Do you think Harmony is faking it?

[Sir Nil]

Do you think Harmony is faking how impotent he is? For all that Sazed says the two shards he holds oppose each other too much for him to do anything, I have the feeling he is faking it, or hamming up how bad it actually is. The reasons I have is twofold, firstly, the shards of Preservation and Ruin have both been shown in their original holders to be thus far the best shards at both future sight and people manipulating. While the skill may not fully pass over, the potential for both are still there. And the second, for all that it seems like The Lost Metal went down to the wire, everything worked out in Scadrial's favour in the end. They managed to repel an attack from Autonomy, there has been massive strides in technology, from missiles, moving picture, and radio, and in magic due to Autonomy's scientists figuring out how to hemalurgically spike someone without killing them, and maybe even directly from pure investiture, removing the need for sacrifice entirely. This information will eventually make it to Kelsier once the Ghostbloods retrieve Shai, who witnessed the technique and can restore the near burned documents. Other people have also pointed to other choices Sazed made that greatly benefited Scadrial, him not giving Kelsier a full body lead to him pursuing hemalurgy, Kelsier's experiments with investiture eventually led to the Southern Scadrians inventing Unsealed Medallions and flying air ships. And one major thing which I have not seen anyone really mention, is that in BoM, Sazed let 'slip' that moving pictures are possible to the Kandra, who later mention that to the crew, and Marasi, who was able to use this knowledge to recognise the Set's moving film, and eventually realise they were using that to trick Allomancers. 

Someone else on the forum said it first, Sazed might be a secret mastermind. But why doesn't he just directly move instead of acting behind the scenes? 

Well, I have a theory on that, I'm not sure if this has already been raised somewhere, but I think it's because Sazed knows he is unprecedented as Dishardic holder. We've seen worlds with multiple shards, but a single person holding multiple only has Sazed as the example. I think Sazed is faking inaction because he realises that if he proves that a person can stack up on shards to little negative effect, it'll cause mass Discord across the cosmere as shard holders realise they can take another shard, alter their intent, and maybe become even more powerful. Sazed is following the intent of Harmony by keeping peace across the entire cosmere by sending the idea that you should not stack shards, or you'll be rendered impotent as the shards oppose each other. I still think Ruin and Preservation are still opposing each other, but I don't think it is to the extent that Sazed is showing and making everyone assume. And that he may really be indecisive, as Marsh and Kelsier can see, but not for the reason they think. Sazed may be indecisive because he realises that if he acts directly, he can maybe save Scadrial and protect it, but throw the rest of the Cosmere into chaos and Discord, every lie works best if it has a grain of truth in it. The one major example of shardic conflict are in Roshar, but we've also seen the aftermath in Threnody. Ruin and Preservation is a less direct one, because both had been weakened in some way, but even that had been horrible. Civilisation in Roshar was constantly slipping and dropping because of the constant Desolations and shardic conflict before the Era of Solitude. Shardic conflict are just horrible things to go through, and Sazed should know it most of all.

There may also be an element of self preservation, because he currently is the most invested entity in the cosmere, Odium feared him because of what he represented, that of the shards recombining to reform Adonalsium, why can't the other shards do so as well? But one thing we know about the other shards is that they are maddeningly passive, not even acting on Odium who is explicitly out to kill all of them just because he was trapped in Roshar, if Sazed sends the same message, that he can't do anything, then most of the other shards won't see him as a significant threat. Autonomy still attacked, but compared to the rust Honour, Cultivation, and Odium are pulling on Roshar, a single shadow organisation seems rather tame, Autonomy seems to spread herself very thin. The Set was likely a probing attack, with the Red and Gold Men deployed because Autonomy saw the weakness in Sazed and decided to get rid of the civilisation that had technologically become enough of a threat to her, not because of Harmony being dishardic. 

I think Sazed right now is walking a very fine line, he's moving people to help fend off Autonomy, but he cannot directly act or else other shards may see him as a threat and team up to take him out, or try to copy him and cause massive Discord across the cosmere in their wars. Maybe the current shardholders won't, but shards can change hands, sometimes even surprisingly.

I'm not sure how coherent this theory is, or how true it will be, but I like it because it gives Sazed more agency rather than him being controlled by his shards. Him making it an active decision to not act in order to Preserve the lives of people across the entire cosmere has a better ring to it, and fits his title as the Hero of Ages a lot more. As shown by the shadow self, Sazed might actually be on the verge of changing intent to Discord, which might show the internal struggle within him to act, and accept all the consequences of that, or continue to not act and potentially sacrifice himself and his home world. 

[StanLemon]

I don't think he's faking it so much as exaggerated just how bound he his.

