Future of the Honorblades

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Dalinar had a perpendicularity up and it didn't supercharge them all.

It also gave off light which Ishar's didn't.  

[NameIess]

59 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

It also gave off light which Ishar's didn't.  

Quote from RoW:

Quote

Ishtar stood and slammed his fists together. A perpendicularity opened, as it had before, releasing a powerful explosion of light.

RoW ch. 111 p. 1160

 

[Letryx13]

19 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.Never said it was the only dangerous one. Only that it was the one used to destroy Ashyn.

3. The skybreakers were not trying to stop him so. Effectively he was the only one. If the people he had been trying to kill had surge binders of there own he would have been killed probably is his first or second assasination.

4. That's an argument to destroy all surge binding not just Honnorblades.

5. Again I addressed this in several earlier post. 

7. You could say the same thing for soul casters, and fabrials in general should we destroy those also?

8. It not like have others in real much of a restraint on a evil surge binders (Look at Nale or the dustbringers). Should we be destroying all surge binders as well?

2. If the surges are dangerous then it makes no sense that the less powerful orders have less potential to do damage. But that's beside the point. All the blades are dangerous, the bondsmith blade is just the most dangerous one. 

3. I actually wonder why the SkyBreakers never tried to stop Szeth. It sounds like the sort of thing Nale would do, or at least investigate him.  But even with other radiants available, how much damage could a rogue Honorblade do?

4. The radiants have at least some checks on their powers, via their oaths. The honor blades have no real check on their power.  They are more dangerous by far.

5. It was a perpendicularity, as I and several other people have argued.  There's no reason to think that it wasn't a full perpendicularity.

7.  Soulcasting is incredibly powerful, as Jasnah proves on several occasions, but without the healing power an Honorblades also provide, any archer could defeat someone using a soul caster.  Someone using a soul casting fabrial has to touch whatever it is they are transforming.

8. Nale is mentally unstable, not evil. All the heralds are insane, to some degree. I don't think that's a fair comparison.  As for the DustBringers, their spren think that the humans are evil and they are fighting to avenge their friends and families who were killed during the recreance.  That's all a matter of perspective. 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

2. If the surges are dangerous then it makes no sense that the less powerful orders have less potential to do damage. But that's beside the point. All the blades are dangerous, the bondsmith blade is just the most dangerous one. 

3. I actually wonder why the SkyBreakers never tried to stop Szeth. It sounds like the sort of thing Nale would do, or at least investigate him.  But even with other radiants available, how much damage could a rogue Honorblade do?

4. The radiants have at least some checks on their powers, via their oaths. The honor blades have no real check on their power.  They are more dangerous by far.

5. It was a perpendicularity, as I and several other people have argued.  There's no reason to think that it wasn't a full perpendicularity.

7.  Soulcasting is incredibly powerful, as Jasnah proves on several occasions, but without the healing power an Honorblades also provide, any archer could defeat someone using a soul caster.  Someone using a soul casting fabrial has to touch whatever it is they are transforming.

8. Nale is mentally unstable, not evil. All the heralds are insane, to some degree. I don't think that's a fair comparison.  As for the DustBringers, their spren think that the humans are evil and they are fighting to avenge their friends and families who were killed during the recreance.  That's all a matter of perspective. 

1.  Could you explain your logic here cause I don't see it.

 

2.  No more than any rogue surge binder.

4.  As I've already said oaths don't really provide much checks on a radiance behavior.  And even if it was than you could easily just give them to people that already sworn oaths. ( Honestly this is what I would do, Would give them back to the heralds but there are little insane right now.  So for the time being if I had the honor blades  I would give them to the head of each order.  Imagine how awesome it would be if Kaliden also had the surge of regrowth). 

Alternatively just find really honorable people that you trust to give it to. I mean that's what the shin did for millennias without problems.  Jumping to the decision to destroy them is extreme.

 

3. Tell that to the skybreakers, Or the dust bringers.

4. I have already made several post on why this is not so. 

 

5. Fair point on the archers.

6. So, How is dangerously insaneSomehow less dangerous than someone who is dangerously evil?  A criminally insane schizophrenic, Who thinks hes buying people presents, but  In actuality is blowing people up,  It's not evil it doesn't mean hes  Any less dangerous. 

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

4. The radiants have at least some checks on their powers, via their oaths. The honor blades have no real check on their power.  They are more dangerous by far.

This point keeps getting brought up, and I don't really see why it justifies the Honorblade's destruction. Yeah, anyone could steal one and immediately use surges, but such a surgebinder could only be so dangerous (with the exception of the Bondsmith Honorblade of course). Radiants are already fighting for the enemy, and it's not like the oaths actually prevent Radiants from doing evil stuff.

