Steel Inquisitors as constructs

[cometaryorbit]

What makes a Steel Inquisitor a "Hemalurgic construct" as opposed to just "a person with spikes"? We see people with Allomancy/Feruchemy granting spikes in both HoA and BoM without their being Inquisitors.

Is it just an in-world classification to distance the Inquisitors from regular humans?

Is the dividing line between "person with spikes" and "Steel Inquisitor" having a linchpin spike, and if so, what determines the need for a linchpin?

And what changes do Inquisitors get/suffer other than their actual given powers, if they are genuinely Hemalurgic constructs?

[Frustration]

As far as I know it's just "Brandon said so"

[Quantus]

38 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

What makes a Steel Inquisitor a "Hemalurgic construct" as opposed to just "a person with spikes"? We see people with Allomancy/Feruchemy granting spikes in both HoA and BoM without their being Inquisitors.

Is it just an in-world classification to distance the Inquisitors from regular humans?

Is the dividing line between "person with spikes" and "Steel Inquisitor" having a linchpin spike, and if so, what determines the need for a linchpin?

And what changes do Inquisitors get/suffer other than their actual given powers, if they are genuinely Hemalurgic constructs?

It's an in-world thing I'd say, grouped since each of the known ones were design projects by the Lord Ruler Himself. You hit on the only thing I see as the common trait that makes an Inquisitor a separate state of being or species: they cannot survive without lynchpin spike.  But that's a fairly weak line I think, especially when compared to Kandra or especially the now breeding Koloss race.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Ookla the Ingeniator

[+Oltux72]

44 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

What makes a Steel Inquisitor a "Hemalurgic construct" as opposed to just "a person with spikes"? We see people with Allomancy/Feruchemy granting spikes in both HoA and BoM without their being Inquisitors.

A change of your organism due to hemalurgy. Normal humans suffering a piece of metal rammed through their head die.

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

A change of your organism due to hemalurgy. Normal humans suffering a piece of metal rammed through their head die.

Well that would make anyone using hemalurgy a construct.

 

A possible use is going by the number of spikes and 4 or more is considered a construct

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

A change of your organism due to hemalurgy. Normal humans suffering a piece of metal rammed through their head die.

Hmm so under that theory it's the spikes being in normally-vital locations, not the number of spikes?

I had thought the "not dying due to spike in brain" aspect was just how the magic worked, similar to Iron Feruchemy not crushing the Feruchemist to death at 100x weight, but that's quite possible.

 

46 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Well that would make anyone using hemalurgy a construct.

 

A possible use is going by the number of spikes and 4 or more is considered a construct

Kandra only have 2... but they don't start as default humans...

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Well that would make anyone using hemalurgy a construct.

No. People have lived with shell fragments or bullets lodged in their bodies for decades. The number of ear rings worn at any time may be in the billions.
They do not rearrange organs, in this case their brain. Though, yes, we will have to add some people to the list. Zane would count.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

A possible use is going by the number of spikes and 4 or more is considered a construct

A chimera has one spike.

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm so under that theory it's the spikes being in normally-vital locations, not the number of spikes?

Chimeras would have to count as constructs. I would say the definition is a change of physiology beyond what is possible in the recipient species.

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I had thought the "not dying due to spike in brain" aspect was just how the magic worked, similar to Iron Feruchemy not crushing the Feruchemist to death at 100x weight, but that's quite possible.

Well, but how can anything that hemalurgy does not be how the magic works?

[Honorless]

The classifications of Hemalurgist and Hemalurgic Construct probably has to with how much the Hemalurgy changes the organism. Just having stolen Invested Arts might make you a Hemalurgist but fundamentally  altering your Spiritweb and biology makes you a construct.

Perhaps whether or not the being can survive if the Hemalurgic spikes were taken out determines whether they're more accurately described as a Hemalurgist or a Hemalurgic construct.

