Twinborn VS 4th Ideal Radiant

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

26 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

So, this will be the fourth time I've mentioned this in the last few weeks, with no one commenting.  Almost makes me feel like I'm talking to a wall.

Brandon confirmed, I believe, that if a Pewter Compounder were to store his extra strength granted by burner A-Pewter in a Pewtermind, then the extra strength pulled out of it would not also increase your muscle mass, because you are storing the Allomantic strength, not phsyical strength.  

So you just compound THAT strength, instead of physical strength from your muscle mass.  Then you have a near infinite supply of strength without the added muscle mass.  

I have been in the talking to a wall boat a few times.  No hard feelings there.  

I loved that WoB.  I believe it was worded as more difficult to store strength just from A pewter but it could happen.  

I also believe that that strength would likely be stored differently from regular strength.  Almost like a separate sense for tin.  Once you isolate even a small amount of A pewter enhanced strength you should be able to compound it for sure.  

My personal gripe on compounding pewter is just that I feel like A pewter does soooo much where as F pewter just falls kind of flat in comparison.  I would prefer to see steel / gold / Iron combined with pewter because I just think they offer a good bit more.  

That said if you duel wielding shardhammers and keeping up with A pewters shown speed and agility I would say it is as potent as it gets.  You hit them with so much force that your weapons breaking points are potentially the limits here... would plate survive it?   I think that 100% depends on how healing damage is calculated (a point often handwaived past in these sorts of threads).  

If healing is based on total structural damage or if it is based upon something else it would make a large difference.  If a skull being turned to dust and that dust being mixed with grey matter smoothie and all other muscle and vasculature being mangled bits inside of that require precisely the same amount of time and stormlight to heal as an arrow to the face then I would say you are better off moving 2-3x normal speed and slapping a single hammer against the radiants plate via a pewter/ steel combo than allowing yourself to be at higher risk of getting touched by magic swords playing pewter pewter.  

I don't really think that is how healing works.  I think being blown up would take a significantly higher investiture yield to heal through, and time as well, than simply being cut through the spine. In which case breaking 2 shardhammers over your opponents plate would probably be a pretty dang effective way to lock them up.   

I think F steel serves a dual purpose in this fight as it is going to make you mobile enough to dodge blades and it will allow more snap to your blows via the speed.  Being ultra strong doesn't feel like it is going to offer as much even if your compounded strength doesn't effect your size and mobility (which I totally agree with).  

For what its worth in my brain world of feruchemist with a single allomantic power I am leaning heavily towards pewter due to it working so well to aid in cutting down side effects of storing speed and health plus cutting down on size growth of F pewter.    

Edit:  Pewter storage WoB

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Tglassy]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have been in the talking to a wall boat a few times.  No hard feelings there.  

I loved that WoB.  I believe it was worded as more difficult to store strength just from A pewter but it could happen.  

I also believe that that strength would likely be stored differently from regular strength.  Almost like a separate sense for tin.  Once you isolate even a small amount of A pewter enhanced strength you should be able to compound it for sure.  

My personal gripe on compounding pewter is just that I feel like A pewter does soooo much where as F pewter just falls kind of flat in comparison.  I would prefer to see steel / gold / Iron combined with pewter because I just think they offer a good bit more.  

That said if you duel wielding shardhammers and keeping up with A pewters shown speed and agility I would say it is as potent as it gets.  You hit them with so much force that your weapons breaking points are potentially the limits here... would plate survive it?   I think that 100% depends on how healing damage is calculated (a point often handwaived past in these sorts of threads).  

If healing is based on total structural damage or if it is based upon something else it would make a large difference.  If a skull being turned to dust and that dust being mixed with grey matter smoothie and all other muscle and vasculature being mangled bits inside of that require precisely the same amount of time and stormlight to heal as an arrow to the face then I would say you are better off moving 2-3x normal speed and slapping a single hammer against the radiants plate via a pewter/ steel combo than allowing yourself to be at higher risk of getting touched by magic swords playing pewter pewter.  

I don't really think that is how healing works.  I think being blown up would take a significantly higher investiture yield to heal through, and time as well, than simply being cut through the spine. In which case breaking 2 shardhammers over your opponents plate would probably be a pretty dang effective way to lock them up.   

I think F steel serves a dual purpose in this fight as it is going to make you mobile enough to dodge blades and it will allow more snap to your blows via the speed.  Being ultra strong doesn't feel like it is going to offer as much even if your compounded strength doesn't effect your size and mobility (which I totally agree with).  

For what its worth in my brain world of feruchemist with a single allomantic power I am leaning heavily towards pewter due to it working so well to aid in cutting down side effects of storing speed and health plus cutting down on size growth of F pewter.    

Edit:  Pewter storage WoB

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

 

Thank you for the acknowledgment, and the reference.  I always wanted to ask Brandon "But compounding regurlar strength gives the big muscle mass, while compounding allomantic strength doesn't.  Wouldn't that be a beneficial difference?"  

But here's the thing about that kind of strength.  There isn't anything that can stand against it.  We're talking superman or Goku levels of strength here, and only when he needs it.  He'd need some way to block the Shardblade, sure, but there are lots of options.  a Pewter Rod that is a metalmind.  An Alluminum Rod.  Whatever.  Without that things get exponentially harder.  But give him that, and he only needs one solid hit, same as the radiant.  His weaopn may not be able to pass through living tissue like it wasn't there, but his FIST sure could.  Vin could kill a Koloss with a single kick to the head.  She exploded a guy's head by using duralumin and pewter, and a pewter compounder would have access to those levels of strength at all times.  If a Pewter Compounder was in an arm wrestling match with a 5th lvl Radiant, they'd win every time, they'd just need to tap more strength.  

