Future of the Honorblades

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-12-19 at 4:17 PM, Nameless said:

It gives the power of a 5th ideal radiant.

Do you have a source on that? Because I'd think the implication is that they grant greater power than that, albeit at terrible fuel-efficiency.

Quote

What will you do with it? the Stormfather asked as Dalinar entered the empty corridor. It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly.

-Oathbringer, chapter 16

That pretty clearly indicates that someone wielding an Honorblade is something more than a regular Radiant, in a way that is somehow distinct from not having the oath restriction.

On 2021-12-19 at 4:02 PM, Letryx13 said:

And are we certain they can't recover from shard blade wounds?

Well:

Quote

Szeth danced out of range as the Shardbearer swung in anger, trying to cut at Szeth's knees. The tempest within Szeth gave him many advantages—including the ability to quickly recover from small wounds. But it would not restore limbs killed by a Shardblade.

-WoK, prologue

Yes. Or at least Szeth doesn't think it's possible.

Note that he can also quickly recover from "small wounds." Honorblade healing is very much inferior to Radiant healing in every respect.

On 2021-12-18 at 2:15 AM, Nameless said:

Half-shards counter shardblades.

"Counter," I'd say. 

Quote

Szeth leaped at one of the Shardbearers–a man in gold armor–deflecting his weapon with the shield and pushing past him. The other man, whose Plate was red, swung too. Szeth caught the Blade on his shield, which began to crack, barely holding.

-WoK, interlude I-9

Half-shards give you maybe three hits, maybe. Which is a vast improvement over none, sure. But if you're fighting someone in Plate, they could always do something like send you flying with a kick instead.

On 2021-12-17 at 11:56 PM, Letryx13 said:

We've never seen someone wielding an honorblade actually lose a fight.

True enough, but:

Quote

Even after all these centuries, seeing a thunderclast up close made Kalak shiver. The beast's hand was as long as a man was tall. He'd been killed by hands like those before, and it hadn't been pleasant.

If course, dying rarely was.

[...]

But I survived, Kalak thought, hand to breast as he hastened to the meeting place. I actually survived this time.

-WoK, prelude

This makes it fairly clear that Heralds have died, often enough that Kalak didn't expect to survive. And if anyone knew the way around the Honorblades, it'd be the Heralds, no?

On 2021-12-19 at 4:17 PM, Nameless said:

Or you could give them to people like Adolin, who don't have a spren bond, to use as a radiant.

I think Adolin would actually be a poor candidate for one, given that Plate and Honorblades don't mix:

Quote

Szeth didn't own a set of Plate himself, and didn't care to. His Lashings interfered with the gemstones that powered Shardplate, and he had to choose one or the other.

-WoK, prologue

It's of course possible that letting the Plate feed directly on his Light could work, but we don't know that (and apparently the Shin haven't found out if it's possible) and it might worsen fuel consumption even more.

On 2021-12-19 at 4:02 PM, Letryx13 said:

Which begs the question, could a spren use one to surge-bind?

I don't see why not.

On 2021-12-17 at 11:56 PM, Letryx13 said:

And as for soldiers now being trained to fight surgebinders, don't forget, Szeth fought full shardbearers in the past.

To be fair, none of them had training fighting Surgebinders.

I'm not saying it'd make all the difference, but if they knew what he could do and had trained to deal with it, they could probably have put up a better fight.

And let's not forget that Gavilar got close to killing Szeth.

On 2021-12-17 at 10:39 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Wide use of aluminum will make Shardblades less significant (the Fused already figured this out as of RoW)

 

Quote

My final point of the evening is a discussion of Fused weapons. The Fused use a variety of fabrial devices to fight Radiants. It is obvious from how quickly they've fabricated and employed these countermeasures that they have used these in the past.

Quote

The simplest Fused weapon against us isn't truly a fabrial, but instead a metal that is extremely light and can withstand the blows of a Shardblade. This metal resists being Soulcast as well; it interferes with a great number of Radiant powers.

Fortunately, the Fused seem unable to create it in great quantities—for they equip only themselves, and not their average soldiers, with these wonders.

-RoW, chapters 16 and 17, epigraphs

The Fused have known about aluminium for a long time.

On 2021-12-19 at 4:02 PM, Letryx13 said:

While I still think they grant more power than typical radiants, the risk is that there are no real requirements to use the power, except to have a lot of stormlight.

The amount of Light is itself a risk, though.

To actually do more than nitpick points made in the thread, part of me definitely wants them preserved, I hate it when unique things are damaged or destroyed.

I can see the argument that they are dangerous, probably more so than a rogue Radiant (even if the spren was fine with whatever they're doing) as they are capable of so much more.

(I've personally speculated that all of them actually operate on the power level of the Bondsmith Blade, makes more sense to me that the Heralds would get equal amounts of power. Might also help level the playing field when one side has ten Surgebinders and the other has all the Fused.)

But how much of a threat are they really? In an age of Radiants, just stealing one (assuming they're smart enough to keep tabs on them) would presumably lead to a lot of people keeping an eye out for it, and you might need to face several Radiants with years of training.

Keep in mind that Szeth probably had over ten years of training with his Blade before the whole Truthless debacle, as well as other martial training. And he presumably had the advantage of documentation, given that the Shin have had the Honorblades for 4500 years.

Someone who just made off with an Honorblade would need to train with it (possibly both powers and Shardwielding), without being found out and with a ridiculous, dangerous Light consumption. Like, when Szeth is trying to kill Hanavar, he draws in so much Light that it's described as being as much as he can hold without it tearing him apart. 

So I don't know how much trouble someone could plausably cause. Unless a Lightweaver stole one of the other Honorblades. That'd be trouble.

I also think that at least keeping the Edgedancer and Truthwatcher Blades around would be a good idea, just for the healing.

 

¤_¤

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Do you have a source on that? Because I'd think the implication is that they grant greater power than that, albeit at terrible fuel-efficiency.

So just hopping in to clarify about honorblades. There are three WoB that either outright state or (in my opinion) heavily imply that when Honor was alive, honorblades were fueled directly by Honor and gave the heralds access to levels of stormlight no radiant could hope to reach. WoB I am referring to are all copied below:

 

(just in case a little addition, was not tagging Inquisitor to correct or anything. just to add info)

 

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

 

 

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

 

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

Edited December 21, 2021 by Pathfinder

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

 

That pretty clearly indicates that someone wielding an Honorblade is something more than a regular Radiant, in a way that is somehow distinct from not having the oath restriction. 

