The Ire?

[Lord_of_Awesome]

So I was reading some WoB recently, and I found this nugget:

Quote

Aonar_Faileas

In Elantris, did the Hoed actually die when they entered the pool?

Brandon Sanderson

Now THAT is the question people should be asking.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 25, 2015)

What if, and forgive my drunk theorising here, the Hoed are Elantrians who become the Ire?

[Quantus he/him]

Yes and sort of.  That particular Hoed became the Lighthouse Keeper and did join the Ire once he left the Physical Realm, but the Ire predate the Raod so they are not purely zombie Elantrian that tried to escape their fate like him.  

 

 

Quote

 

Khyrindor

The lighthouse guy was Ire? In Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Khyrindor

And he was the same Elantrian that they put in the Shardpool at the end of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he is the same person.

Khyrindor

And was he Ire before--

Brandon Sanderson

He was not before then.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Whoah this is so cool I never knew this! That’s a cool connection about the lighthouse guy! This also makes the mistborn secret history comments make more sense to me: 

Spoiler

When Kelsier learns about the Ire and is told by Fuzz that they are dead but not. But also not really like him either. Because they went into the pool and transitioned from the physical realm to the cognitive realm….

So when they go into the pool, are they losing their tie to the physical realm and becoming true cognitive shadows, or are they merely using the shard pool / perpendicularity as an entrance to the cognitive realm? Can they go back? My guess is that they can’t go back based on the info in the spoiler section above. 

[offer]

12 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Whoah this is so cool I never knew this! That’s a cool connection about the lighthouse guy! This also makes the mistborn secret history comments make more sense to me: 

  Hide contents

When Kelsier learns about the Ire and is told by Fuzz that they are dead but not. But also not really like him either. Because they went into the pool and transitioned from the physical realm to the cognitive realm….

So when they go into the pool, are they losing their tie to the physical realm and becoming true cognitive shadows, or are they merely using the shard pool / perpendicularity as an entrance to the cognitive realm? Can they go back? My guess is that they can’t go back based on the info in the spoiler section above. 

They probably just transition to the cognitive realm and can return.

 

SA

Spoiler

In the Way of Kings we see Galadon in the purelake looking for Hoid.

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

5 minutes ago, offer said:

They probably just transition to the cognitive realm and can return.

Yeah I suppose that makes sense, hard not to overthink these things when you come across something new lol thanks

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

On 16/09/2022 at 2:58 AM, JasonKeheIsLame said:

 

  Hide contents

When Kelsier learns about the Ire and is told by Fuzz that they are dead but not. But also not really like him either. Because they went into the pool and transitioned from the physical realm to the cognitive realm….

So when they go into the pool, are they losing their tie to the physical realm and becoming true cognitive shadows, or are they merely using the shard pool / perpendicularity as an entrance to the cognitive realm? Can they go back? My guess is that they can’t go back based on the info in the spoiler section above. 

Spoiler

They're only using it as an entrance into the Cognitive Realm. The 'died but did not' bit is supposed to mean that they "died" and became Elantrians (see how all throughout Elantris the Reod Elantrians are referred to as dead due to their hearts not beating and wounds not healing), which is different from Kelsier because he did die, he just found a way to hang onto life as a Cognitive Shadow. They can indeed go back.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Treamayne]

@Underwater_Worldhopper, @Quantus, @offer - please spoiler tag your posts (this is the Mistborn forum, not Cosmere Discussion) or we can ask a Mod to move the thread. . .

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The 'died but did not' bit is supposed to mean:

Spoiler

that they "died" and became Elantrians (see how all throughout Elantris the Reod Elantrians are referred to as dead due to their hearts not beating and wounds not healing)

 

Also note that during Secret history (SH Ch 5-2 - Elantris Spoilers):

Spoiler

the Reod was still happening (Elantris had not yet been restored):

Quote

The creature that entered seemed . . . well, mostly human. Wizened, dried up, the woman had puckered lips, a bald scalp, and strange silvery-dark skin. She glowed faintly with the same quiet blue-white light as the walls.