Preservation and Ruin are apposed but I feel they shouldn't be as completely inhibiting as Sazed is implying. We already saw with Ruin that a Shard can go against its nature temporarily if that leads to the Intent being fulfilled down the road. I see no reason that Harmony can't Ruin something to Preserve something else and vise versa.

However there are clearly issues with Harmony, there is an imbalance between Ruin and Preservation and Sazed does seem to want to side with Preservation more often which I'm sure is a leading cause of his issues.

[DiePie]

Personally I love the theory that Sazed is a secret mastermind, and everything is going to some grand plan of his that extends through MB era 4 (or something absurd like that). I can't remember the exact rankings (if someone wants to link a previous thread on those, that would be great), but iirc preservation/ruin have some of the best future sight out of all the shards, and now Sazed (who is a well-balanced person managing a roughly balanced intent, so there would be less bias in his readings than those of the other shards) holds both of them.

But the story of him being bound by by the conflicting nature of the power he holds is plausible. So personally, I think the reason Sazed is playing it so close is because he realizes that eventually, he won't be able to act to help them... and so he's got to set Scadrial up to thrive in that environment.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I dont so much think Sazed is faking it as much as I think people underestimate how powerful his "people in the right place at the right time" ability is. I feel Sazed has trouble moving, but his precision is absolutely unmatched when he does manage to move a piece on the board. Autonomy herself says Wax is a "masterpiece", and this masterpiece was crafted with very little to work with. I think the trouble is that no one believed Sazed when he says "I had it convered with the peices I was using". 

Much like Vin and the hero of ages being a plan laid down 1000s of years in advance, I dont think Harmony needs to act so much in the moment as have people ready to react to a threat. Preservation's ability to "get things ready beforehand" is impressive and likely stronger than most other shards. It reminds me a lot of Hoid and his "know where to be but not exactly why he should be there" power. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Returned he/him]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:57 AM, Sir Nil said:

Do you think Harmony is faking how impotent he is?

I don't, largely based on Vin's struggles with Ruin at the end of HoA. The Shards were so perfectly matched that each one could block the other's efforts to touch the world directly, and when Vin attacked the result was mutual annihilation. I feel comfortable drawing a pretty straight line from that to Sazed's contortions to hold both Shards. But I've also been thinking on this question recently: how potent are Shards, generally, in their ability to influence the realms in which the other characters exist? Actions like those taken by Rashek, Vin, and Sazed really don't happen onscreen elsewhere in the Cosmere books.

We know from some things Odium has said that Shards have the raw power and reach to do all kinds of things, but are bound by (as yet) unspecified rules and risks of consequences. Odium felt that he couldn't harm Hoid in RoW, as an example of the former. And Odium was described by the Stormfather as being unwilling to do some things he (presumably) could do because they would leave him vulnerable to attack.

I think that there are good reasons why a Shard may prefer such restrained and indirect action, some that we probably know a bit about now and some which we don't. But it is curious that most Shards we've seen are only a little bit more active, at most, in intervening than Harmony. Certainly they aren't running around smiting individuals or cities. They all seem to be playing the game the way that we might expect Autonomy and Endowment to prefer.

[Nesh he/him]

On 12/12/2022 at 3:57 AM, Sir Nil said:

Do you think Harmony is faking how impotent he is?

Must resist eunuch joke... in all seriousness, no.  We know that the vessels have more and more trouble acting against the Intent of their Shard as time goes on, even the Well pushed Rashek to preserve life within the changes he made rather than fixing his mistakes.  Sazed has two Shards with opposing Intents pulling him in different directions.  So yeah, it's hard for him to act.  Now, he could potentially change this by unbalancing himself, but that's another matter.

[drunkenbotanist]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:57 AM, Sir Nil said:

Do you think Harmony is faking how impotent he is? For all that Sazed says the two shards he holds oppose each other too much for him to do anything, I have the feeling he is faking it, or hamming up how bad it actually is. The reasons I have is twofold, firstly, the shards of Preservation and Ruin have both been shown in their original holders to be thus far the best shards at both future sight and people manipulating. While the skill may not fully pass over, the potential for both are still there. And the second, for all that it seems like The Lost Metal went down to the wire, everything worked out in Scadrial's favour in the end. They managed to repel an attack from Autonomy, there has been massive strides in technology, from missiles, moving picture, and radio, and in magic due to Autonomy's scientists figuring out how to hemalurgically spike someone without killing them, and maybe even directly from pure investiture, removing the need for sacrifice entirely. This information will eventually make it to Kelsier once the Ghostbloods retrieve Shai, who witnessed the technique and can restore the near burned documents. Other people have also pointed to other choices Sazed made that greatly benefited Scadrial, him not giving Kelsier a full body lead to him pursuing hemalurgy, Kelsier's experiments with investiture eventually led to the Southern Scadrians inventing Unsealed Medallions and flying air ships. And one major thing which I have not seen anyone really mention, is that in BoM, Sazed let 'slip' that moving pictures are possible to the Kandra, who later mention that to the crew, and Marasi, who was able to use this knowledge to recognise the Set's moving film, and eventually realise they were using that to trick Allomancers. 

