Religious consequences[DISCUSS]

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. And those entities are referred to as spren,

Please show me where in this WoB the word "spren" is? Or where it says "Adonalsium, Shards, and Aethers are excluded"

Spoiler

Cuaiir

Request that Brandon write a clue to the nature of the cosmere, specifically Realmatic theory.

Brandon Sanderson

Entities exist on all three realms that are only vaguely shadowed on the other realms.

You have seen entities who exist primarily on the Cognitive Realm + are shadowed on the Physical.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/239/#e10051

 

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Reread it,  Multiple times before the twist At the end of oathbringer  The storm father says that they do not know the reason for the recreants and that the reason they think is wrong but refuses to tell them The true reason. Odium says it's much awesome at least once.

The Stormfather says that the reason was that Humans found out they weren't native to Roshar, not that that was wrong.

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3a.  You can literally do all those things with investigature.

You cannot go back in time, restore someone from the dead once they pass into the beyond, enter alternate dimentions, etc.

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3b.  And even if you couldn't so what, Just because there are things you can't do with that power doesn't mean you don't have unlimited power. The long as the reason you can't do them is not I don't have enough power.

That's not omnipotence.

Omnipotence litterally means "All power" if your power cannot do something, you are not omnipotent.

8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3c.  Brandon pacifically uses the Abrahamic God in that wob, As his example for omniscience

but By  your words that the Abrahamic God is not Omniscient, Since there are plenty of things he can't do.  May I suggest broadening your criteria for omniscience.

Omniscience means "All knowing" so unless you know everything, you are not omniscient.

And no, none of the Shards are anywhere near Abrahamic God like.

He specifically says that they aren't.

[Elder]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  You're the only one rejecting my definition of Omniscience, Not the other way around. 

2. Supremacy  Is a separate issue, The Abrahamic of God is omniscience and  He is sovereign. But that does not make them the same things.  I agree that none of the cosmere shards are sovereign over each other.

3.  I think you need to read the quote.  It clearly says the shard power is infinite so infinity times 2 really doesn't get you anywhere. That's why Doubling shards doesn't make you more powerful. 

 

 

1.  I’m pointing out there’s more to omnipotence then you realize.  I’m also acknowledging your viewpoint and attacking it with its own logic. 

2.  You’re making a mistake in vocabulary.  Omniscience has nothing to do with Supremacy.  Omniscience is synonymous with being All-Knowing.  Supremacy is a part of being all-powerful, aka omnipotent.

3.  Clearly, like anyone debating religion, we’re capable of getting different messages from the same passage.  However, I stand by my interpretation.  It fits better with the context, given Harmony’s struggle with opposing Intents and Odium’s hatred and prejudice against other Shards.

4.  Caught your edit, and you’re missing my point.  Those powers aren’t inherently tied to the intent of the Shards.  If they were, Harmony would have the same troubles with them as he has with everything else.  Evidently, there’s more to the differences between shards than intent.

also worth pointing out, technically, Harmony isn’t infinite times two.  Even now, within him, Ruin is stronger than Preservation, as a significant amount of Preservation is still tied up in the Humans of Scadrial.  I’m no expert in Infinite-based math (I’d truly love to meet someone who was), but I honestly think that there may be something to it.  You’d need that fraction of infinity to keep up its influence in an a population with exponential growth.  The fact that Ruin can be stronger than Preservation shows that somehow, 1xinfinite > .97 infinite, or whatever the ratio may be.  As such, 2xinfinite may still have something on 1xinfinite, and 16xinfinite greater still.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Elder

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Please show me where in this WoB the word "spren" is? Or where it says "Adonalsium, Shards, and Aethers are excluded"

  Reveal hidden contents

Cuaiir

Request that Brandon write a clue to the nature of the cosmere, specifically Realmatic theory.

Brandon Sanderson

Entities exist on all three realms that are only vaguely shadowed on the other realms.

You have seen entities who exist primarily on the Cognitive Realm + are shadowed on the Physical.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/239/#e10051

 

The Stormfather says that the reason was that Humans found out they weren't native to Roshar, not that that was wrong.

You cannot go back in time, restore someone from the dead once they pass into the beyond, enter alternate dimentions, etc.

That's not omnipotence.

Omnipotence litterally means "All power" if your power cannot do something, you are not omnipotent.

Omniscience means "All knowing" so unless you know everything, you are not omniscient.

And no, none of the Shards are anywhere near Abrahamic God like.

He specifically says that they aren't.

1. No that definition of all powerful. All powerful means nothing is to hard for you. Not that you can do anything 

If it did then even the Abrahamic God would not be all powerful. 

2. Investiture bends time we have already seen this. 

3. Lifeless exist so yes they can bring back the dead

4. We don't know if alternative universe exists in the cosmere and if they did we have no reason to believe that investigature could access them.

5. If the shards are not the Abrahamic God then all the more reasons your definition is incorrect.  

If even the Abrahamic God can't be considered omnipotent by your definition then what can?

