[Theory] Tanavast, Aona, and/or Skai may have been dragons

[Ixthos]

Brandon recently said that of the Shards only Cultivation is a dragon at the moment.

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Vetterlinj

Is there more than 1 dragon amongst the Shards? If so, how many are there?

Brandon Sanderson

Only 1 dragon right now as a Shard.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Only one dragon right now. What about in the past? It seems I'm not the only person who has this theory:

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Pagerunner

There is currently one dragon on Roshar. Before Tanavast died, were there two dragons on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha ha ha, RAFO. Nice try.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Though note this was originally asked a few months before the first question.

 

I'm wondering - could any of the dead vessels have been dragons? It seems odd that only one dragon would be there, or have taken up a Shard as we know Frost was there or involved, as he implies when talking to Hoid in the second letter, talking about the destruction they have caused.

So, could Tanavast, Aona, and/or Skai have been dragons? It would certainly make Rayse more impressive in a way, a human who slew three "dragon-gods", assuming his corpse is indicative of his originally being human. It also makes Tanavast even more noble - he wasn't a human, but he still loved them and died fighting to protect them.

For this I'm assuming that the corpse of a slain Vessel of a Shard is an accurate indication of its original morphology, so Rayse, Ati, and Leras may be dragons, but I'm assuming they aren't.

 

Still, what do you think? It feels strange to me if there was only one dragon at the Shattering that took up a Shard, but do you think its possible? Have a good morning or afternoon or evening or night!

[mathiau]

If we're gonna question whether Tanavast and Rayse were human, we might as well do the same for Rayse and Leras

[Ixthos]

Just now, mathiau said:

If we're gonna question whether Tanavast and Rayse were human, we might as well do the same for Rayse and Leras

I did give my reasons for assuming they aren't. Part of me assumes that shapeshifters in the Cosmere default to their natural forms when they die - the impact of Ati's "puppet with spiders under its skin" seemed to have vanished after he died. As I said in the post, they could be but I'm assuming if we saw the corpse and it was human, then the Vessel was human.

[Anomander Rake]

The epigraph from the chapter after Elend and Preservation have their game of charades only says "a body" and "the corpse", no mention of the word man, human, etc.  A minor thing, but its something that doesnt dismiss the possibility.

IDK what chapters Ati's body is referenced tho.

I do agree with Ixthos though, i think shapeshifters would default to their natural forms after or in death.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Anomander Rake
summitted too early lol

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

I am pretty sure Rayse was human, as his body was indistinguishable from Taravangian's upon death. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 3/12/2022 at 4:29 PM, Anomander Rake said:

The epigraph from the chapter after Elend and Preservation have their game of charades only says "a body" and "the corpse", no mention of the word man, human, etc.  A minor thing, but its something that doesnt dismiss the possibility.

Doesn't say for certain, but "short of stature, black hair, prominent nose" doesn't sound like how Sazed would describe a dragon to a Scadrian. (Could be Sho Del, but given that Kell's first description of him is phrased nearly identically – "short, with black hair and a prominent nose" – it feels to me like Brandon wanted to make clear that the way he appears in SH is indeed what his corpse looked like.)

On 3/12/2022 at 4:29 PM, Anomander Rake said:

IDK what chapters Ati's body is referenced tho.

From a quick search in my ebook, HoA 82:

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Beside her, atop the pile of dead koloss, lay another body. It was that of a man with red hair, one whom Sazed did not recognize, but he ignored it.

Kelsier also immediately recognizes Ati when he enters the Cognitive, so I think it's safe to say his appearance seems to have been his actual appearance too.

On 3/12/2022 at 3:18 PM, Ixthos said:

I'm wondering - could any of the dead vessels have been dragons? It seems odd that only one dragon would be there, or have taken up a Shard as we know Frost was there or involved, as he implies when talking to Hoid in the second letter, talking about the destruction they have caused.

Agreed. Tanavast seems most likely to me, just since we know Koravari's one, but that's just a guess on my part. (Aona and Skai I've got no clue about.)