[bmcclure7]

56 minutes ago, Nameless said:

This point keeps getting brought up, and I don't really see why it justifies the Honorblade's destruction. Yeah, anyone could steal one and immediately use surges, but such a surgebinder could only be so dangerous (with the exception of the Bondsmith Honorblade of course). Radiants are already fighting for the enemy, and it's not like the oaths actually prevent Radiants from doing evil stuff.

 And there's an easy fix simply give your honor blades to the heads of the knights radiance orders.  

Edited October 10, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Letryx13]

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 And there's an easy fix simply give your honor blades to the heads knights radiance orders.  

I've had that idea as well, actually. It wouldn't be a terrible solution, but only if there were existing (and trustworthy) radiants  to pass the blades on to. 

49 minutes ago, Nameless said:

This point keeps getting brought up, and I don't really see why it justifies the Honorblade's destruction. Yeah, anyone could steal one and immediately use surges, but such a surgebinder could only be so dangerous (with the exception of the Bondsmith Honorblade of course). Radiants are already fighting for the enemy, and it's not like the oaths actually prevent Radiants from doing evil stuff.

The SkyBreakers might be misguided, but there's a big difference between that and some nutcase doing whatever they please. When Kaladin acted on his selfish impulses that he knew were wrong, he nearly killed Syl and lost his powers.  The SkyBreakers aren't going around murdering people for fun or profit, they are at least holding to their beliefs.

Yes, the damage wouldn't be as severe with other Radiants to act as a check, but the HonorBlades could also be used to frame the orders for crimes they hadn't committed.  People on Roshar are only just starting to accept the Radiants again. It wouldn't take much to undo that.

58 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  Could you explain your logic here cause I don't see it.

 

2.  No more than any rogue surge binder.

4.  As I've already said oaths don't really provide much checks on a radiance behavior.  And even if it was than you could easily just give them to people that already sworn oaths. ( Honestly this is what I would do, Would give them back to the heralds but there are little insane right now.  So for the time being if I had the honor blades  I would give them to the head of each order.  Imagine how awesome it would be if Kaliden also had the surge of regrowth). 

Alternatively just find really honorable people that you trust to give it to. I mean that's what the shin did for millennias without problems.  Jumping to the decision to destroy them is extreme.

 

3. Tell that to the skybreakers, Or the dust bringers.

4. I have already made several post on why this is not so. 

 

5. Fair point on the archers.

6. So, How is dangerously insaneSomehow less dangerous than someone who is dangerously evil?  A criminally insane schizophrenic, Who thinks hes buying people presents, but  In actuality is blowing people up,  It's not evil it doesn't mean hes  Any less dangerous. 

1.  It's pretty simple actually. If all surgebinding is dangerous, why wouldn't the order that has access to the greatest surges (confirmed by the StormFather) be the most dangerous?  

2.  Again, the oaths offer at least some kind of check on the Radiant's powers.  That's pretty much the reason they exist in the first place.  I can't remember the line exactly, but I believe Nohadon thought surge binders were dangerous unless they were bound by precepts and laws.  When Kaladin started acting against them, he lost his powers.  The only way for Radiant's to go rogue is if they believe in what they are doing. The SkyBreakers prove that can be dangerous, but that's not as dangerous as a weapon that anyone can use and get the same level of power.

3.  Are the SkyBreakers or DustBringers murdering people for fun or profit? The SkyBreakers may be misguided, but there's at least some level of morality and logic to their actions.  The DustBringers may be acting out of revenge, but there's some reasoning there too.  They're untrusting of humans for the recreance, and feel their friends and families deserve justice.  They're misguided, not evil.

4. I admit they might be useful enough to keep around, if proper safety measure can be taken.  The problem is, Kaladin proves that even trustworthy and well meaning radiants can fail.  He might not have been willing to cooperate with Elhokar's assignation if he had know it would cost him Syl, but he was still willing to betray his oaths in the first place.  This is why I'm wondering if some other kind of safeguard could be created.

6. My point on Nalan was that his madness makes it difficult to compare him to other radiants such as the SkyBreakers and DustBringers and their oaths. Don't forget the Nalan himself also has a high spren, not just an Honor Blade.  But you are actually making my point for me.  What would happen if that criminally insane schizophrenic had an Honor Blade?

[cometaryorbit]

The Skybreakers and Dustbringers are following a code, yeah. But I'm not sure that makes them any less dangerous.