6. Exactly far before the twist of human origins was reviled the storm father foreshadow it. Glad we agree. 

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Elder said:

1.  I’m pointing out there’s more to omnipotence then you realize.  I’m also acknowledging your viewpoint and attacking it with its own logic. 

2.  You’re making a mistake in vocabulary.  Omniscience has nothing to do with Supremacy.  Omniscience is synonymous with being All-Knowing.  Supremacy is a part of being all-powerful, aka omnipotent.

3.  Clearly, like anyone debating religion, we’re capable of getting different messages from the same passage.  However, I stand by my interpretation.  It fits better with the context, given Harmony’s struggle with opposing Intents and Odium’s hatred and prejudice against other Shards.

4.  Caught your edit, and you’re missing my point.  Those powers aren’t inherently tied to the intent of the Shards.  If they were, Harmony would have the same troubles with them as he has with everything else.  Evidently, there’s more to the differences between shards than intent.

also worth pointing out, technically, Harmony isn’t infinite times two.  Even now, within him, Ruin is stronger than Preservation, as a significant amount of Preservation is still tied up in the Humans of Scadrial.  I’m no expert in Infinite-based math (I’d truly love to meet someone who was), but I honestly think that there may be something to it.  You’d need that fraction of infinity to keep up its influence in an a population with exponential growth.  The fact that Ruin can be stronger than Preservation shows that somehow, 1xinfinite > .97 infinite, or whatever the ratio may be.  As such, 2xinfinite may still have something on 1xinfinite, and 16xinfinite greater still.

1. I strongly disagree the, if the powers weren't connect to intent then harmony would be able to do both. 

2. A dictator is  supreme(with in his domain) he not all powerful clearly this is not the  same thing. 

 

Infinities can be separated by quality.

Considered 1,2,3 to infinity

And 3, 6, 9 to infinity

Edited February 10, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. No that definition of all powerful. All powerful means nothing is to hard for you. Not that you can do anything 

That is litterally what Omnipotent means Omni means all, Potent means power. Which means that if any power exists an omnipotent being possesses it.

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Investiture bends time we have already seen this.

But no matter how much you have you cannot go back in time

Spoiler

Jarett Braden

With a huge interconnected work like the Cosmere, do you ever worry when introducing a new concept in a book? How it may affect past and future novels?

Brandon Sanderson

I do. This is the biggest challenge of having a large, interconnected universe like this. And the farther you write, the more difficult and dangerous this becomes. And this is why I need to have a large team, and some really solid beta readers. Because every writer, when writing a book, can get a little myopically focused on that book only. Which can be a good thing; most writers, it doesn't matter, because that book is going to be that book. But because the interconnectedness and the continuity of the Cosmere is so important to me, it's really handy to have a lot of people looking over my shoulder saying, "Are you sure you want to do that? Because it has this ramification here." We're not gonna catch all of them. But I do like that protection, and it is something that I think about quite a bit.

It is one of the reasons why I tried to build the underpinnings of the cosmere to be adaptable to a lot of different of the types of magic systems I type to write. This is why these fundamentals of Fortune and Identity and Connection are really what kind of drive creating the magic systems. You're often going to see me wanting to create magic systems that do similar things. And having these sort of magic system underpinnings that both drive me to ask "what new could I do with this?" but also have an intended connectivity between them is really helpful in a lot of different ways.

But it is dangerous, yes. And if I were going to give advice on that, it would be that make sure your fundamentals 1) naturally fit the type of systems that you would want to build, and 2) have enough versatility that they can be adapted to a variety of different styles of system. And stay away from some of the big problems, like time travel. Very early on, I'm like, "Cosmere can time travel into the future. You can speed things up for yourself, you can slow things down, your movement through space. But you cannot go backward." And having a few rules like that... there are not alternate dimensions in the cosmere. There are different planes of existence. But there are not alternate realities. We are not going to have the sort of things. (That I played with in Steelheart, because I knew I didn't have it in the cosmere. The Wheel of Time loves to play with alternate continuities as one of its themes of magic, and I love it. But it was built in and baked in from the beginning and used very well well. I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole.)

Make a few rules like that, and I think that's helpful from writing yourself out of problems with solutions that break everything. And let's just say that it is very hard to not do that, as evidenced by many film series which have a lot of different people working on them who can make their films work, but often will break the rest of the continuity in order to do so. And we can't afford to do that in the Cosmere. That's not something that I want to do.

YouTube Livestream 7 (May 7, 2020)

 

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Lifeless exist so yes they can bring back the dead

Lifeless are not the same person, they are artifical souls

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. We don't know if alternative universe exists in the cosmere and if they did we have no reason to believe that investigature could access them.

We do know that they eiter do not exist or cannot be accessed

Spoiler

Jarett Braden

With a huge interconnected work like the Cosmere, do you ever worry when introducing a new concept in a book? How it may affect past and future novels?

