Another vs battle

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Okay.  This is siege warfare.  Please make arguments for one side invading the other and then reverse it.  Which planet has a better chance at victory?  

Invaders: 

Rashek in his fullborn glory.  We will give him spikes to create new hemalurgic creations during the siege if he needs as well as his armies.  Assuming he brings with him the 16 inquisitors he first made to lead his koloss and kandra as well. 

Vasher with the Peacegivers gift and Nightblood.  He has the Lifeless army of Hallandren as well as the Court of the gods and their awakener priests.  He also has control over Kalads phantoms.  

The battles will be for Hallandren and Luthadel. 

The goal is to lay siege to and take over the other cities.  Defeating the enemy commander is the end goal... they will go down with the ship.  The same armies will be used for defense as well as offense.  The defending cities do have citizens and smaller human armies / city guard to defend with.  

Do you think the average citizen will make a difference in a drawn out siege?  

Do you think any of these armies is imba enough to push through and defeat the other armies commander through eachothers turtle at home base?  

Bonus:  How would these armies fare against Dalinar and the Knights as they stand at the end of RoW?  *I didn't want to assign knights to attack off planet due to the limitations of Roshar magic and staying on Roshar.* 

Feel free to speculate and adjust numbers / army setup as you wish.  I tried to pindown the exact number of Koloss TLR had at the time of his death but couldn't.  I know when he died the numbers of Koloss exploded as Ruin was ramping up for the extinction of the planet.  I pictured a couple 20-40k koloss in my mind but if anyone has figures from TLRs time I would love to hear them.  

 

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

I think that Rashek would win. If he has hemalurgic spikes, then he can make inquisitors and kandra. Vasher has limited mobility, while Rashek can, well, fly. Kandra would favor him in a drawn-out siege, and Rashek could probably kill Vasher without getting hit with Nightblood. What's more, Rashek could compound enough Investiture to not get eaten by Nightblood. The inquisitors are much more powerful than Kalad's Phantoms, and both Lifeless and Awakened objects are kinda a joke to mistborn, as they can leech Investiture.

[Spearguy]

Does Rashek and his inquisitors get access to all alomantic metals?

[Spearguy]

On the Nalthen side the ordinary citizen could make a huge difference, as if they need more soldiers they could turn any number of corpses into Lifeless soldiers. 

[AltonicKeys he/him]

Siege on Luthadel - 

Rashek would shred through lifeless, stone or not. Koloss can wield big giant hammers and such. Awakeners have a disadvantage in Luthadel, as Scadrial has very little color, and ashfalls would ruin dyes. Kandra can easily infiltrate the awakeners. Assuming the Luth population is willing to fight, they'll make a small difference. If allomancers or feruchemists fight, they might win. Rashek is also a killing machine, and is practicaly unkillable. Awakeners can't iron-pull his metalminds out like Vin did.
Inquisitors are probably evil, so Nightblood would take care of those. We know Luthadel struggles with sieges in WoA, so they can't last very long in a stalemate. If the other cities support Vasher, they'd win in the stalemate. They have no way of importing to Luth. Awakeners can always make more Lifeless, maybe even out of Inquisitors?

Siege on Hallandren - 

Awakeners have much more color, and have access to more breath. Lifeless aren't a problem.
Hallandren's general population is much less accustomed to combat, and why would they with Lifeless? The Returned aren't very useful, they can't awaken. Rashek's army can literaly fly.

 

So yeah. Rashek would shred through Hallandren.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

What are peoples thoughts on creating fallen koloss into lifeless?   In both engagements... 

The Returned were mostly put in here for their commands and the fact that each of the gods had a few awakeners of the mid heightenings among their priests.  

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

You would have to remove the Hemalurgic spikes to turn koloss or Inquisitors into Lifeless, as hemalurgy invests them.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

You would have to remove the Hemalurgic spikes to turn koloss or Inquisitors into Lifeless, as hemalurgy invests them.

Is a dead husk still invested?   The spikes might be but you aren't animating an invested being once its destroyed and dead... you are just bringing back a 10 foot tall meat shield.  

I don't see inquistors as having an easy time against Kalads phantoms either (not to say it will be impossible)

Vasher and Rashek are the powerhouses in these battles.  Vasher needs to utilize as many meatshields as possible to protect himself while he can ranged awaken enemy clothing to impare movement or even straight strangle or rip apart the bodies wearing it.  The other awakeners would primarily be there to keep numbers up as much as they can, turning anything that they can, when they can, into lifeless and using it to bolster their armies.  

Rashek doesn't really get to steel speed blitz Vasher in this fight which allows Vasher to utilize some great tricks and not even Rashek will survive Nightblood.  While he is highly highly invested I don't think compounding is going to stop Nightblood from destroying him on all 3 planes of existence.  

I do think Koloss far outshine a lifeless but I also believe stone golems outpace koloss.  

Kandra... I see them as being a wildcard... they should be able to fight in this due to most of their enemies being undead... is it breaking the contract to kill a returned or a lifeless??? 

How fast does Rashek take to the battlefield and try to get to Vasher to end the whole thing?  Is Rashek reckless enough to prove to Vasher that he never stood a chance to allow Vasher to cut him even once... Rasheks god complex could legit be the game throw of all time if he pulls a repeat of Kelsier and let's Vasher run him through just to prove he is stronger... 

How much tensile strength does breath add to cloth?   We know awakened cloth can be cut but we also see it throw whole bodies like they are nothing and have fast enough reflexes to catch arrows out of the air.  If all of Rasheks clothing were to suddenly constrict him like a magically infused python would he be fast enough tapping the strength needed to rip and shred it all?   