The Orders were created to limit the danger of Surgebinders, sure, but that seems less successful now than it was historically. Back when the Orders were a long-term social structure, they didn't have one and a half Orders (and specifically the most destructive Orders!) fighting for Odium. The Skybreakers seem originally to have been police for the Radiants - the stability of the structure wasn't purely based on the Oaths themselves.

-

Kaladin didn't outright defeat Szeth, yeah - the fight didn't go to a finish because Szeth gave up - but Kaladin was at least matching him despite *way* less experience. 

Against a 4th ideal Radiant, with living Plate, the fight would be completely one-sided in the Radiant's favor.

I'd say a 4th ideal modern Skybreaker or rogue Dustbringer is a much greater threat than anyone with a non-Bondsmith Blade could be.

[NameIess]

32 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Yes, the damage wouldn't be as severe with other Radiants to act as a check, but the HonorBlades could also be used to frame the orders for crimes they hadn't committed.  People on Roshar are only just starting to accept the Radiants again. It wouldn't take much to undo that.

Rogue Radiants could commit similar crimes, and there will be rogue Radiants eventually. If their place on Roshar is as fragile as you imply, Honorblades aren't the issue.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I've had that idea as well, actually. It wouldn't be a terrible solution, but only if there were existing (and trustworthy) radiants  to pass the blades on to. 

The SkyBreakers might be misguided, but there's a big difference between that and some nutcase doing whatever they please. When Kaladin acted on his selfish impulses that he knew were wrong, he nearly killed Syl and lost his powers.  The SkyBreakers aren't going around murdering people for fun or profit, they are at least holding to their beliefs.

Yes, the damage wouldn't be as severe with other Radiants to act as a check, but the HonorBlades could also be used to frame the orders for crimes they hadn't committed.  People on Roshar are only just starting to accept the Radiants again. It wouldn't take much to undo that.

1.  It's pretty simple actually. If all surgebinding is dangerous, why wouldn't the order that has access to the greatest surges (confirmed by the StormFather) be the most dangerous?  

2.  Again, the oaths offer at least some kind of check on the Radiant's powers.  That's pretty much the reason they exist in the first place.  I can't remember the line exactly, but I believe Nohadon thought surge binders were dangerous unless they were bound by precepts and laws.  When Kaladin started acting against them, he lost his powers.  The only way for Radiant's to go rogue is if they believe in what they are doing. The SkyBreakers prove that can be dangerous, but that's not as dangerous as a weapon that anyone can use and get the same level of power.

3.  Are the SkyBreakers or DustBringers murdering people for fun or profit? The SkyBreakers may be misguided, but there's at least some level of morality and logic to their actions.  The DustBringers may be acting out of revenge, but there's some reasoning there too.  They're untrusting of humans for the recreance, and feel their friends and families deserve justice.  They're misguided, not evil.

4. I admit they might be useful enough to keep around, if proper safety measure can be taken.  The problem is, Kaladin proves that even trustworthy and well meaning radiants can fail.  He might not have been willing to cooperate with Elhokar's assignation if he had know it would cost him Syl, but he was still willing to betray his oaths in the first place.  This is why I'm wondering if some other kind of safeguard could be created.

6. My point on Nalan was that his madness makes it difficult to compare him to other radiants such as the SkyBreakers and DustBringers and their oaths. Don't forget the Nalan himself also has a high spren, not just an Honor Blade.  But you are actually making my point for me.  What would happen if that criminally insane schizophrenic had an Honor Blade?

6. Nalan  Has an honor blade, But he doesn't use it because he has a bond with a Spren.   Having this bond hasn't stopped him from siding with odium,  Is or from killing children for that matter. YesI know that Nale is insane and thinks hes doing good  But I don't see how this makes a difference. 

 

3.  The reasons why they're killing people are Irrelevant. I don't understand how you think it changes anything their reasons.  A dangerous evil person is As dangerous as a dangerous deluded person. If anything the dangerous deluded person is more dangerous. 

 

2.  To be fair it's not the same level of power not even close it is  At best 3rd ideal. As the nights radiance expands it'll become less and less relevant as we get more 4th and 5th ideal knights radiance.

 

4.  True but then again as we see if the skybrakers It's also possible for them to Delude themselves into thinking that they're right. Truth is giving anyone the power of any kind comes with considerable risk.

1.  I mean we don't know his definition of great doesn't necessarily mean destructive. I would say that feruchemy abilities are Great than alomantic ones  Even though the latter is far more destructive. 

 

 I think we have enough knight radiance now that we could distribute the honor blades to them.  