Brandon Sanderson

I do. This is the biggest challenge of having a large, interconnected universe like this. And the farther you write, the more difficult and dangerous this becomes. And this is why I need to have a large team, and some really solid beta readers. Because every writer, when writing a book, can get a little myopically focused on that book only. Which can be a good thing; most writers, it doesn't matter, because that book is going to be that book. But because the interconnectedness and the continuity of the Cosmere is so important to me, it's really handy to have a lot of people looking over my shoulder saying, "Are you sure you want to do that? Because it has this ramification here." We're not gonna catch all of them. But I do like that protection, and it is something that I think about quite a bit.

It is one of the reasons why I tried to build the underpinnings of the cosmere to be adaptable to a lot of different of the types of magic systems I type to write. This is why these fundamentals of Fortune and Identity and Connection are really what kind of drive creating the magic systems. You're often going to see me wanting to create magic systems that do similar things. And having these sort of magic system underpinnings that both drive me to ask "what new could I do with this?" but also have an intended connectivity between them is really helpful in a lot of different ways.

But it is dangerous, yes. And if I were going to give advice on that, it would be that make sure your fundamentals 1) naturally fit the type of systems that you would want to build, and 2) have enough versatility that they can be adapted to a variety of different styles of system. And stay away from some of the big problems, like time travel. Very early on, I'm like, "Cosmere can time travel into the future. You can speed things up for yourself, you can slow things down, your movement through space. But you cannot go backward." And having a few rules like that... there are not alternate dimensions in the cosmere. There are different planes of existence. But there are not alternate realities. We are not going to have the sort of things. (That I played with in Steelheart, because I knew I didn't have it in the cosmere. The Wheel of Time loves to play with alternate continuities as one of its themes of magic, and I love it. But it was built in and baked in from the beginning and used very well well. I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole.)

Make a few rules like that, and I think that's helpful from writing yourself out of problems with solutions that break everything. And let's just say that it is very hard to not do that, as evidenced by many film series which have a lot of different people working on them who can make their films work, but often will break the rest of the continuity in order to do so. And we can't afford to do that in the Cosmere. That's not something that I want to do.

YouTube Livestream 7 (May 7, 2020)

 

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

6. Exactly far before the twist of human origins was reviled the storm father foreshadow it. Glad we agree. 

Did you misunderstand me or are you intentionally being disengenuous?

Maya's reveal in RoW that the spren chose the recreance was not at all what the Stormfather was refering to

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

If it did then even the Abrahamic God would not be all powerful.   

If even the Abrahamic God can't be considered omnipotent by your definition then what can?

God is omnipotent

 

And stop double posting, it's against the rules.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Frustration

[Elder]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. I strongly disagree the, if the powers weren't connect to intent then harmony would be able to do both. 

2. A dictator is  supreme(with in his domain) he not all powerful clearly this is not the  same thing. 

 

Infinities can be separated by quality.

Considered 1,2,3 to infinity

And 3, 6, 9 to infinity

Harmony can do both.  That’s my point.  He has a power that each of his shards were missing, but they don’t interfere with him using them.  Preservation’s intent doesn’t stop Harmony from whispering in people’s minds, and Ruin’s intent doesn’t keep him from picking up their thoughts.  In this case, the intent never stopped the separate shards.  They just never had those abilities to begin with.

Omnipotence means that it’s ALL your domain.  Nothing outside.  The fact that a dictator doesn’t have power outside their domain is what makes them not omnipotent.  Having to contend with rivals encroaching on your domain is a slap in the face to any claim of supremacy.  Omnipotence is power over ALL things.  Some of the Shards don’t even have that kind of mastery over one world, let alone everything.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Elder

[bmcclure7]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is litterally what Omnipotent means Omni means all, Potent means power. Which means that if any power exists an omnipotent being possesses it.

But no matter how much you have you cannot go back in time

  Reveal hidden contents

Jarett Braden

With a huge interconnected work like the Cosmere, do you ever worry when introducing a new concept in a book? How it may affect past and future novels?

Brandon Sanderson

I do. This is the biggest challenge of having a large, interconnected universe like this. And the farther you write, the more difficult and dangerous this becomes. And this is why I need to have a large team, and some really solid beta readers. Because every writer, when writing a book, can get a little myopically focused on that book only. Which can be a good thing; most writers, it doesn't matter, because that book is going to be that book. But because the interconnectedness and the continuity of the Cosmere is so important to me, it's really handy to have a lot of people looking over my shoulder saying, "Are you sure you want to do that? Because it has this ramification here." We're not gonna catch all of them. But I do like that protection, and it is something that I think about quite a bit.

It is one of the reasons why I tried to build the underpinnings of the cosmere to be adaptable to a lot of different of the types of magic systems I type to write. This is why these fundamentals of Fortune and Identity and Connection are really what kind of drive creating the magic systems. You're often going to see me wanting to create magic systems that do similar things. And having these sort of magic system underpinnings that both drive me to ask "what new could I do with this?" but also have an intended connectivity between them is really helpful in a lot of different ways.