Could also be a matter of intent. Did you yourself steal some attributes? Then you're a Hemalurgist. Did somebody spike you to turn you into something else? Then you're a construct.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Honorless

[StanLemon]

I have a pet theory that there is more to Steel Inquisitors than just gaining a bunch of powers.

For starters they typically have longer live spans

Quote

Chaos (paraphrased)

How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while.

And due to Hemalurgic decay, Inquisitors should be weaker than a Mistborn in most metals unless they themselves were Mistborn beforehand. The evidence from the books doesn't suggest this. Unless Bendal and the random Inquisitor that Ironpulled the candelabra in Vin's hands in the first book were both Mistborn prior to becoming Inquisitors, they were far more powerful than Hemalurgy should have made them. Additionally, in the beginning of Hero of Ages, despite Vin being the most skilled Mistborn ever and Elend having the power of Lerasium and them having killed multiple Inquisitors before by that point they both still consider fighting an Inquisitor to be a deadly and dangerous fight. 

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I have a pet theory that there is more to Steel Inquisitors than just gaining a bunch of powers.

For starters they typically have longer live spans

And due to Hemalurgic decay, Inquisitors should be weaker than a Mistborn in most metals unless they themselves were Mistborn beforehand. The evidence from the books doesn't suggest this. Unless Bendal and the random Inquisitor that Ironpulled the candelabra in Vin's hands in the first book were both Mistborn prior to becoming Inquisitors, they were far more powerful than Hemalurgy should have made them. Additionally, in the beginning of Hero of Ages, despite Vin being the most skilled Mistborn ever and Elend having the power of Lerasium and them having killed multiple Inquisitors before by that point they both still consider fighting an Inquisitor to be a deadly and dangerous fight. 

They could have been lurchers before hand.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

They could have been lurchers before hand.

That feels like reaching. Facts as present, Brandon calls them a construct meaning there is more to them than just gaining powers. Most Inquisitors were made from Seekers, admittedly it doesn't stop others from becoming Inquisitors but it does mean that the likelihood of any Inquisitors that the protagonists met were Seekers beforehand. Bendal completely overpowered Kelsier in raw muscle strength. Vin described the Inquisitor Ironpulling the candelabra as far stronger Ironpull than Kelsier. Kar's comments about Inquisitor resting implies more than just refilling Goldminds. Brandon comments that they can burn themselves out. They age slower if they aren't burning themselves out. Vin and Elend, two incredibly powerful Mistborn consider fighting Inquisitors dangerous two against one, which doesn't make any sense if Inquisitors are weaker than Mistborn unless every single one they fought before was a Mistborn. 

Sure, it's possible that Bendal was a Mistborn or Pewterarm and that the random one Vin came across was a Lurcher or Mistborn as well, but a simpler solution to explain Inquisitor power would be that some aspect of their construction boosts their Allomantic power. My guess is it's related to their need to rest and Brandon's comments of burning themselves out.

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

That feels like reaching. Facts as present, Brandon calls them a construct meaning there is more to them than just gaining powers. Most Inquisitors were made from Seekers, admittedly it doesn't stop others from becoming Inquisitors but it does mean that the likelihood of any Inquisitors that the protagonists met were Seekers beforehand. Bendal completely overpowered Kelsier in raw muscle strength. Vin described the Inquisitor Ironpulling the candelabra as far stronger Ironpull than Kelsier. Kar's comments about Inquisitor resting implies more than just refilling Goldminds. Brandon comments that they can burn themselves out. They age slower if they aren't burning themselves out. Vin and Elend, two incredibly powerful Mistborn consider fighting Inquisitors dangerous two against one, which doesn't make any sense if Inquisitors are weaker than Mistborn unless every single one they fought before was a Mistborn. 

Sure, it's possible that Bendal was a Mistborn or Pewterarm and that the random one Vin came across was a Lurcher or Mistborn as well, but a simpler solution to explain Inquisitor power would be that some aspect of their construction boosts their Allomantic power. My guess is it's related to their need to rest and Brandon's comments of burning themselves out.

