lacrossedeamon Posted February 12, 2023 Posted February 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Elder said: Maybe they’re setting up for an Era 3 main character. took a look at some of those WoB’s. Tan had an outside influence that wasn’t Harmony. His whole puppets spiel is kinda ambiguous to me. It could be a complaint inspired by Autonomy, but seems more like a sort of devotion to a higher power combined with fatalism or predestination. He’s seen both the Survivor and Death. Obviously this guy has some insight. Maybe he just got a glimpse of Cosmere awareness and couldn’t handle it. But where did he get the glimpse? Seems like a non-sequitur, but in my ADHD brain it really isn’t, but Ironeyes is kinda in a weird position. It seems like Survivorism and Sliverism both acknowledge him, one with dread one with reverence. Harmony employs him. And Marsh likes to encourage people to do his Brother’s work. Is Marsh sympathetic to the Ghost Bloods? We definitely need to see more of him. They made it a point to continue preserving his life. Tan had an unknown influence but also harmony was partially at fault. I’m not sure just gaining cosmere awareness is something like eldritch knowledge or anything. At least we’ve seen a lot of people become cosmere aware and none of them have particularly been driven mad by it. We really need to see Marsh interacting with Kelsier. He’s kinda been like this elephant in the room once revealed he was still alive. I do think we need a SH2 or something to explore both Kelsier and Marsh post Catacendre til TLM but also Hoid (who I think needs all the way to TFE explanations). But yeah as it is it’s very hard to say where his arc is headed.
Elder Posted February 12, 2023 Posted February 12, 2023 1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said: Tan had an unknown influence but also harmony was partially at fault. I’m not sure just gaining cosmere awareness is something like eldritch knowledge or anything. At least we’ve seen a lot of people become cosmere aware and none of them have particularly been driven mad by it. We really need to see Marsh interacting with Kelsier. He’s kinda been like this elephant in the room once revealed he was still alive. I do think we need a SH2 or something to explore both Kelsier and Marsh post Catacendre til TLM but also Hoid (who I think needs all the way to TFE explanations). But yeah as it is it’s very hard to say where his arc is headed. I think Harmony’s culpability probably only extends to him having Lessie/Pa’alm take a fall so that Wax would go home. Terrible thing to do to Wax.
bmcclure7 Posted February 14, 2023 Posted February 14, 2023 On 2/10/2023 at 5:33 PM, Frustration said: Infinite is not the same as omnipotent. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes they are infinite, but they are infinite in that they renew, they don't have infinite investiture on hand all the time, as we have seen time and time again. Brandon has said that Investiture cannot do things. No, we do not. The Beyond is not even confirmed to exist, and never will be. He never once calls shards omnipotent. Closest thing confirmed perhaps, but he's not even close. Brandon will never confirm the existence of a Capital-G God, but he has confirmed Adonalsium. Therefore Adonalsium is not omnipotent, or a God Reveal hidden contents Questioner After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else. Brandon Sanderson So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those. Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense. This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross. So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9596 Ok so how do you define omnipotent then.
bmcclure7 Posted February 14, 2023 Posted February 14, 2023 On 2/10/2023 at 5:59 PM, alder24 said: I know you are, I'm saying that Shards as a power (investiture) and Vessels can't be separated. Shard without a vessel can't do anything. Shard must have a vessel to act. And because no vessel has an infinite mind, no vessel can access infinite power (investiture) of the Shard, but that power doesn't have any ability on its own, it can't act without a Vessel. That's the definition of the word "power - the ability to do something". So if Shard's investiture can't act without a Vessel, then it's powerless. Again, I know, I'm saying that they can't be Omnipotent. While Shard's power (investiture) is infinite, it isn't all powerful, as on its own it can't do anything. Power is the ability to do something. Investiture of a Shard doesn't act without a Vessel. Investiture of a Shard isn't Omnipotent, as it needs a mind. It is infinite however. Ok how can see that perspective, and it is confusing because well are told they don't have a mind, yet they have will likes and desires so they must have something like a mind even if it is incomplete.