As for metals available.  Let's do scenarios based on both... full 16 and just what TLR allowed his inquisitors to know.  I would say time bubbles are a huge benefit for disrupting enemies... but can lifeless and golems suffer the time lag sickness we see in bands of mourning?? My guess is not so much. 

[bmcclure7]

18 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

I think that Rashek would win. If he has hemalurgic spikes, then he can make inquisitors and kandra. Vasher has limited mobility, while Rashek can, well, fly. Kandra would favor him in a drawn-out siege, and Rashek could probably kill Vasher without getting hit with Nightblood. What's more, Rashek could compound enough Investiture to not get eaten by Nightblood. The inquisitors are much more powerful than Kalad's Phantoms, and both Lifeless and Awakened objects are kinda a joke to mistborn, as they can leech Investiture.

 With night blood and a few phantoms I think he could take a inquisitor, it would be difficult but with his skill and cleverness I would give at least even odds. But not much he can do against a full except throw night blood at him and hope that works (which it might). 

[SteelBagel]

On 10/24/2022 at 11:44 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Okay.  This is siege warfare.  Please make arguments for one side invading the other and then reverse it.  Which planet has a better chance at victory?  

Invaders: 

Rashek in his fullborn glory.  We will give him spikes to create new hemalurgic creations during the siege if he needs as well as his armies.  Assuming he brings with him the 16 inquisitors he first made to lead his koloss and kandra as well. 

Vasher with the Peacegivers gift and Nightblood.  He has the Lifeless army of Hallandren as well as the Court of the gods and their awakener priests.  He also has control over Kalads phantoms.  

The battles will be for Hallandren and Luthadel. 

The goal is to lay siege to and take over the other cities.  Defeating the enemy commander is the end goal... they will go down with the ship.  The same armies will be used for defense as well as offense.  The defending cities do have citizens and smaller human armies / city guard to defend with.  

Do you think the average citizen will make a difference in a drawn out siege?  

Do you think any of these armies is imba enough to push through and defeat the other armies commander through eachothers turtle at home base?  

Bonus:  How would these armies fare against Dalinar and the Knights as they stand at the end of RoW?  *I didn't want to assign knights to attack off planet due to the limitations of Roshar magic and staying on Roshar.* 

Feel free to speculate and adjust numbers / army setup as you wish.  I tried to pindown the exact number of Koloss TLR had at the time of his death but couldn't.  I know when he died the numbers of Koloss exploded as Ruin was ramping up for the extinction of the planet.  I pictured a couple 20-40k koloss in my mind but if anyone has figures from TLRs time I would love to hear them.  

 

Vasher with all the Breath and Rashek are the real contenders here. Neither of them could easily be taken out. Rashek is obviously a lot harder to kill, but Vasher does have the only weapon in the Cosmere capable of doing it. Vasher has a lot more offensive capabilities thanks to all the junk he has and can awaken, so without Rashek this is easy. Rashek's army is probably pretty dogshit, with all their combat experience being against malnourished, outnumbered, untrained, unequipped skaa for the last 500 years. Especially since all of the Allomancers who work for Rashek are noble, and therefore unlikely to join the army. Going in with the steel inquisitors and Rashek to assasinate Vasher is probably the best plan, since Rashek alone can easily Blitz and oneshot him, but it all depends on how seriously Rashek takes this threat. if he's going all out, Vasher doesn't have a chance, and if he can hide away Nightbood somehow, There's nothing stopping him from just soloing the entirety of Hallranden. Of course, that depends on how well he can resist Nightblood, which I don't give him great odds for. So this is the scenario I'm imagining: Vasher and his armies roll up in Luthadel. Rashek, energized at finally seeing something new for the first time in hundreds of years, goes and Interogates Vasher, but thanks to Zinc compounding he doesn't let his guard down, and when Vasher tries to kill him, Rashek Blitzes and Kills Vasher. However, nightblood then seduces Rashek, convincing him to kill himself. With both leaders dead, the Armies of Hallranden easily storm over Luthadel, especially with no one to command the Koloss.

[Rg2045]

I think the real question is if TLR would be killed by nightblood. 
I could see vasher killing an inquisater or two TLR seeing it and wanting the weapon. 
The vasher dropping nightblood to let TLR “take it” and the killing himself

[SteelBagel]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:09 PM, Rg2045 said:

I think the real question is if TLR would be killed by nightblood. 
I could see vasher killing an inquisitor or two TLR seeing it and wanting the weapon. 
The vasher dropping nightblood to let TLR “take it” and the killing himself

I think TLR would die to nightblood. it would suck up all his reserves, and then he'd become so old he'd die even if he let go of it. Not sure if he could be controlled by nightblood or if his copper would block that though. I think copper would block it, but there's a good chance TLR would take nightblood anyway, because hey free sword.

[Frustration]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:09 AM, Rg2045 said:

I think the real question is if TLR would be killed by nightblood. 
I could see vasher killing an inquisater or two TLR seeing it and wanting the weapon. 
The vasher dropping nightblood to let TLR “take it” and the killing himself

Why would Vasher risk that?

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Rashek loses because he's an incompetent imbecile. If anyone else was in charge, Scadrial wins.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

45 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Rashek loses because he's an incompetent imbecile. If anyone else was in charge, Scadrial wins.

I laughed at this because I have often felt the same about Rashek.  Either he wanted to die or he was an honest to goodness idiot.  His powerset allows him to be second in the cosmere only to the shards themselves and yet he was killed in the most pathetic way possible.  

Hence why I genuinely think if he was facing Nightblood he would totally try to flex on Vasher by letting him stab him expecting to gold compound through it and laugh.  

 

[Rg2045]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Why would Vasher risk that?

Honestly TLR is one of if not the most op person in the cosmer it’s a hailmary and could work even if it doesn’t outright kill him