I've never been one for writing fan fiction, but I have this idea about a Pewter Compounder in Era two that I can't get out of my head. 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Tglassy

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, Tglassy said:

Thank you for the acknowledgment, and the reference.  I always wanted to ask Brandon "But compounding regurlar strength gives the big muscle mass, while compounding allomantic strength doesn't.  Wouldn't that be a beneficial difference?"  

But here's the thing about that kind of strength.  There isn't anything that can stand against it.  We're talking superman or Goku levels of strength here, and only when he needs it.  He'd need some way to block the Shardblade, sure, but there are lots of options.  a Pewter Rod that is a metalmind.  An Alluminum Rod.  Whatever.  Without that things get exponentially harder.  But give him that, and he only needs one solid hit, same as the radiant.  His weaopn may not be able to pass through living tissue like it wasn't there, but his FIST sure could.  Vin could kill a Koloss with a single kick to the head.  She exploded a guy's head by using duralumin and pewter, and a pewter compounder would have access to those levels of strength at all times.  If a Pewter Compounder was in an arm wrestling match with a 5th lvl Radiant, they'd win every time, they'd just need to tap more strength.  

I've never been one for writing fan fiction, but I have this idea about a Pewter Compounder in Era two that I can't get out of my head. 

Pewter compounding is strong.  My only disagreement here is that pewter compounding wouldn't increase your bone density enough to stand up to punching through plate like being a fullborn with healing could do. 

A comparison I like is that kaladin broke his legs on the plate when he cracked it and he had to heal through it.  The pewterarm thug likely wouldn't have broken their legs with a kick like that so long as they were flaring.  But that part of pewter doesn't compound.  Only the strength. 

I do believe that being a compounder in pewter opens up full metalmind armor and weapons that you could walk around in.  They wouldn't be as effective as living plate but again you would have the strength to easily retain all of pewters mobility anyways.  And if they are piercing your body you can burn them and flare them to keep your strength at imba levels the entire time.  If it is allomantic strength it would work even better.  I think I will side with you on this one as you now have functional armor and weaponry vs shards.   

PS.  A pewter compounder would do well with a solid pewter kanabo.  You would be shattering living plate left and right.  And its a thick enough weapon to hopefully hold up.   (Though that would be more a question of pewters usage as a weapon via hardness and such).  

[Tglassy]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Pewter compounding is strong.  My only disagreement here is that pewter compounding wouldn't increase your bone density enough to stand up to punching through plate like being a fullborn with healing could do. 

A comparison I like is that kaladin broke his legs on the plate when he cracked it and he had to heal through it.  The pewterarm thug likely wouldn't have broken their legs with a kick like that so long as they were flaring.  But that part of pewter doesn't compound.  Only the strength. 

I would argue otherwise.  It's not necessarily "muscular strength", but bodily strength, which would include bone strenght. And even if it didn't, the muscles around the bones would prevent them from breaking.  If everything around something is made of iron, it isn't going to break easily.  

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I do believe that being a compounder in pewter opens up full metalmind armor and weapons that you could walk around in.  They wouldn't be as effective as living plate but again you would have the strength to easily retain all of pewters mobility anyways.  And if they are piercing your body you can burn them and flare them to keep your strength at imba levels the entire time.  If it is allomantic strength it would work even better.  I think I will side with you on this one as you now have functional armor and weaponry vs shards.   

PS.  A pewter compounder would do well with a solid pewter kanabo.  You would be shattering living plate left and right.  And its a thick enough weapon to hopefully hold up.   (Though that would be more a question of pewters usage as a weapon via hardness and such).  

Pewter is a fairly soft metal, but it's possible to have a pewter casing around a steel core, or whatever.  

[StanLemon]

So there is one issue with that WoB about storing A-Pewter, it's potentially contradicted by the books. In TFE Rashek is described by Vin as surprisingly muscular and that he 'deflates' just like Sazed did when Sazed stopped tapping Pewter after she Pushes Rashek's Metalminds away. 

This can be reconciled though, when burning Pewter, a Compounder could still be storing muscle mass but because burning Pewter makes every gram of muscle stronger then it would lead to needing to tap less muscle mass to have an equivalent amount of strength 

[Tglassy]

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

So there is one issue with that WoB about storing A-Pewter, it's potentially contradicted by the books. In TFE Rashek is described by Vin as surprisingly muscular and that he 'deflates' just like Sazed did when Sazed stopped tapping Pewter after she Pushes Rashek's Metalminds away. 

This can be reconciled though, when burning Pewter, a Compounder could still be storing muscle mass but because burning Pewter makes every gram of muscle stronger then it would lead to needing to tap less muscle mass to have an equivalent amount of strength 

It could also be that TLR wasn't using his pewterminds in that way.  Or he had a seperate pewtermind meant to give him a great physique.  I mean, if I was a Pewter Compounder, that's what I would do.  Vanity is a thing.  I'd have one metalmind filled with years worth of just strength, and another filled with years worth of muscle mass that I tapped just lightly at all times to make my body the perfect physique at all times.  

Though this does support my theory that his bands weren't just atium, but all the metals and made up all, or most, of his main metalminds, which is why he couldn't just speed over and grab them after they were ripped from him.  

[therunner]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Time and time in Mistborn era 1 we were told of how slow Vin moves without pewter. So at least pewter compounder could be as fast as Radiant, allowing him to dodge the blade - not all the time, but he can do it. He can use F-Pewter just in the very second he strikes, not all the time. Still, no chance of defeating Radiant with plate.

True, however we also see how agile and dexterous someone with Stormlight is, and even deadplate improves speed, agility and reflexes.
So, while pewter improves speed, agility and reflexes, it does not double them or anything like that (as far as description goes, improved strength is the primary benefit and that is ~doubling). Someone in deadplate is already faster and stronger than pewter burner with reflexes about on par, add on top of that Stormlight enhancements 'perfection' and Radiant in Plate is physically superior to A-pewter burner in every single way.
So I would say A-pewter misting trying to dodge 4th Oath Radiant Shardblade is like Vin without Pewter trying to dodge someone burning Pewter.

