Roshar's Lost Nuclear Device [Discuss]

[+honorblades]

Hello. Let's talk about Cohesion. 

Cohesion is the surge of inter-axial connection. 

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This ability manipulates the Surge of Cohesion, and is in many ways a cousin to the axial manipulation known as microkinesis-- as both grant the ability to manipulate the forces that bind individual axi together. Fortunately, in my explorations, it appears that Stoneshaping is far less ... explosive of a power, bounded by the rules that Honor placed upon it to protect from the mistakes that happened on Yolen.

(1, 2)

 

Hoid, who has been to Yolen, talking to Jasnah about the terrible destructive power of the Surges in war:

Quote

 

"You think your powers are unfair because you slay dozens, and they cannot resist? What happens when a single individual can kill tens of thousands in moments-- assuming the enemy will kindly bunch up in a neat little pike block. Things will change rapidly when such powers become common."

"They're hardly common."

"I didn’t say they were," he said. "Yet." 

 

(3)

 

Although the two quotes above seem distinct and separate, I believe they are related. I think this strongly implies that microkinesis couldn’t only move and change axi - it could split them. Khriss implies that Cohesion could do this too, if Honor hadn't put some protections in place. 

Don't worry though. Right now, Cohesion is limited to a select few; Willshapers, Stonewards, and Makay-im. Thankfully, though Honor isn't around to enforce his rules any longer, it seems the Surges are still bound. Stoneshapers can do many things, but splitting atoms isn't among them. 

The Makay-im, or Deepest Ones, are the brand of Fused that can use Cohesion. Though they have a very fine control over their single Surge, they too are bound by the rules set in place by Honor. (1)

 

However.  

 

Ishar shows that with an Honorblade, one can do things previously thought impossible. Honor's limitations apparently do not apply as strongly or at all to those who wield an Honorblade now that he is not around to keep them in check. 

 

Quote

 

Ishar stood and slammed his fists together. A perpendicularity opened, as it had before, releasing a powerful explosion of light. 

Impossible . . . the Stormfather said in Dalinar's mind. I didn't feel it happen. How does he do this?

 

(4)

So, to summarize: unbound Cohesion can be incredibly destructive, but is made safe by the fact that the Surges are still bound by Honor's limitations. Luckily, there's only two sources for unbound Cohesion on Roshar. One of them is in the hands of the Shin. The other, well . . .

 

Good thing we know where Taln's Honorblade is, huh? 
 

 

 

Sources:
1. Rhythm of War, Chapter 31

2. Rhythm of War, Ars Arcanum 

3. Rhythm of War, Chapter 64

4. Rhythm of War, Chapter 111

 

[Pathfinder]

We also know that if a radiant soulcaster knew what plutonium is, and understood it enough to convey that to their spren, they could soulcast it. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

59 minutes ago, honorblades said:

I think this strongly implies that microkinesis couldn’t only move and change axi - it could split them.

Yeah, WoB is that microkinesis apparently sometimes led to accidental nuclear fission reactions, which is..... "fun".

57 minutes ago, honorblades said:

Thankfully, though Honor isn't around to enforce his rules any longer, it seems the Surges are still bound. Stoneshapers can do many things, but splitting atoms isn't among them. 

Which is sorta weird, because the restrictions seem to have gone away for all the Bondsmiths even before he died (Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and did things previously forbidden, so it's not just Stormfather weirdness). I'm curious whether the restrictions truly are still there on Cohesion, or if Khriss just found a record that mentioned it and didn't realize that this had changed.

1 hour ago, honorblades said:

Though they have a very fine control over their single Surge, they too are bound by the rules set in place by Honor. (1)

I don't see where the referenced chapter confirms the Fused are also bound, do you know more specifically what it said?

1 hour ago, honorblades said:

Ishar shows that with an Honorblade, one can do things previously thought impossible. Honor's limitations apparently do not apply as strongly or at all to those who wield an Honorblade now that he is not around to keep them in check. 

Dalinar and Melishi seem to imply that Bondsmiths in general are now unchained, not just the Honorblades.

[+honorblades]

50 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, WoB is that microkinesis apparently sometimes led to accidental nuclear fission reactions, which is..... "fun".

Crazy to me that there might be people out there who have some sort of broken version of microkinesis.. like how Hoid's Yolish lightweaving doesn't work they way it used to anymore. 

 

50 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't see where the referenced chapter confirms the Fused are also bound, do you know more specifically what it said?