But it is dangerous, yes. And if I were going to give advice on that, it would be that make sure your fundamentals 1) naturally fit the type of systems that you would want to build, and 2) have enough versatility that they can be adapted to a variety of different styles of system. And stay away from some of the big problems, like time travel. Very early on, I'm like, "Cosmere can time travel into the future. You can speed things up for yourself, you can slow things down, your movement through space. But you cannot go backward." And having a few rules like that... there are not alternate dimensions in the cosmere. There are different planes of existence. But there are not alternate realities. We are not going to have the sort of things. (That I played with in Steelheart, because I knew I didn't have it in the cosmere. The Wheel of Time loves to play with alternate continuities as one of its themes of magic, and I love it. But it was built in and baked in from the beginning and used very well well. I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole.)

Make a few rules like that, and I think that's helpful from writing yourself out of problems with solutions that break everything. And let's just say that it is very hard to not do that, as evidenced by many film series which have a lot of different people working on them who can make their films work, but often will break the rest of the continuity in order to do so. And we can't afford to do that in the Cosmere. That's not something that I want to do.

YouTube Livestream 7 (May 7, 2020)

 

Lifeless are not the same person, they are artifical souls

We do know that they eiter do not exist or cannot be accessed

  Reveal hidden contents

Jarett Braden

With a huge interconnected work like the Cosmere, do you ever worry when introducing a new concept in a book? How it may affect past and future novels?

Brandon Sanderson

I do. This is the biggest challenge of having a large, interconnected universe like this. And the farther you write, the more difficult and dangerous this becomes. And this is why I need to have a large team, and some really solid beta readers. Because every writer, when writing a book, can get a little myopically focused on that book only. Which can be a good thing; most writers, it doesn't matter, because that book is going to be that book. But because the interconnectedness and the continuity of the Cosmere is so important to me, it's really handy to have a lot of people looking over my shoulder saying, "Are you sure you want to do that? Because it has this ramification here." We're not gonna catch all of them. But I do like that protection, and it is something that I think about quite a bit.

It is one of the reasons why I tried to build the underpinnings of the cosmere to be adaptable to a lot of different of the types of magic systems I type to write. This is why these fundamentals of Fortune and Identity and Connection are really what kind of drive creating the magic systems. You're often going to see me wanting to create magic systems that do similar things. And having these sort of magic system underpinnings that both drive me to ask "what new could I do with this?" but also have an intended connectivity between them is really helpful in a lot of different ways.

But it is dangerous, yes. And if I were going to give advice on that, it would be that make sure your fundamentals 1) naturally fit the type of systems that you would want to build, and 2) have enough versatility that they can be adapted to a variety of different styles of system. And stay away from some of the big problems, like time travel. Very early on, I'm like, "Cosmere can time travel into the future. You can speed things up for yourself, you can slow things down, your movement through space. But you cannot go backward." And having a few rules like that... there are not alternate dimensions in the cosmere. There are different planes of existence. But there are not alternate realities. We are not going to have the sort of things. (That I played with in Steelheart, because I knew I didn't have it in the cosmere. The Wheel of Time loves to play with alternate continuities as one of its themes of magic, and I love it. But it was built in and baked in from the beginning and used very well well. I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole.)

Make a few rules like that, and I think that's helpful from writing yourself out of problems with solutions that break everything. And let's just say that it is very hard to not do that, as evidenced by many film series which have a lot of different people working on them who can make their films work, but often will break the rest of the continuity in order to do so. And we can't afford to do that in the Cosmere. That's not something that I want to do.

YouTube Livestream 7 (May 7, 2020)

 

Did you misunderstand me or are you intentionally being disengenuous?

Maya's reveal in RoW that the spren chose the recreance was not at all what the Stormfather was refering to

God is omnipotent

 

And stop double posting, it's against the rules.

1. Exactly all powerful,  total or complete in power, not can do anything.

Someone can have all the  power to do anything but still be unable to do everything. 

It is impossible for God to:

1. Lie

2. Sin

3. Give the promise land to Abraham until the wickedness of the canaanites was complete 

4.  forgive sin without atonement 

Give these are all he cannot do 

Give that you say that if you can't do something you are not all powerful

then either:

You are right and God is not All-powerful

Or

You are wrong and  God is omniscient 

One of these is true but not both. 

 

 

 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Harmony can do both.  That’s my point.  He has a power that each of his shards were missing, but they don’t interfere with him using them.  Preservation’s intent doesn’t stop Harmony from whispering in people’s minds, and Ruin’s intent doesn’t keep him from picking up their thoughts.  In this case, the intent never stopped the separate shards.  They just never had those abilities to begin with.

Omnipotence means that it’s ALL your domain.  Nothing outside.  The fact that a dictator doesn’t have power outside their domain is what makes them not omnipotent.  Having to contend with rivals encroaching on your domain is a slap in the face to any claim of supremacy.  Omnipotence is power over ALL things.  Some of the Shards don’t even have that kind of mastery over one world, let alone everything.

Sorry typo I ment to say that if what you were saying was true he couldn't do both. 

He see preservation and talks with Rune. So there is not class of intents.

Again your mistaking Omniscience with sovereignty. You can have both of course but these are separated things. As a said a dictator can be sovereign but not Omnipotent. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Exactly all powerful,  total or complete in power, not can do anything.

