Death in TotES

[bmcclure7]

12 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Sorry it was actually Raoden and Galladon although I think there might be another bit with Sarene and Omin.

Chapter 7:

 

 Forgot about that part to be fair it's been several years since I read it. I I suppose that then there probably are still elantrian worshippers.  We never meet them But According to the text at least there are at least some. 

[Ashbringer]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Forgot about that part to be fair it's been several years since I read it. I I suppose that then there probably are still elantrian worshippers.  We never meet them But According to the text at least there are at least some. 

We've met a few. One shows up in Oathbringer, and the Ire are also all Elantrians iirc and we've seen them in Secret History.

... plus, you know, Riina.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

We've met a few. One shows up in Oathbringer, and the Ire are also all Elantrians iirc and we've seen them in Secret History.

... plus, you know, Riina.

 Riina never worships an elantrian, very confused.

[Ashbringer]

23 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Riina never worships an elantrian, very confused.

I think Elantrians worship themselves quite a bit...

(Also completely misread worshippers as worldhoppers, sorry my bad )

[bmcclure7]

22 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I think Elantrians worship themselves quite a bit...

(Also completely misread worshippers as worldhoppers, sorry my bad )

 You may have a point there

[lacrossedeamon]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Forgot about that part to be fair it's been several years since I read it. I I suppose that then there probably are still elantrian worshippers.  We never meet them But According to the text at least there are at least some. 

I will admit that Shai’s take on being Elantrian as a holier than thou entity was weird. I would have thought her being so realmatically aware would result in the personality she crafted in the stamp being more grounded. But maybe she did it as a joke given that she is working for Kelsier (assuming it was created after she joined the Ghostbloods).

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I will admit that Shai’s take on being Elantrian as a holier than thou entity was weird. I would have thought her being so realmatically aware would result in the personality she crafted in the stamp being more grounded. But maybe she did it as a joke given that she is working for Kelsier (assuming it was created after she joined the Ghostbloods).

 You thought she was weird? Why? Honestly  She was exactly as I expected the original Elantrian to be.   Benevolent  But with extreme  pride and arrogance,  Utterly convinced of their own deity. I mean that's pretty much how they're always described in book. I don't know why you thought it was weird?

Edited January 24, 2023 by bmcclure7

[lacrossedeamon]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 You thought she was weird? Why? Honestly  She was exactly as I expected the original Elantrian to be.   Benevolent  But with extreme  pride and arrogance,  Utterly convinced of their own deity. I mean that's pretty much how they're always described in book. I don't know why you thought it was weird?

I assume post Reod the Elantrians would be a bit more grounded even if the surrounding people start to worship them again and Shai being cosmere aware would work her understanding into the Essence Mark. Maybe she has less control over the personality than I thought but given how it is described in Emperor’s Soul that doesn’t seem to be the case. However it’s possible the magnanimity is actually helpful for the Ghostbloods since she also loses her memory a bit but it feels more like a drawback.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I assume post Reod the Elantrians would be a bit more grounded even if the surrounding people start to worship them again and Shai being cosmere aware would work her understanding into the Essence Mark. Maybe she has less control over the personality than I thought but given how it is described in Emperor’s Soul that doesn’t seem to be the case. However it’s possible the magnanimity is actually helpful for the Ghostbloods since she also loses her memory a bit but it feels more like a drawback.

Yes but doesn't Shai predate the reod?

[lacrossedeamon]

59 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Yes but doesn't Shai predate the reod?

If she does not by much but any Elantrians she would have met most likely were post Reod.

Quote

Kogiopsis

When is The Emperor's Soul set relative to Elantris specifically and the other cosmere books?

Brandon Sanderson

The Emperor's Soul is set after Elantris but not so far that the characters from Elantris would not still be around.

Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014)

 

[bmcclure7]

3 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

If she does not by much but any Elantrians she would have met most likely were post Reod.