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Golden teeth! 

But wouldn't those heal? 

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It makes me sad. No black holes then  Can I assume that nicrosil compounder has prepered for fight and has abilities to use Fullborn powers, unchained Bondsmith powers, Divine Breath and Elantrian powers stored in his metalmind and would use it in this duel? jk   What compounding unchained Bondsmith powers would even do?

I think black holes are beyond even Shards, though I cannot find WoBs. But maybe a small black hole could be doable, though it would probably evaporate real fast.
 

Good question, we don't know We actually don't even know what compounding Nicrosil does, and what regular Nicrosil does fully. In medallions it is used to store abilities, but that is apparently limited version, and per WoBs you could store kinetic investiture in them, so e.g. Stormlight etc.

6 hours ago, StanLemon said:

So there is one issue with that WoB about storing A-Pewter, it's potentially contradicted by the books. In TFE Rashek is described by Vin as surprisingly muscular and that he 'deflates' just like Sazed did when Sazed stopped tapping Pewter after she Pushes Rashek's Metalminds away. 

This can be reconciled though, when burning Pewter, a Compounder could still be storing muscle mass but because burning Pewter makes every gram of muscle stronger then it would lead to needing to tap less muscle mass to have an equivalent amount of strength 

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

It could also be that TLR wasn't using his pewterminds in that way.  Or he had a seperate pewtermind meant to give him a great physique.  I mean, if I was a Pewter Compounder, that's what I would do.  Vanity is a thing.  I'd have one metalmind filled with years worth of just strength, and another filled with years worth of muscle mass that I tapped just lightly at all times to make my body the perfect physique at all times.  

Though this does support my theory that his bands weren't just atium, but all the metals and made up all, or most, of his main metalminds, which is why he couldn't just speed over and grab them after they were ripped from him.  

I'd agree with @StanLemon , I would expect A-pewter to make you up to 3x as strong per gram of muscle, and so it helps offset some of the limitation of F-pewter.
Still though, even if Pewter compounder gets 3x as much strength from each additional gram of muscle, it just triples their effective maximum strength (the point at which all the muscle mass renders them immobile).

In WoA when Sazed tapped so much he thought he could not walk or maneuver if he was standing he was able to hurl 11 feet tall Koloss, which would make him strong enough to throw around ~600 kg (being conservative).

If the stored strength was pewter strength then that would equate being able to throw ~2 tons. So that would make compounder at that limit circa 80x as strong as regular person.
That would make them about 4x as strong as Shardplate wearing Radiant, but they would be unable to move.

So it would end up being trade-off, they could get stronger than Shardplate but at cost of mobility and dexterity, which in a fight is deadly. And again, this is not even considering effect of Surges on the fight.

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Edit:  Pewter storage WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

Thanks for that WoB!

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For what its worth in my brain world of feruchemist with a single allomantic power I am leaning heavily towards pewter due to it working so well to aid in cutting down side effects of storing speed and health plus cutting down on size growth of F pewter.    

Full feruchemist with one allomantic power? I agree A-pewter is a good choice in that it synergies so well with Feruchemy, but personally I would go with A-steel (both for compounding and for 'flight')

Edited December 31, 2022 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

So, while pewter improves speed, agility and reflexes, it does not double them or anything like that (as far as description goes, improved strength is the primary benefit and that is ~doubling). Someone in deadplate is already faster and stronger than pewter burner with reflexes about on par, add on top of that Stormlight enhancements 'perfection' and Radiant in Plate is physically superior to A-pewter burner in every single way.
So I would say A-pewter misting trying to dodge 4th Oath Radiant Shardblade is like Vin without Pewter trying to dodge someone burning Pewter.

I would say Vins pewter drag where they say she was running as fast as a galloping horse for hours and hours is a good showing of near doubled speed.  If a galloping horse can hit speeds of 40mph and Usain Bolts top speed was 23mph I would say pewter has the ability to double your speed.

Given that we see Kaladin fight a shardbearer supposedly without stormlight (though I think its possible he already was tapping into that resource at the time) and we have seen Szeth fight full shardbearer with stormlight... and then we saw Dalinar and Adolin be able to last more than a few seconds against Szeth with stormlight I would say that there isn't such an increase of speed in plate.  

Shardplate is, unfortunately, one of the least consistently written parts of the whole cosmere.  A lot of the feats we see pulled off in it also beg the question of if those people pulling them off were on a bit of stormlight without knowing it.  Its hard to math out shardplate as it seems becomes better every book or at least every scene it needs to be better.  

Also given the gravity discrepancy between Scadrial and Roshar any strength feats work out in favor of the person from Scadrial.  Depending on length of stay on whatever planet they are on I already mathed out the differences between a small athlete on Scadrial and a larger athlete on Roshar.  Pewter compounding would certainly break this math far more.  

I agree with the 3x strength thing.  I do think that feruchemical strength does increase your strength beyond what that muscle mass would typically allow you to do.  Again with the examples in this post:

Spoiler

Look at Eddie Hall being 6'3" and Lamar being 5'2".   If numbers like these are the peak of physical performance. The current WR for deadlift is Hafthor and the guy stands right at 6'9" 204kg was only able to lift 1kg more than Eddie hall.  So if you have 2 players at their peak... one from Roshar at 6'9" and the other at 5'2" there starts to become a big difference.   501 is bigger than 305.  Its not bigger than 610 or 915.  Stormlight doesn't double your strength and we don't have anything quantifiable by which to say it does X to strength (nor anything saying it improves strength at all).  All we have people going off of is that szeth dropped Dalinar with a single blow breaking ribs with a punch to the side.  I would say the most notable stormlight + strength we have seen is Rock and the shardbow.  But wait there is this WoB which pretty well dispells the idea that it was the stormlight doing it for him.  