 

Alternatively I thought about maybe giving the honor blades to Squires. Right now there's a shortage of right knight's radiance  So using the armor blades to augment the ranks might be the best option at least for now. 

 

 

 An argument could also be made that having an unbound surge binder Might be useful in a time of war.  Especially since the bond the honor blame can be severed without killing a Spren. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Letryx13]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The Skybreakers and Dustbringers are following a code, yeah. But I'm not sure that makes them any less dangerous.

Less dangerous that a completely unstable and uncontrolled power. The only reason they're dangerous is because they're sworn to follow someone who is insane. Besides, if and when peace is established it's very likely they'll act as a policing or border regulation force. That's not the same as an unknown quantity with powers described as being "more that men do not understand and can not".

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The Orders were created to limit the danger of Surgebinders, sure, but that seems less successful now than it was historically. Back when the Orders were a long-term social structure, they didn't have one and a half Orders (and specifically the most destructive Orders!) fighting for Odium. The Skybreakers seem originally to have been police for the Radiants - the stability of the structure wasn't purely based on the Oaths themselves.

How successful was it historically? The orders had internal conflict before the recreance.  Honor, the gemstones left behind by the ancient radiants, and even the Invisagers all confirm the orders were not perfectly harmonious.  Granted, the recreance changed things in a big way for the DustBringers (who I suspect will still be stubborn, despite the truth of that being revealed) but what will the SkyBreakers do after peace is established? It seems highly unlikely that they will continue to wage war on human kingdoms.  Besides, we know that they still work to some degree. When Kaladin went against his oaths, he lost his powers.

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Kaladin didn't outright defeat Szeth, yeah - the fight didn't go to a finish because Szeth gave up - but Kaladin was at least matching him despite *way* less experience. 

Perhaps, but Kaladin is described as being the most skill WindRunner when it comes to flying and possibly fighting.  Yes, Szeth is also extremely skilled, but that's the point. A highly skill fighter with an HonorBlade could likely only be taken down by a Radiant of comparable skill. And to quote Stormblessed, "Being a radiant isn't so much about your strength or skill. But about your heart."  Most radiants probably wouldn't be able to defeat someone at Szeth's level. And if they weren't WindRunners, they'd have a hard time catching him. Or if the person had the LightWeaver blade, they'd have a hard time finding them in the first place.

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Against a 4th ideal Radiant, with living Plate, the fight would be completely one-sided in the Radiant's favor.

That actually is something I've wondered about. If it's possible for heralds to have plate. Aside from Nale, who probably has one as a SkyBreaker. It seems strange that they wouldn't.  But depending on the matchup, plate might not help much.  Szeth and Kaladin both defeated multiple shard bearers with plate. Obviously they didn't have surgebinding, but that might not help someone in disguise with the LightWeaver blade, or catch someone with the WindRunner blade without flying themselves.  

Radiants are definitely a check on the HonorBlades power, to be sure.  But as I constantly say, how much damage could someone with an HonorBlade do before Radiants arrived to stop them?

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'd say a 4th ideal modern Skybreaker or rogue Dustbringer is a much greater threat than anyone with a non-Bondsmith Blade could be.

DustBringers are somewhat concerning, I admit. But I could see them going either way. I'm curious to see what the dead-eye Ash spren say when they find out what their fellows are rebelling.  And I'm still not exactly sure how a radiant can truly go rogue unless they believe in what they're doing. I find it hard to believe someone that would kill people for fun or money would be chose as a radiant, even by an Ash spren. 

As for the SkyBreakers, they're only dangerous at the moment because of the war itself.  Until the laws they enforce are at the same level of brutality as the Final Empire on Scadrial, I wouldn't consider them as dangerous.

15 hours ago, Nameless said:

Rogue Radiants could commit similar crimes, and there will be rogue Radiants eventually. If their place on Roshar is as fragile as you imply, Honorblades aren't the issue.

Radiants may very well choose to go their own way eventually, apart from the bulk of the orders. That seems likely.  But how likely are such people to start attacking people for no reason or for profit?

Their situation is fragile, as commented by both Kaladin and Rlain in RoW, but you're correct the HonorBlades aren't the problem there. I just think that's an additional risk to them, aside from the possibility of them falling into the wrong hands.

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

6. Nalan  Has an honor blade, But he doesn't use it because he has a bond with a Spren.   Having this bond hasn't stopped him from siding with odium,  Is or from killing children for that matter. YesI know that Nale is insane and thinks hes doing good  But I don't see how this makes a difference. 

