Loophole in the contract

[Letryx13]

 

4 hours ago, Lightweaver2 said:

I agree, it would be anticlimactic, but Sanderson does some very unconventional things sometimes. As for the earlier specifications by Raise and Dalinar, I don’t believe they would carry over if we are going by letter of the law, it’s not in the contract. Once again, I’m assuming that Todium goes by letter of the law, not spirit of the law.

 Odium specifically states the contest would happen on the tenth day of "next" month when proposing the exact time to Dalinar, and Dalinar doesn't state the next month when declaring final terms, just the name of the month.  But even looking at it technically, it would be hard to argue, even for Todium, about stalling for a later year.

[Jn819 she/her]

On 12/6/2022 at 8:41 AM, alder24 said:

There are some great ideas here, especially @slavagh, seams very likely.

I doubt it will be something else than a duel, as Odium told Taravangian during his deal with him, it's binding not by the words, that can be differently interpreted, but by the spirit of it. Dalinar is convinced it will be a fight to death.

I think the loophole was already foreshadowed to us twice - Hoid told Jasnah a story about person who always bets only on win or lose, but he lost to someone who made him draw and second time in a Death Rattle. The contract Dalinar and Odium made, specify what happens in case of Dalinar victory and defeat, but not a single word about a draw - what will happen if both contestants would withdraw or both be killed. When duel ends in draw, the contract no longer apply, and Odium would be freed of it. 

The first ever Death Rattle in whole series foreshadows this, and we all know what Brandon likes to do with this.

"We are his" probably refers to the origin of Humans and their first god, Odium. 1000 days till Everstorm is obvious. But the first part "The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice." is unknown to us. What could this mean? Cold, mountain, stream, ice? Well it gives me impression that it could be about Urithiru, probably related to duel of Champions - "the love of man" - with all that was spoken in this topic, its fits with someone like Dalinar being forced to fight someone he loves - Adolin, Gavilor, or stoping the fight because of love - Adolin vs Kaladin, Dalinar vs Vyre (stoped by Kaladin) etc. I bet this part of the Death Rattle predicts the ending of SA5 and duel of Champions.

 

Unfortunatly I think Dalinar might get killed, hurt or broken. But the reason I think that would be a case is soo many Death Rattles predicting that something bad will happen to Stromfather. He will suffer, maybe become a deadeye, be shattered, or be ripped off from Roshar completely - there are too many  Death Rattles suggesting something like this. Stormlight will be gone, Highstorms will be gone. Only endless weeping and darkness will remain.

And there is that Death Rattle:

This also refers to water raising. I think that whatever Todium will do to Dalinar and Stormfather causing endless weeping, would flood Roshar and unintentionally lead to flooding and destruction of Kharbranth. This will mean breaking of the deal between Odium and Taravangian, hurting him in process, making him unable to act and susceptible to attacks. Todium destroying Kharbranth would be very poetic and fitting. Every time when he was emotional and passionate, he cried easily, "they were his own tears".

 

I think it will be a duel, between two people who are loved by Dalinar, or love eachother (Kaladin/Dalinar vs Adolin, Adolin/Dalinar vs Gavilor, Adolin/Dalinar vs Vyre) and both will agree to withdraw form it, or both will kill eachother. It might also be stoped by Dalinar himself, which would mean breaking the contract, and that would harm both Dalinar and Stormfather as well, stoping Hightstorms and Stormlight, which would begin endless weeping. Drawing the fight beause of love is the loophole for Odium.

A draw/Dalinar refusing to kill Odium's champion is almost definitely what Odium will try to arrange. I'm not sure he'll manage to recruit someone Dalinar would be that reluctant to kill though. In fact, it might turn out like the attempted recruitment of Kaladin in the plot to kill Elhokar; agreement,then recalcitrance foiling the plan. I could see Adolin, for instance, being converted in a fit of passion, but during the actual duel having a change of heart and basically committing suicide. There's an established theme of Taravangian (and Odium) almost recruiting people away from Dalinar and failing: Kaladin (as mentioned before, and kind of mirrored after the duel with Lezian), the council of monarchs right before the battle of Thaylen City, Dalinar himself...

I'm not confident in that interpretation of the Death Rattles. I think they might be a prediction of Odium's victory, but they might be as wrong as Renarin's vision of Dalinar becoming Odium's champion in Thaylen City (especially since they're older prophecies).

Also, just to clarify, you do mean Elhokar's son Gavinor, right? Not old King Gavilar resurrected somehow? You said Gavilor twice, so I'm not sure.