  Reveal hidden contents

According to the coppermind Rock is just shy of 7 feet and he is large to the Alethi.  I'm gonna go on a limb and say by the description Hafthor is as close to Rock as we are gonna get... especially being among the strongest men in the world.  If we had the 132 lb Lamar from the previous example on pewter he would be outperforming Hafthor by 21% already on a normal burn and that increases to 182%, while flaring, of the amount lifted by a man who weighs nearly 450lbs. 

Take those weights and put them into the gravitational hodgepodge and apparent weight it gets even more disgusting. 

(Sorry for switching between KG and LBS so much I will try to keep it consistent for the rest of this).  

Both parties have pulled off their world records on their respective planet with Roshar being roughly 0.7 gravity to Scadrial 1.0 gravity according to coppermind (30% lighter from scadrial to Roshar and 42.86% heavier from roshar to scadrial)

On Roshar we have Hafthor at 6'9" weighing in at 204kg and makes that worlds largest lift of 501kg.  

Take him to Scadrial.  We have Hafthor at 6'9" weighing in at 291.4kg and his muscles adjusted for life on Roshar see the same mass of plates but he can't pick it up.  In fact he has to take plates off to make up for the gravitation differences here.  He can only lift 70% of what that same stack of plates was on his home planet.  350.7kg.  

Lamar the 5'2" 60kg boy wonder picks up 305kg on his native Scadrial.  (Still lower than that of the mountain.)  But on Roshar the maths turn the man into a myth and a legend where he is a 42kg man asking the natives to toss more plates onto his tray and is able to lift an incredible 435.7kg.  

Now you have stormlight not adding actual strength but pewter doubling and, when flared, trippling it... you have this 5'2" man lifting 871.4kg (74% more weight than Hafthor on his own planet) on a normal pewter burn and 1307 (160% more weight than Hafthor) on a flare of pewter.  

Given Brandon has felt it worth noting exactly how much pewter increases strength and given than Brandon has not chosen to give us any indication that stormlight actually increases strength (in fact Kaladin says it himself that it doesn't and stormlight healing and endurance / perfection can explain all other examples in the books) I would have to say that the pewter burner is in fact going to come out on top in strength no matter what planet the fight is on.  The gravitation surge would certainly help in a strength contest as you could negate all physics but the point isn't about gravitation.  It is that pewter is magically enhancing that thing and the strength between a pewter arm and a taller Alethi isn't really a factor.  

These are 2 guys at total opposite ends of the size spectrum and they are obviously in their absolute prime.  That isn't to say either of them is at fighting weight (in fact Hafthor lost nearly 60kg for his fighting weight since then) and the size limitation and difference would actually be smaller than this if you had an average alethi and an average scadrian (is that the term) which would make the difference in strength even more noticeable between the 2 combatants.  

I think Sazed got more strength per gram of muscle mass than a typical 1:1 ratio anyways.  A Pewter strength would increase that further and I believe between the two there would be a very comfortable balance of an athletic body type worth of muscle outputting more strength than what we have from plate alone without the need to grow so large you can't move.  

Again, especially with gravity discrepancies we would see a pewter compounder out perform a plate wearer.   

Full feruchemy with steel would be legit but my order has to be pewter >= chromium = gold >= steel/ iron/ zinc. A Pewter just makes all of your storage feel less bad I think.  

[therunner]

28 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would say Vins pewter drag where they say she was running as fast as a galloping horse for hours and hours is a good showing of near doubled speed.  If a galloping horse can hit speeds of 40mph and Usain Bolts top speed was 23mph I would say pewter has the ability to double your speed.

I think that horses on Scadrial pre-Catecedre were physically worse off than regular horses. I don't have ebooks though so I cannot really check on that.

Even then, average galloping horse has speed in range around ~30-35 mph, 40mph is bred racing horses so not really something occurring on Scadrial in Era 1.
Also peak sprinting speed (which is what A-pewter can help you sustain as you don't tire at all) of Usain Bolt is ~27 mph, so for 'regular' atheltic human peak sprint speed can be considered around ~24 mph.

So, while A-pewter would improve speed, it is not doubling it, at most ~1.3x improvement, and even that is assuming that Scadrial horses are quite fast for their diet and conditions.

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Given that we see Kaladin fight a shardbearer supposedly without stormlight (though I think its possible he already was tapping into that resource at the time) and we have seen Szeth fight full shardbearer with stormlight... and then we saw Dalinar and Adolin be able to last more than a few seconds against Szeth with stormlight I would say that there isn't such an increase of speed in plate.  

Shardplate is, unfortunately, one of the least consistently written parts of the whole cosmere.  A lot of the feats we see pulled off in it also beg the question of if those people pulling them off were on a bit of stormlight without knowing it.  Its hard to math out shardplate as it seems becomes better every book or at least every scene it needs to be better.  

Also given the gravity discrepancy between Scadrial and Roshar any strength feats work out in favor of the person from Scadrial.  Depending on length of stay on whatever planet they are on I already mathed out the differences between a small athlete on Scadrial and a larger athlete on Roshar.  Pewter compounding would certainly break this math far more.  

Oh, definitely there are inconsistencies.
I think when Kaladin fought Helaran he already used Stormlight (if subconciously) and even so, that Shardbearer was fighting Kaladin + 20 other men and killed 16 of them. So not really a duel, and not really applicable example.

Adolin and Dalinar are the best duelist on planet and best warrior, respectively. If anyone could put up a fight it would be them, and even then they lasted seconds as you said.

Pewter compounder could be stronger than Shardplate, that I agree with. However they would not be both stronger and more agile at the same time.
Speed wise I still think Shardplate + Stormlight wins out, even if not by much. But even if it is a bit less, it still means that A-pewter burner is just bridging the gap, and they are not getting the advantage they would have against regular person.