The inquisitors Vin and Elend fought used feruchemy, as well as compounding.

[StanLemon]

24 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

The inquisitors Vin and Elend fought used feruchemy, as well as compounding.

Not quite true, only the very last one had Feruchemy and none presented compounding.

Edited December 15, 2021 by StanLemon

[NameIess]

11 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Not quite true, only the very last one had Feruchemy and none presented compounding.

Bendal almost certainly had F-pewter, and by Hero of Ages, all or most of the inquisitors had feruchemy. The first one that Vin and Elend fought had F-steel, and I believe the others had feruchemy as well. As for compounding, I guess we never saw anyone go all bands of mourning, so I suppose it is possible that they didn't know about it. Seems strange that Ruin wouldn't tell them about it though.

[Anomander Rake]

Quote

Axies (paraphrased)

Is Hoid human?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes... but. Hoid is... you can say that he is still human, but his DNA have changed. Now he is human but you wouldn't call him Homo sapiens anymore. It happens something similar with the Steel Inquisitors

Barcelona signing (Nov. 3, 2016)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty

The Creation of New Inquisitors

It was very convenient for the system I built into Hemalurgy that the Inquisitors were designed and commanded to hunt down skaa Mistings. There were always enough of those that they could create new Inquisitors to replace the ones who eventually died of old age.

The Inquisitors were always so determined to catch the skaa. So passionate. With good reason, for that was the only means by which their race—and Inquisitors are a separate race, just like the koloss and the kandra—could perpetuate itself.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 19, 2009)

I think "Hemalurgic Construct" is just a catch all term for anything that has had its spiritweb altered enough to change its DNA, and thus its species identity (not cosmere identity! just its classification lol).  We know that close proximity to investiture warps things over time - personality, time, etc - and it seems that the addition of investiture to the spiritweb and sDNA, via a Dawnshard, spike, or any other way, will similarly over time change that web.  We see this pretty often, actually - savantism in both allomancy and soulcasting brings about physical changes to a person; tin magnifies senses, pewter dulls nerves, soulcasting changes the composition of your body.

Quote

Questioner

Can Odium pick up pieces of a Shard without changing the nature of his Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Any investiture, over time, will slowly change one’s personality, no matter how small that investiture.

Salt Lake City signing 2012 (Nov. 6, 2012)

The inquisitors certainly aren't human.  They have unique abilities we havent seen in any other creature (spike vision), and are confirmed to have a different base lifespan and physiology.  But they are close to human.  They can still mate with regular humans and produce offspring, though with potential complications.  It kinda reminds me of horses and donkeys; they are two distinct species, yet they have very obvious similarities, and can mate and produce viable offspring, with a catch.  I think this is a valid line of thought, as different investiture-altered creatures can also (reportedly in some cases) reproduce, like Koloss and heralds.  

[StanLemon]

24 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Bendal almost certainly had F-pewter,

Bendal's muscles are never described as growing

24 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

and by Hero of Ages, all or most of the inquisitors had feruchemy.

Key words there "by Hero of Ages"

24 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

The first one that Vin and Elend fought had F-steel, and I believe the others had feruchemy as well.

They had been fighting Inquisitor's for months before that. They explicitly say that this is the first one to have a Spike that isn't Steel or Brass. So none of the ones they faced before had ANY Feruchemy. Yet they still treat the fight as dangerous with two very powerful Mistborn against a single Inquisitor. Which again makes no sense if Inquisitors are weaker than Mistborn

24 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

As for compounding, I guess we never saw anyone go all bands of mourning, so I suppose it is possible that they didn't know about it. Seems strange that Ruin wouldn't tell them about it though.