The editor seems a bit iffy when moving between pages, so I'll post this and then read the other four pages on this topic and edit as necessary.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Jn819 said:

I'm not confident in that interpretation of the Death Rattles. I think they might be a prediction of Odium's victory, but they might be as wrong as Renarin's vision of Dalinar becoming Odium's champion in Thaylen City (especially since they're older prophecies).

And yet Kaladin fulfilled another Death Rattle by swearing 4th Ideal at the end of RoW. I don't agree that Death Rattles are wrong. From storytelling reasons that would be just wasteful. Mistborn Spoilers:

Spoiler

Terris' prophecies were not only thousands years old and still accurately predicted Harmony, but also predicted Discord as well. 

On top of that a vision of the future in the moment of the death is different than normally, it allows one to peer further into the Spiritual Realm and see more, as Leras told Kelsier in SH - he experienced that by burning Malatium in the moment of his death.

 

14 hours ago, Jn819 said:

Also, just to clarify, you do mean Elhokar's son Gavinor, right? Not old King Gavilar resurrected somehow? You said Gavilor twice, so I'm not sure.

Yes, Elhokar's son Gavinor. But as I mentioned in another thread, I'm focusing mainly on the consequences of the duel and the loophole used, not on champions.

[Jn819 she/her]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

And yet Kaladin fulfilled another Death Rattle by swearing 4th Ideal at the end of RoW. I don't agree that Death Rattles are wrong. From storytelling reasons that would be just wasteful.

Could you remind me which Rattle foreshadowed Kaladin's Fourth Ideal please?

I did say they "might" be wrong even if that isn't a misinterpretation. And they don't have to all be wrong or all be right; heck, even individual Rattles might be partly wrong or their accuracy could be subject to interpretation.

And it's not wasteful because A: epigraphs are about setting a tone, and it was the proper tone for that section B: it reinforces Renarin's "I can be wrong!" moment from Thaylen City. Sanderson seems to be the Doc Brown kind of free will proponent. Back to the Future part III quote:

Quote

It means your future hasn't been written yet. No one's has. Your future is whatever you make of it, so make it a good one.

Mistborn involved a different Shard's Investiture. Rosharan Death Rattles are the work of the Unmade. That could be a factor, or they could be just as accurate.

Spoiler

Odium might have nothing on Ruin and Preservation. Not only can burning Atium give you ridiculous levels of foresight (especially with Duralumin), Preservation's plan seems to have involved some very accurate guesses.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Jn819
Converting emoji back to B)

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Jn819 said:

Could you remind me which Rattle foreshadowed Kaladin's Fourth Ideal please?

This one:

Quote

“In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving. ”

—Collected on Kakanev 1173, 13 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a city guardsman.^[13]

 

2 hours ago, Jn819 said:

I did say they "might" be wrong even if that isn't a misinterpretation. And they don't have to all be wrong or all be right; heck, even individual Rattles might be partly wrong or their accuracy could be subject to interpretation.

What do you mean? They are very vague, mostly metaphorical, not literal, they're heavily subjected to interpretation. They're either wrong or correct, not in between. Not all Death Rattles predict the future, some are about current events/people, not important, some might refer to the past. That's why Death Rattles are a perfect tool for foreshadowing, they're so vague that they fit multiple different interpretations and you just don't know what they mean.

I find it really pointless to discuss whether Death Rattles still predict the future or they can be wrong. 

[Jn819 she/her]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I find it really pointless to discuss whether Death Rattles still predict the future or they can be wrong. 

Fair. I will say, that Rattle seems like it could also be about Szeth awakening to the awful truth that he was never truly Truthless and could truly have stopped the murders at any time. Truly. lol

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

Fair. I will say, that Rattle seems like it could also be about Szeth awakening to the awful truth that he was never truly Truthless and could truly have stopped the murders at any time. Truly. lol

No, because before 2018 the Death Rattle was still not fulfilled:

Spoiler

Chaos

In the Death Rattle, "In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving," have we seen it on screen?

Brandon Sanderson

Not yet.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

 

[drunkenbotanist]

On 2/8/2023 at 0:38 PM, Returned said:

•  
• The consequences of breaking the contract are not what we've assumed. Being "in someone's power" is not a clearly defined state, though there are obvious assumptions that we've been making so far about what that means here. Another issue, separately or relatedly, is that the presumption that Odium can't break his word has been over-interpreted. He can't break his word without risking consequences from other Shards-- it would leave him vulnerable in some poorly defined way. A strategy to deal with that risk, generally or in this specific case, would change what we've been assuming are inviolable rules.

