Hoid vs Kelsier

[Trusk'our]

In mistborn Secret History, Hoid pretty easily beats up Kelsier, but Kelsier didn't have access to his allomantic powers, and he didn't have the experience that he does now. Not only that, but Kelsier is almost certainly a fullborn now, as he created the Bands of Mourning. 

So if they faced off again, who would win?

[Frustration]

Hoid, not even close.

[+Invocation]

Provided whatever influence is keeping Hoid from hurting actual people isn't an issue, the fight would end in about half a second in his favor. If he can't harm Kelsier at all, the fight probably ends whenever one of them gets tired of getting injured and healing (on Hoid's part) or trying to kill someone only to have them laugh off everything you can do (on Kelsier's part). Even in the second scenario, I think Hoid would probably win. Centuries of determination about being the most annoying person in the room would pay dividends. 

[Trusk'our]

11 hours ago, Invocation said:

Provided whatever influence is keeping Hoid from hurting actual people isn't an issue, the fight would end in about half a second in his favor. If he can't harm Kelsier at all, the fight probably ends whenever one of them gets tired of getting injured and healing (on Hoid's part) or trying to kill someone only to have them laugh off everything you can do (on Kelsier's part). Even in the second scenario, I think Hoid would probably win. Centuries of determination about being the most annoying person in the room would pay dividends. 

I think you're probably right.

Unless, of course, Kelsier starts throwing hemalurgy into the mix and ripping away Hoid's powers

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Unless, of course, Kelsier starts throwing hemalurgy into the mix and ripping away Hoid's powers

Considering Hoid can just heal his powers back that won't do anything.

[Trusk'our]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Considering Hoid can just heal his powers back that won't do anything.

What about his cryptic bond? And it doesn't necessarily need to permanently disable Hoid; Kelsier could use stolen powers to boost himself, so long as he's careful. 

[Frustration]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

What about his cryptic bond? And it doesn't necessarily need to permanently disable Hoid; Kelsier could use stolen powers to boost himself, so long as he's careful. 

The spren can just break that and then reform it with Hoid.

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

Kelsier could use stolen powers to boost himself, so long as he's careful. 

It won't matter Nothing short of nightblood has a chance against Hoid, and the more hemalurgy he uses the more he opens himself up to Hoid.

[Trusk'our]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

The spren can just break that and then reform it with Hoid.

It won't matter Nothing short of nightblood has a chance against Hoid, and the more hemalurgy he uses the more he opens himself up to Hoid.

He could spike the cryptic itself.

However, you are probably right; as powerful as Kelsier is, he's not likely beat Hoid, rigged match or not.

[Quantus]

Question that has been haunting me:  CAN Hoid use Feruchemy?  Assuming he's had the chance I mean, Can he Ruin himself enough to fill a metalmind in the traditional way, or at least some of the physical ones?  Can he make himself sick, weak, blind, etc?  I assume he'd never be able to use Hemalurgy by it's nature, is there enough Innate Ruinous harm happening in Feruchemy that he'd be barred from using it on himself.  

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Question that has been haunting me:  CAN Hoid use Feruchemy?  Assuming he's had the chance I mean, Can he Ruin himself enough to fill a metalmind in the traditional way, or at least some of the physical ones?  Can he make himself sick, weak, blind, etc?  I assume he'd never be able to use Hemalurgy by it's nature, is there enough Innate Ruinous harm happening in Feruchemy that he'd be barred from using it on himself.  

assuming he doesn't think of it as harm I think he could.

Except maybe gold, but I have no idea why he would need that his own inate healing is already better.

[StanLemon]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Considering Hoid can just heal his powers back that won't do anything.

This isn't necessarily true, we don't know how well he heals Spiritual damage. More recent WoB implies that even healing Spiritual damage doesn't necessarily return lost power unless it's a very supercharged healing, such as a Gold Compounder using a LOT of health. And then there is the possibility of using Hemalurgy to just steal Hoid's healing outright. 

I agree though that in a fight against Hoid and Kelsier, Hoid would almost certainly win.

Edited December 14, 2021 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This isn't necessarily true, we don't know how well he heals Spiritual damage. More recent WoB implies that even healing Spiritual damage doesn't necessarily return lost power unless it's a very supercharged healing, such as a Gold Compounder using a LOT of health. And then there is the possibility of using Hemalurgy to just steal Hoid's healing outright. 

I agree though that in a fight against Hoid and Kelsier, Hoid would almost certainly win.

Hoid can do it.