[Elegy]

I think he means "right now" as in, "as I have it right now", not "right now in the cosmere". His plans - especially regarding the Shards and their vessels - are always in flux so what he has in mind now could be very different once he writes Dragonsteel. Otherwise, the word "as" doesn't make as much sense. What he says seems like an abbreviation of "I have only 1 dragon right now as  Shard" to me, rather than the other way, in which case it would make more sense to write "is" instead of "as".

There's also the question what he would mean with "right now" if he means in-world Cosmere. There only one "right now" in this world, but several "right nows" in the Cosmere. It seems more logical to just say "by the time of Stormlight" or something like that, since he jumps through the Cosmere timeline with every new release.

The Shardcast also interpreted it this way, I think, and didn't mention the other way of reading it, so it seems like it might be the more intuitive way to interpret the sentence.

That said, it's still possible that he meant it that way. It wouldn't be the first weirdly phrased WOB. So it's still possible, but I find it very unlikely given the phrasing 

[Morningtide]

I think that it is very possible that there was more than one dragon who took up a shard. Personally, I think that a shard other than Honor would be the most likely to have a dragon for a vessel, but I don't have any proof for that.

[Kandrafish]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:45 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Doesn't say for certain, but "short of stature, black hair, prominent nose" doesn't sound like how Sazed would describe a dragon to a Scadrian. (Could be Sho Del, but given that Kell's first description of him is phrased nearly identically – "short, with black hair and a prominent nose" – it feels to me like Brandon wanted to make clear that the way he appears in SH is indeed what his corpse looked like.)

I agree. It seems that Leras and Ati are human. I also want to say that I think that Sho Del have white hair.

(Which, as a side note, I will mention, raises some questions for me about Hoid's hair color and eating habits (or lack thereof). I think we have only seen him drink on screen, with the exception of the Traveller short story where he eats a pomegranate.)

On 3/14/2022 at 1:45 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

From a quick search in my ebook, HoA 82:

Kelsier also immediately recognizes Ati when he enters the Cognitive, so I think it's safe to say his appearance seems to have been his actual appearance too.

Agreed. Tanavast seems most likely to me, just since we know Koravari's one, but that's just a guess on my part. (Aona and Skai I've got no clue about.)

I would like to add that Vin seems to be another example of the body that drops being the correct race and appearance.

Looking at linguistics, Skai and Aona sound more like Leras and Ati and Rayse, when compared to Koravellium Avast... Tanavast... Or Tan Avast? Is the one odd man out for the style of name...

I am on the fence about Tanavast, but for the others (Skai, Aona), I think that human seems more likely.

 

[Lego Mistborn]

On 3/12/2022 at 4:18 PM, Ixthos said:

I'm wondering - could any of the dead vessels have been dragons? It seems odd that only one dragon would be there, or have taken up a Shard as we know Frost was there or involved, as he implies when talking to Hoid in the second letter, talking about the destruction they have caused.

Perhaps the dragons that were there decided that taking up a shard would be a bad choice as Hoid did. (since dragons are often depicted as wiser beings)

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, given that Vin's body is recognizable, post-death Vessel bodies must be an accurate representation of their original form.

So Ati, Leras, and Rayse were definitely human.

I do think the intent of the WoB is probably 'as Brandon has it right now, Koravari is the only dragon Vessel, but there are still some Vessels not yet established' rather than 'as of BoM/RoW Koravari is the only current dragon Vessel'.

Dragons might have been less inclined to take up Shards because they're already immortal. The strong Intent compulsion of a Shard might not be worth the power to them - very limited freedom of action might make vast power worth a lot less.

(Assuming they knew about the Intent compulsion beforehand...)

Edited March 23, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[PurpurPhönix]

 

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

The strong Intent compulsion of a Shard might not be worth the power to them - very limited freedom of action might make vast power worth a lot less.

(Assuming they knew about the Intent compulsion beforehand...)

If they even knew that there would be Shards when they shattered Adonalsium. How much would the original vessels have even known would happen after the Shattering? I imagine they thought they would get some power but Shards specifically?