Yeah. This quote is weird. And seems inconsistent with what we see from Szeth and know from WoBs.

OTOH the Stormfather does say "men do not understand, and cannot". So the Blade may have potential abilities that a current era user can't generally use, which would make it consistent.

Perhaps in an era with Splintered Honor, there'd be a way to use it to access more power (kind of like the "Bondsmith unchained" thing) but it would take way more Realmatic/Cosmere knowledge than anyone actually has?

Or maybe you'd need to be a Cognitive Shadow (which the Heralds are. And the Stormfather too, besides being a spren) to get the full effect?

[Inquisitor #5]

17 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And seems inconsistent with what we see from Szeth and know from WoBs.

That's fair.

I think that we can speculate based on this WoB, however:

Quote

Questioner

Based on what we know currently about ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember that the characters's perception is very important.

Questioner

So then that's why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, it's the exact same reason that Kaladin's forehead wounds don't heal. Because he views himself as having those somewhere deep inside of him and he can't heal until that gets away. And it works for the same reason why in Warbreaker when you bring something to life, your intention rather than really what you say is what matters. It's all about perception.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Perception matters, if someone doesn't think/know something is possible, it's maybe not impossible, but at least less possible.

If, as one of the WoBs @Pathfinderkindly supplied IMO says outright, drawing power directly from Honor is a function of the Blades themselves, someone not knowing that this is possible presumably still couldn't do it.

This of course depends on how well informed the Shin who took custodianship of the Honorblades were. I assume that that's information they'd want to pass along, just like the Blades granting Surgebinding.

17 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

OTOH the Stormfather does say "men do not understand, and cannot". So the Blade may have potential abilities that a current era user can't generally use, which would make it consistent.

Heh, maybe I should have saved some of the above section for here.

Yes, I find this very likely. The Shin (or at least whatever subdivision of the Shin have Honorblade knowhow) are aware of the power granting bit, but not their full functions.

There's also the fact that Szeth seems to have a perk that Radiants do not:

Quote

Szeth-son-son-Vallano, Truthless of Shinovar, spun between the two guards as their eyes burned out. They slumped quietly to the floor. With three quick strokes, he slashed his Shardblade through the hinges and latch of the grand door. Then he took a deep breath, absorbing the Stormlight from a pouch of gemstones at his waist. He burst alight with renewed power and kicked the door with the force of a Light-enhanced kick.

Quote

Szeth leaped at one of the Shardbearers–a man in gold armor–deflecting his weapon with the shield and pushing past him. The other man, whose Plate was red, swung too. Szeth caught the Blade on his shield, which began to crack, barely holding.

-both WoK, interlude I-9

Quote

Szeth bowed his head, hiding his Shin eyes and hurrying up to them. One of the men held out his hand wardingly, so Szeth grabbed it, twisting, shattering the wrist. He smashed his elbow into the man's face, throwing him back against the wall.

The man's stunned companion opened his mouth to yell, but Szeth kicked him in the stomach. Even without a Shardblade, he was dangerous, infused with Stormlight and trained in kammar. He grabbed the second guard by the hair and slammed his forehead against the rock floor. Then he rose and kicked open the door.

-WoK, chapter 71

Quote

"Thank you," the assassin said, "for extending my agony by not dying easily." He stepped back and burst afire with white light.

He came at Dalinar again, inhumanly quick.

[...]

The assassin moved like a shadow. His step seemed to quick to be human. When he jumped, he soared in the air. He swung his Shardblade like flashes of lightning, and would occasionally stretch forward with his other hand, as if to grab Dalinar.

[...]

Finally, Dalinar twisted away from a strike but was unable to move quickly enough. The assassin rounded on him an thrust a fist into his side.

Dalinar's ribs cracked. He grunted, stumbling, almost falling. He swung his Blade toward Szeth, warding the man back, but it didn't matter. The damage was done. He sank to his knees, barely able to remain upright for the pain.

[...]

Adolin barely had time to shout ad the assassin—moving at blinding speed—spun and cut the blade from the hilt of Roion's sword. Szeth's hand shot out and slammed against Roion's chest.

[...]

The assassin twisted in the air, then crashed down to the ground, glowing like a comet. Adolin barely parried a blow from the Blade; the force of it was incredible. It tossed him backward. The assassin spun, and a pair of bridgemen fell with burning eyes. Others lost spearheads as they tried to stab at him.

[...]

Like Damnation itself, you are! Adolin raised his Shardblade overhead.

The assassin spun and slapped the weapon so hard with his own Blade that Adolin heard something snap in his wrist. His Blade tumbled from his fingers, vanishing. The assassin's hand slapped out, knuckles striking Adolin in the chest, and he gasped, his breath suddenly gone from his throat.

-WoR, chapter 85

Contrast all of this with what we learn in Oathbringer:

Quote

Kaladin glanced toward Rock, who stood over Amaram's body, looking down, the enormous bow held limply in one hand. How had he drawn it? Stormlight granted great endurance, but it didn't vastly improve strength.

Oathbringer, chapter 120

I'd say it looks like Szeth is enhanced physically somehow with the Honorblade. I don't think that Szeth is naturally strong enough to toss people around with his attacks.

In the WoR quote, it also looks like he might be quicker than he should be. Him moving could be chalked up to Lashings, but his strikes falling so fast?

17 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Perhaps in an era with Splintered Honor, there'd be a way to use it to access more power (kind of like the "Bondsmith unchained" thing)

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. A looot. A scary amount of sense.

I like it!

It also makes for a neat balancing act, as the Honorblades already use a "dangerous" amount of Light (or presumably whatever Investiture you'd manage to plug into them. Sidenote, do Honorblades natively feed on whatever Investiture, similar to Nightblood?) so drawing even more power should carry greater risks.

Quote

Szeth blinked, Lashing himself to that distant point down the hallway. Stormlight raged from him in a flash, chilling his skin, and the ground immediately stopped pulling him downward. Instead, he was pulled toward that distant point—it was as if, to him, that direction had suddenly become down.

This was a Basic Lashing, first of the three kinds of Lashings. It gave him the ability to manipulate whatever force, spren, or god it was that held men to the ground. With this Lashing, he could bind people or objects to different surfaces or in different directions.