 

I don't think dalinar or the stormfather are strong enough to defeat a compromised Odium after the shard holder were to break his word. The implication has been that cultivation would kill Rayse. Cultivation doesn't want to kill Taravangian, she just got him there. Todium realized that Cultivation won't take the chance to kill him, so there's no reason he can't break his word. Dalinar realizes the only chance to finish the contest with Odium not participating is to kill himself. Which he decides not to do: "the choice of honor is life"

Edited July 24, 2023 by drunkenbotanist

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:27 PM, drunkenbotanist said:

I don't think dalinar or the stormfather are strong enough to defeat a compromised Odium after the shard holder were to break his word. The implication has been that cultivation would kill Rayse. Cultivation doesn't want to kill Taravangian, she just got him there. Todium realized that Cultivation won't take the chance to kill him, so there's no reason he can't break his word. Dalinar realizes the only chance to finish the contest with Odium not participating is to kill himself. Which he decides not to do: "the choice of honor is life"

I think that view of Cultivation is full of assumption. 

She sees better than Honor. She very much seems like a Shard that would "prune" TOdium if she saw that he wasn't what she foresaw if TOdium were to weaken himself and expose himself as vulnerable to Cultivation. 

If Odium doesn't participate, then I would think that equates to a forfeit and Dalinar's side "wins"

[alder24]

On 24.07.2023 at 2:27 AM, drunkenbotanist said:

I don't think dalinar or the stormfather are strong enough to defeat a compromised Odium after the shard holder were to break his word. The implication has been that cultivation would kill Rayse. Cultivation doesn't want to kill Taravangian, she just got him there. Todium realized that Cultivation won't take the chance to kill him, so there's no reason he can't break his word. Dalinar realizes the only chance to finish the contest with Odium not participating is to kill himself. Which he decides not to do: "the choice of honor is life"

It's not about strength. If Odium were to break his word, he would be in Dalinar's power. This likely means he would have to do whatever Dalinar told him to. And Dalinar would always force him to withdraw from Roshar's affair forever, maybe even take his power from Fused and Voidspren. Odium would be trapped on Braize without any ability to influence Roshar nor other worlds at all. Forever. And there are other consequences:

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Preservation had broken his oath and imprisoned Ruin. After thousands of years Preservation was basically dead, even though Ruin was imprisoned and couldn't attack him directly. For a Shard to break his word is to kill themself. 

RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

 

[Chandlerhimself]

On 7/24/2023 at 9:27 AM, drunkenbotanist said:

I don't think dalinar or the stormfather are strong enough to defeat a compromised Odium after the shard holder were to break his word. The implication has been that cultivation would kill Rayse. Cultivation doesn't want to kill Taravangian, she just got him there. Todium realized that Cultivation won't take the chance to kill him, so there's no reason he can't break his word. Dalinar realizes the only chance to finish the contest with Odium not participating is to kill himself. Which he decides not to do: "the choice of honor is life"

I don't think anyone there needs to actually defeat Odium if he breaks his word. Instead of temporarily weakening him, I'm pretty sure it will cause a lot of permanent damage. Even if Dalinar, the storm father, cultivation, etc don't attack him afterwards, another shard or even something below a shard might be able to defeat him. Todium wants to leave Roshar and control other places, if he is weak others will just stop him immediately. 

 

That said, it might be interesting to see TOdium as a broken god that has to trick people and use cunning instead of divine power to get what he wants. 

[Letryx13]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:03 PM, Chandlerhimself said:

I don't think anyone there needs to actually defeat Odium if he breaks his word. Instead of temporarily weakening him, I'm pretty sure it will cause a lot of permanent damage. Even if Dalinar, the storm father, cultivation, etc don't attack him afterwards, another shard or even something below a shard might be able to defeat him. Todium wants to leave Roshar and control other places, if he is weak others will just stop him immediately. 

I'm not even sure that breaking the shard of Odium is a good idea. He's fully integrated into Roshar at this point.  Who knows what splintering it would do, and Cultivation is probably the only one on Roshar who could do it anyway.  

On 7/28/2023 at 8:03 PM, Chandlerhimself said:

That said, it might be interesting to see TOdium as a broken god that has to trick people and use cunning instead of divine power to get what he wants. 

Isn't that pretty much what Tarravangian had to do for so long? Yeah, he had the power of Karbranth and later Jah Kaved to use to manipulate people, but it was really his image of a frail old man that allowed him to get around people's suspicions.  People thinking of him as harmless is part of how he ended up as king of Jah Kaved in the first place.