Someone else on the forum said it first, Sazed might be a secret mastermind. But why doesn't he just directly move instead of acting behind the scenes? 

Well, I have a theory on that, I'm not sure if this has already been raised somewhere, but I think it's because Sazed knows he is unprecedented as Dishardic holder. We've seen worlds with multiple shards, but a single person holding multiple only has Sazed as the example. I think Sazed is faking inaction because he realises that if he proves that a person can stack up on shards to little negative effect, it'll cause mass Discord across the cosmere as shard holders realise they can take another shard, alter their intent, and maybe become even more powerful. Sazed is following the intent of Harmony by keeping peace across the entire cosmere by sending the idea that you should not stack shards, or you'll be rendered impotent as the shards oppose each other. I still think Ruin and Preservation are still opposing each other, but I don't think it is to the extent that Sazed is showing and making everyone assume. And that he may really be indecisive, as Marsh and Kelsier can see, but not for the reason they think. Sazed may be indecisive because he realises that if he acts directly, he can maybe save Scadrial and protect it, but throw the rest of the Cosmere into chaos and Discord, every lie works best if it has a grain of truth in it. The one major example of shardic conflict are in Roshar, but we've also seen the aftermath in Threnody. Ruin and Preservation is a less direct one, because both had been weakened in some way, but even that had been horrible. Civilisation in Roshar was constantly slipping and dropping because of the constant Desolations and shardic conflict before the Era of Solitude. Shardic conflict are just horrible things to go through, and Sazed should know it most of all.

There may also be an element of self preservation, because he currently is the most invested entity in the cosmere, Odium feared him because of what he represented, that of the shards recombining to reform Adonalsium, why can't the other shards do so as well? But one thing we know about the other shards is that they are maddeningly passive, not even acting on Odium who is explicitly out to kill all of them just because he was trapped in Roshar, if Sazed sends the same message, that he can't do anything, then most of the other shards won't see him as a significant threat. Autonomy still attacked, but compared to the rust Honour, Cultivation, and Odium are pulling on Roshar, a single shadow organisation seems rather tame, Autonomy seems to spread herself very thin. The Set was likely a probing attack, with the Red and Gold Men deployed because Autonomy saw the weakness in Sazed and decided to get rid of the civilisation that had technologically become enough of a threat to her, not because of Harmony being dishardic. 

I think Sazed right now is walking a very fine line, he's moving people to help fend off Autonomy, but he cannot directly act or else other shards may see him as a threat and team up to take him out, or try to copy him and cause massive Discord across the cosmere in their wars. Maybe the current shardholders won't, but shards can change hands, sometimes even surprisingly.

I'm not sure how coherent this theory is, or how true it will be, but I like it because it gives Sazed more agency rather than him being controlled by his shards. Him making it an active decision to not act in order to Preserve the lives of people across the entire cosmere has a better ring to it, and fits his title as the Hero of Ages a lot more. As shown by the shadow self, Sazed might actually be on the verge of changing intent to Discord, which might show the internal struggle within him to act, and accept all the consequences of that, or continue to not act and potentially sacrifice himself and his home world. 

Following this, could Brandon be pulling a fast one on us and the "Survival" shard be Harmony?

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Following this, could Brandon be pulling a fast one on us and the "Survival" shard be Harmony?

The "survival" shard is Invention.

[offer]

On 14.12.2022 at 6:46 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The "survival" shard is Invention.

When did we found out about that? is that from the new spoiler stream?

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, offer said:

When did we found out about that? is that from the new spoiler stream?

 

The Survival shard just wants to hide and survive,

Spoiler

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

A number of times people have mentioned the survival shard not having a planet, and Brandon has not corrected them, and when someone mentioned them as different shards he said they might not be different

Spoiler

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

DrogaKrolow

What happened with the Shard that just drifts in the space, the one that wants to hide and survive?

Brandon Sanderson

What about that Shard? They want to hide and survive.

DrogaKrolow

Huh, something more?

Brandon Sanderson

I think I will RAFO that for right now.

