Kandra World Hopping Inconsistency

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 hours ago, Yumiya said:

Do we know how far Harmony can exert control? If cognitive shadows have trouble leaving their shard's area of investiture, how far does the shard's power extend? Seems like Odium and Cultivation cannot really do much outside the Rosharan system. So can Harmony actually control Kandra outside his system? If not, that means Trell is physically in system...

All Metalic Arts work anywhere. And both Allomancy and Hemalurgy are directly linked to Harmony. So I think Harmony shouldnt have troubles to reach any Allomancer and Hemalurgic Construct anywhere in Cosmere.

[That1Cellist he/him]

24 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

All Metalic Arts work anywhere. And both Allomancy and Hemalurgy are directly linked to Harmony. So I think Harmony shouldnt have troubles to reach any Allomancer and Hemalurgic Construct anywhere in Cosmere.

Thank you. I knew my wording was off.

[StormingTexan he/him]

6 hours ago, Yumiya said:

Do we know how far Harmony can exert control? If cognitive shadows have trouble leaving their shard's area of investiture, how far does the shard's power extend? Seems like Odium and Cultivation cannot really do much outside the Rosharan system. So can Harmony actually control Kandra outside his system? If not, that means Trell is physically in system...

We actually already have an example of a Cognitive Shadow being able to control an invested being remotely. It is even weirder than this because the CS is not even using a form of investiture native to their planet. 

SA Spoiler (all the way to SA5 prologue) 

Spoiler

Kelsier is using a Seon as an "Avatar" on Roshar.  Presumably communicating in real time Scadrial to Roshar. 

So I would think Harmony should still be able to control/communicate with. Kandra off world. 

[Yumiya]

2 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

We actually already have an example of a Cognitive Shadow being able to control an invested being remotely.

But we are not talking about a CS controlling another CS/Spren/Seon. We are talking about a shard's vessel controlling a living being who has been spiked and is now off world. Can Endowment create a Returned of someone in a different solar system? We know Returned can live in different invested areas, but do not know  if they can be created elsewhere. Can Cultivation grant boons/banes outside her clearing? 

Shards seem to have limitations inside other shard's domains. I think a Kandra on a world invested with a different shard would have "interference" in their connection to Harmony. I mean, what else could be happening in Bilming, other than shardic interference?

[StormingTexan he/him]

57 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

But we are not talking about a CS controlling another CS/Spren/Seon. We are talking about a shard's vessel controlling a living being who has been spiked and is now off world. Can Endowment create a Returned of someone in a different solar system? We know Returned can live in different invested areas, but do not know  if they can be created elsewhere. Can Cultivation grant boons/banes outside her clearing? 

Shards seem to have limitations inside other shard's domains. I think a Kandra on a world invested with a different shard would have "interference" in their connection to Harmony. I mean, what else could be happening in Bilming, other than shardic interference?

Well I would think a Shard has way more power to do so than a CS. My point with what I posted was there does not seem to be a limitation of controlling an invested being from one planet to another since we have seen a CS do it. I would call a Kandra an invested being. They were made with a form of investiture and essentially die without it. The Kandra wouldn't be created on another planet. Could Cultivation grant a boon/cure to a person that then becomes a world hopper? That would more accurate analogy because Harmony is not trying to create a Kandra on a different planet. 

Shards are tied to worlds they invest but I do not think this necessarily limits their power (or reach) on other planets. Obviously we are seeing this with Trell and assuming it is Autonomy she is not physically there on Scadrial. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by StormingTexan

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think a similar question - whether someone with Hemalurgy on another planet would hear Ruin/Preservation, or whatever Shard was living there - has been RAFO'd pretty strongly.

[StormingTexan he/him]

Well Brandon has retcon this previous WoB in the TLM spoiler stream so the Kandra on Roshar is NOT under Harmony's control. Either that or he was talking about a different Kandra we have seen in the WoB. 

 

Quote

 

Newan (paraphrased)

I asked what planet we have seen the kandra worldhopper on.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said "You have seen her before".

Newan (paraphrased)

I asked if she was an agent of Sazed

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said yes.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

 

[ftl]

Yep, here's the more recent WoB:

 

Quote

 

Nextorl

In The Lost Metal, MeLaan is said to be the first kandra Harmony sent off-world. Does that mean that the kandra on Roshar are not in Harmony's employment?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! Good way to connect the dots. That is exactly what that means.

R'Shara

Brandon, you previously said the kandra on Roshar WAS an agent of Harmony.

Brandon Sanderson

Did I? *sounds uncertain* Well...

Adam Horne

Brandon can change his mind!