From Szeth's perspective, the hallway was now a deep shaft down which he was falling, and the two guards stood on one of the sides. They were shocked when Szeth's feet hit them, one for each face, throwing them over. Szeth shifted his view and Lashed himself to the floor. Light leaked from him. The floor of the hallway again became down, and he landed between the two guards, clothes crackling and dropping flakes of frost. He rose, beginning the process of summoning his Shardblade.

-WoK, prologue

Szeth moves enough energy out of the system to freeze his clothes to the point of crackling. Presumably in a way similar to this:

Quote

Questioner

Why does Stormlight make things cold?

Brandon Sanderson

It’s not the Stormlight, it’s condensation because something is going directly from a gas into a solid. The coldness is caused by that, it’s not necessarily that the Stormlight is making things cold, but that the Shardblade is condensing.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

Quote

"So let it be," Szeth said, breathing deeply, sucking in the Stormlight of the many gemstones tied in the pouches at his waist. The Light began to rage within him, like a highstorm in his chest, burning and screaming. He breathed in more than he'd ever held before, holding it until he was barely able to keep the Stormlight from ripping him apart.

-WoK, interlude I-9

Assuming that this isn't hyperbole, Szeth seems to have hit the normal human threshold for using an Honorblade here.

My assumption is that if more Stormlight was added to the system, the Light escaping would damage his body faster than the limited healing of an Honorblade could heal. Presumably similar to this:

Quote

Hut on a Hill

One last question, why do gems crack when Stormlight is drawn out of them quickly?

Brandon Sanderson

When the Stormlight is coming out--you'll notice that there's the slightest physical presence of lots of spren, seons. A lot of this Investiture does have a physical side to it you can feel and that much Stormlight coming through... like when it's leaking out, it is generally going through micro cracks in the structure--where the crystal lattice didn't line up or flaws in the structure--and it coming out quickly like that, it's like hitting it with a hammer from inside along those fault lines. Much less likely to happen based on how good your gemstone is.

YouTube Live Fan Mail Opening 1 (Oct. 30, 2021)

Same kind of thing, but with human skin and muscle. Fun times.

I'd say this, from the same sequence, lends additional support:

Quote

The soldiers and Shardbearers charged. Mere heartbeats before they reached him, Szeth spun into motion, liquid tempest in his veins. He dodged between the initial sword strikes, spinning into the midst of the soldiers. Holding this much Stormlight made it easier to infuse things; the light wanted out, and it pushed against his skin. In this state, the Shardblade would only be a distraction. Szeth himself was the real weapon.

-WoK, interlude I-9

The Light is described as pushing against his skin, which, given the WoB above, I'm inclined to believe is an actual, physical sensation.

Going beyond this point should start killing any mortal, except possibly one that has consistently held Light at this level long enough for savantism to start setting in.

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

but it would take way more Realmatic/Cosmere knowledge than anyone actually has?

Ishar says hi (and probably screams about being a god )

Which is a scary thought.

21 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Or maybe you'd need to be a Cognitive Shadow (which the Heralds are. And the Stormfather too, besides being a spren) to get the full effect?

I think it might be part perception, knowing that it's there unlocks it, and part is being whatever the Heralds are (I don't think that things like Taln's super reflexes are standard features of Cognitive Shadows, for instance), I assume that they can handle more Light at a time than a mortal for instance. It probably helps that they are (presumably) made from Honor's Investiture, they are "kin" to the Light.

On 2021-12-21 at 5:48 PM, Pathfinder said:

There are three WoB that either outright state or (in my opinion) heavily imply that when Honor was alive, honorblades were fueled directly by Honor and gave the heralds access to levels of stormlight no radiant could hope to reach.

That's my read too, with one slight exception.

Quote

He clung to her, this monster, this callous thing that had once been a Herald. He clung to her and wept in the storm. Then, with a crash of thunder, he pushed away from her. He stumbled on the slick rock, blown by the winds, then started to glow.

-Edgedancer, chapter 19

There's also chapter 111 of RoW, where Ishar does not seem to be holding or drawing in Light (no mention of him glowing), while he clearly Surgebinds. 

So I think that the ability to draw power directly from Honor still persists.

 

¤_¤

[cometaryorbit]

Szeth's physical enhancement: maybe, but I'm not sure. Kaladin's statement that it doesn't "greatly" improve strength means there is still some enhancement, and Szeth is trained in kinds of martial arts Kaladin and the other Alethkar area Radiants aren't, so he could probably do more with the strength.

Plus Szeth even by WoK has been using a Honorblade way longer than Kaladin has had his powers. Using Investiture, especially in dangerous amounts, can change you.

(And if Szeth is holding those dangerous amounts, does that amp-up his physical enhancement?)

So I don't know if this is a Honorblade / Radiant difference or a Szeth / Kaladin difference.

--

I don't think Honorblades "eat Investiture" as Nightblood does, no.

--

The Heralds may totally retain some ability to draw on Honor. But probably not the near-infinite Stormlight they had before.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

There's also chapter 111 of RoW, where Ishar does not seem to be holding or drawing in Light (no mention of him glowing), while he clearly Surgebinds. 

So I think that the ability to draw power directly from Honor still persists.

 

¤_¤

So I just bring this up for full disclosure, not that I myself disagree with you. The reason why I knew of these WoB, was because of past discussions on why were the heralds seen as powerful when they seem weaker than radiants, and also the typical fullborn versus thread. I posit that since there are WoB that say a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a full metal mind, then a radiant elsecaller could soulcast the Lord Ruler's metalminds from the cognitive realm when they are not being tapped, and that Battar when using an honorblade as it was originally intended, could do so even if the lord ruler was tapping them. This lead to a rather large debate on the honorblades, with many people disagreeing, which is why I said I believe it to have functioned that way. Some of the arguments I have heard as to why they believe it no longer works that way is:

1. Nale glowed when he confronted Lift which implies stormlight

2. Why didn't Nale use the greater powers of his honorblade to apprehend Lift if he could still tap into honor's power

(again, not saying I believe these things, just bringing them up in full disclosure as they were stated to me as reasons for disagreeing)

 

It could also be said that Ishar just knew how to hide the glow, like how Shallan learns how to with her lightweaver powers. (again not saying I personally believe that, but I see that being a reason to be brought up)

 

For myself I definitely feel like the heralds could tap into levels of power like Vin did when the honorblades were working as they should have. Whether or not they still do, I don't know. 

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Szeth's physical enhancement: maybe, but I'm not sure. Kaladin's statement that it doesn't "greatly" improve strength means there is still some enhancement, and Szeth is trained in kinds of martial arts Kaladin and the other Alethkar area Radiants aren't, so he could probably do more with the strength.