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Full feruchemy with steel would be legit but my order has to be pewter >= chromium = gold >= steel/ iron/ zinc. A Pewter just makes all of your storage feel less bad I think.  

Interesting, why Chromium? For compounding Fortune?

Edited December 31, 2022 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

52 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think that horses on Scadrial pre-Catecedre were physically worse off than regular horses. I don't have ebooks though so I cannot really check on that.

Even then, average galloping horse has speed in range around ~30-35 mph, 40mph is bred racing horses so not really something occurring on Scadrial in Era 1.
Also peak sprinting speed (which is what A-pewter can help you sustain as you don't tire at all) of Usain Bolt is ~27 mph, so for 'regular' atheltic human peak sprint speed can be considered around ~24 mph.

So, while A-pewter would improve speed, it is not doubling it, at most ~1.3x improvement, and even that is assuming that Scadrial horses are quite fast for their diet and conditions.

We would need to go into how long and how fast Vin was running.  How much of that run was a full on sprint and how much of it was trying to conserve but a bit of energy.  I was looking into this for speeds of top athletes in the world and it is a great graph looking at the average top level athletes in their respective sports.  

How Olympic Athletes Run: The Difference Between Speed and Distance - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Vin didnt just run as fast as a galloping horse for a 10-20 second sprint.  She kept that pace for hours and hours and she could have kept it so long as she was being replenished with pewter.  I cant remember if this was her actually sprinting the entire thing or if she was running taking a pace more comparable to a marathoner (like 54% of maximum potential).  

58 minutes ago, therunner said:

Oh, definitely there are inconsistencies.
I think when Kaladin fought Helaran he already used Stormlight (if subconciously) and even so, that Shardbearer was fighting Kaladin + 20 other men and killed 16 of them. So not really a duel, and not really applicable example.

Adolin and Dalinar are the best duelist on planet and best warrior, respectively. If anyone could put up a fight it would be them, and even then they lasted seconds as you said.

Pewter compounder could be stronger than Shardplate, that I agree with. However they would not be both stronger and more agile at the same time.
Speed wise I still think Shardplate + Stormlight wins out, even if not by much. But even if it is a bit less, it still means that A-pewter burner is just bridging the gap, and they are not getting the advantage they would have against regular person.

The way compounding works it is entirely likely that pewter could be stronger while maintaining a small enough physique to stay agile and dexterous.  Again this isnt counting for gravity differences between a native born Rosharan and a person born on Scadrial.  Once put on the same planet the person from Scadrial is going to get more and more for every ounce of strength while the Rosharan in comparison will get less and less.  Even if they were placed on the middle ground planet with 0.85x Scadrial gravity the compounder would far outclass even plate.  

As far as examples from the books we can look at jump height for Dalinar vs Vin.  I am going to steal a couple of posts I have read on the topic between reddit and the shard and I think they give us a good comparison of Allomantic pewter alone (not compounded) vs Shardplate.  This is a bit of a wall of text but great fun to look through for this comparison.  

Spoiler

Vin jumped.

She didn't have metal to Push against, but that didn't seem to matter. She sprang a good seven feet in the air, easily cresting Ham's staff. She flipped as the swing passed beneath her, her fingers brushing the air just above the weapon, her own staff spinning in a one-handed grip.

That's from Vin and Ham sparring early on in Well of Ascension. A seven to eight foot vertical jump sounds about right for a Pewter burner, the absolute best athletes on Earth have 44-48 inch verticals.

Spoiler

I'm trying to get some actual numbers for the characteristics of shardplate from in-book descriptions.  Things like: How much strength does shardplate lend its user, how much impact can shardplate absorb without visible cracking, how much does shardplate weigh, and are there any serious discrepancies between these values for the various suits that have been used onscreen.  I'll try to be as brief and non-technical as possible while still conveying what I think I've found so far, criticisms and suggestions welcome!

I'll try to clearly identify any assumptions and estimates appropriately.  I'm not doing citations right now though.

It's been stated that a large horse can safely carry a full-grown man in shardplate so long as they mount the animal "carefully."  I take this to mean that the weight of the rider, plate, and saddle is close to the maximum weight the horse can carry around for a more-or-less extended period of time without injury, about 20-30% of its body weight.  A horse can weigh up to about 2,000 lbs.  0.3 x 2,000 lbs = 600 lbs of total carrying capacity, which would make the armor weigh at most about 400 lbs, and more likely closer to 250-300 lbs (since horses that large typically aren't suitable for riding).  This is also happens to be just heavy enough that most people would have extreme difficulty moving if the suit were to lose power, which also agrees with in-book references.

I'm going to assume Dalinar weighs 200 lbs, is 2 m tall, his armor weighs 300 lbs, and a parshendi weighs ~250 lbs

Dalinar demonstrates a maximum vertical jump of 8 ft (a tremendous feat even considering the reduced gravity on Roshar).  Neglecting air-resistance and assuming gravity on Roshar is 0.7g (I think there's a WoB on this?), this would require an initial vertical velocity of about 5.7 m/s.  Assuming he crouched down before the jump, resulting in a lowering of his center of gravity (which I'll assume is exactly at his belly-button for simplicity) by about 6 inches (I'm not a professional athlete, but this number seemed reasonable to me) his average force from both legs would come out to about 25,000 Newtons, or approximately 2,300 lbs of force from each leg.

In another scene, Dalinar kicks a parshendi corpse about 20ft.  This is far enough that air resistance starts to matter, however we don't have a great way of accounting for it with the information in the scene, so just know that the force calculated here is a lower-bound.  Without air resistance, assuming he kicks the body at somewhere between a 30 and 45 degree angle, and his foot contacts the body for about 1 foot of distance (anyone who plays soccer can feel free to jump in with a better number here if you have one) he would need to exert a force of about 1,700 lbs (According to my research, this slightly exceeds the amount of force required to dismember a human body so we'll assume parshendi bodies are a little stronger than human's, and/or he hit the corpse in the center of the torso).  What's interesting about this figure is that it suggests that Dalinar could have hit the body much harder, but chose not to (probably instinctively) because doing so would have caused it to explode as his foot passed through it rather than go flying (gross, but neat!).