Footnote: The questioner seems to be conflating two separate Shards in his question. There is the Shard that wants to hide and survive and another that is not on a planet.
DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

Pagerunner

Four clues you've given over the years about unknown Shards: 1) One that wants to hide and survive. 2) One that's not on a planet, but not Ambition 3) One that Hoid would have taken 4) One that would have been used for Rithmatist

I'm not looking for a new clue. I'm wondering if there's any overlap between the clues. Are these four separate Shards? If not, which hints apply to the same Shard?

Also, since clue #3 was from before Ambition was revealed, was Hoid going to take Ambition? He certainly is an ambitious individual.

Brandon Sanderson

I'll tell you this--those aren't necessarily four different shards. But I do have to RAFO which one Hoid might have taken.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)

Invention disappeared after Harmony tried to contact them a second time. They are hiding.

[offer]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The Survival shard just wants to hide and survive,

  Reveal hidden contents

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

A number of times people have mentioned the survival shard not having a planet, and Brandon has not corrected them, and when someone mentioned them as different shards he said they might not be different

  Reveal hidden contents

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

DrogaKrolow

What happened with the Shard that just drifts in the space, the one that wants to hide and survive?

Brandon Sanderson

What about that Shard? They want to hide and survive.

DrogaKrolow

Huh, something more?

Brandon Sanderson

I think I will RAFO that for right now.

Footnote: The questioner seems to be conflating two separate Shards in his question. There is the Shard that wants to hide and survive and another that is not on a planet.
DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

Pagerunner

Four clues you've given over the years about unknown Shards: 1) One that wants to hide and survive. 2) One that's not on a planet, but not Ambition 3) One that Hoid would have taken 4) One that would have been used for Rithmatist

I'm not looking for a new clue. I'm wondering if there's any overlap between the clues. Are these four separate Shards? If not, which hints apply to the same Shard?

Also, since clue #3 was from before Ambition was revealed, was Hoid going to take Ambition? He certainly is an ambitious individual.

Brandon Sanderson

I'll tell you this--those aren't necessarily four different shards. But I do have to RAFO which one Hoid might have taken.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)

Invention disappeared after Harmony tried to contact them a second time. They are hiding.

Ohhh, So it is not confirmed.

It does sounds like a good theory but as it is only based on Harmony unable to locate them it is far from certain.

[drunkenbotanist]

There's also a secret project spoiler for another potential identity of the survival shard

[lacrossedeamon]

3 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

There's also a secret project spoiler for another potential identity of the survival shard

If you are talking about SP3 I'm not sure how what it did constitutes as a desire to survive

[drunkenbotanist]

2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

If you are talking about SP3 I'm not sure how what it did constitutes as a desire to survive

 

"That it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it"

 

Paleo

In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time.

Paleo

Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Paleo

And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close?

Brandon Sanderson

Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13231

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, drunkenbotanist said:

 

"That it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it"

 

Paleo

In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time.

Paleo

Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Paleo

And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close?

Brandon Sanderson

Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13231

 

 

 

 

 

 

But that's not the shard that gets mentioned in SP3

[offer]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

But that's not the shard that gets mentioned in SP3

SP3

Quote

Virtuosity splintered herself. The idea is that it is compatible with deciding not to survive any more.

 

[lacrossedeamon]

Spoiler

Virtuosity is most likely not the "prudence" or "wisdom" shard and realizing that survival is not the most paramount thing does not equate to splintering yourself.

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by lacrossedeamon

[offer]

16 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

 

Please spoiler tag this.

SP3

Quote

I agree it does not the same neceserally.  I claim just that it is possible to be the same shard -"realizing survival is not the best thing" could be a way for Brandon to say something about that shard without giving away that it splinters herself.

 

[Frustration]

SP 3

Spoiler

Guys, Virtuosity cannot be the survival shard as she killed herself. The shard that had an intent close to Wisdom, and the one that wanted to survive were never the same shard.

 

[Blackthorne]

I maybe wouldn't say that he's totally faking it but I do think Harmony knows/plans more than he lets on and that he's more ok with the way things played out than other characters seem to think. None of the shard holders seem very capable of directly acting, in that way all of them are kind of impotent when you consider how much power they hold. However they all seem to be more knowledgeable and have more plans than it appears on the surface. Think of Cultivation on Roshar, who from the perspective of our main characters seems to just be doing nothing the whole time but was scheming and successful in killing the vessel of Odium. I imagine perspective also matters here, shards act on very long time lines. 

 

[trav]

No. I do not think he is faking it. The implications of the shadow following him and the implication of Ruin always having been stronger speaks for itself. Harmony is afraid of his own actions as he notices the influence of Ruin either becoming stronger or that it always was stronger. Meaning that every action, voluntary or not, will lead to more destruction.

Sazed needs a 3rd shard or something else to offset this contradiction in him.