I doubt Ruin would have even cared to. Marsh, his most prized Inquisitor with the most Spikes, had the most Feruchemy never demonstrated large amounts of any trait. Which would be odd that Ruin wouldn't give him Gold Allomancy if he went through all the effort that he had gone through already. Marsh outright thinks to himself that he has to conserve Health in his Goldmind so he clearly couldn't compound Gold during Hero of Ages. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

They had been fighting Inquisitor's for months before that. They explicitly say that this is the first one to have a Spike that isn't Steel or Brass. So none of the ones they faced before had ANY Feruchemy. Yet they still treat the fight as dangerous with two very powerful Mistborn against a single Inquisitor. Which again makes no sense if Inquisitors are weaker than Mistborn

All Inquisitors have at least two steel spikes, which makes them stronger than any mistborn would be.

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Bendal's muscles are never described as growing

Storing A-Pewter's strength would keep your muscles from swelling when you tapped it.

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

They had been fighting Inquisitor's for months before that. They explicitly say that this is the first one to have a Spike that isn't Steel or Brass. So none of the ones they faced before had ANY Feruchemy. Yet they still treat the fight as dangerous with two very powerful Mistborn against a single Inquisitor. Which again makes no sense if Inquisitors are weaker than Mistborn

Marsh healed quickly in Final Empire. Vin and Elend don't explicitly say that the inquisitor was the first to have a pewter spike, but that it was the first to have an eleventh spike. TLR almost certainly didn't give all of his inquisitors A-gold, and not all of them had A-atium, so that leaves two spikes in a standard ten spike setup that can be used for feruchemy.

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

All Inquisitors have at least two steel spikes, which makes them stronger than any mistborn would be.

All Inquisitors have 4 Steel Spikes, each with a different Physical Allomantic ability. If they started out as a Seeker they would be weaker in Tin, Pewter, Iron, and Steel than any Mistborn unless they are getting some additional boost.

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Storing A-Pewter's strength would keep your muscles from swelling when you tapped it.

We don't know that as a fact. 

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Marsh healed quickly in Final Empire. Vin and Elend don't explicitly say that the inquisitor was the first to have a pewter spike, but that it was the first to have an eleventh spike. TLR almost certainly didn't give all of his inquisitors A-gold, and not all of them had A-atium, so that leaves two spikes in a standard ten spike setup that can be used for feruchemy.

In fact, in Hero of Ages here is the scene. The standard was in fact 9 Spikes and Elend is clearly both surprised at a 10th Spike and that it is Pewter and not the usual Brass and Steel.

Quote

Elend glanced back. The Inquisitor had the standard spikes—three pounded between the ribs on each side of the chest. But . . . there was another one—one Elend hadn’t seen in any other Inquisitor corpse—pounded directly through the front of this creature’s chest.

Lord Ruler! Elend thought. That one would have gone right through its heart. How did it survive? Of course, if two spikes through the brain didn’t kill it, then one through the heart probably wouldn’t either.

Vin reached down and yanked the spike free. Elend winced. She held it up, frowning. “Pewter,” she said.

“Really?” Elend asked.

She nodded. “That makes ten spikes. Two through the eyes and one through the shoulders: all steel. Six through the ribs: two steel, four bronze. Now this, a pewter one—not to mention the one he tried to use on you, which appears to be steel.”

 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

All Inquisitors have 4 Steel Spikes, each with a different Physical Allomantic ability. If they started out as a Seeker they would be weaker in Tin, Pewter, Iron, and Steel than any Mistborn unless they are getting some additional boost.

Five steel spikes actually but two that grant A-steel

[StanLemon]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Five steel spikes actually but two that grant A-steel

Reference to the double A-Steel?

Edit: Also one of those 5 is busy being the linchpin Spike, maybe it gives power, maybe it doesn't

Edited December 15, 2021 by StanLemon

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

In fact, in Hero of Ages here is the scene. The standard was in fact 9 Spikes and Elend is clearly both surprised at a 10th Spike and that it is Pewter and not the usual Brass and Steel.

Inquisitors, at least most of them, had access to a healing spike:

Quote

17th Shard

Very careful roleplayers have counted the numbers of Inquisitors appearing in the novels and they claim there must have been 25 if Vin and Elend killed two Inquisitors between Mistborn 2 and Mistborn 3. Could you clarify the numbers of Inquisitors there were? They've literally counted.