Spoiler

Llwvyn

Hoid has said that what he does, when he heals or comes back to life or whatever, heals the soul

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Llwvyn

But Hemalurgy is like ripping off a piece of the soul. Could he heal that?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible. Well, his particular brand of healing is very Spiritual Realm based. And so, it would-- he could. Not all brands of healing are capable. It depends on what's happening, and things like that. But yes, he would. Most Shardbearers [Surgebinders?] when they're in the throes of their powers would heal spiritually. *brief pause* Not all of them. Not all healing will do that, though.

Llwvyn

Yeah. Because I was thinking that maybe you could spike him multiple times and compound his power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Spiking him could do some weird things though. But spiking can do weird things to anyone.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

[StanLemon]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Hoid can do it.

  Hide contents

Llwvyn

Hoid has said that what he does, when he heals or comes back to life or whatever, heals the soul

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Llwvyn

But Hemalurgy is like ripping off a piece of the soul. Could he heal that?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible. Well, his particular brand of healing is very Spiritual Realm based. And so, it would-- he could. Not all brands of healing are capable. It depends on what's happening, and things like that. But yes, he would. Most Shardbearers [Surgebinders?] when they're in the throes of their powers would heal spiritually. *brief pause* Not all of them. Not all healing will do that, though.

Llwvyn

Yeah. Because I was thinking that maybe you could spike him multiple times and compound his power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Spiking him could do some weird things though. But spiking can do weird things to anyone.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

But he can't necessarily regain his lost powers

Quote

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

Maybe Hoid's healing is capable of healing the soul perfectly, but if it isn't then he loses the power. Brandon has previously compared Radiant healing to leaving a scar on the soul when healing so that is clearly not enough to regain lost powers. His other healing power is perhaps the best one that we've seen short of nigh infinite supplies of Feruchemical Health and it might be able to heal perfectly, but if Hemalurgy is used to steal that then he would be in trouble

Edited December 14, 2021 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Maybe Hoid's healing is capable of healing the soul perfectly, but if it isn't then he loses the power. Brandon has previously compared Radiant healing to leaving a scar on the when healing so that is clearly not enough to regain lost powers. His other healing power is perhaps the best one that we've seen short of nigh infinite supplies of Feruchemical Health and it might be able to heal perfectly, but if Hemalurgy is used to steal that then he would be in trouble

Can hemalurgy steal that though?

[cometaryorbit]

I am not sure we can necessarily assume that this WoBs referring to soul scars and another WoB referring to Radiant healing "making a patch on the soul" to restore things like Shardblade wounds means that Radiant healing can't restore Hemalurgized powers. Heavy Investiture use transforms the soul/spiritweb anyway*, so it being not-quite the original soul (a "patch") might not really have a lot of implications beyond those of being super-Invested in the first place.

Not all Cosmere healing can cure Shardblade wounds either; Szeth says Honorblade Stormlight can't. Radiants are pretty special/powerful IMO.

*in HoA Epigraphs, Harmony comments that an Allomantic savant is arguably no longer human. Elantrians are transformed, to the point of being horribly messed up when they lose the Dor connection. etc.

[StanLemon]

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Can hemalurgy steal that though?

A good question, personally I think yes...unless it's somehow not part of his Spiritweb and with Hoid that could be a thing. Still lots we don't know

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

A good question, personally I think yes...unless it's somehow not part of his Spiritweb and with Hoid that could be a thing. Still lots we don't know

Or it could be related to why his spiritweb is more messed up than a savant.

[cometaryorbit]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Or it could be related to why his spiritweb is more messed up than a savant.

That might just be because he has had so many Investiture abilities for so long,  plus he's also held a Dawnshard, which probably makes him something between a Sliver and Savant by itself...

[Boomerang Guy]

HoidHoidHoidHoid

No question. 

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

Kelsier wins because Hoid is not allowed to fight ya know, Hoid said that even slapping Kelsier was risky. Kelsier wins all the way. and not just because he is me.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Cool Ookla said:

Kelsier wins because Hoid is not allowed to fight ya know, Hoid said that even slapping Kelsier was risky. Kelsier wins all the way. and not just because he is me.

So long as Hoid thinks of Kelsier as dead he can beat him up all he wants.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

So long as Hoid thinks of Kelsier as dead he can beat him up all he wants.

true, but still Kelsier wins and what is your bet with Nameless?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Cool Ookla said:

true, but still Kelsier wins

How?

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Cool Ookla said:

what is your bet with Nameless?

If two or more characters with 2 or more non-interlude PoV's die in KoW he wins if not I win.

There might be a condition or two I'm not thinking of but that's the gist.