Plus Szeth even by WoK has been using a Honorblade way longer than Kaladin has had his powers. Using Investiture, especially in dangerous amounts, can change you.

(And if Szeth is holding those dangerous amounts, does that amp-up his physical enhancement?).

Awhile back I had a theory that as Szeth used stormlight with the honorblade more and more, he became more efficient in its use, like his body was adjusting to it. I went through some of Way of Kings (which I believe was the only book out at that time, or maybe Words of Radiance was out too), and it did seem like he was healing faster as the book progressed. But I did not have a chance to go through the whole book with a fine tooth comb, was I was unable to prove it. 

[Sp00ks]

On 12/16/2021 at 0:27 PM, Nameless said:

I don't think that the honorblades will be that dangerous. Obviously Ishar's Honorblade will be extremely dangerous, but the others seem to simply give a less efficient version of the radiant bond, albeit without the need for ideals. Besides that, I don't think it would be so easy to destroy them as you assume:

And I think it would be easier to protect intact blades than it would be to protect a pile of dust. Especially if the person holding it can use it to protect themselves. I think a solution like the Shin, that of a group dedicated to protecting the blades, would be the best one aside from curing the heralds of their insanity and giving their blades back.

Man, that quote from Brandon about "Godmetal dust" makes me wonder what a mistborn burning Tanavast's God Metal would be able to do

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

This lead to a rather large debate on the honorblades, with many people disagreeing, which is why I said I believe it to have functioned that way. Some of the arguments I have heard as to why they believe it no longer works that way is:

1. Nale glowed when he confronted Lift which implies stormlight

2. Why didn't Nale use the greater powers of his honorblade to apprehend Lift if he could still tap into honor's power(again, not saying I believe these things, just bringing them up in full disclosure as they were stated to me as reasons for disagreeing)

I would say that if this ability persists at all, it's lessened enough that Nale can't get significantly more Stormlight than a normal KR could hold (IE maybe he could get Investiture without spheres/gems, but not huge quantities).

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

For myself I definitely feel like the heralds could tap into levels of power like Vin did when the honorblades were working as they should have. Whether or not they still do, I don't know.

I think that

Spoiler

Vin burning mists

is a generally good analogy, and I think I've used it before myself, but I do have one question/issue with it - we know the Heralds could be killed, and per Kalak's POV in the Prelude, apparently by simply being physically smashed by thunderclasts. When Vin is

Spoiler

using "limitless pewter" by burning the mists when she fights the Inquisitors at Kredik Shaw just before fully ascending to Preservation, her broken limbs heal near-instantly, and she seems basically invulnerable

I don't think a thunderclast could have killed her then. This might be a limit of the Honorblades' lesser healing, though, like not healing Shardblade wounds - perhaps if they're just outright killed it doesn't work?

But why doesn't near infinite Stormlight boost their physical enhancement to the point that they can break thunderclasts barehanded? How could the Fused ever capture and torture them - why weren't they just tossing Fused aside like rag dolls, breaking chains, etc.? Can they still only hold X amount of Stormlight at once, even if they can resupply infinitely?

[Inquisitor #5]

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Kaladin's statement that it doesn't "greatly" improve strength means there is still some enhancement, and Szeth is trained in kinds of martial arts Kaladin and the other Alethkar area Radiants aren't, so he could probably do more with the strength.

Given that he throws Adolin backward with his strike and breaks his wrist by slapping the Blade from his hand, to name just two instances, it feels like there's more than just a bit of strength enhancement to me.

Sure, the lower gravity of Roshar should mean lower bone density, but also a corresponding decrease in muscular strength, no?

I am not denying that Szeth has martial training different from what's found in the Vorin kingdoms, but that doesn't mean that the Alethi aren't trained. War is their business, it's noted that boys are learning the sword at age five.

Quote

"Other boys my age learn the sword," Gav said, his voice growing softer. "Don't they?"

They did. In Alethkar, families—particularly lighteyed ones—would go to war together. The Azish thought it unnatural, but to the Alethi it was the way of things. Children as youn as ten would learn to serve as officers' aides, and boys would often be given a training sword as soon as they could walk.

-RoW, chapter 16

Szeth is also described as being noticably smaller than Dalinar:

Quote

Dalinar was far taller and broader. This small man in white, with his pale skin, seemed almost a youth, a stripling by comparison.

-RoW, chapter 85

Now, the height can probably be chalked up to "storming Alethi and their long legs." But this tells us that Szeth isn't physically imposing. 

His constant physical activity should mean that he's physically fit of course, but I'm not sure how easily that would let him crack someone's ribs with a punch.

In any case, I'm not sure how much Szeth's martial arts training does or doesn't help him, compared to Alethi martial training.

I will freely admit that I do not have personal familiarity with martial arts beyond judo and longsword, so I can't judge what is and isn't reasonable to see from hand-to-hand strikes.

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Plus Szeth even by WoK has been using a Honorblade way longer than Kaladin has had his powers. Using Investiture, especially in dangerous amounts, can change you.

True. The question then is what the threshold for this to noticeably start happening. I suppose that once he got the assassination list, his Stormlight consumption rose dramatically, as he didn't just use his powers to kill, but also to travel. And given that he notes that Light lasts for minutes at most for him, he'd need to take in a lot of it.

Hmm.

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And if Szeth is holding those dangerous amounts, does that amp-up his physical enhancement?

Not unreasonable. Assuming that this is an Honorblade function, and he's on the path to Honorblade savantism.

Interesting.

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

So I don't know if this is a Honorblade / Radiant difference or a Szeth / Kaladin difference.

Fair enough, I'm obviously in the former camp.

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The Heralds may totally retain some ability to draw on Honor.

Heh, the funny thing is, the way this is phrased, I disagree.

I see it as a function of the Honorblades, not the Heralds.

General Mistborn:

Spoiler

Just as Sazed's ascension and the creation of Harmony didn't change Allomancy or the nature of existing atium, I don't think that the Splintering of Honor would have changed extant objects.

The Honorblades were already the Honorblades, their nature should have stayed the same.

 

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

But probably not the near-infinite Stormlight they had before.

This seems likely, though we haven't seen enough Heralds with their Blades to judge, IMO.

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think Honorblades "eat Investiture" as Nightblood does, no.

Fair enough, that was just a thought that struck me.

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

But why doesn't near infinite Stormlight boost their physical enhancement to the point that they can break thunderclasts barehanded?