Spoiler

Alonoe was clearly suffering from the Reod at this point, so they probably could not go back to Sel's PR at this point because staying in the CR with access to the Dor is probably what allowed them to survive the Reod.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Treamayne
Formatting

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

@Underwater_Worldhopper, @Quantus, @offer - please spoiler tag your posts (this is the Mistborn forum, not Cosmere Discussion) or we can ask a Mod to move the thread. . .

Also note that during Secret history (SH Ch 5-2 - Elantris Spoilers):

  Hide contents

the Reod was still happening (Elantris had not yet been restored):

  Hide contents

Alonoe was clearly suffering from the Reod at this point, so they probably could not go back to Sel's PR at this point because staying in the CR with access to the Dor is probably what allowed them to survive the Reod.

 

Elantris and ToES spoilers:

Spoiler

Fascinating. I had thought that ancient Elantrians just looked really old in the Cognitive Realm and that when they transitioned to the Physical Realm they looked younger- after all, Elantrian immortality is one of if not the most difficult to mantain forms of immortality in the Cosmere, so perhaps their Cognitive Aspect just looks really old when they age enough.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86/#e5685

Questioner (paraphrased)

[Something about whether Elantrians are immortal or long-lived] 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Elantrians have no physical limitations on their lifespan. The power will sustain them, but it's emotionally and mentally exhausting to be an Elantrian, so as far as immortality goes it's actually harder to be an Elantrian than other forms of immortality that exist in the cosmere.

But the idea that they were feeling the effects of the Reod makes a lot of sense. After all, we know that they can still use AonDor, they just can't draw as much Investiture from the CR to make it work- except that they have Dor directly flowing to them in the CR to circumvent that issue.

 

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Spoiler

But the idea that they were feeling the effects of the Reod makes a lot of sense. After all, we know that they can still use AonDor, they just can't draw as much Investiture from the CR to make it work- except that they have Dor directly flowing to them in the CR to circumvent that issue.

 

But also note that they did not use AonDor in Secret History - just Aonic Fabrials

Tress  and SA Spoilers

Spoiler

Also note that both Riino (lighthouse Keeper in Oathbringer) and Riina (The Sorceress in Tress) both appeared youthful again (or at least lacking the wrinkled-dehydrated appearance of the Reod) when they appear post-Reod. 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But also note that they did not use AonDor in Secret History - just Aonic Fabrials

Tress  and SA Spoilers

  Hide contents

Also note that both Riino (lighthouse Keeper in Oathbringer) and Riina (The Sorceress in Tress) both appeared youthful again (or at least lacking the wrinkled-dehydrated appearance of the Reod) when they appear post-Reod. 

 

SA, ToES, and Elantris spoilers:

Spoiler

Riina was in the Physical Realm though- her Physical Aspect is what we saw there- and Riino was seen in the lighthouse hundreds of years after Secret History.

Though, I think you're probably right- the Ire were probably looking the way they did because of the Reod, and I just jumped to my own conclusions and didn't connect the dots.

 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Also note that during Secret history (SH Ch 5-2 - Elantris Spoilers):

Interesting observation, but that's not the case, Elantris spoiler WoBs:

Spoiler

Questioner

Question about Elantris real quick. In your [Arcanum] Unbound[ed], they show up. Is this post or pre Elantris. Because they're so well organized in that one.

Brandon Sanderson

So, that is post Elantris. But, the Ire weathered the [Reod].

Questioner

Oh they come back. And they remember everything.

Brandon Sanderson

They were not on Sel when the [Reod] happened.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

But it did affect them in some way when it was happening, Elantris spoiler WoBs:

Spoiler

Strumienpola (paraphrased)

Did the Reod affect the Ire?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It did in some way.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

mail-mi

Are the Ire old enough to have gone through the Reod?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ire are very, very, very, very old.