Someone can have all the  power to do anything but still be unable to do everything.

That doesn't work, at all.

You cannot have all power, and still lack power.

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 It is impossible for God to:

1. Lie

2. Sin

3. Give the promise land to Abraham until the wickedness of the canaanites was complete 

4.  forgive sin without atonement 

Give these are all he cannot do 

Give that you say that if you can't do something you are not all powerful

then either:

You are right and God is not All-powerful

Or

You are wrong and  God is omniscient 

One of these is true but not both.

This is entering Theological discussion here, so this is where we really need to be careful.

So, while God is omnipotent, he is also perfect.

Everything listed are not things he is incapable of doing for lack of power, but because he will not allow himself to do them.

 

This is notably different from Shards who cannot do things because they do not have the power to do them.

[Elder]

44 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Sorry typo I ment to say that if what you were saying was true he couldn't do both. 

He see preservation and talks with Rune. So there is not class of intents.

Again you’re mistaking Omniscience with sovereignty. You can have both of course but these are separated things. As a said a dictator can be sovereign but not Omnipotent. 

Ok, I honestly think you don’t understand the word “Omniscient.”  So let’s set the record straight here.

3 Attributes of God:

1. Omnipotent:  All-Powerful. A.  God has Infinite Power.  B. God has power over all things, without Rival or Superior.  This is what we’ve been debating.  You are focused on (A).  The rest of us are pointing out that you’re overlooking (B), which I’ve been referring to as Sovereignty.

2.  Omniscient:  All-Knowing.  God knows All Things.  You keep tying this to the concept of sovereignty, but these are two distinct concepts.  You make no effort to try and prove this because the Shards have demonstrated over and over again that they are not all knowing, and can even be deceived.  

3.  Omnipresent: God is everywhere (and simultaneously nowhere).  Harmony does make a claim to this in SoS, but I find this claim debateable.  I’m not sure that one can necessarily say the Shards are on worlds other than their claimed domain.  Could be wrong about this.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Elder

[Frustration]

20 minutes ago, Elder said:

3.  Omnipresent: God is everywhere (and simultaneously nowhere).  Harmony does make a claim to this in SoS, but I find this claim debateable.  I’m not sure that one can necessarily say the Shards are on worlds other than their claimed domain.  Could be wrong about this.

That depends on how you count the SR, as there isn't any space there, so it is everywhere, and nowhere.

But at the same time there are places where Shards aren't, inside Aethers and Dawnshards and whatnot.

So, maybe.

[Elder]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That depends on how you count the SR, as there isn't any space there, so it is everywhere, and nowhere.

But at the same time there are places where Shards aren't, inside Aethers and Dawnshards and whatnot.

So, maybe.

Like I said.  Debateable.

Here’s what it comes down to:  Shards are power.  They have some knowledge, I would argue a memory.  But it’s not omniscient at all.  I’m not sure Omniscience is possible in the Cosmere.

If power is what you call God, Shards may qualify.  I don’t think anyone in the Cosmere could be blamed for having a higher standard.

[bmcclure7]

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That doesn't work, at all.

You cannot have all power, and still lack power.

This is entering Theological discussion here, so this is where we really need to be careful.

So, while God is omnipotent, he is also perfect.

Everything listed are not things he is incapable of doing for lack of power, but because he will not allow himself to do them.

 

This is notably different from Shards who cannot do things because they do not have the power to do them.

Ok I think I have misunderstood you or you just misunderstood me or both. 

You just reflect my own position back at me leaving me confused about what were are arguing about.

Please let me clarify my position and then clarify yours.

"while God is omnipotent, he is also perfect.

Everything listed are not things he is incapable of doing for lack of power, but because he will not allow himself to do them."

Yes!!! exactly !!!!! This has been my position the hole time. God is all powerful, but that power is limited by his sinless nature. He cannot lie not because he lacks the power to but because of his sinless nature.

 

In like manner the shards are also all powerful but limited by there nature (there intent). As the God of Abraham is limited by his sinless. 

 

Yes harmony has the power to destroy the Set and send the bomb into space, but his intent prevent him because his nature (intent) is inaction, just as God's nature is holiness. 

 

Vessel. 

Vessel are not gods, their the men who hold god leash. 

Shards are more then mere forces they have will and even likes ( RoW), but I the same time they aren't full living things and require vessel to control them.

Vessel are not all powerful and since shards can only act at there command, they act as another limiter to the shards omnipotence.

This why vessel can not see the future perfectly or into the beyond. 

Not because a shard cant reach, (they can RoW)  but because vessel are mortal and can't see.

 

That is my position. If there is anything I didn't clarify, ask and I will answer. 

Please also clarify your position as your last post has left me completely confused as to what that is. 

 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Ok, I honestly think you don’t understand the word “Omniscient.”  So let’s set the record straight here.

3 Attributes of God:

1. Omnipotent:  All-Powerful. A.  God has Infinite Power.  B. God has power over all things, without Rival or Superior.  This is what we’ve been debating.  You are focused on (A).  The rest of us are pointing out that you’re overlooking (B), which I’ve been referring to as Sovereignty.