On 7/28/2023 at 5:08 AM, alder24 said:

It's not about strength. If Odium were to break his word, he would be in Dalinar's power. This likely means he would have to do whatever Dalinar told him to. And Dalinar would always force him to withdraw from Roshar's affair forever, maybe even take his power from Fused and Voidspren. Odium would be trapped on Braize without any ability to influence Roshar nor other worlds at all. Forever. And there are other consequences:

Exactly.  This is why I think the way to defeat Odium is to find some way to force/trick him into breaking his word either to Dalinar or in the deal Taravangian made with Rayse. Preferably the latter for the poetic justice and irony.  And forcing Todium to seclude himself forever is exactly what Dalinar should do, if that happens.  But I don't think breaking his word alone would kill him.  The way Rayse described it, and I can't think of a reason for him to lie about this detail, if he broke his word, then it would give Cultivation the opportunity to kill him.  Breaking their word probably wounds a shard in some way, but perhaps not fatally.  I know the Mistborn reference you're thinking of, but I still think it was one shard killing another, taking advantage of the self inflicted wound.

 

I actually had an interesting epiphany about this whole thing today.  If Taravangian hadn't killed Rayse, but instead had decided to work with Dalinar, then they'd have Odium locked into defeat with one simple move.  If Taravangian revealed the terms of his deal with Odium to Dalinar, specifically that Odium can't kill anyone born to Karbranth going back three generations, then all Dalinar would have to do is pick a champion from Karbranth, and they win.  Either Odium loses the contest, or he wins the contest by breaking his word and having his champion kill someone from Karbranth.

Since Taravangian now holds the shard of Odium, it's unsure how the agreement between Rayse and Taravangian would work.  Can Taravangian release himself from a deal he convinced the previous Odium to agree to? We don't know.  But, if Rayse were still alive and holding the shard, then Taravangian could have gained control over Odium even if Odium's champion did win, and forced him to retreat to Braize forever.  Which would have been a spectacular plot twist of a way to redeem him, in my opinion.  The deal Taravangian made actually ended up saving humanity after all, but also only because of Dalinar's efforts, and cooperating with everyone else.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm not even sure that breaking the shard of Odium is a good idea. He's fully integrated into Roshar at this point.  Who knows what splintering it would do, and Cultivation is probably the only one on Roshar who could do it anyway.  

Honor got killed and it wasn't that bad. The power is still on Roshar, and most didn't even realize that. But mindless power is very dangerous, it would have to be thoroughly Splintered to small pieces. 

3 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I actually had an interesting epiphany about this whole thing today.  If Taravangian hadn't killed Rayse, but instead had decided to work with Dalinar, then they'd have Odium locked into defeat with one simple move.  If Taravangian revealed the terms of his deal with Odium to Dalinar, specifically that Odium can't kill anyone born to Karbranth going back three generations, then all Dalinar would have to do is pick a champion from Karbranth, and they win.  Either Odium loses the contest, or he wins the contest by breaking his word and having his champion kill someone from Karbranth.

Taravangian couldn't have done this, his deal with Odium specifically forced him to serve Odium. Revealing that and working with Dalinar against Odium would be a betrayal of Odium and it would mean breaking off the deal. OB ch 122:

Quote

“I will take this deal,” Taravangian whispered. “The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people"

But that would be smart, I admit. 

However that's why I think whatever TOdium will do will somehow cause the accidental destruction of Kharbranth, forcing him to withdraw from Roshar. Winning the contest and making Dalinar into Fused, might deadeye Stormfather, thus causing eternal weeping, flooding parts of Roshar - destroying Kharbranth. 

[Letryx13]

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Honor got killed and it wasn't that bad. The power is still on Roshar, and most didn't even realize that. But mindless power is very dangerous, it would have to be thoroughly Splintered to small pieces.  

I've wondered whether or not the splintering of Honor is what caused the people of Roshar to act the way they have.  Constant backstabbing and fighting.  But more importantly, without knowing a "safe" way to splinter the shard, things on Roshar could end up like Threnody. 

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Taravangian couldn't have done this, his deal with Odium specifically forced him to serve Odium. Revealing that and working with Dalinar against Odium would be a betrayal of Odium and it would mean breaking off the deal. OB ch 122:

Only if Odium caught him.  It's like with Hoid. Wit admitted he violated his agreement with Odium when he helped Kaladin in RoW.  But since Odium doesn't know about that violation, he can't act on it.  Unless Odium knew that Taravangian had told Dalinar about the deal, he'd still be stuck.

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But that would be smart, I admit. 

However that's why I think whatever TOdium will do will somehow cause the accidental destruction of Kharbranth, forcing him to withdraw from Roshar. Winning the contest and making Dalinar into Fused, might deadeye Stormfather, thus causing eternal weeping, flooding parts of Roshar - destroying Kharbranth. 