A few things, I think.

Their strength may be enhanced, but they are still all fleshy. Trying to use said increased strength to break a rock monster will just end with your soft, squishy body yielding before the rock does.

Depending on the mechanics of said enhancement, there may be some point where it plateaus, and there's only so much Investiture to feed into it in any given moment.

Mistborn:

Spoiler

Sorry if this misrepresents the question, but is this not a bit like asking why pewter dragging doesn't let you throw buildings?

 

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

How could the Fused ever capture and torture them - why weren't they just tossing Fused aside like rag dolls, breaking chains, etc.?

Do you ever encounter a question that makes you realise you've taken something for granted with no actual support for it?

I've assumed that the Heralds can't use their abilities when not incarnated. And the same for the Fused.

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Can they still only hold X amount of Stormlight at once, even if they can resupply infinitely?

Oh, I hadn't even realised that there were other interpretations than this.

Yes. I think that they have/had an unlimited supply, but could only draw in so much at once.

And they must have a "saturation point," so to speak. There is a threshold to how much Investiture you can pump into any given system.

Now, the Heralds might be able to handle more at once than your average mortal, but an arbitraty amount at any given time.

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think that

  Reveal hidden contents

Vin burning mists

is a generally good analogy, and I think I've used it before myself, but I do have one question/issue with it - we know the Heralds could be killed, and per Kalak's POV in the Prelude, apparently by simply being physically smashed by thunderclasts.

I definitely think that the Heralds at their peak were below that level of power.

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I would say that if this ability persists at all, it's lessened enough that Nale can't get significantly more Stormlight than a normal KR could hold (IE maybe he could get Investiture without spheres/gems, but not huge quantities).

To me, this is not a problem of the ability persisting or not.

It's a problem of either what's at the other end (not all of Honor/Honor in pieces/a small part of Honor) or the conduit between them being damaged somehow.

The Honorblade itself should not have changed.

Well, possibly Jezrien's post his true death, depending on whether there's more than just the bond to the Blade between Herald and Blade. But that is of course not a direct consequence of Honor's Splintering.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Nale glowed when he confronted Lift which implies stormlight

Hmm, what an interesting point of view. That seems such an odd distinction for people to make.

I'd assume that the power the Heralds can draw from Honor is Stormlight. What else would it be?

As you said that you brought these things up for disclosure, rather than arguing for them, I'm obviously not arguing against you here. The ideas condensed in your post are however interesting to comment on.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Why didn't Nale use the greater powers of his honorblade to apprehend Lift if he could still tap into honor's power

Good question. It looks to me like he has generally avoided using his Surgebinding openly.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

It could also be said that Ishar just knew how to hide the glow, like how Shallan learns how to with her lightweaver powers.

Fair enough. I suppose the thing is that he doesn't seem to draw in Light.

Then again, Bondsmiths seem to just break rules left and right. Dalinar doesn't need Light to infuse Radiants or open the perpendicularity, it seems.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

For myself I definitely feel like the heralds could tap into levels of power like Vin did when the honorblades were working as they should have.

As I've stated above, I don't think they were on this level. 

Powerful to a ridiculous degree? Yes. To that degree? No.

If nothing else for the reason that there are ten of them, so the power would be divided between them.

Though I think there are other reasons as well, like

Spoiler

that Vin is Ascending to a Shard. The Heralds presumably had access to a tenth each of a subset of Honor's power. I don't think that Tanavast would just have let them freely draw on Honor in its entirity.

 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I posit that since there are WoB that say a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a full metal mind, then a radiant elsecaller could soulcast the Lord Ruler's metalminds from the cognitive realm when they are not being tapped, and that Battar when using an honorblade as it was originally intended, could do so even if the lord ruler was tapping them.

Ah.

I will say openly that I hate the Soulcasting from the Cognitive idea. I don't think it should work. I'm prepared to accept it does, but it doesn't feel right.

And I know there's the deleted scene of Jasnah doing it. 

I suppose it could be specifically an Elsecaller thing, being able to use the power transcending Realms, because Jasnah needed to be more powerful.

I could see what you posit working, even with my more limited Investiture allowance.

Surgebinding is wild.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

This lead to a rather large debate on the honorblades, with many people disagreeing

I can imagine.

 

¤_¤

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I would say that if this ability persists at all, it's lessened enough that Nale can't get significantly more Stormlight than a normal KR could hold (IE maybe he could get Investiture without spheres/gems, but not huge quantities).

I think that

  Reveal hidden contents

Vin burning mists

is a generally good analogy, and I think I've used it before myself, but I do have one question/issue with it - we know the Heralds could be killed, and per Kalak's POV in the Prelude, apparently by simply being physically smashed by thunderclasts. When Vin is

  Reveal hidden contents

using "limitless pewter" by burning the mists when she fights the Inquisitors at Kredik Shaw just before fully ascending to Preservation, her broken limbs heal near-instantly, and she seems basically invulnerable

I don't think a thunderclast could have killed her then. This might be a limit of the Honorblades' lesser healing, though, like not healing Shardblade wounds - perhaps if they're just outright killed it doesn't work?

But why doesn't near infinite Stormlight boost their physical enhancement to the point that they can break thunderclasts barehanded? How could the Fused ever capture and torture them - why weren't they just tossing Fused aside like rag dolls, breaking chains, etc.? Can they still only hold X amount of Stormlight at once, even if they can resupply infinitely?

So in prior discussions this has come up, and my response, which you will probably not like, is we have not seen the full capabilities that team Odium can bring to bear. For a long time people complained about radiant's abilities to heal. that they could never be killed, because with enough stormlight, you could heal from any injury. Then all of a sudden the fused are showing weapons that can actively drain stormlight from the radiant. Now radiants have to worry about being struck by these weapons, and running out of their abilities. Doubly worrisome for aerial radiants because being sapped of all your stormlight while in midair means potentially a very long and lethal drop. Then there is the fabrial that negates the abilities period. Suddenly radiants are neutered. The fabrial is difficult to manuever and requires planning, as well as there is Dalinar now able to recharge them, but my point is there are two functional counters that the fused have access to, and have had access to in the past, that we had no idea of in prior books. There is a WoB where someone confronts Brandon on this, and he says he is well aware of the power creep and has that balance well in mind. So although I readily admit this is a form of a cop out, I posit that we have yet to see the full abilities and powers that team Odium can bring to bear. For all we know we have not even seen thunderclasts at full power yet. So I do not think just because we have not seen something that could be deemed a threat yet, means no such thing exists. 

