Are we sure Trell is a Shard of Adolalsium?

[Storyspren]

I have been thinking that Adonalsium could only have been divided by itself, willingly. 
Or... there might be a force which apposes  Adonalsium and all its shards. 
 

With Trell's metal repelling allomantic metals etc, I gotta wonder if Trell may be part of or aligned with an outside power, and not from autonomy after all.

Has it been confirmed that Trell is related to Autonomy? 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

14 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

Has it been confirmed that Trell is related to Autonomy? 

No but it has been confirmed in a WOB that Trell is related to a Shard.

Spoiler

Questioner

In the past, you have said... that we've seen a metal that is from a Shard that we know, on Scadrial. You said Wax has seen the influence of a Shard other than Preservation, Ruin, or Harmony, and that the spike that Bleeder was using was a metal from a Shard we know. It seems like there's another Shard influencing Scadrial. Is Trell an extension of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And is that Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

And by process of elimination the only Shard that could plausibly be behind Trell is Autonomy.

The facts all line up, there's a guy named Trell in White Sand, Autonomy is known to meddle on other worlds, Autonomy (Or maybe just Patji) also 'Admires Rayse's Initiative' which is a HUMONGOUS red flag for me.

It just adds up.

Edited November 1, 2022 by JustQuestin2004

[Chaos he/him]

I felt like this fits better in the cosmere TLM forum, so I moved it there.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

18 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I felt like this fits better in the cosmere TLM forum, so I moved it there.

Coolio.

40 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

I have been thinking that Adonalsium could only have been divided by itself, willingly. 
Or... there might be a force which apposes  Adonalsium and all its shards. 

Also if you've read the SA Novella Dawnshard then there is a implication that

Spoiler

Adonalsium allowed himself to be Shattered by the 16 Vessels. I also don't think there is such a thing as 'Anti-Adonalsium'. To me that like saying that because Anti-Matter exists that Anti-Humans who are made of Anti-Matter also exist, it's too much of a stretch for me.

 

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

 

  Hide contents

Questioner

In the past, you have said... that we've seen a metal that is from a Shard that we know, on Scadrial. You said Wax has seen the influence of a Shard other than Preservation, Ruin, or Harmony, and that the spike that Bleeder was using was a metal from a Shard we know. It seems like there's another Shard influencing Scadrial. Is Trell an extension of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And is that Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

And by process of elimination the only Shard that could plausibly be behind Trell is Autonomy.

Not really.

The only evidence linking the two is that Trell appears in white sand.

Odium makes far more sense, and has more evidence.

[Storyspren]

So no opposing force to Adonalsium. Thanks everybody! Nip it in the bud!

[hitkay]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Not really.

The idea that it can't be Trell comes from the fact that Harmony isn't aware of the metal, and that it's from a Shard we knew at the time. As Harmony knows of Dominion, Devotion, Endowment, Odium, and presumably Cultivation and Honor, this leaves only Autonomy and the survival Shard, which generally isn't counted. But yeah, this is false, as Harmony has presumably never encountered the Investiture of any other Shards, and wouldn't recognize, say, raysium, even if he'd heard of it. Even if his communication with the Shards in his RoW letter involved encountering their Investiture, the only one who was a candidate is Endowment, who has been confirmed non-Trell by WoB.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The only evidence linking the two is that Trell appears in white sand.

Odium makes far more sense, and has more evidence.

There is some other evidence for Autonomy, which mostly revolves around how it fits her MO. But yeah, it also fits Odium's MO and there's more direct evidence for him.

I do still think Autonomy is more likely because she's a big player in the cosmere and I don't see how else she'd play a significant role in the foreseeable future. Thematically, Autonomy also works much better with Era 2, and narratively, I'd be surprised if Odium was the major antagonistic Shard in both the second half of Stormlight and Era 3. But I think it's most likely one of those two.

Or - tinfoil hat on - Trell is connected to both. Odium and Autonomy have previously worked together, Autonomy refused to act against him, Odium has had an influence on Scadrial and it's likely that Autonomy has as well. Trelagism focused on two deities - Nalt was represented by the sun (Autonomy is Invested in a sun), and Trell himself was believed to care far more about his believers than Nalt, which is exactly how Odium frames himself in comparison to the other Shards. Just a thought. I didn't think we had enough theories already.

Edited November 1, 2022 by hitkay

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

One of the main reasons I don't think it's Odium is because he's been stuck on Braize all this time and would have very little influence outside of Desolations.

He couldn't have sent a Voidspren or Fused since they are stuck with him so he'd need Worldhoppers to have any proper footholds in other worlds, which he might be willing to do, but wouldn't it make more sense to use such assets to, say, help him get out of his prison instead of trying to screw around with other worlds and potentially provoke a reaction from other Shards? 

It just doesn't make much sense to me that Rayse wouldn't be focused on Roshar, since regaining his freedom would be his top priority.

It'd make more sense for the New Odium to do something like that, but Trell has been interfering on Scadrial for decades before he Ascended.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by JustQuestin2004

[hitkay]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

One of the main reasons I don't think it's Odium is because he's been stuck on Braize all this time and would have very little influence outside of Desolations.

