Discord discussion

[bmcclure7]

Ok for reasons I will get into in another topic I believe that harmony will become discord in the next era, but I'm not entirely sure what that will mean for his Intent in a practical sense. 

If harmony mean inaction, indecisive, and equilibrium, perhaps discord would force him to take an equal active role with both shards.

Like every time he protests something he has to also destroy something else.  Any one else have any thoughts?

[Nick_Nack_Patty_Whack]

My aluminum foil hat theory that I have no way of backing (and I look forward to being wrong as usual):

Spoiler

Harmony is going to take a page from Autonomy's playbook and learn to split himself into two even beings: Harmony who has both Preservation and Ruin's power but with more of Preservation, while Discord will also have both Preservation and Ruin's Power, but with more power from Ruin.

 

[Tglassy]

The prophecy is "His name will be Discord, and they will love him for it."  Maybe that just means He'll be able to ACT.  Because right now, he isn't able to act.  If he had to destroy every time he protected, he could CHOOSE what to destroy each time.  Protect the child, destroy the one trying to hurt her.  

Harmony needs another Shard.  One that could stabilize him and unify his two halves.  Or he needs to pick someone to give that little extra Ruin to.  But which Shard would work?

Honor?  Would be hard.  But if he did, maybe he would be able to bind the two Shards together into something more cohesive.  

I feel if he took Cultivation, it would be appropriate because it's sort of the opposite of Ruin, but at the same time it would probably make him even MORE incapable of action.  All three sides would be wanting something different. 

 

[Karger]

I'm weird so I actually find the idea of Harmony as discord making perfect sense. 

discord

noun

dis·cord ˈdi-ˌskȯrd 

 

1

a

: lack of agreement or harmony (as between persons, things, or ideas)

… must we fall into the jabber and babel of discord while victory is still unattained?

Sir Winston Churchill

Harmony's intent is to maximize disunity.  That is great for people(like me) who cherish free will but problematic for anyone who wants to get stuff done.  Its difficult to accomplish things alone.  For every push Harmony will pull.  This is per both intents.  He wants things to stay the same but at the same time doesn't want things to stay together.  He is basically the second law of thermodynamics. 

The entropy of an isolated system never decreases: in equilibrium, the entropy stays the same; otherwise the entropy increases until equilibrium is reached.

[Aradel]

On 11/19/2022 at 1:54 PM, Nick_Nack_Patty_Whack said:

My aluminum foil hat theory that I have no way of backing (and I look forward to being wrong as usual):

  Hide contents

Harmony is going to take a page from Autonomy's playbook and learn to split himself into two even beings: Harmony who has both Preservation and Ruin's power but with more of Preservation, while Discord will also have both Preservation and Ruin's Power, but with more power from Ruin.

 

It's not as crazy as you think. I've been considering the same idea but haven't finished putting all my evidence together. We know that having a champion (sword) didn't solve all of Harmony's issues the way he hoped, Discord may be plan B.

[Blackhoof]

I think Discord will be inevitable in Era 3, and part of the plot will involve saving Sazed somehow from Discord, whether it be restabilizing him into Harmony or adding a third Shard to make him something new once more.

We can only speculate what Discord is like, but my guess is the opposite of Harmony. Whereas Harmony wants to act and do good for people, but has become increasingly indecisive and incapable of acting because of the warring Intents of Ruin and Preservation, Discord will be the release valve- no more indecision, just decision and action, regardless of the consequences. Wild and chaotic actions and displays of power, at least on a cosmic scale and when in communion with his followers, that has flow on effects that are broadly negative to peace on Scadrial.

[Nasax]

1 hour ago, Blackhoof said:

I think Discord will be inevitable in Era 3, and part of the plot will involve saving Sazed somehow from Discord, whether it be restabilizing him into Harmony or adding a third Shard to make him something new once more.

We can only speculate what Discord is like, but my guess is the opposite of Harmony. Whereas Harmony wants to act and do good for people, but has become increasingly indecisive and incapable of acting because of the warring Intents of Ruin and Preservation, Discord will be the release valve- no more indecision, just decision and action, regardless of the consequences. Wild and chaotic actions and displays of power, at least on a cosmic scale and when in communion with his followers, that has flow on effects that are broadly negative to peace on Scadrial.

I totally think you are right about that. I would like to add that Ruin is the stronger one of the two shards. So when we come to the point where Harmony transforms into Discord, the Intend to destroy will be stronger then the Intend to preserve. Therefore making Discord potentially the Villian of Era 3.
I think Kelsier kind of hinted to that in the epilog.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

I think Discord will be inevitable in Era 3, and part of the plot will involve saving Sazed somehow from Discord, whether it be restabilizing him into Harmony or adding a third Shard to make him something new once more.