We're halfway on the same page, I think.  One of my current guesses is that Kaladin was actually born in Kharbranth (since Lirin was trained by a Kharbranth surgeon) and will end up as the champion.  Kaladin somehow finds out about Taravangian's terms and intentionally loses the fight, trapping Taravangian.  Since someone from Kharbranth would be killed by Odium's champion, it would be too late for Taravangian to release himself from his own terms, and he's stuck.  

But I agree, something going crazy with Kharbranth itself is another excellent idea.  I'm convinced that the deal Taravangian and Rayse made is the key to taking Odium down for good, and Kharbranth's destruction would be a good option.  I've also wondered whether or not some kind of rebellion in the city would be possible.  Maybe in response to discovering what Taravangian did to the people in his hospitals?  

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I've wondered whether or not the splintering of Honor is what caused the people of Roshar to act the way they have.  Constant backstabbing and fighting.  But more importantly, without knowing a "safe" way to splinter the shard, things on Roshar could end up like Threnody. 

Nah, people are always like this, everywhere (Ashyn...). Threnody was a different situation, there was a direct clash between 3 Shards, which threw chunks of Ambition on the system. If you were to Splinter Odium the way Honor was Splintered, and maybe making smaller pieces, Roshar would be fine. Those pieces would eventually become self-aware and sapient, but if they're small enough, you will be dealing with new Spren or Unmades, rather than new mini-Shards.

14 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Only if Odium caught him.  It's like with Hoid. Wit admitted he violated his agreement with Odium when he helped Kaladin in RoW.  But since Odium doesn't know about that violation, he can't act on it.  Unless Odium knew that Taravangian had told Dalinar about the deal, he'd still be stuck.

The moment Dalinar would place a champion from Kharbranth, Odium would know, which would void Taravangian's deal. 

14 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

We're halfway on the same page, I think.  One of my current guesses is that Kaladin was actually born in Kharbranth (since Lirin was trained by a Kharbranth surgeon) and will end up as the champion.  Kaladin somehow finds out about Taravangian's terms and intentionally loses the fight, trapping Taravangian.  Since someone from Kharbranth would be killed by Odium's champion, it would be too late for Taravangian to release himself from his own terms, and he's stuck.  

That sounds possible. I doubt however Dalinar would win the Contest, I think he must lose it, otherwise Taravangian's Ascension would be pointless. Brandon made the decision to switch Rayse with Taravangian because he knew that after his failure in RoW, he stopped being a fearsome adversary, so he changed him for Taravangian. This would be truly pointless if the very first thing TOdium did was to lose again. That's why I believe that TOdium has to win, draw or force Dalinar out of the Contest somehow for him to remain threatening, and that would backfire later on, forcing him to withdraw. But he has to score a big win. WoB:

Spoiler

Las Aventuras de Erif

How did you decide to turn Taravangian into Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

How did I decide to do that? There are a couple reasons I decided to do that. This was one of the things didn't have to go this way. It is actually a good one I can talk about because I had multiple options here. Even until I was turning in this outline to my team and saying "Alright, it's time to sink or swim, do we like this or not?", I was going back and forth on it. Really until I had written the scenes and given them to my alpha readers and said, "alright, are you guys ready for me to pull the trigger on this?" because there are costs. The major cost is that Odium is a better ancient unknowable evil. Odium was filling the role in the books of Sauron. Ancient thing, very dangerous, very strange, very powerful and whatnot.

[,,,]

That is, the negatives were not that big of negatives. And what are the positives? In Oathbringer, Dalinar did not fall to Odium. That is a huge blow to Odium, Rayse-Odium. The fact that at the end of book three he was defeated in a major way, and in book four he gets defeated again, this time by Kaladin. We have proven that two of our primary viewpoint protagonists of the Stormlight Archive are able to resist and defeat him. My opinion was that by that point in the Stormlight Archive, Odium would no longer, Odium-Rayse would no longer be a threat. You run into this in lots of long running epic fantasy series. I've talked a lot about how when I was designing Stormlight Archive, the things I had read in other long running fantasy series were a big part of why I designed it the way I did. For instance, in the Wheel of Time it was very difficult—even in the ones I was writing—to maintain a sense of threat for the Forsaken when they had just been defeated right and left every book. They do get their licks in now and then, but it's real hard to keep considering Ba'alzamon from the first one to be a threat when boy, Rand just defeats him and defeats him again and defeats him again and then defeats him again. This is a problem for a lot of media. How threatening is Magneto really when he never wins?