3.  The reasons why they're killing people are Irrelevant. I don't understand how you think it changes anything their reasons.  A dangerous evil person is As dangerous as a dangerous deluded person. If anything the dangerous deluded person is more dangerous. 

2.  To be fair it's not the same level of power not even close it is  At best 3rd ideal. As the nights radiance expands it'll become less and less relevant as we get more 4th and 5th ideal knights radiance.

4.  True but then again as we see if the skybrakers It's also possible for them to Delude themselves into thinking that they're right. Truth is giving anyone the power of any kind comes with considerable risk.

1.  I mean we don't know his definition of great doesn't necessarily mean destructive. I would say that feruchemy abilities are Great than alomantic ones  Even though the latter is far more destructive. 

 I think we have enough knight radiance now that we could distribute the honor blades to them.  

Alternatively I thought about maybe giving the honor blades to Squires. Right now there's a shortage of right knight's radiance  So using the armor blades to augment the ranks might be the best option at least for now. 

 An argument could also be made that having an unbound surge binder Might be useful in a time of war.  Especially since the bond the honor blame can be severed without killing a Spren. 

6. Nalan is insane, which is why he believes in what he is doing. But the heralds' insanity is not a natural madness, as confirmed in RoW.  I have my issues with Nale's brutality, believe me I do, but that kind of madness makes it hard to compare motivation to someone who is of sound mind.  Jasnah has also shown that she's willing to kill people :for the greater good" (don't get me started on her) but even still, neither of them are just killing people for the fun of it.

3. Kaladin and Syl's conversations in Oathbringer confirm the oaths are largely about perception of right and wrong and adhering to principles.  And Dalinar's vision with Nohadon also supports the idea of principles being what someone gives up, not what they gain.

2. The StormFather confirms that Jezrien's HonorBlade makes someone "A WindRunner unoathed, and more. More that men do not understand and can not". We still don't know what that means, but I'd be willing to bet there's more power to the HonorBlades than we've seen yet.  And honestly, I've always found it strange that the Heradlds don't have shard plate.  Dalinar even assumes that a StoneWard in a vision is a herald.

4. Giving someone power comes with risk. Giving someone power with no checks against that power comes with far greater risk.

1. Feruchemy seems plenty destructive, if used in the right way.  And even if a BondSmith could directly destroy as much as say a DustBringer could, one could still cause plenty of damage indirectly. Imagine if the StormFather was imprisoned the same was as an unmade.

Bridge Four was attacked in Oathbringer to get the HonorBlade. On Roshar, thousands of soldiers have thrown themselves at shard bearers to try and win them, maybe millions.  How many would throw themselves trying to get an Honor Blade?

Bridger Four were squires when they lost Jezrien's HonorBlade.

What job would an unbound surgebinder be able to do that radiant couldn't and any decent person would want to be done?

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Letryx13
Misspelling

[NameIess]

15 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Radiants may very well choose to go their own way eventually, apart from the bulk of the orders. That seems likely.  But how likely are such people to start attacking people for no reason or for profit?

How likely is someone with an Honorblade to do so? If they wanted profit, it’d be far easier to sell the Honorblade to the Ghostbloods, Odium’s forces, or some other organization. Maybe  a crazy person could get their hands on a Blade and start killing people, but a Radiant could do the same thing. A Skybreaker could swear to follow the ideals of anarchy and begin working to destroy the government. A Lightweaver could do basically anything as long as they were truthful to their spren. Yes, Windrunners probably couldn’t do something like that, but there’s a reason that Nohadon wishes all spren are as discerning as them.

Quote

Their situation is fragile, as commented by both Kaladin and Rlain in RoW, but you're correct the HonorBlades aren't the problem there. I just think that's an additional risk to them, aside from the possibility of them falling into the wrong hands.

But is that risk worth destroying them over? That’s no easy task, and the Honorblades are an incredibly powerful tool in the right hands, capable of granting Radiant powers even under suppression fabrials. Yes, they need to be guarded carefully, but Rosharans have plenty of experience using Shards that can be easily stolen if the bearer dies.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

How likely is someone with an Honorblade to do so? If they wanted profit, it’d be far easier to sell the Honorblade to the Ghostbloods, Odium’s forces, or some other organization. Maybe  a crazy person could get their hands on a Blade and start killing people, but a Radiant could do the same thing. A Skybreaker could swear to follow the ideals of anarchy and begin working to destroy the government. A Lightweaver could do basically anything as long as they were truthful to their spren. Yes, Windrunners probably couldn’t do something like that, but there’s a reason that Nohadon wishes all spren are as discerning as them.