"Yes, the Surges are bound by Honor. Yet as you can see, his death did not change the world in any appreciable manner." pg. 419 RoW Hardcover 

The full context is too long, but they are talking about how the Surges that Fused and Radiants use are the same, but utilized in different ways.

I think Raboniel is actually wrong here. Either Honor's death unbound the Surges and no one realizes it yet, or the Surges are only bound for certain people and not if you use specific other methods. But regardless, what she is saying is that however the Fused access the Surges, at least to Raboniel's knowledge, they are playing by the same rules as the Radiants. 

 

50 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Which is sorta weird, because the restrictions seem to have gone away for all the Bondsmiths even before he died (Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and did things previously forbidden, so it's not just Stormfather weirdness). I'm curious whether the restrictions truly are still there on Cohesion, or if Khriss just found a record that mentioned it and didn't realize that this had changed.

It seems to me that Honor choose the Heralds deliberately or through some sort of trial, and also intended to stick around as a check on their power. However, once he died, that is obviously no longer possible. 

Similarly, the Radiants were a surprise to Honor. I imagine the Bondsmiths were an even bigger surprise, and I think you might be right: they were limited by the Oaths, like all other Radiants, but ... It's almost like Bondsmiths have admin privileges on the Nahel bond. There are rules, but they don't have to follow them. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by honorblades

[Eternal Khol]

11 minutes ago, honorblades said:

Crazy to me that there might be people out there who have some sort of broken version of microkinesis.. like how Hoid's Yolish lightweaving doesn't work they way it used to anymore. 

Its a old WoB, but Brandon stated that Microkinesis no longer functions after the Shattering.

[+honorblades]

1 minute ago, Eternal Khol said:

Its a old WoB, but Brandon stated that Microkinesis no longer functions after the Shattering.

Super lame but at the same time microkinesis seems incredibly OP. It's probably for the best 

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, honorblades said:

"Yes, the Surges are bound by Honor. Yet as you can see, his death did not change the world in any appreciable manner." pg. 419 RoW Hardcover 

The full context is too long, but they are talking about how the Surges that Fused and Radiants use are the same, but utilized in different ways.

I think Raboniel is actually wrong here. Either Honor's death unbound the Surges and no one realizes it yet, or the Surges are only bound for certain people and not if you use specific other methods.

I don't think Raboniel is using "bound" in the same sense - this is Fused philosophy that Cultivation made the Surges and Honor bound them into natural law ... thus Adhesion isn't a real Surge because it's all Honor no Cultivation. Since Adhesion definitely is a Surge, I don't think Raboniel is reliable here -- this is Odium influenced downplaying of Honor's importance.

(Raboniel also goes on in the same conversation about how Radiants *totally aren't really more powerful than the Fused* even though they get two powers plus resonance and the Fused only get one. Suuuuure Raboniel, whatever you say....)

[Trusk'our]

2 hours ago, honorblades said:

Super lame but at the same time microkinesis seems incredibly OP. It's probably for the best 

Hoid's own Yolish version of Lightweaving seems to also be "broken", but he fixed it by gaining access to the Rosharan varient. 

Could it be that Microkinesis could also be fixed if once were to gain access to it's Rosharan varient?

[+honorblades]

58 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Could it be that Microkinesis could also be fixed if once were to gain access to it's Rosharan varient?

Very interesting thought that I did consider while writing this post. It seems to me that some Yolish magics have direct correlations (Lightweaving -> Lightweaving) while others got split up. Microkinesis based on my limited knowledge seems to be a combo of Cohesion and Transformation. Perhaps you'd need both? Or maybe even one or the other? 

 

Separately, here's an interesting WoB on that very topic... 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Could a Lightweaver make a black hole by compressing light?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Beyond the power level of the average Lightweaver

Hoid does like playing with fire. He should not be a Lightweaver. He is too close to various things that happened with Dawnshards. He should not be a Lightweaver, he is playing with fire.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Hoid should not be a Rosharan and Yolish Lightweaver, as it's getting close to something related to Dawnshards.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by honorblades

[Frustration]

Add this to the growing list of reasons for why Scadrial is toast.

[Milk]

8 hours ago, honorblades said:

Good thing we know where Taln's Honorblade is, huh?

We don't, though? A non-Hoid figure took it, and there's currently no info about their identity.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 hours ago, honorblades said:

Crazy to me that there might be people out there who have some sort of broken version of microkinesis.. like how Hoid's Yolish lightweaving doesn't work they way it used to anymore. 

Oh jeez. That's scary.