Brandon Sanderson

I'm changing my mind. Yeah. No. I... uhh... Nope, not an agent of-

Adam Horne

Well, without giving you any other context to that-

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, I know who this kandra is. I'm not sure why I would have said that, but yeah, so...

...

I know exactly who this kandra is and what they're doing and yeah. I'm going to say I don't know why I said that before, but now, no.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

So it sounds like Brandon is pretty certain right now that the  Kandra on Roshar is NOT an agent of Harmony. He doesn't remember why or if he previously said it was.

It's been eight years since that earlier WoB. He could have changed his mind in those nine years, or it could have been that the questioner back in Salt Lake City Comic-con 2014 misunderstood the answer he got (or Brandon misunderstood the question he was being asked.)

[lacrossedeamon]

If that Kandra is Felt's wife which people have theorized it would make sense to not really be connected to Harmony since Felt was running around before Harmony Ascended.

[Yomisma]

17 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Felt was running around before Harmony Ascended

So it could be Felt himself

[lacrossedeamon]

5 hours ago, Yomisma said:

So it could be Felt himself

Unless Brandon is intentionally misleading us, which isn't really his style, Felt is human. It's possible that he's died and been replaced by a kandra between Mistborn Era 1 and Stormlight but I don't think that's the case.

[Seana she/her]

On 10/21/2022 at 0:21 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Which would mean that a Kandra has Worldhopped before and that explorations have been done before, and that Melaan is just an unreliable narrator.

I mean… she is MeLaan, who has a history of being the “teenage dirtbag” of Kandra.

 

Also; all the “letters” from Sazed in the Stormlight books would need to have a messenger, and a Kandra worldhopper would make sense. Kelsier doesn’t seem like he’d let his agents be used willy-nilly just to send letters from Harmony, based on what we hear in this book.

 

Personally I think that there’s multiple Kandra worldhoppers but not a ton yet. And one of them is an agent of Harmony who we will be able to notice.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Seana

[Yomisma]

Hmmm... In a thousand years Rashek should have sent spies out of his comfort zone right? Kandra called him father. There doesn't have to be just Sazed agents outside.

[kenod]

On 12-12-2022 at 3:20 PM, Seana said:

Also; all the “letters” from Sazed in the Stormlight books would need to have a messenger, and a Kandra worldhopper would make sense. Kelsier doesn’t seem like he’d let his agents be used willy-nilly just to send letters from Harmony, based on what we hear in this book.

There's apparently an "official" message-carrying group in the cognitive realm, which Harmony could have used. Keep in mind that most traffic between planets isn't secret organizations, there are enough regular folks out there that there's a whole interplanetary economy, something Hoid noted to Kelsier, saying his destruction of the Pits disrupted the economic/mercantile system. There are enough others regularly visiting Scadrial Harmony could entrust messages to, people who actually know how to best get those messages to Shards and other big figures.

Also, as someone else noted, Brandon confirmed in a WoB that MeLaan is indeed the first Harmony Kandra, the others weren't sent by him, and just regular worldhoppers.

Edited December 13, 2022 by kenod

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 26.10.2022 at 8:39 PM, Bzhydack said:

All Metalic Arts work anywhere. And both Allomancy and Hemalurgy are directly linked to Harmony. So I think Harmony shouldnt have troubles to reach any Allomancer and Hemalurgic Construct anywhere in Cosmere.

I am afraid that is directly contradicted by the evidence. Harmony wrote MeLaan a physical letter informing her of Wayne's death.

 

On 26.10.2022 at 10:28 PM, StormingTexan said:

We actually already have an example of a Cognitive Shadow being able to control an invested being remotely. It is even weirder than this because the CS is not even using a form of investiture native to their planet. 

SA Spoiler (all the way to SA5 prologue) 

  Hide contents

Kelsier is using a Seon as an "Avatar" on Roshar.  Presumably communicating in real time Scadrial to Roshar. 

So I would think Harmony should still be able to control/communicate with. Kandra off world. 

(all the way to SA5 prologue))

Spoiler

I am sorry, but no. The usual way they do it on Sel is that they have two Seons who voluntarily communicate at both ends of the channel. We must assume that Thaidakar was using the same procedure, so no evidence at all.

 

On 13.12.2022 at 10:22 PM, Yomisma said:

Hmmm... In a thousand years Rashek should have sent spies out of his comfort zone right? Kandra called him father. There doesn't have to be just Sazed agents outside.

Or some of the first generation were not happy about being turned to Kandra and left.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Who’s Felt again?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Who’s Felt again?

One of Dalinar's men who was originally an agent of House Venture on Scadrial at the time of the Catacendre.