Depending on how sane the person with the HonorBlade was, I'd say it could be very likely.  True, someone could try to sell it, but it'd be hard to try to sell an HonorBlade without word getting out, and in that case, I'd just try to kill the person instead of buying it.  Even radiants have to sleep.  Besides, from what the books have described, people selling even dead-eye blades seems very very rare.  Transactions like that, even underground ones, are bound to attract attention.  And even if it was sold, then what? Some new power crazy person willing to spend a fortune on the blade has it. Why would they be willing to spend that much money on such a weapon?

I doubt SkyBreakers could swear to anarchy. Laws are fundamentally about order, so that seems a bit of a stretch.  Even Szeth isn't planning on wiping out Shinovar completely, just cleansing it of the people who wrongfully convicted him. The second ideal for them is to seek justice and let it guide them.  True, they could have a very twisted sense of justice, but according to Nale, the SkyBreakers are about consistency. And it seems unlikely the high spren would choose radiants who would do such things. Aside from the ash spren, the spren have chosen well in regards to radiants. (I don't consider the SkyBreakers to be bad, just misguided). 

This extends to the LightWeavers and Cryptics too.  With the possible exception of Hoid (the jury is still out on him), the Cryptics seem to have chosen well with their radiants.  True, being honest about themselves to their spren is essential to the LightWeavers, but Pattern and Shallan prove even the Cryptics try to help guide their radiants. When Shallan was handing out food in Kholinar, Pattern questioned why she was doing so, when it wasn't part of their mission.  He realized she was lying to herself too much.  I think worthiness is a big factor for spren in choosing their radiant.  Except for the ash spren seeking revenge, perhaps. 

I am actually curious about what would happen if a Radiant truly went insane.  Full on delusional insanity, like Taln.  Venli's mother recovered from what sounds like Alzheimer's, which suggests some kinds of mental illness isn't applicable to radiants, but obviously Kaladin proves other kinds are.  That's one I don't really have an answer for. Nale is crazy, but even in his madness, he follows the precepts of his oaths, doing what he believes is right. He was stubborn in refusing to acknowledge the desolations return, but he eventually realized he had been wrong.  I don't think we have enough context to answer what happens if a radiant truly goes insane.

Nohadon said that in reference to his belief that the surgebinders needed rules and regulations. They were probably pretty chaotic before the oaths.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

But is that risk worth destroying them over? That’s no easy task, and the Honorblades are an incredibly powerful tool in the right hands, capable of granting Radiant powers even under suppression fabrials. Yes, they need to be guarded carefully, but Rosharans have plenty of experience using Shards that can be easily stolen if the bearer dies.

I admit that they might be worth hanging on to.  To heal old wounds and teach people how to use the powers when there aren't available radiants to learn.  I just think they need to have an extreme amount of security before it's safe to do so.  One idea I had was to find a way to bind the HonorBlades to a specific place, making it impossible to move them too far from it.  That seems like something a BondSmith could do, maybe even have both Dalinar and Navani do so together, to prevent a single BondSmith from being able to undo it.  And Szeth proved quite thoroughly how superior the Honorblades are to dead plate and blades. True, few people knew about surgebinding at the time, but he still managed to decimate three shard bearers and "half an army" when killing the king of Herdaz.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Depending on how sane the person with the HonorBlade was, I'd say it could be very likely.  True, someone could try to sell it, but it'd be hard to try to sell an HonorBlade without word getting out, and in that case, I'd just try to kill the person instead of buying it.  Even radiants have to sleep.  Besides, from what the books have described, people selling even dead-eye blades seems very very rare.  Transactions like that, even underground ones, are bound to attract attention.  And even if it was sold, then what? Some new power crazy person willing to spend a fortune on the blade has it. Why would they be willing to spend that much money on such a weapon?

A crazy person would likely be incapable of formulating and executing a plan to actually steal an Honorblade. The most likely scenario in which an Honorblade is stolen is one orchestrated by Odium's forces, the Ghostbloods, or some other competent gorup, similar to what happened when the Honorblade was stolen from bridge 4.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I doubt SkyBreakers could swear to anarchy. Laws are fundamentally about order, so that seems a bit of a stretch.  Even Szeth isn't planning on wiping out Shinovar completely, just cleansing it of the people who wrongfully convicted him. The second ideal for them is to seek justice and let it guide them.  True, they could have a very twisted sense of justice, but according to Nale, the SkyBreakers are about consistency. And it seems unlikely the high spren would choose radiants who would do such things. Aside from the ash spren, the spren have chosen well in regards to radiants. (I don't consider the SkyBreakers to be bad, just misguided). 