Footnote: Brandon adds "very old" again a few moments later.
Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Interesting observation, but that's not the case, Elantris spoiler WoBs:

But it did affect them in some way when it was happening, Elantris spoiler WoBs:

Right but:

Spoiler

Even if the events of SH were post-Reod, you'll notice Sanderson evades if they were affect or restored, or not yet back to 100%. We know:

• The events were post Reod (Elantris was restored)
• Elantris' restoration helped complete the Shaod transformation for Elantrians in the Physical Realm on Sel
• The Ire seen in SH were not on Sel during the Reod.
• The Ire in SH display the lack-of-hair, dull grey skin, and "wizened" wrinkled visage of a Reod Elantrian
  • More specifically, they did not display the glowing silver skin and shining white hair of an unafflicted Elantrian
• The Ire in SH never used AonDor
• That Riina and Riino 

We do not know:

• How the Elantrians who were not in a stuck transformation of the Shaod were affected (other than Riino, who displayed similar characteristics)
• If the Ire had returned to Sel before the events of SH
• If the Ire in SH even knew of Elantris' restoration or the Chasm Line

I postulate that they had not yet returned, did not yet know about the Chasm Line and that they would not be fully restored until they are, at least, in the Shadesmar of Arelon (due to geographic nature of their link to the Dor). 

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Right but:

  Hide contents

Even if the events of SH were post-Reod, you'll notice Sanderson evades if they were affect or restored, or not yet back to 100%. We know:

• The events were post Reod (Elantris was restored)
• Elantris' restoration helped complete the Shaod transformation for Elantrians in the Physical Realm on Sel
• The Ire seen in SH were not on Sel during the Reod.
• The Ire in SH display the lack-of-hair, dull grey skin, and "wizened" wrinkled visage of a Reod Elantrian
  • More specifically, they did not display the glowing silver skin and shining white hair of an unafflicted Elantrian
• The Ire in SH never used AonDor
• That Riina and Riino 

We do not know:

• How the Elantrians who were not in a stuck transformation of the Shaod were affected (other than Riino, who displayed similar characteristics)
• If the Ire had returned to Sel before the events of SH
• If the Ire in SH even knew of Elantris' restoration or the Chasm Line

I postulate that they had not yet returned, did not yet know about the Chasm Line and that they would not be fully restored until they are, at least, in the Shadesmar of Arelon (due to geographic nature of their link to the Dor). 

 

Elantris spoiler:

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

• The events were post Reod (Elantris was restored)
• Elantris' restoration helped complete the Shaod transformation for Elantrians in the Physical Realm on Sel
• The Ire seen in SH were not on Sel during the Reod.

If you need to be in PR for restoration to happen, why did it affect them on CR in the first place? They should be unaffected then, and this is how they looked and acted before Reod as well.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

The Ire in SH display the lack-of-hair, dull grey skin, and "wizened" wrinkled visage of a Reod Elantrian

• More specifically, they did not display the glowing silver skin and shining white hair of an unafflicted Elantrian

The change in appearance of Ire might be because they aren't connected directly to the Dor and have to "drink" it instead. They lack constant supply of Dor nourishing them. Them being in Cognitive Realm, where the Dor is, might mess things up.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

• The Ire in SH never used AonDor

How could you use Aon Dor, which draws from the Dor in CR, when you're in CR? It's like saying you should use your car, which you left in another county. While they could use liquid Dor for it, they didn't need to. When they traveled outside the fortress, they took jars to sustain their lives, and using Aons against Ruin (which they thought they were facing) wouldn't do anything.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

• That Riina and Riino 

Riina was in PR, Rinoo - coppermind: "When Kaladin and the others meet him, he has retained the wrinkled skin and also has the bald head common to Elantrians."

Tress spoilers:

Spoiler

Don't use Riina as an example. That's far in the future, too much weirdness involved. She and Hoid was just drawing Aons and there was nothing like Shai's connection Aon that would connect her to Lumar. Who knows, maybe Dor Ascended back to CR?