[...]

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

Also per Coppermind Lirin trained near Hearthstone, but in his youth traveled to Kharbranth - I doubt that around the time Kal was born, but it's still possible. I like it, it's a very interesting idea. However if we're looking for Kal's unknown connection to the wider world, we have to look at Helsina and her connection to Aesudan. There is something going on there.

Spoiler

lightningrani

Can you tell me anything about Kaladin's maternal grandparents?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that his mother [Hesina]--you're asking a very astute question--gave up more than most people gave up in that city to go be what she became. She's definitely fallen in social standing since her childhood. She took a hit.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

 

14 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

But I agree, something going crazy with Kharbranth itself is another excellent idea.  I'm convinced that the deal Taravangian and Rayse made is the key to taking Odium down for good, and Kharbranth's destruction would be a good option.  I've also wondered whether or not some kind of rebellion in the city would be possible.  Maybe in response to discovering what Taravangian did to the people in his hospitals?  

We agree here, maybe it won't seal Odium for good but at least for 10-15 years, till the SA 6 starts, giving both sides to develop tech, grow in numbers and start a new conflict. I don't think a rebellion in Kharbranth would do it as it has to be Odium who destroys it, not some random people. And there is nobody in rule connected to him anymore, as his family cut ties with him and denounced him.

[Letryx13]

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Nah, people are always like this, everywhere (Ashyn...). Threnody was a different situation, there was a direct clash between 3 Shards, which threw chunks of Ambition on the system. If you were to Splinter Odium the way Honor was Splintered, and maybe making smaller pieces, Roshar would be fine. Those pieces would eventually become self-aware and sapient, but if they're small enough, you will be dealing with new Spren or Unmades, rather than new mini-Shards.

Hard to say.  I don't disagree, because what you said previously about uncontrolled power definitely rings true.  And small enough splinters would be much easier to handle.  But I'm just thinking about what would happen if someone splintered a shard without knowing what they were doing.  True, Threnody was a different situation, but without understanding how to splinter safely, who knows what might happen.

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The moment Dalinar would place a champion from Kharbranth, Odium would know, which would void Taravangian's deal. 

He wouldn't know for certain.  He kept Jah-Anat around even though he suspected her of treachery against him with Shallan in Oathbringer.  But the unmade makes it very clear that if Odium knew for sure what she had done, then he would destroy her.  Yes, she's a useful servant to him, so he wouldn't want to get rid of her unless he had to, but still.  It seems like Rayse couldn't, or wouldn't, do something like that unless he knew for sure.  As long as Dalinar kept his mouth shut about why he'd chosen someone from Kharbranth, Odium would have no way to know for sure that Taravangian betrayed him.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

That sounds possible. I doubt however Dalinar would win the Contest, I think he must lose it, otherwise Taravangian's Ascension would be pointless. Brandon made the decision to switch Rayse with Taravangian because he knew that after his failure in RoW, he stopped being a fearsome adversary, so he changed him for Taravangian. This would be truly pointless if the very first thing TOdium did was to lose again. That's why I believe that TOdium has to win, draw or force Dalinar out of the Contest somehow for him to remain threatening, and that would backfire later on, forcing him to withdraw. But he has to score a big win. WoB:

I've wondered about that too.  And I agree Taravangian needs to score some kind of big in book five, although that doesn't need to be the contest of champions, necessarily.  My other idea, to have Dalinar win the contest and somehow force Odium to be unable to return what he's required to is both more straightforward and nearly impossible to pull off.  But as for what other kind of big win for Taravangian it could be, I have no clue.  

It would fit both our ideas quite nicely if we had a Kharbranth champion, but there's still the issue of how a deal a Shard basically made with themselves works.  That's the linchpin of the Kharbranth champion or Kharbranth destruction theory.  If Taravangian can release his own restrictions, then neither works.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Also per Coppermind Lirin trained near Hearthstone, but in his youth traveled to Kharbranth - I doubt that around the time Kal was born, but it's still possible. I like it, it's a very interesting idea. However if we're looking for Kal's unknown connection to the wider world, we have to look at Helsina and her connection to Aesudan. There is something going on there.

I was not aware of that WoB.  Hmmmm.  I don't know much about Aesudan, but as interesting as it is that Kaladin could have a connection to the throne of Alethkar, I have a hard time seeing him in any sort of noble or royal position.  He didn't even want to be a landowner.  Some would argue that makes him better suited for it, myself included, but still.  I'd like to see where that goes.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

We agree here, maybe it won't seal Odium for good but at least for 10-15 years, till the SA 6 starts, giving both sides to develop tech, grow in numbers and start a new conflict. I don't think a rebellion in Kharbranth would do it as it has to be Odium who destroys it, not some random people. And there is nobody in rule connected to him anymore, as his family cut ties with him and denounced him.