Brandon Sanderson

They literally, yeah…No, I mean, I've got it written down somewhere. I'm now so separated from this book. I had always imagined there being around three dozen Inquisitors at any given time.

17th Shard

Oh, okay, so quite a bit more than 20.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. Well the thing you've gotta remember is that, with the powers they're given, they're pretty much immune to disease and things like that, particularly after they've gained their healing spike.

17th Shard

Right. Is that common to all Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

It does not come to all. It comes to almost all. That's a pretty common one, but being an Inquisitor does not mean you get it. I think it mentions in the books that there's one spike that they all get, but I can't remember what it is.

17th Shard

I would imagine that would…well, okay, a steel spike so they could see.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. Yeah, obvious, but the thing is you've gotta have a Keeper to be able give a healing spike. The ones alive now pretty much all have healing spikes, but there were times throughout history when he needed a new Inquisitor and he didn't have a Keeper (a Feruchemist) handy. He could make an Inquisitor without that. That is not what's keeping them alive from the spikes being driven through their bodies.

17th Shard

So the linchpin spike is not always the same type of spike.

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't have to be. The linchpin spike is just, when you're putting that many spikes together into somebody it needs a spike to coordinate them all. That is part of what's holding their body together from all of this damage, and it doesn't have to be the healing spike. The nature of Feruchemy is separate from that, if that makes any sense. For instance, you could put a few spikes into an Inquisitor without a linchpin spike, and they wouldn't die.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

F-gold is easily enough to make Vin and Elend see inquisitors as highly dangerous opponents. in addition, it makes sense that TLR would give them an f-gold spike, as he could easily justify not giving them access to A-gold, and thus keep them from compounding without raising suspicion. Bendal's higher strength could come from either feruchemy, multiple A-pewter spikes, him being a pewterarm or mistborn before becoming an inquisitor, or from the spike being taken from a pewterarm or mistborn that was stronger than Kelsier. 

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Reference to the double A-Steel?

Edit: Also one of those 5 is busy being the linchpin Spike, maybe it gives power, maybe it doesn't

Well not all of them would have it, but you have another spike for Physical metals why would you not go for steel?

[StanLemon]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Inquisitors, at least most of them, had access to a healing spike:

Books outrank WoB unless he is explicitly retconning. So none of the ones they fought between WoA and HoA had F-Gold

Quote

F-gold is easily enough to make Vin and Elend see inquisitors as highly dangerous opponents. in addition, it makes sense that TLR would give them an f-gold spike, as he could easily justify not giving them access to A-gold, and thus keep them from compounding without raising suspicion. Bendal's higher strength could come from either feruchemy, multiple A-pewter spikes, him being a pewterarm or mistborn before becoming an inquisitor, or from the spike being taken from a pewterarm or mistborn that was stronger than Kelsier. 

He demonstrated no muscle mass growth, so not F-Pewter. While having been a Mistborn or Pewterarm or double A-Pewter are technically possible, it starts stretching suspension of disbelief to have every time that an Inquisitor being stronger is because they just happen to have the appropriate combination to overpower a Mistborn. I highly doubt the last option you said is likely in any scenario. Kelsier was already a pretty strong Mistborn (Vin thought he was stronger than her, while not quite accurate to the truth it shows he must have been pretty strong himself), so a Spike being taken from someone stronger and decay weaker than him is unlikely. That scenario becomes even more unlikely if you try including that with the Inquisitor that Lurched the candelabra out Vin's grip.

 

[NameIess]

11 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Books outrank WoB unless he is explicitly retconning. So none of the ones they fought between WoA and HoA had F-Gold

WoB's clarify books, and the books leave it unclear as to whether inquisitors had feruchemy. In fact, considering that Vin thought the only way to kill an inquisitor was to crush their head, I would say that it is almost certain that they did have F-gold.