 

I'm planning to review some more scenes, specifically those between multiple shardbearers and see if I can come up with some more refined and rigorous calculations, but wanted to share what I had so far.  If you think this sort of thing is interesting let me know what you think and I'll try to pick up the pace; challenges to my numbers or your own calculations are also welcome!

 

TLDR;

A person in plate could easily tear a person's limbs off (and dunk like no one's business)

So we have Vin and Dalinar both jumping roughly 8 feet vertically.  While the length of a foot is longer on Roshar Vin is also far shorter than Dalinar.  Again on Scadrial Dalinar would weigh 42.8% more than what he is used to carrying requiring 142.8% of his typical strength to get that same vertical jump vs Vin weighing 30% less on Roshar as well as everything else being so much lighter in her hands.  

Every push of a pewterarms foot on the ground is going to generate more force and thier ability to manuever around the shardbearer even with stormlight is going to be a lot closer.

The compounder wouldnt actually need to reach hulk sizes in order to pull off being that much stronger than the radiant in this case as compounding is pretty imba and the fact that allomantic pewter can be compounded is a lot more whacky than what it initially seems.  

If your compounding gives you 10x the effect of that amount of strength per bit of metal burnt we could be seeing a potential of 20-30x normal human strength before any size growth at all.  Then you add in the increasing muscle mass to boost it even more and an athletic body can usually afford some increase in mass before losing mobility.  Even if you increased your mass by 10% that 10% only stretches the gains from everything else ontop of it.  

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Interesting, why Chromium? For compounding Fortune?

Yeah.  I know we dont have a ton on what fortune is going to be but it is somewhere in the realm of future sight.  I imagine it more as spidey sense.  Reading other works from Brandon and I also figure it might turn out to be a bit like "arriving late" as well in that following your gut is going to be the way to go.  Compounding it saves you the need to store misfortune or bad luck.  I was talking to the nurses earlier this morning about a guy we had come in who was stabbed with an 11 inch chefs knife... how it skated right underneath the diaphragm and CT showed it hit nothing outstanding.  They removed the knife and had him stitched up in less than an hour and he left later that day to go about his business.  I figure an ounce of good fortune is worth its weight in gold and being able to compound that having the luck or slight precognitive advantage of knowing where to stand and when to step would probably make for a truly infuriating menace for anyone to fight.  Just listen to your gut and be where you need to when you need to.  Then with all the added benefits of Feruchemy you could become the apex survivalist and hunter.  Speed, strength, warmth, a way to slow fall, health when you need it, breath when you need it, store extra energy for when you need it, mental speed and extra senses when you need them... all that with potentially infinite spidey sense telling you when to activate and how much to activate and where to stand.  Seems as busted as it can be.  Legit chromium might out do pewter for my compounded power with access to feruchemy.  Even a chromium compounder with access to a single medallion would be spooky.    

[Tglassy]

It's interesting that we're talking about maximum human speed when refering to what Pewter can accomplish, since 99.999% of the population won't be able to go that fast.  The average human athelete can sprint at roughlly 18 miles per hour.  But that's the average human ATHELETE.  That's means someone who has TRAINED to sprint, and to only sprint, for a long, long time.  The average male RUNNING speed is onlly 8 miles per hour.  6.5 miles per hour for females!    

No where, ever, did Vin ever once in the books mention sprint training.  She was an urchin who was lucky to have enough food.  When she ran, it was to find a hiding spot, not to practice sprinting and build up her speed.  She would have been malnurished most of her life.  And yeah, by the time she was pewter dragging like this, she was a fully trained Mistborn, but Sprinting is not something Mistborn train to do.  Their training is flying through the air.  Very little running involved.  They let the Pewter take care of the running.  

This wasn't a top world athelete running at the speed of a galopping horse for twenty hours straight.  This was a tiny girl who was barely out of being an Urchin with little to no cardio training running at the speed of a galloping horse for twenty hours straight.  THAT is what Pewter does.  In fact, I wouldn't even put her average non pewter running speed at 6 miles per hour.  That's a 10 minute mile.  That's amazing.  Lots of people can't break that, and I'll never believe Vin would have been one of them.  

But when she has Pewter, she's as fast as a galopping horse for days at a time.  Even if a galopping horse is only 30 miles per hour on Scadrial, and there's nothing in the books to suggest that's the case, that's still five times faster than someone who can't break a 10 minute mile.  I get sprint speed isn't the same as normal running speed, but sprinting is HARD.  The fastest people in the world can only do it for a few seconds.  Thugs can do it forever.  That's insane.  

So yeah, I'd say their speed is doubled.  Everything about them is at least doubled.  It would be nice if we could get some straight numbers, though.  I wanna see Ham record the weights he can life with and without Pewter, and both flaring and not flaring.  I feel like Sigsel.  I want numbers! 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Tglassy

[NameIess]

Here’s a WoB on A-Pewter benefits:

Quote

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

Also confirms that there’s no muscle mass increase to go along with it.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah it's probably roughly double speed... but double speed *plus greatly increased endurance* so over long distances a pewter drag will cover much more than double the distance (since without pewter someone couldn't run flat out that long).

Otoh pewter dragging is dangerous.

[Tglassy]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah it's probably roughly double speed... but double speed *plus greatly increased endurance* so over long distances a pewter drag will cover much more than double the distance (since without pewter someone couldn't run flat out that long).

Otoh pewter dragging is dangerous.