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Hmm, what an interesting point of view. That seems such an odd distinction for people to make.

I'd assume that the power the Heralds can draw from Honor is Stormlight. What else would it be?

There is another WoB that an honorblade is likened to a

Spoiler

nicrosil metal mind

So it could be said it is not so much stormlight as pure investiture

Quote

Though I think there are other reasons as well, like

  Reveal hidden contents

that Vin is Ascending to a Shard. The Heralds presumably had access to a tenth each of a subset of Honor's power. I don't think that Tanavast would just have let them freely draw on Honor in its entirity.

There are WoB about that scene that I will have to dig up and spoiler because of their content, but essentially there is a definable moment where what you refer to happens. What I am referring to precedes that. Ah might as well spoil it so I don't have to be so vague

Spoiler

There is a definable moment where Vin "ascends". Her drawing on the mists and leveling kredik shaw precedes that. So she had not ascended yet so those abilities of drawing directly on the mists to fuel her powers were not the result of the ascension. 

Quote

Ah.

I will say openly that I hate the Soulcasting from the Cognitive idea. I don't think it should work. I'm prepared to accept it does, but it doesn't feel right.

And I know there's the deleted scene of Jasnah doing it. 

I suppose it could be specifically an Elsecaller thing, being able to use the power transcending Realms, because Jasnah needed to be more powerful.

I could see what you posit working, even with my more limited Investiture allowance.

Surgebinding is wild.

I can imagine.

 

¤_¤

yeah, I totally acknowledge for some it is a bridge too far, or they disagree. Was not bringing it up to reargue the points and digress the thread. Just explaining where the info came up, why I had the info, and the standard responses to that info. I also mentioned another point earlier in this post in response to comet.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Pathfinder

[cometaryorbit]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Given that he throws Adolin backward with his strike and breaks his wrist by slapping the Blade from his hand, to name just two instances, it feels like there's more than just a bit of strength enhancement to me.

Sure, the lower gravity of Roshar should mean lower bone density, but also a corresponding decrease in muscular strength, no?

I am not denying that Szeth has martial training different from what's found in the Vorin kingdoms, but that doesn't mean that the Alethi aren't trained.

I agree the Alethi have lots of weapon training. But if they don't emphasize the bare handed stuff as the Shin do, some throws etc might seem pretty freaky to them.

Holding Stormlight also makes you more graceful etc., so the strength you have is being used with greater efficiency. So even if actual raw strength (measured by a bench press or whatever) is not increased that much, effective use of it in combat may be.

 

9 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, I hadn't even realised that there were other interpretations than this.

Yes. I think that they have/had an unlimited supply, but could only draw in so much at once.

And they must have a "saturation point," so to speak. There is a threshold to how much Investiture you can pump into any given system.

Now, the Heralds might be able to handle more at once than your average mortal, but an arbitraty amount at any given time.

[...]

As I've stated above, I don't think they were on this level. 

Powerful to a ridiculous degree? Yes. To that degree? No.

If nothing else for the reason that there are ten of them, so the power would be divided between them.

Yeah, "only so much at a time" combined with their less efficient use of Stormlight + limits on Honorblade healing would keep them at a point where a thunderclast could kill them.

(I don't think any purely physical damage could kill a Radiant or Gold Compounder with unlimited Investiture resupply, you'd have to cut off the Investiture or use anti Investiture or other-Realm damage like Nightblood. But Honorblade healing is much more limited.)

I would argue that 10%, or 1%, of a Shard is already enough to be "infinite for most practical purposes", so I think the capacity limit or some equivalent is needed.

[Letryx13]

Revisiting this topic after a while.  I still wonder whether or not the Honor blades are too dangerous, but perhaps their usefulness balances out the extreme danger. They can be used to teach radiant powers when there are very few members, such as currently with ElseCallers, or times when there may not be any of a particular order, such as BondSmiths. 

But the danger is still very real, so I wonder how they might be balanced. One thought I had would be to bind them to a specific location, such as the crystal pillar room in Uritheru, to prevent them from being stolen. It sounds like the sort of thing a BondSmith could do.

[bmcclure7]

On 12/13/2021 at 5:31 PM, Quantus said:

Based on what we've seen I agree with the Spren's general stance that they are too dangerous to allow in the hands of mortals, without Honor to be around to limit their use.

Thus, they need to be Removed from the equation, or else Honor needs to be Restored to it.  

Otherwise, those Swords will be MacGuffin level superweapons that everyone else fights over, come era4.  The only thing more frightening than a Cosmere-aware Ligthweaver (now that we know the Power of Waveform manipulation) is the thought of what a properly Aware and educated, but entirely unrestricted and amoral Bondsmith could do.  Just imagine THAT villain abroad and combining magics.

There not that powerful a 3d ideal radiante is more powerful.  

[Quantus he/him]

11 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

There not that powerful a 3d ideal radiante is more powerful.  

I think you wildly underestimate how much the Spren's own personality and the restriction of those Ideals themselves are restraining the use of the Surges.  It's not about Stormlight efficiency, or the perks of Plate and Squires, it's the fact that the full power of the Surges can be bought, sold, and stolen by anyone of any personality type, competance level, or conviction to any Ideal at all. 

Imagine the most sinister person you can think of in the cosmere, now give them all the powers and potential world-ending dangers of a Bondsmith.  Now imagine the most stupid and reckless person in the cosmere, and given them the same thing.  Ditto with Ash's Sword, since the potential of Lightweaving with an understanding of Radiation was stupid even before we knew Lightweaving could mean direct Investiture-manipulation, and we all know how broken Soulcasting can probably become in sci-fi hands.  

[cometaryorbit]

Eh, some Radiants are not that restrained- many Skybreakers and probably some Dustbringers are outright fighting on Odium's side now. There are some limits sure, but how practically relevant they are now that the Radiant spren aren't all on the same side... eh...

The Bondsmith Blade is definitely up there in the super dangerous levels.

As for others, I think you'd need a Dawnshard or other external enhancement to make them really large scale dangerous. Most Surgebinding is relatively personal-scale/short-range: Windrunners/Skybreakers touch things to Lash them, most Soulcasters have to touch to Soulcast (though it's possible to do it at some range eg Jasnah), Abrasion is mostly on self and probably by touch otherwise, Progression healing seems to be by touch, the very little we see of Cohesion seems to involve touching the stone being shaped, etc.