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

• How the Elantrians who were not in a stuck transformation of the Shaod were affected (other than Riino, who displayed similar characteristics)

I don't understand? When Reod all existing Elandrians got affected and were stuck mid-transformation - their connection to Dor/land was severed.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

• If the Ire had returned to Sel before the events of SH
• If the Ire in SH even knew of Elantris' restoration or the Chasm Line

They should know, the WoB above said they were affected - they would feel something was messed up.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I postulate that they had not yet returned, did not yet know about the Chasm Line and that they would not be fully restored until they are, at least, in the Shadesmar of Arelon (due to geographic nature of their link to the Dor). 

I understand your line of reasoning, it's a valid conclusion, it is a possible scenario.

But again, if they were changed by Reod when in CR, they should just get changed back after the line was added. If they need to go back to PR to get restored, then they shouldn't be affected and change into Reod state while they were in CR at all. 

 

[Treamayne]

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Elantris spoiler:

  Hide contents

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Elantris' restoration helped complete the Shaod transformation for Elantrians in the Physical Realm on Sel

Quote

If you need to be in PR for restoration to happen, why did it affect them on CR in the first place? They should be unaffected then, and this is how they looked and acted before Reod as well.

I didn't say they needed to be in the Physical Realm - I was listing known facts. We have only seen what the restoration did to Elantrians in the Physical Realm. We have not seen (and I cannot find a WoB that mentions) how Elantrians in the CR were affected by the restoration of Elantris (the WoB only mentions "they survived"). You can assume that they were restored immediately - but we don't know that. It is also possible that the effect only occurred within the borders of Arelon (PR and CR) or only PR, or it may have been as you suggested (or something else entirely).

What you quoted was just my attempt to list known items stripped of assumptions and guesswork.

Quote

But again, if they were changed by Reod when in CR, they should just get changed back after the line was added.

Very possible. Also possible that one or more of them were in Arelon when the Reod happened and escaped the mobs by fleeing to the Perpendicularity (or any number of other scenarios). We don't know enough to definitively answer the questions. I'm just hoping to identify the "oddities" so we can ask and discuss the right questions (like: why does their appearance look the way it does in SH if this is post-Reod?).

 

 

[Heilven he/him]

Spoiler

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

Don't use Riina as an example. That's far in the future, too much weirdness involved. She and Hoid was just drawing Aons and there was nothing like Shai's connection Aon that would connect her to Lumar. Who knows, maybe Dor Ascended back to CR?

I'm pretty sure she did have a connection Aon. The map they were standing on while casting aons was a map of lumar, and it seems very likely that it could be a connection aon. We don't get a lot of description for it, other than the fact that all drawing of aons was done while on the map. She also really doesn't like going away from the map. From the little bit that we get, it all seems to point in that direction. I reread the scene and Tress doesn't describe anything weird about the map, but she was stressed out and confronting an evil witch so I can forgive that 

ToES Spoilers

[alder24]

On 11.05.2023 at 1:30 AM, Treamayne said:

Elantris spoiler:

  Hide contents

Quote

Elantris' restoration helped complete the Shaod transformation for Elantrians in the Physical Realm on Sel

Quote

If you need to be in PR for restoration to happen, why did it affect them on CR in the first place? They should be unaffected then, and this is how they looked and acted before Reod as well.

I didn't say they needed to be in the Physical Realm - I was listing known facts. We have only seen what the restoration did to Elantrians in the Physical Realm. We have not seen (and I cannot find a WoB that mentions) how Elantrians in the CR were affected by the restoration of Elantris (the WoB only mentions "they survived"). You can assume that they were restored immediately - but we don't know that. It is also possible that the effect only occurred within the borders of Arelon (PR and CR) or only PR, or it may have been as you suggested (or something else entirely).

What you quoted was just my attempt to list known items stripped of assumptions and guesswork.

Quote

But again, if they were changed by Reod when in CR, they should just get changed back after the line was added.

Very possible. Also possible that one or more of them were in Arelon when the Reod happened and escaped the mobs by fleeing to the Perpendicularity (or any number of other scenarios). We don't know enough to definitively answer the questions. I'm just hoping to identify the "oddities" so we can ask and discuss the right questions (like: why does their appearance look the way it does in SH if this is post-Reod?).