Yeah, but that's not really the point.  The point is whether it increases speed by double as well as strength, and I believe it really should.  If Usane Bolt got ahold of pewter, I think he would leave Vin in the dust.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

34 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Yeah, but that's not really the point.  The point is whether it increases speed by double as well as strength, and I believe it really should.  If Usane Bolt got ahold of pewter, I think he would leave Vin in the dust.  

I wish we knew if Vin was sprinting for that entire time or if she was pacing herself closer to that of a marathoner.   If she was moving 1.75x the speed of Usain Bolt at a pace that was meant to be some what energy conserving then I am sure she could sprint at least 2x the speed of a normal sprinter and could potentially sprint 3x as fast as a non pewter enhanced being.  

But was her days long run a full out sprint and she was simply able to keep it up due to continuous pewter?   

When burning pewter (or stormlight for that matter) does your body ever allow your heart to get stressed?   

If I hook up a pewter burner and a stormlight burner to an exercise stress test will I hit a limit to their speed before I hit a maximum heartrate?   In this instance I know the radiant won't top out as fast as a pewterarm but would the radiants heart rate even increase past a moderate rate?   

Can pewter or stormlight be pushed physically to the point of ischemia?  Or do the magics work so that they can operate at a true sprint with no cardiovascular side effects until the magics suddenly run out?  

I feel like stormlight will heal any ischemia as it happens so they can sprint 100% effort as long as they have light.  

Pewter doesn't necessarily heal any inschemia so it must just hold it back.  I am trying to remember if the pewter arms ever felt like they were really pushing themselves.  If there are instances where they felt like they were pushed to their max I would assume that in a marathon situation they would likely not be sprinting which would put Vins run at less than maximum speed as she understood she had a lot of ground to cover.  

Again,  I provided the graph of average Olympic level speeds for sprints all the way down to marathoners.  

If Vin was not in a dead sprint flaring pewter the entire time and was running in more of a marathoners fashion we could conclude that a pewter flared sprint would actually outpace not just a galloping horse but potentially outsprint a horse.  

[Tglassy]

On 1/2/2023 at 0:11 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I wish we knew if Vin was sprinting for that entire time or if she was pacing herself closer to that of a marathoner.   If she was moving 1.75x the speed of Usain Bolt at a pace that was meant to be some what energy conserving then I am sure she could sprint at least 2x the speed of a normal sprinter and could potentially sprint 3x as fast as a non pewter enhanced being.  

But was her days long run a full out sprint and she was simply able to keep it up due to continuous pewter?   

When burning pewter (or stormlight for that matter) does your body ever allow your heart to get stressed?   

If I hook up a pewter burner and a stormlight burner to an exercise stress test will I hit a limit to their speed before I hit a maximum heartrate?   In this instance I know the radiant won't top out as fast as a pewterarm but would the radiants heart rate even increase past a moderate rate?   

Can pewter or stormlight be pushed physically to the point of ischemia?  Or do the magics work so that they can operate at a true sprint with no cardiovascular side effects until the magics suddenly run out?  

I feel like stormlight will heal any ischemia as it happens so they can sprint 100% effort as long as they have light.  

Pewter doesn't necessarily heal any inschemia so it must just hold it back.  I am trying to remember if the pewter arms ever felt like they were really pushing themselves.  If there are instances where they felt like they were pushed to their max I would assume that in a marathon situation they would likely not be sprinting which would put Vins run at less than maximum speed as she understood she had a lot of ground to cover.  

Again,  I provided the graph of average Olympic level speeds for sprints all the way down to marathoners.  

If Vin was not in a dead sprint flaring pewter the entire time and was running in more of a marathoners fashion we could conclude that a pewter flared sprint would actually outpace not just a galloping horse but potentially outsprint a horse.  

When Vin and Kel sprinted to the army in the first book, that was an all out sprint, and took, what, 12 hrs?  And that WAS an all out sprint.  They'd only stop to suck down some water and pewter beads.  

Pewter makes you more resiliant, as well as heal faster.  So it would be more difficult for you to actually injure yourself by exertion.  Not necessarily impossible, but difficult.  But thing is, when pewterdragging, if you ever stop burning pewter before your body recovers, you die.  You just die. Your heart gives out from the exertion hitting you all at once.  You gotta keep burning Pewter until it helps you recover.  

Stormlight would probably let you run the same way, though you'd never get to Pewter Speed without Plate.  But yeah, all out sprint never getting tired, as it would heal any fatigue instantly. And a plus side of that is you COULD just up and stop, and you'd be fine, because you are already completely healed.  The exertion isn't stacking up, like it does with Pewter.

However, I believe you'd very quickly exaust your Stormlight.  We've seen an individual with no formal training run for 12 hours straight on Pewter.  We've never seen someone hold Stormlight for that long unless they were flying. And flying doesn't require that kind of exertion.  

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, Tglassy said:

When Vin and Kel sprinted to the army in the first book, that was an all out sprint, and took, what, 12 hrs?  And that WAS an all out sprint.  They'd only stop to suck down some water

I think it was more than 12 hours.

Which makes me wonder how fast they were really going, 15 hours at even 20 mph = 300 miles, if they were going 25 mph 375 miles... how big is the Central Dominance?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think it was more than 12 hours.

Which makes me wonder how fast they were really going, 15 hours at even 20 mph = 300 miles, if they were going 25 mph 375 miles... how big is the Central Dominance?

Running from St George to Salt Lake City would be a 302 mile stretch.   If you entered Utah on I15 and drove the entire distance to the exit of Utah it would be 401 miles.  

401 miles in 12 hours would be 33.4mph and I think that is right about in line with the galloping horse theory.  

The amount of pewter they must have had is insane.  

My question is do Kelsier and Vin both have the same stride?   To think they both were sprinting at their maximum suggests that they both kept pace perfectly and that the upper limit of pewter sprinting is not determined by strength of the allomancer or physicality of the allomancer either.  