A Skyrbreaker could decide that the ideals of anarchy are the correct, and seek to enforce their codes. Or they could decide that one form of government (communism, perhaps) is the best, and attempt to make all nations follow it. Or they could swear to follow someone like Taravangian, and then we have pretty much the same situation as Szeth except with a full Radiant.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

This extends to the LightWeavers and Cryptics too.  With the possible exception of Hoid (the jury is still out on him), the Cryptics seem to have chosen well with their radiants.  True, being honest about themselves to their spren is essential to the LightWeavers, but Pattern and Shallan prove even the Cryptics try to help guide their radiants. When Shallan was handing out food in Kholinar, Pattern questioned why she was doing so, when it wasn't part of their mission.  He realized she was lying to herself too much.  I think worthiness is a big factor for spren in choosing their radiant.  Except for the ash spren seeking revenge, perhaps. 

A Radiant can be completely honest while also being a serial killer. Truths don't have to be positive.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Nohadon said that in reference to his belief that the surgebinders needed rules and regulations. They were probably pretty chaotic before the oaths.

And while the oaths do help, they still don't stop someone who truly believes they are in the right from using their powers in terrible ways.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I admit that they might be worth hanging on to.  To heal old wounds and teach people how to use the powers when there aren't available radiants to learn.  I just think they need to have an extreme amount of security before it's safe to do so.  One idea I had was to find a way to bind the HonorBlades to a specific place, making it impossible to move them too far from it.  That seems like something a BondSmith could do, maybe even have both Dalinar and Navani do so together, to prevent a single BondSmith from being able to undo it.  And Szeth proved quite thoroughly how superior the Honorblades are to dead plate and blades. True, few people knew about surgebinding at the time, but he still managed to decimate three shard bearers and "half an army" when killing the king of Herdaz.

I don't think that a Bondsmith stealing an Honorblade is something that needs to be worried about. And again, while Szeth was extremely effective, he also had the advantage of years of training in all ten surges, and no one knew about Radiants. Nowadays, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a monarch without a Radiant or two guarding them, and even common soldiers have training in dealing with Surgebinders. Yes, they're dangerous, but such extreme methods don't need to be taken unless Honorblades turn out to be far more powerful than they currently appear. bodyguards for whoever's using it, being kept in a secure location under the care of those who know how to use them otherwise.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Less dangerous that a completely unstable and uncontrolled power. The only reason they're dangerous is because they're sworn to follow someone who is insane. Besides, if and when peace is established it's very likely they'll act as a policing or border regulation force. That's not the same as an unknown quantity with powers described as being "more that men do not understand and can not".

How successful was it historically? The orders had internal conflict before the recreance.  Honor, the gemstones left behind by the ancient radiants, and even the Invisagers all confirm the orders were not perfectly harmonious.  Granted, the recreance changed things in a big way for the DustBringers (who I suspect will still be stubborn, despite the truth of that being revealed) but what will the SkyBreakers do after peace is established? It seems highly unlikely that they will continue to wage war on human kingdoms.  Besides, we know that they still work to some degree. When Kaladin went against his oaths, he lost his powers.

Perhaps, but Kaladin is described as being the most skill WindRunner when it comes to flying and possibly fighting.  Yes, Szeth is also extremely skilled, but that's the point. A highly skill fighter with an HonorBlade could likely only be taken down by a Radiant of comparable skill. And to quote Stormblessed, "Being a radiant isn't so much about your strength or skill. But about your heart."  Most radiants probably wouldn't be able to defeat someone at Szeth's level. And if they weren't WindRunners, they'd have a hard time catching him. Or if the person had the LightWeaver blade, they'd have a hard time finding them in the first place.

That actually is something I've wondered about. If it's possible for heralds to have plate. Aside from Nale, who probably has one as a SkyBreaker. It seems strange that they wouldn't.  But depending on the matchup, plate might not help much.  Szeth and Kaladin both defeated multiple shard bearers with plate. Obviously they didn't have surgebinding, but that might not help someone in disguise with the LightWeaver blade, or catch someone with the WindRunner blade without flying themselves.  

Radiants are definitely a check on the HonorBlades power, to be sure.  But as I constantly say, how much damage could someone with an HonorBlade do before Radiants arrived to stop them?

DustBringers are somewhat concerning, I admit. But I could see them going either way. I'm curious to see what the dead-eye Ash spren say when they find out what their fellows are rebelling.  And I'm still not exactly sure how a radiant can truly go rogue unless they believe in what they're doing. I find it hard to believe someone that would kill people for fun or money would be chose as a radiant, even by an Ash spren. 