 

Elantris spoilers:

Spoiler

On 11.05.2023 at 1:30 AM, Treamayne said:

I didn't say they needed to be in the Physical Realm - I was listing known facts. We have only seen what the restoration did to Elantrians in the Physical Realm. We have not seen (and I cannot find a WoB that mentions) how Elantrians in the CR were affected by the restoration of Elantris (the WoB only mentions "they survived"). You can assume that they were restored immediately - but we don't know that. It is also possible that the effect only occurred within the borders of Arelon (PR and CR) or only PR, or it may have been as you suggested (or something else entirely).

What you quoted was just my attempt to list known items stripped of assumptions and guesswork.

I'm expanding on it, trying to find explanations for it - I see 2 options:

• if full transformation after Elantris restoration can be only done in PR, than Reod should not affected those in CR at all
• if full transformation is done both in PR and CR, then the Ire would be back to their original form during the events of SH

On 11.05.2023 at 1:30 AM, Treamayne said:

Very possible. Also possible that one or more of them were in Arelon when the Reod happened and escaped the mobs by fleeing to the Perpendicularity (or any number of other scenarios). We don't know enough to definitively answer the questions. I'm just hoping to identify the "oddities" so we can ask and discuss the right questions (like: why does their appearance look the way it does in SH if this is post-Reod?).

It's possible that they were in Elantris when Reod happened, but it's highly unlikely that all of the Ire were there, as Ire is said to be very, very, very, very old. I doubt they would be in PR at all. 

In the case of their appearance, I'm pretty sure that's because they don't have direct connection to the Dor while they're in CR, which put them in a state of closely resembling Reod, while not being true Reod - they lack constant stream of investiture fueling their body, and their body simply falls back without it. That's why they need jars of Dor, that's why I think they look the way they are.

 

On 11.05.2023 at 6:14 AM, Heilven said:

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure she did have a connection Aon. The map they were standing on while casting aons was a map of lumar, and it seems very likely that it could be a connection aon. We don't get a lot of description for it, other than the fact that all drawing of aons was done while on the map. She also really doesn't like going away from the map. From the little bit that we get, it all seems to point in that direction. I reread the scene and Tress doesn't describe anything weird about the map, but she was stressed out and confronting an evil witch so I can forgive that 

 

TotES spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, the map was of Lumar, but it wasn't glowing! It can't work like Elantris, TLM ch 54: 

Spoiler

Quote

The glow started to fade almost immediately, but she knelt on the ground and began drawing with her finger. She consulted the map, and the notations on it that Marasi showed her. She nodded, and light flooded from her, leaving a traced image on the ground. It looked a little like the map—a quick sketch of the Basin, but with a strange rune at the center.
Once she finished, her light stabilized, then brightened. She sighed insatisfaction again and stood in the center of the circular drawing of light. Only then did she address Marasi.

 

Her map should simply be glowing. While it is possible that this map still functioned like it should without the glow, it made me very suspicious. While Aons were drawn on the map, they were still working with the same strength away from it, and even far away from it in the case of Hoid and Charlie, which again, should be different.

 

Edit: @Treamayne I've found the WoB about Riino:

Spoiler

Blightsong

Was Hoid trying to become an Elantrian kind of in a way how Kelsier was able to connect to Preservation to take up the Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, the thing about it is you're getting Hoid before he knew as much as he did in Scadrial era, so what he was trying to do was completely ineffective and it couldn't have worked.

Questioner #1

Doesn't it get weaker the farther away you are, so it wouldn't help at all.

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm.

Questioner #2

Well we have an example of an Elantrian on Roshar, so.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes we have an Elantrian on Roshar, but we don't see him use any powers, and his skin is dark on Roshar rather than glowing, granted that could be a disguise. That is something to be aware of.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by alder24

[Argenti he/him]

Why are you censoring Elantris spoilers? We're in the cosmere forum

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Why are you censoring Elantris spoilers? We're in the cosmere forum

This topic was moved recently from the Mistborn forum.

[Argenti he/him]

Ah ok