6 hours ago, honorblades said:

"Yes, the Surges are bound by Honor. Yet as you can see, his death did not change the world in any appreciable manner." pg. 419 RoW Hardcover 

Ah, that quote. I took it to be more referring to how they think Honor "make the Surge into natural law" like cometaryorbit mentions, but that could be it as well, yeah.

6 hours ago, honorblades said:

Similarly, the Radiants were a surprise to Honor. I imagine the Bondsmiths were an even bigger surprise, and I think you might be right: they were limited by the Oaths, like all other Radiants, but ... It's almost like Bondsmiths have admin privileges on the Nahel bond. There are rules, but they don't have to follow them. 

Hm, could be. I mostly just took the claim that Cohesion is bound as knowledge being out-of-date and it being another example of rules from past Desolations not applying, but Bondsmiths are pretty weird so who knows.

6 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

Its a old WoB, but Brandon stated that Microkinesis no longer functions after the Shattering.

I can't find him saying that, do you have the link offhand?

[Olmund]

7 hours ago, Milk said:

We don't, though? A non-Hoid figure took it, and there's currently no info about their identity.

Yeah, that's the point -- the title of this thread is "Roshar's Lost Nuclear Device," referring to Taln's shardblade. The TC was going for a tongue-in-cheek line at the end.

[Milk]

Just now, Olmund said:

Yeah, that's the point -- the title of this thread is "Roshar's Lost Nuclear Device," referring to Taln's shardblade. The TC was going for a tongue-in-cheek line at the end.

Oh, I see. That makes more sense!

[Honorless]

It could be possible that Honor fundamentally altered how the other Surges functioned but with the Bondsmith Surges, he didn't change how the Surges functioned, just suppressed them. So, with him gone, or even before that, with him gone cuckoo, Bondsmiths started to be able to access the full potential of their Surges, but the other Surges would remain the same, because they weren't being regulated but were actually fundamentally changed.

[Quantus]

The Radiant Bondsmiths are still bound as they always were: By their own spren.  They might be convinced to approve actions that Honor wouldn't like, now that he cant voice an opinion, but as the bond-holder they'd be the arbiter, just like the other radiants; it's why Syl was similarly disturbed by Jezrien's Honorblade.  Ishar's Honorblade is different from the radiant Bondsmiths in that Honor was playing the role of that restraining Intelligence himself for all the Heralds, but now there is no other being involved to restrain whomever holds that Blade.  I suspect the Sibling withdrew because Melishi talked them into the Parshman action whatever it actually was, and regretted it afterward (and/or blamed the Humans for convincing them to go along with it). 

 

EDIT:

So if we thought Microkinesis was OP before, apparently it allowed direct Spiritweb manipulation.  In theory and at their upper limits of realmic understanding, a Bondsmith only might be able to do that...  

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the.fulgid

It seems to be more apparent that different abilities are granted depending on the design of one's Spiritweb. Is the design of a Spiritweb, and the abilities it grants, limited to a specific Shardworld or are the designs universal across the cosmere? For example could someone from Roshar go to Scadrial and have Hemalurgy done on them and have it work?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah, some of the magics are more regionally-locked than others. Hemalurgy will work on any planet. But, for instance, you'll notice that Elantrians have trouble even going to the next nation over. There's a specific reason for that. Most of the magics transcend location.

the.fulgid

My question, in regards to Dragonsteel, is: Is there a possibility that somebody with the ability of microkinesis can see the spiritweb and alter it according to their will?

Brandon Sanderson

This is, this is totally possible. But you have to remember this is pre-Shattering of Adonalsium. Dragonsteel is the story of the Shattering of Adonalsium... the whole book is before, the whole series... So there are lots of things going on there that are-- like you will-- yeah. But it’s not canon yet.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Quantus

[animalia]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:41 PM, Trusk'our said:

Hoid's own Yolish version of Lightweaving seems to also be "broken", but he fixed it by gaining access to the Rosharan varient. 

Could it be that Microkinesis could also be fixed if once were to gain access to it's Rosharan varient?

Or some other variant

[CryoZenith]

On 06.01.2022 at 1:38 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Which is sorta weird, because the restrictions seem to have gone away for all the Bondsmiths even before he died (Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and did things previously forbidden, so it's not just Stormfather weirdness). I'm curious whether the restrictions truly are still there on Cohesion, or if Khriss just found a record that mentioned it and didn't realize that this had changed.

There's that WoB about how the death of a shard or its vessel is a gradual and protracted process so.