2.  Omniscient:  All-Knowing.  God knows All Things.  You keep tying this to the concept of sovereignty, but these are two distinct concepts.  You make no effort to try and prove this because the Shards have demonstrated over and over again that they are not all knowing, and can even be deceived.  

3.  Omnipresent: God is everywhere (and simultaneously nowhere).  Harmony does make a claim to this in SoS, but I find this claim debateable.  I’m not sure that one can necessarily say the Shards are on worlds other than their claimed domain.  Could be wrong about this.

1.You're confusing shards with vessels. 

2. But yes are dispute seems to be weather sovereignty/supority is the same as omnipotent.  You seem to think it is, I do not since I can think of examples of someone being  supreme/sovereign and not being Onipotent. 

[Elder]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.You're confusing shards with vessels. 

2. But yes are dispute seems to be weather sovereignty/supority is the same as omnipotent.  You seem to think it is, I do not since I can think of examples of someone being  supreme/sovereign and not being Onipotent. 

1.  I promise you, I’m not.  Nor is that argument worth anything since there are no unsplintered shards without vessels.  As for the Splintered ones, such as the Dor and the Stormfather:  well, a Shard with a vessel literally sent the Stormfather crying.  I can’t imagine the Dor would do any better, especially since all it has is rudimentary emotions.

2.  Let’s consult the dictionary here:

Quote

omnipotent

1 of 2

adjective

om·nip·o·tent äm-ˈni-pə-tənt 

 

Synonyms of omnipotent

1

often capitalized  : ALMIGHTY sense 1

2

: having virtually unlimited authority or influence

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent
Each Shard’s Authority or Influence is extremely limited.  That’s what Harmony and Autonomy were fighting over.  

taking the link:

Quote

almighty

1 of 3

adjective

al·mighty ȯl-ˈmī-tē 

 

Synonyms of almighty

1

often capitalized  : having absolute power over all

Almighty God

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almighty
Like I said.  Not one Shard qualifies.

We’re not talking about rulers who ultimately derive their power from the people (and who can and will be overthrown if the people will it, no matter their sovereignty) We’re talking about Godhood.  An almighty God cannot be overthrown.  Cannot be destroyed by a rival, for that God has none,

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Elder

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

In like manner the shards are also all powerful but limited by there nature (there intent). As the God of Abraham is limited by his sinless. 

No.

I have pointed out dozens of things that they just do not have the power to do.

Brandon has said that they are not omnipotent.

What more will it take!

The intent doesn't limit investiture, because intent can be stripped from it.

But investiture still cannot do everything.

Shards don't even have infinite investiture at once, it just renews. Otherwise Ruin wouldn't have been so eager to collect the Atium.

[alder24]

I have to agree with @Frustration and @Elder on this one. I understand what are you saying @bmcclure7 and to some degree you are right, but Shards aren't Abrahamic Gods, they aren't Omnipotent or Omniscient (hard maybe on Omnipresent - their power is present across the Cosmere, but they can't access it). Intent however is an integral, inseparable and essential part of a Shard, you can't have a Shard without an Intent. And a Shard must have a Vessel, a mind to control it and function at all. There is no infinite mind that could grasp the full potential of a Shard. So while the power (investiture) is infinite, Shards can never fully achieve that, because there is no mind that could do it. That's why they can't be Omnipotent, and Harmony proves they are not Omniscient, because Harmony in SoS didn't even know what Trellium is, nor did he know in BoM what is attacking Scadrial, nor does he know where Invention is, and Ruin in Era 1 didn't know where the part of him, Atium, even was.

Spoiler

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Robert W

Does Jasnah still consider herself to be atheist and what would she have to see in order to change her view?

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah would stop being atheist if she got definitive proof of an omniscient and caring and omnipotent God. She does not, and I kind of agree with her, consider the Shards to be Gods (capital G). In her realm these are beings that, you know, everything is Invested, they're Invested more. Atheist means she does not believe that there is, in these terms, an omnipotent God. It doesn't necessarily have to mean loving, I might have said that. She means that there is no omnipotent, capital G God. She doesn't think one exists. She would need to have irrefutable proof that they do or that they did and then she would believe. It doesn't mean she would worship, but it does mean she would believe.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Quote

The Shards are not God, but they are pieces of God. Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy, Cultivation, Devotion...There are sixteen of them.  - Khriss SH

 

But Shards don't have to be Abrahamic Gods to be worshiped in the Cosmere as gods. Not every god needs to be omnipotent. But they are not The Gods.

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

No.

I have pointed out dozens of things that they just do not have the power to do.

Brandon has said that they are not omnipotent.

What more will it take!

The intent doesn't limit investiture, because intent can be stripped from it.

But investiture still cannot do everything.

Shards don't even have infinite investiture at once, it just renews. Otherwise Ruin wouldn't have been so eager to collect the Atium.

 Brandon has said multiple times even in one of your quotes that shards power is infinite.  I don't know why you continue to insist otherwise.

