerful, as they can concentrate large amounts of investiture in their metalminds in form of feruchemical attributes, and this is something that no other people can do. So by YOUR definition Miles was more powerful than Wax, as he had huge concentration of investiture in his metalminds, which Wax didn't have. Then I have to ask you, why did you argue otherwise?

Edited January 18, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Did I miss the chapter when she was walking on her hands at 10 mph? 

That was an example of how at those levels of power having feruchemy compared to allomancy isn't much of a difference.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's what you've been ignoring this whole time.

Dalinar also has powers beyond his surges, such as generating stormlight, or opening perpendicularities.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Those are your definitions? You should start this discussion with that, instead of telling that Oxford English dictionary is wrong.

Well I was planing on this being a simple post where I talk about why I liked a single fight scene, getting maybe three posts total, not a multipage discussion on whether I'm right or not.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

By those definitions compounders are more powerful, as they can concentrate large amounts of investiture in their metalminds in form of feruchemical attributes, and this is something that no other people can do. So by YOUR definition Miles was more powerful than Wax, as he had huge concentration of investiture in his metalminds, which Wax didn't have. Then I have to ask you, why did you argue otherwise?

Because there is no difference in amount of power, only when it is used, compounders just store it up for later use.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That was an example of how at those levels of power having feruchemy compared to allomancy isn't much of a difference.

Which I pointed out was a bad example.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar also has powers beyond his surges, such as generating stormlight, or opening perpendicularities.

Those are parts of his surges. They are not from some external source. He can do it because of his surges.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well I was planing on this being a simple post where I talk about why I liked a single fight scene, getting maybe three posts total, not a multipage discussion on whether I'm right or not.

Yeah, I feel you. I just wanted to point out definition of few words.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because there is no difference in amount of power, only when it is used, compounders just store it up for later use.

Miles was said to be constantly healing. Miles has a concentration of investiture bigger than Wax. With compounding he gains more investiture than he used it as an input.