 

 She could be going by accounts. She may never actually meant one in person. And even if she'd had For the mark to work  It would have to change the place Of her birth not the time. So if she was born before the Reod,  Then she probably would only turn into a pre Reod elantrian.  

[lacrossedeamon]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 She could be going by accounts. She may never actually meant one in person. And even if she'd had For the mark to work  It would have to change the place Of her birth not the time. So if she was born before the Reod,  Then she probably would only turn into a pre Reod elantrian.  

Not sure why that would matter. Raoden was born pre Reod. It doesn’t matter when they were born, but when taken if even that matters. Even before the Reod it probably differed person to person, like Galladon’s father doesn’t sound like he would have been so wacky. Shai seems more like a caricature which implies a personal choice, either consciously or not.

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Not sure why that would matter. Raoden was born pre Reod. It doesn’t matter when they were born, but when taken if even that matters. Even before the Reod it probably differed person to person, like Galladon’s father doesn’t sound like he would have been so wacky. Shai seems more like a caricature which implies a personal choice, either consciously or not.

 You don't understand how the magic works. If she  if live she lived pre Reod,  Then she would only become a pre Reod elantrian.   Remember this is not soul casting, It's actually changing her past so that different events happen. 

Galladon's  Was not your typical Elantrian  And if I remember correctly you seem to hate being a Elantrian. 

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 You don't understand how the magic works. If she  if live she lived pre Reod,  Then she would only become a pre Reod elantrian.   Remember this is not soul casting, It's actually changing her past so that different events happen.

It is you who does not understand. The Shaod can come on someone at any point in their life. All Shai has to do it make it so that she didn't experience the Shaod until after the Reod.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It is you who does not understand. The Shaod can come on someone at any point in their life. All Shai has to do it make it so that she didn't experience the Shaod until after the Reod.

She could have already been time elapsing during the Reod making it impossible.  

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

She could have already been time elapsing during the Reod making it impossible.  

....What?

I'm assuming you are referring to using time dilation, which makes no difference as soulstamps change what you did, so no, it very much is possible.

[bmcclure7]

Just now, Frustration said:

....What?

I'm assuming you are referring to using time dilation, which makes no difference as soulstamps change what you did, so no, it very much is possible.

Yes but without time dilation she would be dead so the stape would have to still have her dilate some time. Or using it would be suicide 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

Yes but without time dilation she would be dead so the stape would have to still have her dilate some time. Or using it would be suicide 

Elantrians don't die of old age, and even if she wanted to change into something else, she could just dilate time later in life.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Frustration

[gremlin303]

People who understand this stuff better than me may be able to explain it better, but here are my thoughts:

Based on the note in tLM’s Ars Arcanum, I’d say there is something funny going on with cosmere wide connection/identity with regards to death. Khriss says there could be a magical origin to the phenomenon. I think because of so many people on Scadrial worshipping such a highly invested being, that belief is then transforming the concept of death across the Cosmere. 

[lacrossedeamon]

8 hours ago, gremlin303 said:

People who understand this stuff better than me may be able to explain it better, but here are my thoughts:

Based on the note in tLM’s Ars Arcanum, I’d say there is something funny going on with cosmere wide connection/identity with regards to death. Khriss says there could be a magical origin to the phenomenon. I think because of so many people on Scadrial worshipping such a highly invested being, that belief is then transforming the concept of death across the Cosmere. 

Ooh that could be interesting. I've been wondering if there is a secret Inquisitor worldhopper that's been running around impersonating Marsh.

[+Tekiny]

On 11.2.2023 at 7:05 PM, gremlin303 said:

People who understand this stuff better than me may be able to explain it better, but here are my thoughts:

Based on the note in tLM’s Ars Arcanum, I’d say there is something funny going on with cosmere wide connection/identity with regards to death. Khriss says there could be a magical origin to the phenomenon. I think because of so many people on Scadrial worshipping such a highly invested being, that belief is then transforming the concept of death across the Cosmere. 