All those things they can't do, I believe are connected to either their limitations of their intent Or of the vessel Not of investiture itself.   And I think I have good reason to believe this. 

 Consider a seeing to beyond We know that investor can reach the beyond see RoW.  So this weakness must be a trait of the humanity of the vessel not the divinity of The Shard.

 

 

 

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I have to agree with @Frustration and @Elder on this one. I understand what are you saying @bmcclure7 and to some degree you are right, but Shards aren't Abrahamic Gods, they aren't Omnipotent or Omniscient (hard maybe on Omnipresent - their power is present across the Cosmere, but they can't access it). Intent however is an integral, inseparable and essential part of a Shard, you can't have a Shard without an Intent. And a Shard must have a Vessel, a mind to control it and function at all. There is no infinite mind that could grasp the full potential of a Shard. So while the power (investiture) is infinite, Shards can never fully achieve that, because there is no mind that could do it. That's why they can't be Omnipotent, and Harmony proves they are not Omniscient, because Harmony in SoS didn't even know what Trellium is, nor did he know in BoM what is attacking Scadrial, nor does he know where Invention is, and Ruin in Era 1 didn't know where the part of him, Atium, even was.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Robert W

Does Jasnah still consider herself to be atheist and what would she have to see in order to change her view?

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah would stop being atheist if she got definitive proof of an omniscient and caring and omnipotent God. She does not, and I kind of agree with her, consider the Shards to be Gods (capital G). In her realm these are beings that, you know, everything is Invested, they're Invested more. Atheist means she does not believe that there is, in these terms, an omnipotent God. It doesn't necessarily have to mean loving, I might have said that. She means that there is no omnipotent, capital G God. She doesn't think one exists. She would need to have irrefutable proof that they do or that they did and then she would believe. It doesn't mean she would worship, but it does mean she would believe.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

But Shards don't have to be Abrahamic Gods to be worshiped in the Cosmere as gods. Not every god needs to be omnipotent. But they are not The Gods.

 I see your point but to be fair Brandon Sanderson has contradicted himself multiple times on the omniscience of the shard.  As I have already produced several wobs  Where he seems to contradict himself from this point within the same wob. 

 Some clarifications about my position that I think you're misunderstanding me.

 

1.  I'm talking about the shards not the vessels. The vessels are human the shards they are bonded to or not. Shards are omnipresent,  Vessels are not.

 

2.  I never claim that the shards were  Somehow equivalent to the God of Abraham, Only that they shared a similar trait the trade of being All-powerful

I Personally I suspect that the closest will get toA Abraham at God will be audolosium. 

 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Brandon has said multiple times even in one of your quotes that shards power is infinite.  I don't know why you continue to insist otherwise.

Infinite is not the same as omnipotent. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge that.

And yes they are infinite, but they are infinite in that they renew, they don't have infinite investiture on hand all the time, as we have seen time and time again.

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

All those things they can't do, I believe are connected to either their limitations of their intent Or of the vessel Not of investiture itself.   And I think I have good reason to believe this.

Brandon has said that Investiture cannot do things.

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Consider a seeing to beyond We know that investor can reach the beyond see RoW.  So this weakness must be a trait of the humanity of the vessel not the divinity of The Shard.

No, we do not.

The Beyond is not even confirmed to exist, and never will be.

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I see your point but to be fair Brandon Sanderson has contradicted himself multiple times on the omniscience of the shard.  As I have already produced several wobs  Where he seems to contradict himself from this point within the same wob. 

He never once calls shards omnipotent.

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I Personally I suspect that the closest will get toA Abraham at God will be audolosium. 

Closest thing confirmed perhaps, but he's not even close.

Brandon will never confirm the existence of a Capital-G God, but he has confirmed Adonalsium.

Therefore Adonalsium is not omnipotent, or a God

Spoiler

Questioner

After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson

So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9596

 

 

 

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  I'm talking about the shards not the vessels. The vessels are human the shards they are bonded to or not. Shards are omnipresent,  Vessels are not.

I know you are, I'm saying that Shards as a power (investiture) and Vessels can't be separated. Shard without a vessel can't do anything. Shard must have a vessel to act. And because no vessel has an infinite mind, no vessel can access infinite power (investiture) of the Shard, but that power doesn't have any ability on its own, it can't act without a Vessel. That's the definition of the word "power - the ability to do something". So if Shard's investiture can't act without a Vessel, then it's powerless.

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  I never claim that the shards were  Somehow equivalent to the God of Abraham, Only that they shared a similar trait the trade of being All-powerful

Again, I know, I'm saying that they can't be Omnipotent. While Shard's power (investiture) is infinite, it isn't all powerful, as on its own it can't do anything. Power is the ability to do something. Investiture of a Shard doesn't act without a Vessel.  Investiture of a Shard isn't Omnipotent, as it needs a mind. It is infinite however.

[lacrossedeamon]

@Elder wanna talk about sliverism since everyone seemed to ignore your comments on that in favor of their inane debate?