My idea for the rebellion was more of a way to get Odium to lose control.  Making him so angry that he forgets himself and tries to interfere in the city, which he's not allowed to do.  Or just end up destroying it, like you suggested. But I don't think that Odium will be a factor in the second half of Stomrlight Archives.  

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

It would fit both our ideas quite nicely if we had a Kharbranth champion, but there's still the issue of how a deal a Shard basically made with themselves works.  That's the linchpin of the Kharbranth champion or Kharbranth destruction theory.  If Taravangian can release his own restrictions, then neither works.

If he breaks his deal then it's too late to release from it - Odium will be wounded and open to Cultivation's attack, or even Dalinar's attack, Odium would have to retreat, even if there would be nobody that could force his will upon Odium (if Kharbranth gets destroyed or champion form it dies, only Taravangian would be able to force his will on Odium, so that's useless, but Odium will still be wounded).

38 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

My idea for the rebellion was more of a way to get Odium to lose control.  Making him so angry that he forgets himself and tries to interfere in the city, which he's not allowed to do.  Or just end up destroying it, like you suggested. 

That makes sense. Possible.

38 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

But I don't think that Odium will be a factor in the second half of Stomrlight Archives.  

I disagree. The break between SA5 and SA6 is too short for a completely new adversary to appear. Odium will be a major player, but I believe that he and Honor would ultimately merge.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

If he breaks his deal then it's too late to release from it - Odium will be wounded and open to Cultivation's attack, or even Dalinar's attack, Odium would have to retreat, even if there would be nobody that could force his will upon Odium (if Kharbranth gets destroyed or champion form it dies, only Taravangian would be able to force his will on Odium, so that's useless, but Odium will still be wounded).

I agree, that is a possible way around it.  Which is partly why I think it needs to be Kaladin as the champion, since he's someone Taravangian would expect to be the champion, and wouldn't look any further into it.  Then, if Kaladin dies, it's too late, assuming he really was born in Kharbranth. Essentially, Odium needs to break the deal before he realizes he broke it.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I disagree. The break between SA5 and SA6 is too short for a completely new adversary to appear. Odium will be a major player, but I believe that he and Honor would ultimately merge.

I don't know about that.  The first book or two of the second half could be buildup, similar to the first half.  Odium was barely mentioned before Oathbringer.  I realize that likely still wouldn't extend the time for a new foe to appear, but that's not to say some remnants of Odium's forces could be causing problems.  The unmade could still be a major problem, for example.  But there are plenty of other things that could be significant enough conflicts for the plot.  Disputes between human and singer nations, the Vorin church gaining political power,  squabbles between the Radiant orders, and so on.  

Also, Mistborn Spoilers.

Spoiler

We don't know how long Autonomy was building up her forces against Harmony, but she could easily have been preparing to deal with whoever won the conflict on Roshar. Rayse seemed very confident in the power of surge binding, for good reason, and Autonomy likely knows that he'd come for her eventually if he won.  

And I doubt Sanderson would try to end a conflict between Shards the same way twice.  It makes the Shards seem less threatening.  Want to defeat an evil Shard? Just merge them with a benevolent one. 

 

[coolsnow7]

Given the Jasnah excerpt, the place to look for the loophole is the mechanics of this Contest of Champions in Shard terms. Moreover, the foreshadowing has made it pretty explicit that “even if Odium loses, he wins” - in other words, we should be thinking about an Odium loss that frees him from the system via Shard/oath mechanics. One option is for him to lose, then be able to break the deal in such a way that he’s not vulnerable to Cultivation - either because Cultivation is no longer against him, or because of other mechanics yet to be revealed.

Edited September 6, 2023 by coolsnow7

[OdiYum]

I have a question.  TOdium is bound to preserving the people of Kharbranth (sp?) from his apocalypse.  Does this mean he would have to protect them from Cultivation?  What would happen during the contest of champions if Cultivation attacked Kharbranth?  Would TOdium be able to do anything while he is so focused on the battle of champions?  Would that open him up?  Is this all just a big distraction to put the shard in a position to permanently bind it to a system?

[alder24]

8 hours ago, OdiYum said:

I have a question.  TOdium is bound to preserving the people of Kharbranth (sp?) from his apocalypse.  Does this mean he would have to protect them from Cultivation?