That is exactly what I think. The image of Marsh somehow got so much intertwined with the concept/spiritual ideal of Death that people on other planets get influenced by it. I mean, we found out in TLM that Marsh literally is Death sometimes - meaning that he has brought people's souls on their way to the Beyond. Imo, it is pretty believable that this plus his worshipers could have that strong of an effect if you give it enough time.

[Sky Breaker]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:55 PM, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

The thing is, that would be assuming a Scadrian or Scadrians are the audience. I would think the audience is from First of the Sun, considering all the Aviar references. But, most of all, the thing that points to first of the sun is the mention of a story that's probably set on First of the Sun. 

But if the visitors on first are scadrians (but even if they’re not then I’m pretty sure that scadrians have been there before) and who else would it be considering that scadrians are the most advanced most invested people on roshar can’t leave for the time being and nalthian trade caravans travel exclusively through shadesmar not space so and TLM spoilers 

Spoiler

And the scadrians have chouta as well as first of the sun 

And so maybe they just have iron eyes legends

[+Oltux72]

On 25.1.2023 at 5:40 PM, Frustration said:

Elantrians don't die of old age, and even if she wanted to change into something else, she could just dilate time later in life.

But then she has to write a soul stamp for a native of Arelon who dilated and returned to be turned into an Elantrian. And that with an experimental stamp. She had to be in Arelon or very close at the time of her transformation in terms of the stamp's virtual story. If she used anything close to solid engineering her soul stamp just changed her nationality and turned her into an Elantrian at her apparent age.

On 25.1.2023 at 9:04 AM, lacrossedeamon said:

Even before the Reod it probably differed person to person, like Galladon’s father doesn’t sound like he would have been so wacky. Shai seems more like a caricature which implies a personal choice, either consciously or not.

Well, two possibilities

1. Shai is not humble. This simply may be her likeliest personality if she turned Elantrian at a relatively young age. It made the stamp easier to make.
2. How is the plausibility of a stamp judged? Does the judgement of uninformed crowds matter?

On 24.1.2023 at 11:27 PM, lacrossedeamon said:

I assume post Reod the Elantrians would be a bit more grounded even if the surrounding people start to worship them again and Shai being cosmere aware would work her understanding into the Essence Mark.

May I point out that the remade Elantris found itself in serious trouble with the Fjordell Empire? Now, the new leadership may have been intially a lot humbler, but if your children are at risk, you use any advantage you can get.

And secondly, how many Elantrians died in the invasion? That is, were those who had experienced the fallen Elantris actually a majority for long or did the backfill from the losses and returning worldhoppers turn them into a minority?

[Argenti]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:39 AM, Oltux72 said:

he had to be in Arelon or very close at the time of her transformation in terms of the stamp's virtual story. If she used anything close to solid engineering her soul stamp just changed her nationality and turned her into an Elantrian at her apparent age.

So about that... You do know Hoid turned into Elantrian while far away from Arelon

On 3/31/2023 at 4:39 AM, Oltux72 said:

if she turned Elantrian at a relatively young age.

The Shaod can happen whenever?

 

I think Shai is just very pompous.

[+Oltux72]

On 14.4.2023 at 8:09 PM, Argenti said:

So about that... You do know Hoid turned into Elantrian while far away from Arelon

Hoid did it centuries later. After looking at the examples. After millenia of failed attempts. With the knowledge and resources of looking at arcane arts for millenia. With convoluted plans and access to another Elantrian.

On 14.4.2023 at 8:09 PM, Argenti said:

The Shaod can happen whenever?

Yes, but a stamp operates on likelihood. Most people who turn Elantrian do it where they originate from or close by. Simply because most candidates are there.

People are not all that mobile, even less in a preindustrial economy.

On 14.4.2023 at 8:09 PM, Argenti said:

I think Shai is just very pompous.

Let's say that she does not suffer from a deficit of confidence. Nevertheless she does know her invested art and usually does things sanely.

The most plausible way to explain her apparant age is that that is the age she became an Elantrian.