[cometaryorbit]

28 minutes ago, PurpurPhönix said:

 

If they even knew that there would be Shards when they shattered Adonalsium. How much would the original vessels have even known would happen after the Shattering? I imagine they thought they would get some power but Shards specifically?

Yeah, totally unknown. Apparently they knew what the Intents were when they took up Shards (Rayse chose to be Odium) but was Adonalsium Shattered first and then sixteen people took up the Shards, or was Adonalsium Shattered *by* binding it to sixteen people and thus tearing it asunder?

I'm kind of thinking the latter, both from Khriss's description in Secret History and the idea that the Dawnshards were used and one is Change and one is 'known to bind'. Use Change to make Adonalsium changeable, use Bind to bind it to sixteen different people, then use... I don't know, Be or Remain or Exist to stabilize the Shards???

[+Child of Hodor]

On 3/12/2022 at 6:53 PM, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I am pretty sure Rayse was human, as his body was indistinguishable from Taravangian's upon death. 

He probably was, slight chance he was Sho-del, but I doubt it. Nightblood ate up most of his corpse, but he was humanoid and probably human. Before he died he was the Vessel whose appearance I most questioned because he appeared as a Singer on the battlefield at the end of OB.  He showed he was happy to change form to suit his audience.

Side note, it would be very funny if he was a dragon and the little cabin he was in exploded out as his dragon skeleton expanded from where he died.

Szeth thinking "Taravangian was a dragon this whole time?!?!?" as he is thrown 30 feet through the air by the skeleton. 

On 3/12/2022 at 3:28 PM, mathiau said:

If we're gonna question whether Tanavast and Rayse were human, we might as well do the same for Rayse and Leras

Yeah, I think the body that drops is their real body as it was when they ascended. This could mean a dragon in human form at the moment of ascension would would drop as a human, but I would think their real body would drop. 

I assume Tanavast was human because Cultivation liked being in human form and hanging with humans so she fell in love with a human. Would be funny if they were both secretly dragons who like being in human form, they fall in love in human form. Cultivation reveals "Hey I have one little secret, I'm a dragon."  "OMG SAME!" 

Another thought on Yolen dragons that popped in my head back when I read the Dragonsteel prime sample chapters.  Not much is known about Dragons on Yolen or at least by the POVs. It's possible that dragons are not naturally occurring and they are actually originally human or sho-del and some crazy Yolen magic occurrence can change some select few to dragons. Like after transformation they're true form is Dragon a different species, but they were human or Sho-del.  No real support for this just a thought. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Child of Hodor

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, I think the body that drops is their real body as it was when they ascended. This could mean a dragon in human form at the moment of ascension would would drop as a human, but I would think their real body would drop.

This probably depends on the connection they have to their original from, or what they consider their true form. Shapeshifters are weird, though a little less weird in the Cosmere

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 3/12/2022 at 3:28 PM, mathiau said:

If we're gonna question whether Tanavast and Rayse were human, we might as well do the same for Rayse and Leras

I mean, we've seen Rayse, Ati, and Leras's corpses, but we haven't seen Tanavast's, so I don't think that's quite the same situation. (Doesn't mean that Tanavast is a dragon either of course, just means we don't have any particular proof either way [dependent on how you read the WoB], while for the others we do.)

On 3/19/2022 at 10:38 PM, Kandrafish said:

Looking at linguistics, Skai and Aona sound more like Leras and Ati and Rayse, when compared to Koravellium Avast... Tanavast... Or Tan Avast? Is the one odd man out for the style of name...

I am on the fence about Tanavast, but for the others (Skai, Aona), I think that human seems more likely.

Oh good catch, yeah Tanavast's name doesn't really fit. Could be a dragon, could be from another nation (or have ancestors from another nation), either way his name seems to have a different origin from most of the Vessels we know of. ("Edgli" also feels similar to the others to me.)

His name does fit with Bavadin's more, and she's unfortunately definitely not a dragon no matter how "right now" is interpreted, but it doesn't feel quuuite the same to me either.