I doubt it, Odium promised not to destroy Kharbranth himself, to spare them from the destruction he wants to bring on Roshar - it isn't about protecting it from any harm, but only from the harm done by Odium. OB ch 122:

Quote

“Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you.” [...]
“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”
“Should we write … a contract?”
“Our word is the contract. I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word.

 

8 hours ago, OdiYum said:

What would happen during the contest of champions if Cultivation attacked Kharbranth?

Why would she do that? She had no reason to suspect that Taravangian will be even worse than Rayse. She believes that the problem of Odium was resolved and Taravangian will bear this Shard with Honor. She will probably realize her mistake when Taravangian will use that loophole in the contest.

8 hours ago, OdiYum said:

Would TOdium be able to do anything while he is so focused on the battle of champions?

Shards are omnipresent, they can do multiple things at once in many different places. Their attention is usually focused in one place but they still know what is happening elsewhere and can act anywhere on the planet all at once.

8 hours ago, OdiYum said:

Would that open him up?

No. He needs to destroy Kharbranth, even if as an accident.

8 hours ago, OdiYum said:

Is this all just a big distraction to put the shard in a position to permanently bind it to a system?

Technically Odium is permanently bound to the Rosharan system - without Honors agreement, he can't leave. I don't think you can bind a Shard more than that.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

OK, so the contract says that they have to meet on the top of Urithiru. But do they have to stay there? That is could Odium's champion just teleport away and that's it?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

OK, so the contract says that they have to meet on the top of Urithiru. But do they have to stay there? That is could Odium's champion just teleport away and that's it?

I think that would be against the spirit of the contract and leaving would mean forfeiting the duel. If not that would still achieve nothing as one of them has to kill the other, leaving brings Odium no closer to winning then staying and fighting.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 14.9.2023 at 11:34 PM, alder24 said:

I think that would be against the spirit of the contract and leaving would mean forfeiting the duel.

That is certainly a position to take. Is Taravangian bound to the spirit, though?

On 14.9.2023 at 11:34 PM, alder24 said:

I think that would be against the spirit of the contract and leaving would mean forfeiting the duel. If not that would still achieve nothing as one of them has to kill the other, leaving brings Odium no closer to winning then staying and fighting.

It says to the death. Dalinar is 55 or so. Wait fourty years, generously calculated, and that issue is solved. But you are raising an issue. Does Odium want to win? That would leave him bound to Roshar.

If you want that to cease you have options

• need to make the other side break the contract
• make Dalinar agree to revoke the contract
• make sure the contest becomes impossible
• give the contest an outcome not covered in the contract

For example tell Dalinar that your champion will be a fifty megaton fusion bomb designed to go off as soon as the contest begins, resulting in a draw and combine that with an offer to call the whole thing off.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Oltux72
typos

[Letryx13]

On 9/14/2023 at 3:40 PM, Oltux72 said:

OK, so the contract says that they have to meet on the top of Urithiru. But do they have to stay there? That is could Odium's champion just teleport away and that's it?

Unfortunately, that sounds exactly like the sort of idea that Todium would come up with.  Since there's no real explicit idea of what the contest has to be, it could very well be a hide and seek situation, where one champion runs away to try and and drag out the conflict.  Since it's a contest to the death, it will only end when one of the champions dies.

On 9/16/2023 at 5:27 AM, Oltux72 said:

That is certainly a position to take. Is Taravangian bound to the spirit, though?

I don't think he is.  I think the vessel's perception of the agreements is what actually matters, and Taravangian seems much more letter of the law than Rayse was.  

On 9/14/2023 at 5:34 PM, alder24 said:

I think that would be against the spirit of the contract and leaving would mean forfeiting the duel. If not that would still achieve nothing as one of them has to kill the other, leaving brings Odium no closer to winning then staying and fighting.

It's kind of hard to say.  Odium explicitly stated the contest was to the death, so forfeiting might not actually do anything.  Even if a champion did surrender, which I would think is unlikely, the other champion would probably just kill them anyway.  

On 9/16/2023 at 5:27 AM, Oltux72 said:

It says to the death. Dalinar is 55 or so. Wait fourty years, generously calculated, and that issue is solved. But you are raising an issue. Does Odium want to win? That would leave him bound to Roshar.

Todium is definitely not interested in winning the contest. Even if he wins, he's still stuck on Roshar.  I have no clue what Rayse would have been planning to try and eventually free himself from Roshar, but Taravangian is convinced he can manipulate the situation to free himself from Honor's restrictions.  The only way he'd want to win is if it somehow could be used to release him, which makes no sense, as the terms explicitly state Odium remains bound to the system even if he wins.