He couldn't have sent a Voidspren or Fused since they are stuck with him so he'd need Worldhoppers to have any proper footholds in other worlds, which he might be willing to do, but wouldn't it make more sense to use such assets to, say, help him get out of his prison instead of trying to screw around with other worlds and potentially provoke a reaction from other Shards?

It just doesn't make much sense to me that Rayse wouldn't be focused on Roshar, since regaining his freedom would be his top priority.

It'd make more sense for the New Odium to do something like that, but Trell has been interfering on Scadrial for decades before he Ascended.

Due to the terms of the contest of champions, Odium is not trying to regain his freedom at the time of The Lost Metal (between SA5 and SA6), which makes it likely that he's doing something Trell-esque somewhere in the cosmere. Seeing as he's terrified of Harmony, it makes sense that he'd target Scadrial first. As for "top priority", we know that Odium was planning to act against Harmony since before the contest was even agreed, and as for interference, we know Odium has already had some kind of previous influence on Scadrial.

And as for his use of his worldhopping assets, we know that he plans to use them to "screw around with other worlds": “I will,” Odium said, “though I will be able to focus my attentions on sending agents to the rest of the cosmere, using what I’ve conquered here as enough for now."

Regardless of whether or not Trell is Odium, Trell fits Odium's expected MO perfectly.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 minutes ago, hitkay said:

Due to the terms of the contest of champions, Odium is not trying to regain his freedom at the time of The Lost Metal (between SA5 and SA6), which makes it likely that he's doing something Trell-esque somewhere in the cosmere. Seeing as he's terrified of Harmony, it makes sense that he'd target Scadrial first. As for "top priority", we know that Odium was planning to act against Harmony since before the contest was even agreed, and as for interference, we know Odium has already had some kind of previous influence on Scadrial.

And as for his use of his worldhopping assets, we know that he plans to use them to "screw around with other worlds": “I will,” Odium said, “though I will be able to focus my attentions on sending agents to the rest of the cosmere, using what I’ve conquered here as enough for now."

Regardless of whether or not Trell is Odium, Trell fits Odium's expected MO perfectly.

But how? How would Odium have been able to circumvent the Oathpact so much that he could send an entire Splinter or Avatar to another System when the Oathpact, weakened or not, prevents him from leaving Braize? If he could all this time then why not send said Splinter or Avatar to Roshar to help with conquering it?

It just doesn't add up for me.

So that's why Trell isn't Odium to me.

Of course with The Lost Metal coming out this month I suppose I'll need to be ready to eat my own words.

[hitkay]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

But how? How would Odium have been able to circumvent the Oathpact so much that he could send an entire Splinter or Avatar to another System when the Oathpact, weakened or not, prevents him from leaving Braize? If he could all this time then why not send said Splinter or Avatar to Roshar to help with conquering it?

As you said, he's been busy on Roshar, and Scadrial hasn't been his priority. After SA5 when there's relative peace, he can take an increasingly active role as Trell.

As for Odium's imprisonment, we're still unclear exactly how it functions. But he doesn't necessarily need to Splinter himself again in order to have a presence on Scadrial. Moelach is potentially on Scadrial if Miles' last words were a Death Rattle (we know there's something weird about them), and the last we knew of his whereabouts he was in the Horneater Peaks, in the proximity of Cultivation's Perpendicularity. As the Unmade in Kholinar could block the Stormfather's influence, it's possible that Moelach (and potentially some other Unmade) could block Harmony's influence in Bilming. This might not be related to what's going on with Trell, even if Trell is Odium, but it does seem that there's a way for Odium to do this.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not really.

The only evidence linking the two is that Trell appears in white sand.

Meaning that Trell could be a worldhopper later turned into an Avatar. It need not imply that that happened on Taldaine, although that is the easiest answer.

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Odium makes far more sense, and has more evidence.

For all we know Harmony is developing subconcious suicidal tendencies or Ruin had created an Avatar that survived Ati's demise.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

For all we know Harmony is developing subconcious suicidal tendencies or Ruin had created an Avatar that survived Ati's demise.

That would make Trellium Atium, which it isn't.

[Ashbringer he/him]

WoBs have been misleading or overwritten before. See Szeth's Black Sphere being anti-Voidlight and not Voidlight.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

WoBs have been misleading or overwritten before. See Szeth's Black Sphere being anti-Voidlight and not Voidlight.

Brandon never outright said it was Voidlight. And while some WoB have been wrong(Oathbringer Honorblade anyone?) They are far more reliable than you seem to be suggesting.

[hitkay]

7 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

WoBs have been misleading or overwritten before. See Szeth's Black Sphere being anti-Voidlight and not Voidlight.

What's this in reference to, re: Trell?

[Ashbringer he/him]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Brandon never outright said it was Voidlight. And while some WoB have been wrong(Oathbringer Honorblade anyone?) They are far more reliable than you seem to be suggesting.