I imagine one of them was holding back slightly for the other to keep pace.  Perhaps Vin's allomantic strength was greater than Kelsiers allowing her to make up for a shorter gait?   

Or did the pewter allow her the strength to keep a gait the same as Kelsier.  

 

I would motion that in this example it actually doesn't show how fast a typical pewterarm could run but it shows us how fast the slower of 2 mistborn could run.  

How badly would Elend have destroyed Ham or Kelsier in a foot race?  

 

[Tglassy]

I imagine a fully trained Elend would have dominated pretty much any other Mistborn of the era.  

If I'm not mistaken, Vin struggles to keep up with Kel through the run.  He probably did hold back, at least enough for her to keep up with him.  He was more experienced and she too new, along with being half his size.  

I know the dominances were huge.  Sazed goes across one in a week using up all his stored Speed, but supposedly it would have taken months otherwise.  That's a long way.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

17 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I imagine a fully trained Elend would have dominated pretty much any other Mistborn of the era.  

If I'm not mistaken, Vin struggles to keep up with Kel through the run.  He probably did hold back, at least enough for her to keep up with him.  He was more experienced and she too new, along with being half his size.  

I know the dominances were huge.  Sazed goes across one in a week using up all his stored Speed, but supposedly it would have taken months otherwise.  That's a long way.  

So there are a few things worth considering with this.  

Vin runs as fast as a galloping horse.  Kelsier likely would be slightly faster. 

Lerasium mistborn would be significantly faster than the galloping horse theory.  

I imagine the dominances are huge.  We have nothing to really judge it by other than it is one continent and that Scadrial is the cosmeres base 1.0 unit of measure for planets and is the closest to earth.  I am sure the dominence is closer to the western states in size than the Northeastern or even Midwestern states.  

In all of these vs that involve mistborn we have always assumed (or at least I have) the more average mistborn at 1000 years post first Lerasium mistborn.  If we were to compare a Lerasium mistborn or anyone with a boosted allomantic power for whatever reason we could see drastically different results.  

I am sure a galloping horse is on the lower end of what a pewter sprint could do.  That was a pewter sprint for a 5 foot skaa girl.  If she was struggling to keep up, knowing Kelsier and his drive and instinct it was everything he had in him to slow down enough for her to do it.  

So from Vin we see a 5 foot tall girl run the speed of a horse and do backflips 7+ feet in the air from the ground to vault overtop a taller beefier thug with a staff in Ham.  We see her head get hard enough to explode another man's skull and not be damaged from the impact.  We see her hold on and come back to life through instinctively burning after having been nearly eviscerated by an obsidian axe as well as (duralumin use here I know) survive the crushing weight against her body to shove open the doors to the well of ascension.  

Pewter doesn't heal anywhere near the way stormlight does... and it won't heal through a shardblade injury at all... but pound for pound I think pewter is the single most powerful ability in the cosmere (counting stormlight for its enhancement and healing but no surges).  

And I wouldn't doubt if a pewter burner can outsprint a horse given they are a lerasium mistborn and taller / more athletic baseline.   

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

I agree Kelsier's top speed would likely be higher than Vin's due to stride length (he's a lot taller), but probably not by much since her Allomantic strength is slightly greater.

I think the Final Empire is roughly the size of the contiguous US or a little smaller, but the Central Dominance is only a small part of it. 350 miles from Luthadel at the center to another location in the Dominance would mean its at least 700 miles in diameter (350 miles radius) which puts it significantly larger than Texas and about half the size of Mexico.

[Tglassy]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:45 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Pewter doesn't heal anywhere near the way stormlight does... and it won't heal through a shardblade injury at all... but pound for pound I think pewter is the single most powerful ability in the cosmere (counting stormlight for its enhancement and healing but no surges).  

This is what I've been saying.  In nearly all of the inevitable "which metals would you want" or "Which Twinborn combo would you want" I almost always say Allomantic Pewter.  It just does so freaking much.  Allomantic Steel is a close second, cause flying and manipulating Magnatism is awesome, but I mean...Pewter doesn't just enhance strength, it enhances EVERYTHING.  Vin could run that fast and not trip because her balance and coordination was just as enhanced.  It's said Mistborn tend to perch, and like being up high, because they just don't fear heights and they have the surity that their balance is up for the task.  

And to Compound Pewter...it just gets insane.  Honestly, I think one of the strongest contenders would be a Double Pewter Twinborn with Hemalurgic Spikes granting Feruchemical Healing and speed, and Steelpushing.  No Compounding Speed, but near infinite strength alongside all the other stuff pewter can do, and you can use the Pewter to store the health and speed more than normal.  Sort of like a poor man's compounder.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

This is what I've been saying.  In nearly all of the inevitable "which metals would you want" or "Which Twinborn combo would you want" I almost always say Allomantic Pewter.  It just does so freaking much.  Allomantic Steel is a close second, cause flying and manipulating Magnatism is awesome, but I mean...Pewter doesn't just enhance strength, it enhances EVERYTHING.  Vin could run that fast and not trip because her balance and coordination was just as enhanced.  It's said Mistborn tend to perch, and like being up high, because they just don't fear heights and they have the surity that their balance is up for the task.  

And to Compound Pewter...it just gets insane.  Honestly, I think one of the strongest contenders would be a Double Pewter Twinborn with Hemalurgic Spikes granting Feruchemical Healing and speed, and Steelpushing.  No Compounding Speed, but near infinite strength alongside all the other stuff pewter can do, and you can use the Pewter to store the health and speed more than normal.  Sort of like a poor man's compounder.  

For sure A pewter in combination with a 2 or 3 metal medallion will be a huge threat.  

My personal go to would be steel gold iron.  I would give up pewter compounding for a slow fall option as well as extra speed and healing.