It would be hilarious if the entire plot of the Cosmere devolves into stacking Shards on Sazed. 

[Nasax]

20 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It would be hilarious if the entire plot of the Cosmere devolves into stacking Shards on Sazed. 

Every new book is Sazed getting a new shard and getting more indecisive  And he is like: "Guys, please stop"

(Maybe) Cosmere Spoiler:

Spoiler

But maybe the plot resolves actually in building a new Adonalsium this way? 

 

[cometaryorbit]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:19 AM, Blackhoof said:

Wild and chaotic actions and displays of power, at least on a cosmic scale and when in communion with his followers, that has flow on effects that are broadly negative to peace on Scadrial.

Well it does say "they will love him for it". It's not IMO definite that Discord will be a bad thing overall. Current Sazed doesn't want it, but he's already compromised by his Shards, and anyway his pre-Ascension personality was a better fit for Harmony anyway.

I think Discord would definitely be a bad thing *for Sazed* (it would mean he'd lost his original human personality to the Shards) but not automatically a bad thing *for Scadrial*. Shard names are generally... charged, more positive or negative than the raw concept really has to be (Preservation not Stasis, Ruin not Entropy, Honor not Binding, etc.) Discord could be a force of creative tension and productive competition instead of one of destructive entropic chaos. Or it could be a protective force in a way Sazed really isn't now, destroying in order to protect. A Sazed more willing to use his Ruin side could have prevented most of the Era 2 problems by smiting the early Set members, for example. In an universe with hostile Shards out there, a more interventionist Sazed might be a net positive.

Of course, encouraging Sazed to just smite people is probably not a great thing. But I think a lot of Wax's arc is about Destroying to Protect being a potentially valid thing in some circumstances, though incomplete or invalid in other circumstances (Marasi represents the other side imo).

Edited January 4, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Blackhoof]

16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well it does say "they will love him for it". It's not IMO definite that Discord will be a bad thing overall. Current Sazed doesn't want it, but he's already compromised by his Shards, and anyway his pre-Ascension personality was a better fit for Harmony anyway.

I think Discord would definitely be a bad thing *for Sazed* (it would mean he'd lost his original human personality to the Shards) but not automatically a bad thing *for Scadrial*. Shard names are generally... charged, more positive or negative than the raw concept really has to be (Preservation not Stasis, Ruin not Entropy, Honor not Binding, etc.) Discord could be a force of creative tension and productive competition instead of one of destructive entropic chaos. Or it could be a protective force in a way Sazed really isn't now, destroying in order to protect. A Sazed more willing to use his Ruin side could have prevented most of the Era 2 problems by smiting the early Set members, for example. In an universe with hostile Shards out there, a more interventionist Sazed might be a net positive.

Of course, encouraging Sazed to just smite people is probably not a great thing. But I think a lot of Wax's arc is about Destroying to Protect being a potentially valid thing in some circumstances, though incomplete or invalid in other circumstances (Marasi represents the other side imo).

Well what if Discord takes the side of the North in the impending North-South Scadrial Cold War, and therefore the North loves him for it because they have a god on their side. But what if the North are in the wrong, or its a complex situation? We generally accept that deities shouldn't take sides in mortal conflicts, and certainly Harmony wouldn't, but Discord might be activist and interventionist to a negative degree, even if he benefits some people or has good intentions.

 

Just spitballing- it might be anything

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah it's not clear who "they" who love Discord are.

I'm not sure a cold war in which one side has an interventionist double-Shard on its side would stay a cold war, though. I doubt whatever happens with Discord will let him actually fully use his powers for long - they're just too overwhelming for the plot, imo. Even with metal blindness limiting him, I think a Shard could still find ways to stop a nuclear attack for example (the metal objects are brightly glowing so details can't be seen, but he could still see *where* the missiles were and could hit them with 500mph winds or something).

[IlstrawberrySeed]

The missiles would presumably be made with materials formed from preservation and ruin investiture, so he could probably just convert it back to investiture and absorb the power.

[Lightning]

9 years ago I had a dream about Sazed becoming Discord.  I guess that's some good dream juice (as my daughter would say). 

 

[A Begger from Scadrial]

On 29/11/2022 at 11:09 AM, Aradel said:

It's not as crazy as you think. I've been considering the same idea but haven't finished putting all my evidence together. We know that having a champion (sword) didn't solve all of Harmony's issues the way he hoped, Discord may be plan B.