cometaryorbit Posted February 18, 2023 Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) A Shard by itself has "only a vague will", Sazed says in the HoA epigraphs. It has drives or desire (Intent) - but not sapience/intelligence. More like a simple animal's drives - a fish isn't particularly smart, but it still has drives (hunger, fear, etc). Edited February 18, 2023 by cometaryorbit
alder24 Posted February 18, 2023 Posted February 18, 2023 On 14.02.2023 at 2:25 AM, bmcclure7 said: Ok how can see that perspective, and it is confusing because well are told they don't have a mind, yet they have will likes and desires so they must have something like a mind even if it is incomplete. Elantris spoilers Spoiler Even the Dor isn't fully sapient, it has developed some basic sapience during those thousands of years, but we don't know if the Dor's limited mind is even capable of controlling the power in any meaningful way. Regular Shard "mind" is just the preference and desire to be controlled by a Vessel, with strong connection to that Shard. Nothing more. It's just like a basic instinct that every animal has 8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: a fish isn't particularly smart, but it still has drives (hunger, fear, etc). Fun fact, some fish species pass the mirror test, which implies existence of self-awareness, while dogs and cats don't. So fishes aren’t that stupid
bmcclure7 Posted February 19, 2023 Posted February 19, 2023 On 2/18/2023 at 5:48 AM, alder24 said: Elantris spoilers Hide contents Even the Dor isn't fully sapient, it has developed some basic sapience during those thousands of years, but we don't know if the Dor's limited mind is even capable of controlling the power in any meaningful way. Regular Shard "mind" is just the preference and desire to be controlled by a Vessel, with strong connection to that Shard. Nothing more. It's just like a basic instinct that every animal has Fun fact, some fish species pass the mirror test, which implies existence of self-awareness, while dogs and cats don't. So fishes aren’t that stupid 1.odium (shard not vessel) is said to specially like questions. And enjoys it when others ask questions. 2. Animals have minds, simple minds but still minds.
alder24 Posted February 19, 2023 Posted February 19, 2023 29 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 1.odium (shard not vessel) is said to specially like questions. And enjoys it when others ask questions. Because that's Passion, and Rayse wanted to redefine Odium's intent to Passion. It doesn't prove at all that a Shard's non-vessel mind can use the power of the Shard. 32 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: 2. Animals have minds, simple minds but still minds. They have, but they can't do advanced calculus. Just because there is a mind doesn't mean that it can do everything. Try giving a gun to a fish, it won't use it because it doesn't understand it, it's too limited. The same can be told about Shard's non-vessel mind - it can't use its power as far as we know. Vessel is needed, and there is no Vessel with infinite mind. 1
bmcclure7 Posted February 19, 2023 Posted February 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, alder24 said: Because that's Passion, and Rayse wanted to redefine Odium's intent to Passion. It doesn't prove at all that a Shard's non-vessel mind can use the power of the Shard. They have, but they can't do advanced calculus. Just because there is a mind doesn't mean that it can do everything. Try giving a gun to a fish, it won't use it because it doesn't understand it, it's too limited. The same can be told about Shard's non-vessel mind - it can't use its power as far as we know. Vessel is needed, and there is no Vessel with infinite mind. They can't of course, your are right, Brandon is perfect that why they are limited, the omniscience power of God limited to the mind of a mere super human.
alder24 Posted February 19, 2023 Posted February 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: They can't of course, your are right, Brandon is perfect that why they are limited, the omniscience power of God limited to the mind of a mere super human. So if the power can't act on its own, and needs a narrow-minded human for it and still is limited in its actions, it means it was never "omni"
bmcclure7 Posted February 19, 2023 Posted February 19, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: So if the power can't act on its own, and needs a narrow-minded human for it and still is limited in its actions, it means it was never "omni" I don't see how those things are connected in any way.