When Shallan does a whole army of illusions in OB she's running on unlimited Stormlight from Dalinar's perpendicularity. That’s not a normal function.

Szeth was insanely effective for ages, but the first time he fought a real Radiant he lost.

While the Honorblades are probably potentially more powerful in some ways, I think someone who just steals one is going to be in practice notably weaker than a 3rd ideal Radiant of the same order. Szeth was very experienced with the Honorblade.

Lightweaving can theoretically do some pretty crazy things, but it seems like even fairly basic uses of Surgebinding take a very long time to learn compared to other cosmere magic systems - (Mistborn Era 1, Warbreaker)

Spoiler

Allomancy you can just Snap and use, e.g. Mist-snapping in HoA. Mistborn have way more powers and take longer to learn, but still, Kelsier's ready to fight an experienced Mistborn 3 months after Snapping- so it's not just Vin's unusual intuition for Allomancy letting her learn super fast, Allomancy is just quick to learn.

Vivenna can learn basic Awakening pretty fast in Warbreaker, and indeed, there are some Commands anybody can use as soon as they're told what they are (Vasher's memory altering Command, the Command to give Breath to someone else).

It takes our major Stormlight characters a *long* time to learn to do much with their powers. Jasnah's been a Radiant way longer than the rest.

So I don't think someone who steals a Honorblade is going to be able to avoid having it taken back long before they learn to use it effectively.

Edited October 7, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Quantus said:

I think you wildly underestimate how much the Spren's own personality and the restriction of those Ideals themselves are restraining the use of the Surges.  It's not about Stormlight efficiency, or the perks of Plate and Squires, it's the fact that the full power of the Surges can be bought, sold, and stolen by anyone of any personality type, competance level, or conviction to any Ideal at all. 

Imagine the most sinister person you can think of in the cosmere, now give them all the powers and potential world-ending dangers of a Bondsmith.  Now imagine the most stupid and reckless person in the cosmere, and given them the same thing.  Ditto with Ash's Sword, since the potential of Lightweaving with an understanding of Radiation was stupid even before we knew Lightweaving could mean direct Investiture-manipulation, and we all know how broken Soulcasting can probably become in sci-fi hands.  

 Are the bondsmith really world ending though. Don't mistake me ishar sure did some pretty cool tricks.  But none of them would have destroyed even a small town much less a world. 

 

The honor Blades are only useful if there are no other surgebinders, If The world is full of nights radiant of the 3rd ideal or higher,  The worth of a honnor blade goes way down.

 

Think of it like a shotgun. If it's the only gun in the world it sounds like a devastating unstoppable weapon, But in the world of machine guns tanks nuclear bombs, It's a criminal with a shotgun is still bad but really not anything we can't handle. 

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Are the bondsmith really world ending though. Don't mistake me ishar sure did some pretty cool tricks.  But none of them would have destroyed even a small town much less a world. 

 

The honor Blades are only useful if there are no other surgebinders, If The world is full of nights radiant of the 3rd ideal or higher,  The worth of a honnor blade goes way down.

 

Think of it like a shotgun. If it's the only gun in the world it sounds like a devastating unstoppable weapon, But in the world of machine guns tanks nuclear bombs, It's a criminal with a shotgun is still bad but really not anything we can't handle. 

Only thing is that Honorblades do more than that, more that we don't know yet. The Stormfather described it as being close to Heraldic.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Only thing is that Honorblades do more than that, more that we don't know yet. The Stormfather described it as being close to Heraldic.

Perhaps, but that's not what we have seen so far. 

[Frustration]

30 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Perhaps, but that's not what we have seen so far. 

That's why I said more than we know.

We won't understand the Heralds and the Oathpact entirely until the back five books.

[Letryx13]

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

There not that powerful a 3d ideal radiante is more powerful.  

If you're referring to Kaladin's fight with Szeth, it's explicitly stated that Szeth let Kaladin kill him.  

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Are the bondsmith really world ending though. Don't mistake me ishar sure did some pretty cool tricks.  But none of them would have destroyed even a small town much less a world. 

 

The honor Blades are only useful if there are no other surgebinders, If The world is full of nights radiant of the 3rd ideal or higher,  The worth of a honnor blade goes way down.

 

Think of it like a shotgun. If it's the only gun in the world it sounds like a devastating unstoppable weapon, But in the world of machine guns tanks nuclear bombs, It's a criminal with a shotgun is still bad but really not anything we can't handle. 

Dalinar at the third Ideal managed to imprison one of the Unmade. The Unmade are supposedly on the same level as the StormFather, or at least in the same ballpark. And the storm father is the source of high storms. That speaks volumes to a BondSmith's power.  Not to mention the fact that Odium (Rayse) seemed to be frightened of Dalinar reaching his full potential.  If that doesn't indicate a BondSmoth's potential power, I don't know what does.

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Eh, some Radiants are not that restrained- many Skybreakers and probably some Dustbringers are outright fighting on Odium's side now. There are some limits sure, but how practically relevant they are now that the Radiant spren aren't all on the same side... eh...

The Bondsmith Blade is definitely up there in the super dangerous levels.

As for others, I think you'd need a Dawnshard or other external enhancement to make them really large scale dangerous. Most Surgebinding is relatively personal-scale/short-range: Windrunners/Skybreakers touch things to Lash them, most Soulcasters have to touch to Soulcast (though it's possible to do it at some range eg Jasnah), Abrasion is mostly on self and probably by touch otherwise, Progression healing seems to be by touch, the very little we see of Cohesion seems to involve touching the stone being shaped, etc.

When Shallan does a whole army of illusions in OB she's running on unlimited Stormlight from Dalinar's perpendicularity. That’s not a normal function.

Szeth was insanely effective for ages, but the first time he fought a real Radiant he lost.

While the Honorblades are probably potentially more powerful in some ways, I think someone who just steals one is going to be in practice notably weaker than a 3rd ideal Radiant of the same order. Szeth was very experienced with the Honorblade.

Lightweaving can theoretically do some pretty crazy things, but it seems like even fairly basic uses of Surgebinding take a very long time to learn compared to other cosmere magic systems - (Mistborn Era 1, Warbreaker)

  Reveal hidden contents

Allomancy you can just Snap and use, e.g. Mist-snapping in HoA. Mistborn have way more powers and take longer to learn, but still, Kelsier's ready to fight an experienced Mistborn 3 months after Snapping- so it's not just Vin's unusual intuition for Allomancy letting her learn super fast, Allomancy is just quick to learn.