Tbh, I'm fairly certain that Sazed will make Kel, Discord.

 

Ati already said that he was more Ruin than Preservation, the people (at least Survivorists) already love him and those who don't follow his doctrine, know of him.

 

Sazed said freely that it all "depends on him" 

So I'm excited to see if Discord vs Harmony = Kel vs Sazed.

 

Granted I also have zero evidence to back this up

[alder24]

13 hours ago, A Begger from Scadrial said:

Tbh, I'm fairly certain that Sazed will make Kel, Discord.

Ati already said that he was more Ruin than Preservation, the people (at least Survivorists) already love him and those who don't follow his doctrine, know of him.

Sazed said freely that it all "depends on him" 

So I'm excited to see if Discord vs Harmony = Kel vs Sazed.

Granted I also have zero evidence to back this up

That won't work. Discord is another name Sazed could have taken after ascending, if he wasn't able to balanced both powers, confirmed by WoB, and now it's in the book too. For Kelsier to be Discord, he would have to hold both Shards of Preservation and Ruin. And Kel had a really hard time holding Preservation, he isn't well attuned to it. I don't think Kel would be able to hold both Preservation and Ruin at the same time. If Sazed gives his Shards to Kel, he won't be Harmony anymore.

[SingleSoul]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

That won't work. Discord is another name Sazed could have taken after ascending, if he wasn't able to balanced both powers, confirmed by WoB, and now it's in the book too. For Kelsier to be Discord, he would have to hold both Shards of Preservation and Ruin. And Kel had a really hard time holding Preservation, he isn't well attuned to it. I don't think Kel would be able to hold both Preservation and Ruin at the same time. If Sazed gives his Shards to Kel, he won't be Harmony anymore.

We know that Kelsier couldn't hold Preservation for long. That don't necessarily mean he couldn't hold on to both shards. He certainly wouldn't be Harmony, but probably more towards Ruin and much more erratic. In my mind Kel fits very well with how I think of Discord, but I don't think this will actually happen.

My take on this now is that Harmony is the current configuration of the shards where Sazed keeps Ruin in a slightly subservient position. If the positions were reversed - if Ruin was dominant - I think the combination could be called something like Decay maybe.  Discord I believe is a state where the dominant shard keeps shifting, perhaps erratically. This could start out from Sazed trying to take a more active role, but at the same time both preserve and ruin in equal measure. Once he starts swinging it will be hard to regain balance, and things could quickly spiral out of control. 

[Elder]

I’ve been going through the Mistborn Trilogy and I think I may have figured out why Sazed is having trouble with his balance as of Era 2 (and presumably 3).  It’s a matter of timing.

The creation of humans left Ruin (Ati) more powerful than Preservation (Leras).  Yet as of The Hero of Ages Ruin (Ati) and Preservation (Vin) are evenly matched due to A lot of Ruin’s power being tied up in Atium being hoarded by the Kandra, and then burned up by Elend and the Mistfallen company.  It occurred to me that if Sazed hadn’t claimed both powers and changed the nature of God-Metal on Scadrial, all that Atium would have eventually coalesced in the pits if Hathsin.

Quote

“Crystals?” Vin asked, confused. “Atium crystals, Vin,” Dockson said. “They produce the geodes—I don’t think anyone actually knows how—that have atium beads at the center.” Kelsier nodded. “The crystals are why the Lord Ruler can’t simply send down Allomancers to Pull out the atium geodes. Using some types of Allomancy near the crystals makes them shatter—and it takes centuries for them to grow back.” “Centuries during which they won’t produce atium,” Dockson added. “And so you…” Vin trailed off. “I pretty much ended atium production in the Final Empire for the next three hundred years or so.”  
 

- Brandon Sanderson, Mistborn, the Final Empire, 2006 pg 457

(side note, knowing that Allomancy is the art of Preservation and that it shatters Ruin’s Godmetal makes a lot of sense now).

Fast forward 300 years, and now Sazed has a Shadow. If I had to guess, all that spent Atium has finally reconstituted itself as a part of Harmony, and it’s tipping his scales.

Then the Shadow is gone the next time Sazed sees Kelsier.  How did he make it go away? I’m guessing it has to do with Wax’s experiment and Marsh’s Atium compounding.  Wax’s experiment is a way to extract excess Ruin from Harmony in the form of Atium, which Marsh can then use for Compounding.  That will still put the stuff in circulation eventually, but much much more slowly.