alder24 Posted February 19, 2023 Posted February 19, 2023 9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: I don't see how those things are connected in any way. I'm speechless. Power, by definition, is the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way. If Shard's infinite investiture (Shard's "power") can't act in any way without a Vessel (with which you agreed), it is by definition powerless. If there is no Vessel that can fully comprehend all investiture of the Shard, it means it cannot achieve omnipotence (all power) and omniscience (all knowledge). And on top of that there is Intent which is an inseparable part of Shard's investiture, and no Shard can act against its Intent, which puts Shard (investiture) even further away from omnipotence. Omnipotence, by definition, is the quality of having unlimited power. If the Shard's Vesselless investiture has any limits it means it isn't omnipotent. If the Shard's Vesselless investiture can't act in a particular way (don't have a power), it means it isn't omnipotent. If the Shard's Vesselless investiture needs a Vessel, an advanced mind, to act in any way, it means it isn't omnipotent. If the Shard's Vessel can't use all of the Shard's investiture at once, it means it isn't omnipotent. This all means, Shard is not omnipotent. Omniscience, by definition, is the state of knowing everything. If there is at least one instance when Shard's Vesselless investiture, or Shard's Vessel, doesn't know even at least one thing - it means Shard is not omniscient. There are multiple instances - Shard's Vesselless investiture offered itself to Hoid after Shattering, if Shard's Vesselless investiture is omniscient it wouldn't do that as it would know Hoid will refuse. Harmony didn't know what kind of metal is Trellium. Odium doesn't know that Harmony can't act because of his intent. This all means Shard is not omniscient 1
bmcclure7 Posted February 20, 2023 Posted February 20, 2023 9 hours ago, alder24 said: I'm speechless. Power, by definition, is the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way. If Shard's infinite investiture (Shard's "power") can't act in any way without a Vessel (with which you agreed), it is by definition powerless. If there is no Vessel that can fully comprehend all investiture of the Shard, it means it cannot achieve omnipotence (all power) and omniscience (all knowledge). And on top of that there is Intent which is an inseparable part of Shard's investiture, and no Shard can act against its Intent, which puts Shard (investiture) even further away from omnipotence. Omnipotence, by definition, is the quality of having unlimited power. If the Shard's Vesselless investiture has any limits it means it isn't omnipotent. If the Shard's Vesselless investiture can't act in a particular way (don't have a power), it means it isn't omnipotent. If the Shard's Vesselless investiture needs a Vessel, an advanced mind, to act in any way, it means it isn't omnipotent. If the Shard's Vessel can't use all of the Shard's investiture at once, it means it isn't omnipotent. This all means, Shard is not omnipotent. Omniscience, by definition, is the state of knowing everything. If there is at least one instance when Shard's Vesselless investiture, or Shard's Vessel, doesn't know even at least one thing - it means Shard is not omniscient. There are multiple instances - Shard's Vesselless investiture offered itself to Hoid after Shattering, if Shard's Vesselless investiture is omniscient it wouldn't do that as it would know Hoid will refuse. Harmony didn't know what kind of metal is Trellium. Odium doesn't know that Harmony can't act because of his intent. This all means Shard is not omniscient OK are you afferring to shards or the vessels? I agree that the vessels are not All knowing. If you have a Gun but cant use it unless told still means you have a gun. You still have omnipotence even of you can only use that power when told.
alder24 Posted February 20, 2023 Posted February 20, 2023 5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: OK are you afferring to shards or the vessels? I agree that the vessels are not All knowing. I'm clearly referring to both Shards (pure investiture/"power" without a Vessel) or a Vessel. In each sentence I'm talking only about Shard's power without a Vessel (Shard's Vesselless investiture), or Shard controlled by a Vessel (Shard's Vessel). I'm giving you examples why Shard's power and Vessel can't be omnipresent and omniscient, using definitions of those words, quoted at the beginning of each paragraph. 5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: If you have a Gun but cant use it unless told still means you have a gun. You still have omnipotence even of you can only use that power when told. No, that's literally against the definition of omnipotence, as this is a limitation. Omnipotence requires no limits. Being able to use your power/gun only when told is a huge limitation therefore it can't be omnipotent. 1
Elder Posted February 20, 2023 Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) A Shard with Vessel is limited by the vessel because the Vessel lacks the mental capacity to fully comprehend what the Shard is capable of. A Shard without vessel is limited because the Shard lacks the mental capacity to accomplish anything worthwhile. If I’m doing the vague infinite impossible math right, a Vessel is a force multiplier, not a force limiter. However you want to define Omnipotence, all of this highlights how limited and dangerous Omnipotence without commensurate Omniscience is. I’d rather have an All-knowing source of knowledge and wisdom to learn from than an All-Powerful wrecking ball that barely knows what it’s doing. Cosmere seems to have a handful of the latter (assuming Endless Power satisfies your requirements for omnipotence). Therefore, I don’t think anyone would be deluded or ignorant if they knowingly rejected the Shards as Gods. Now tying this all back into the original topic, this is actually why Sazed made a better world than Rashek. Sazed knew more. His capacity had already been expanded by his copper minds. I doubt there’s enough copper on Scadrial