Brandon has said that sliverism will be explored more in the next MB series. He's also implied that Bloody Tan will be explored more there as well. I'm wondering if these are connected and that Tan is a sliverist. I've also wondered if there might be a second Inquisitor (possibly unknown to Harmony) running around as a world contributing to the idea of Ironeyes as Death spreading through the cosmere.

[Elder]

2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

@Elder wanna talk about sliverism since everyone seemed to ignore your comments on that in favor of their inane debate?

Brandon has said that sliverism will be explored more in the next MB series. He's also implied that Bloody Tan will be explored more there as well. I'm wondering if these are connected and that Tan is a sliverist. I've also wondered if there might be a second Inquisitor (possibly unknown to Harmony) running around as a world contributing to the idea of Ironeyes as Death spreading through the cosmere.

My first impression was that Tan was a follower of Trell, but that doesn’t necessarily work as well if he’s going to be explained in the next series.  He could easily be a deranged Sliverist.  That obsession with Death might just cover it.  That said, it would seem weird to explore him in the future.  Wouldn’t it make more sense if he was perhaps in a second Secret History.

A rogue inquisitor would be interesting, though I thought a reasonably big deal was made of Vin having killed them all besides Marsh in the battle before her ascension.  That said, my memory on that is fuzzy, I’ll have to review Hero of Ages.

I get the impression that all of these religions, Survivorism, Sliverism, and Pathians (and followers of Trell) use Harmony’s Words of founding as a holy text, which I find interesting.  Harmony validated all their beliefs in his book.  They may realize Harmony is the Shard, but don’t find it necessary to worship him.  Of course, the Yomen’s may not have needed the Words of Founding to really carry forward Sliverism.

Again, my recollection of Hero of Ages is spotty, but iirc, Yomen seemed on the cusp of Cosmere awareness, which may be why his descendants seem to know and recognize Hoid.  Yomen’s unshaken faith in Rashek acknowledges the truth  that the Lord Ruler was only a Sliver of a Shard of Infinity.  Maybe they started to get a better picture of what the whole was.

[lacrossedeamon]

8 minutes ago, Elder said:

My first impression was that Tan was a follower of Trell, but that doesn’t necessarily work as well if he’s going to be explained in the next series.  He could easily be a deranged Sliverist.  That obsession with Death might just cover it.  That said, it would seem weird to explore him in the future.  Wouldn’t it make more sense if he was perhaps in a second Secret History.

A rogue inquisitor would be interesting, though I thought a reasonably big deal was made of Vin having killed them all besides Marsh in the battle before her ascension.  That said, my memory on that is fuzzy, I’ll have to review Hero of Ages.

I get the impression that all of these religions, Survivorism, Sliverism, and Pathians (and followers of Trell) use Harmony’s Words of founding as a holy text, which I find interesting.  Harmony validated all their beliefs in his book.  They may realize Harmony is the Shard, but don’t find it necessary to worship him.  Of course, the Yomen’s may not have needed the Words of Founding to really carry forward Sliverism.

Again, my recollection of Hero of Ages is spotty, but iirc, Yomen seemed on the cusp of Cosmere awareness, which may be why his descendants seem to know and recognize Hoid.  Yomen’s unshaken faith in Rashek acknowledges the truth  that the Lord Ruler was only a Sliver of a Shard of Infinity.  Maybe they started to get a better picture of what the whole was.

Rereading the WoBs it does seem more likely that it would be a SH2 or something. Basically all Brandon really said was that we should still be asking questions about Tan.

As for the Inquisitor it's possible he worldhopped prior to the Lord Ruler's death (or just after if there were some in the farther Dominances when Marsh unpinned the lot of them).

Yeah the Yomens are interesting. Wished we had seen more of them in W&W. 

[Elder]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Rereading the WoBs it does seem more likely that it would be a SH2 or something. Basically all Brandon really said was that we should still be asking questions about Tan.

As for the Inquisitor it's possible he worldhopped prior to the Lord Ruler's death (or just after if there were some in the farther Dominances when Marsh unpinned the lot of them).

Yeah the Yomens are interesting. Wished we had seen more of them in W&W. 

Maybe they’re setting up for an Era 3 main character.

took a look at some of those WoB’s.  Tan had an outside influence that wasn’t Harmony.  His whole puppets spiel is kinda ambiguous to me.  It could be a complaint inspired by Autonomy, but seems more like a sort of devotion to a higher power combined with fatalism or predestination.  He’s seen both the Survivor and Death.  Obviously this guy has some insight.  Maybe he just got a glimpse of Cosmere awareness and couldn’t handle it.  But where did he get the glimpse?

Seems like a non-sequitur, but in my ADHD brain it really isn’t, but Ironeyes is kinda in a weird position.  It seems like Survivorism and Sliverism both acknowledge him, one with dread one with reverence.  Harmony employs him.  And Marsh likes to encourage people to do his Brother’s work.  Is Marsh sympathetic to the Ghost Bloods?   We definitely need to see more of him.  They made it a point to continue preserving his life.  

Edited February 12, 2023 by Elder