Vivenna can learn basic Awakening pretty fast in Warbreaker, and indeed, there are some Commands anybody can use as soon as they're told what they are (Vasher's memory altering Command, the Command to give Breath to someone else).

It takes our major Stormlight characters a *long* time to learn to do much with their powers. Jasnah's been a Radiant way longer than the rest.

So I don't think someone who steals a Honorblade is going to be able to avoid having it taken back long before they learn to use it effectively.

While it's true that Szeth's success had to do with people's ignorance about SurgeBinding, Kaladin never actually defeated Szeth.  And as for learning to use the Honor Blades, Moash was able to take to the air immediately after being handed the WindRunner blade.  So it's possible to learn the surges quickly.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

If you're referring to Kaladin's fight with Szeth, it's explicitly stated that Szeth let Kaladin kill him.  

Dalinar at the third Ideal managed to imprison one of the Unmade. The Unmade are supposedly on the same level as the StormFather, or at least in the same ballpark. And the storm father is the source of high storms. That speaks volumes to a BondSmith's power.  Not to mention the fact that Odium (Rayse) seemed to be frightened of Dalinar reaching his full potential.  If that doesn't indicate a BondSmoth's potential power, I don't know what does.

While it's true that Szeth's success had to do with people's ignorance about SurgeBinding, Kaladin never actually defeated Szeth.  And as for learning to use the Honor Blades, Moash was able to take to the air immediately after being handed the WindRunner blade.  So it's possible to learn the surges quickly.

 1.You realize a lightweaver imprisonment an unmade right? It got nothing to do with your powers. All you need a connection to the unmade and the right gemstone. 

2. Even if you did need to be a bondsmith so what? That doesn't give us any hint as there destructive power because it's not destroying any thing.

 

3. We see nothing szeth do that a 3 ideal radiante couldn't. 

4. Even moash admitted that an honor blade is inferior to a sprenblade.

5.Dalinar is not your typical bond Smith he can do things Ishar can't with his honor blade. So you really can't compare the two. 

 

6. Moash already knew how to use the surges from watch Kaliden .

 

[Letryx13]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 1.You realize a lightweaver imprisonment an unmade right? It got nothing to do with your powers. All you need a connection to the unmade and the right gemstone. 

2. Even if you did need to be a bondsmith so what? That doesn't give us any hint as there destructive power because it's not destroying any thing.

 

3. We see nothing szeth do that a 3 ideal radiante couldn't. 

4. Even moash admitted that an honor blade is inferior to a sprenblade.

5.Dalinar is not your typical bond Smith he can do things Ishar can't with his honor blade. So you really can't compare the two. 

 

6. Moash already knew how to use the surges from watch Kaliden .

 

1. We don't know how the LightWeaver imprisoned the unmade, or that they did so alone. The gemstones referencing the plan to imprison Bah-Ado-Mishram specifically mentioned requiring a BondSmith, Melishi.  It seems highly unlikely that Melishi's ability to imprison BAM came from the connection.  If connection is all that's required, almost anyone could work.

2. If SurgeBinding destroyed Ashyn, how much power would have been required? And if BondSmith's unchained weren't a danger, Honor wouldn't have enforced laws (which he did, according to the StormFather) preventing the misuse of SurgeBinding. Admittedly, this applies to pretty much all the orders (if he'd still been alive, the recreance probably wouldn't have happened) but out of all ten orders, why wouldn't the most powerful order be the most concerning?

3. Szeth single-handedly caused the collapse of the second largest kingdom on Roshar. The danger in the Honor Blades is that any lunatic can gain the powers of the Radiants by holding one.  Moash has been bad enough.  How much of a disaster would it have been if Sadeas or Amaram had one? Or just some thug would got their hands on one and went on a power trip. They could do a lot of damage before being stopped by the orders.

4. That's just in reference to the blade's fixed shape and the extra cost of stormlight. Being inefficient with Stormlight is the main weakness of the blades, but the SurgeBinding powers themselves are no different.  And the powers are the real threat, not the ability to change it into a spear or other weapon.

5. What is it that Dalinar can do that Ishar can't, and how do we know that Ishar can't do it?

6. Moash wouldn't have had much time to observe, if I understand the timeline of WoR correctly.  Maybe a few days at most. And that's all it took for him to learn to start using the surges.

[Frustration]

16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. Even moash admitted that an honor blade is inferior to a sprenblade.

Moash can't even summon the blade in under ten heartbeats. His word is not to be taken as law.

16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 5.Dalinar is not your typical bond Smith he can do things Ishar can't with his honor blade. So you really can't compare the two. 

Name one thing Dalinar can do Ishar can't, other than the visions which were a direct gift from Honor and not a Bondsmith power.

16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

6. Moash already knew how to use the surges from watch Kaliden .

Kaladin saw Szeth use lashings but it still took him hours to learn how to use them effectively.

12 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

2. If SurgeBinding destroyed Ashyn, how much power would have been required? And if BondSmith's unchained weren't a danger, Honor wouldn't have enforced laws (which he did, according to the StormFather) preventing the misuse of SurgeBinding.

The Cataclysm of Ashyn required Dawnshards.

[bmcclure7]

59 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Moash can't even summon the blade in under ten heartbeats. His word is not to be taken as law.

Name one thing Dalinar can do Ishar can't, other than the visions which were a direct gift from Honor and not a Bondsmith power.

Kaladin saw Szeth use lashings but it still took him hours to learn how to use them effectively.

The Cataclysm of Ashyn required Dawnshards.

1. That's exactly the point it takes 10 heartbeat to someone a honnor blade. As he said inferior.

 

2. Put in perpendicularities to the spiritual realm,  Recharge spheres.

3. No, he saw him use lashings a few times in combat when he was fighting for his life.  That's a lot different than Moash Watching and helping Kaldin experiments and expands his abilities

4.yea, your point? 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. That's exactly the point it takes 10 heartbeat to someone a honnor blade. As he said inferior.

Heralds could do it faster.

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Put in perpendicularities to the spiritual realm,  Recharge spheres.

Ishar did that.

8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. No, he saw him use lashings a few times in combat when he was fighting for his life.  That's a lot different than Moash Watching and helping Kaldin experiments and expands his abilities? 

Actually the only mention we get of that is that at some point Kaladin showed Moash them. All on screen learning is Kaladin alone or with Lopen rock and Sigzil.

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.yea, your point? 

Wasn't talking to you.