He did say "it's what you think it is" or something along those lines. And the theories were either Voidlight or an Unmade, but leaning Voidlight. Don't think many people predicted anti-Voidlight.

8 minutes ago, hitkay said:

What's this in reference to, re: Trell?

That there could be merit to Trell being related to a Shard, but not a Shard itself by our definition. Or just that WoBs can change.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

He did say "it's what you think it is" or something along those lines. And the theories were either Voidlight or an Unmade, but leaning Voidlight. Don't think many people predicted anti-Voidlight.

And the difference between anti-voidlight and regular Voidlight being minimal in this circumstance.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

20 hours ago, hitkay said:

As you said, he's been busy on Roshar, and Scadrial hasn't been his priority. After SA5 when there's relative peace, he can take an increasingly active role as Trell.

Assuming that Odium doesn’t win the contest of champions… maybe Trell is Dalinar Kholin sent out to do the bidding of Odium after losing the contest of champions in SA5

[StormingTexan he/him]

8 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Assuming that Odium doesn’t win the contest of champions… maybe Trell is Dalinar Kholin sent out to do the bidding of Odium after losing the contest of champions in SA5

Not sure how this is possible with the timeline. The Set were pretty established by the time of AoL and Era2 happens in the gap between SA5 and SA6 which assuming that is still around 10 years time we have pretty much sen that much in-world time by Lost Metal. Plus that would be a pretty major spoiler for SA5. 

[hitkay]

23 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Not sure how this is possible with the timeline. The Set were pretty established by the time of AoL and Era2 happens in the gap between SA5 and SA6 which assuming that is still around 10 years time we have pretty much sen that much in-world time by Lost Metal. Plus that would be a pretty major spoiler for SA5. 

Agreed. Trell might be Odium, but we almost certainly won't see Dalinar. Or if we do, it'll be a Thaidakar situation where we won't know it's Dalinar.

I think the evidence points towards Trell being a Shard, a Splinter or an Avatar, not an individual, from Harmony's description in Bands of Mourning. The only way I can see it being an individual is if the Ire took up part of the Dor using that orb thing, and in terms of likelihood, I think that's a distant third after Autonomy and Odium.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Not sure how this is possible with the timeline. The Set were pretty established by the time of AoL and Era2 happens in the gap between SA5 and SA6 which assuming that is still around 10 years time we have pretty much sen that much in-world time by Lost Metal. Plus that would be a pretty major spoiler for SA5. 

1 hour ago, hitkay said:

Agreed. Trell might be Odium, but we almost certainly won't see Dalinar. Or if we do, it'll be a Thaidakar situation where we won't know it's Dalinar.

I think the evidence points towards Trell being a Shard, a Splinter or an Avatar, not an individual, from Harmony's description in Bands of Mourning. The only way I can see it being an individual is if the Ire took up part of the Dor using that orb thing, and in terms of likelihood, I think that's a distant third after Autonomy and Odium.

Yeah you are both right, no way it could actually be dalinar (at least not in a way we would be finding out in TLM. Although I do lean further and further towards SA5 going very badly for the good guys in the end, maybe not a total defeat (like maybe they find some way out of the fully worst possible scenario after losing) but I don’t think they will come out on top

[Arkangel]

Donning my aluminum foil hat and jumping right in.

What if Trell is the child of Odium and Autonomy? Like how the Sibling is the child of Honor and Cultivation. Either created before Odium was locked on Braize or later if Autonomy (or an Avatar) snuck into the Rosharan system. I'm not certain of the process of "conceiving" a Shardbaby but I imagine it involves merging large Splinters of each Shard's respective Investiture. Now, where would the name Trell come from? As mentioned, a minor character in White Sand bears this name and forms the of name appear as well, meaning it holds significance on Taldain. Then either these names are in reference (reverence?) to the Splinter or perhaps the Splinter was picked up by a vessel whose name was Trell.

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Arkangel said:

Donning my aluminum foil hat and jumping right in.

What if Trell is the child of Odium and Autonomy? Like how the Sibling is the child of Honor and Cultivation. Either created before Odium was locked on Braize or later if Autonomy (or an Avatar) snuck into the Rosharan system. I'm not certain of the process of "conceiving" a Shardbaby but I imagine it involves merging large Splinters of each Shard's respective Investiture. Now, where would the name Trell come from? As mentioned, a minor character in White Sand bears this name and forms the of name appear as well, meaning it holds significance on Taldain. Then either these names are in reference (reverence?) to the Splinter or perhaps the Splinter was picked up by a vessel whose name was Trell.

The red Investiture of Trell implies some level of co-opted Investiture. But "Shardbabies" seem to be a far better combination, where the Investiture isn't corrupted but fused together into a single Tone. But Trell is red, which, as I said, meas corruption. 

It is, however, possible that it is an Avatar of Autonomy corrupted by Odium. 

[Nesh he/him]

I really think Odium would be too restricting for Brandon to use here, having to tiptoe so much around Stormlight.  He can probably get away with the Ghostbloods without mentioning stuff on Roshar, but Odium involvement is another matter.