to truly match a Shard, but he’s the best they’ve got. Therefore, Harmony still being revered as god is still a worthy choice. Survivorism has less to do with Kelsier’s power and more to do with the Religion’s morality. Survivorists acknowledge Harmony’s power, but they like the ideals a morals of the Survivor more (granted, I’m not sure they really have any clue as to Kelsier’s actual morals). This makes sense. In life, Kelsier did far more to inspire people than Sazed did, so his memory has left a stronger impression. That’s not going away. This highlights that people generally follow their god more out of faith in their values than just because of power. The question is: is Thaidakar living up to the legacy of “The Survivor?” I’m not certain. We still don’t know near enough about Sliverism. Rashek was a terrible person, who did an insane amount of ecological and social damage to the world, but somehow the Yomens seem to be good people and have fostered a viable religion. We still need to know more. Edited February 20, 2023 by Elder
NameIess Posted February 20, 2023 Posted February 20, 2023 @bmcclure7, as someone who believes in God, I would never accept the Shards or Adonalsium as gods or God. They have no control over or even knowledge of the afterlife, likely didn't create the universe, and can be killed. Shards in particular are really just people with great power. I wouldn't worship TLR, and I wouldn't worship Shards. 1
bmcclure7 Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) On 2/20/2023 at 4:48 AM, alder24 said: I'm clearly referring to both Shards (pure investiture/"power" without a Vessel) or a Vessel. In each sentence I'm talking only about Shard's power without a Vessel (Shard's Vesselless investiture), or Shard controlled by a Vessel (Shard's Vessel). I'm giving you examples why Shard's power and Vessel can't be omnipresent and omniscient, using definitions of those words, quoted at the beginning of each paragraph. No, that's literally against the definition of omnipotence, as this is a limitation. Omnipotence requires no limits. Being able to use your power/gun only when told is a huge limitation therefore it can't be omnipotent. Wrong, Omipotent dose not mean with out limits or else Yhwh would not be Omnipotent Omnipotent simply means "nothing is to hard for you. " It doesn't mean you can do everything, only that you have the power strength to do anything. So as long as the limitation is not "I don't have enough power " then it doesn't violate Omipotence. Edited February 21, 2023 by bmcclure7
bmcclure7 Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 On 2/20/2023 at 10:35 AM, UnfortunatelyNamed said: @bmcclure7, as someone who believes in God, I would never accept the Shards or Adonalsium as gods or God. They have no control over or even knowledge of the afterlife, likely didn't create the universe, and can be killed. Shards in particular are really just people with great power. I wouldn't worship TLR, and I wouldn't worship Shards. But you stil wouldnt be an atheist, your refusal to worship them doesn't come from disbelief in there exist but it what your knowledge and expectations of God are.
alder24 Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: Wrong, Omipotent dose not mean with out limits or else Yhwh would not be Omnipotent I literally quoted you the definition of omnipotence from Oxford Languages, and you're telling me it's wrong??? By this definition any limitation would mean omnipotence can't be achieved. Shards are limited in their actions by their intent, therefore they are not omnipotent.
Frustration Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: I literally quoted you the definition of omnipotence from Oxford Languages, and you're telling me it's wrong??? By this definition any limitation would mean omnipotence can't be achieved. Shards are limited in their actions by their intent, therefore they are not omnipotent. Shards are limited by more than themselves. Investiture can't reverse time, reach the Beyond, perfectly see the future etc.
alder24 Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 Just now, Frustration said: Shards are limited by more than themselves. Investiture can't reverse time, reach the Beyond, perfectly see the future etc. Yes, yes, that was just a single example, nothing more is needed to prove that. There are more limits for sure. Tbf I don't think reversing time/time travel back in time should be considered a power (ability). It's not possible. It's just fantasy. Period. It shouldn't count for omnipotence.
bmcclure7 Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I literally quoted you the definition of omnipotence from Oxford Languages, and you're telling me it's wrong??? By this definition any limitation would mean omnipotence can't be achieved. Shards are limited in their actions by their intent, therefore they are not omnipotent. So YHWH isn't omnipotent then? He has limits. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Shards are limited by more than themselves. Investiture can't reverse time, reach the Beyond, perfectly see the future etc. Aslo wrong read Rythm of war.
Frustration Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 18 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: Aslo wrong read Rythm of war. Stop repeating this outright wrong claim. I have proven it's uselessness as an argument countless times already.
bmcclure7 Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Frustration said: Stop repeating this outright wrong claim. I have proven it's uselessness as an argument countless times already. It's not wrong Row proves that investigature can access the Beyond. And it proves that it can manipulate time. Edited February 21, 2023 by bmcclure7
Frustration Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said: It's not wrong Row proves that investigature can access the Beyond. Where? 1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said: And it proves that it can manipulate time. Slowing time, and reversing time, are two different things. Gravity can slow time, but it cannot reverse it.
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