As for the SkyBreakers, they're only dangerous at the moment because of the war itself.  Until the laws they enforce are at the same level of brutality as the Final Empire on Scadrial, I wouldn't consider them as dangerous.

Radiants may very well choose to go their own way eventually, apart from the bulk of the orders. That seems likely.  But how likely are such people to start attacking people for no reason or for profit?

Their situation is fragile, as commented by both Kaladin and Rlain in RoW, but you're correct the HonorBlades aren't the problem there. I just think that's an additional risk to them, aside from the possibility of them falling into the wrong hands.

6. Nalan is insane, which is why he believes in what he is doing. But the heralds' insanity is not a natural madness, as confirmed in RoW.  I have my issues with Nale's brutality, believe me I do, but that kind of madness makes it hard to compare motivation to someone who is of sound mind.  Jasnah has also shown that she's willing to kill people :for the greater good" (don't get me started on her) but even still, neither of them are just killing people for the fun of it.

3. Kaladin and Syl's conversations in Oathbringer confirm the oaths are largely about perception of right and wrong and adhering to principles.  And Dalinar's vision with Nohadon also supports the idea of principles being what someone gives up, not what they gain.

2. The StormFather confirms that Jezrien's HonorBlade makes someone "A WindRunner unoathed, and more. More that men do not understand and can not". We still don't know what that means, but I'd be willing to bet there's more power to the HonorBlades than we've seen yet.  And honestly, I've always found it strange that the Heradlds don't have shard plate.  Dalinar even assumes that a StoneWard in a vision is a herald.

4. Giving someone power comes with risk. Giving someone power with no checks against that power comes with far greater risk.

1. Feruchemy seems plenty destructive, if used in the right way.  And even if a BondSmith could directly destroy as much as say a DustBringer could, one could still cause plenty of damage indirectly. Imagine if the StormFather was imprisoned the same was as an unmade.

Bridge Four was attacked in Oathbringer to get the HonorBlade. On Roshar, thousands of soldiers have thrown themselves at shard bearers to try and win them, maybe millions.  How many would throw themselves trying to get an Honor Blade?

Bridger Four were squires when they lost Jezrien's HonorBlade.

What job would an unbound surgebinder be able to do that radiant couldn't and any decent person would want to be done?

 

 

Guess what the stormfather meant by "something more " is just speculation. No other wielder of an honnor blade has become "something more" . Remember also that the stormfather is a lier we have no reason to trust him.

1. Is there anyone he kills for the fun of it even like this that is in any kindof position to steal a honnor blade?

2. The shin kept the honnor blades safe for thousands of years so there has to be a way to keep them safe and in the right hands.

3. There are other ways to put check on someone with power.

4. You contradict yourself.  You say that the honnor blades our to powerful yet your worried that a powerless soldier is going to kill the wielder and take the blade?

5. Thats kind of the point There are a lot of indecent jobs in war. Assasination for one, and there is undercover sabotage, ordering airal numbering ww2 style

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Letryx13]

 

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Guess what the stormfather meant by "something more " is just speculation. No other wielder of an honnor blade has become "something more" . Remember also that the stormfather is a lier we have no reason to trust him.

What has the StormFather lied about?  He's been mistaken about some things, but as far as I know he hasn't outright lied. And we've only seen three wielders of HonorBlades so far. Discounting Ishar, that leaves Szeth and Moash, two whole examples. And who knows how exactly such powers are obtained.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Is there anyone he kills for the fun of it even like this that is in any kindof position to steal a honnor blade?

Sadeas did, and had the power and brains to pull off something like that.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. The shin kept the honnor blades safe for thousands of years so there has to be a way to keep them safe and in the right hands.

Nobody knew the Shinn had them. And the radiants destroyed so much knowledge of the past that almost nobody understood what the honorblades even were.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. There are other ways to put check on someone with power.

Aside from holding someone they care about hostage, or using so many radiants they make the honor blade redundant, how do you keep that kind of power in check?

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. You contradict yourself.  You say that the honnor blades our to powerful yet your worried that a powerless soldier is going to kill the wielder and take the blade?

Even radiants have to sleep. Or they could run out of stormlight. Or just be caught by surprise at the wrong time. Bridge four had Jezrien's blade stolen from them, didn't they?

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

5. Thats kind of the point There are a lot of indecent jobs in war. Assasination for one, and there is undercover sabotage, ordering airal numbering ww2 style

I believe the codes that Dalinar follows include something about not ordering something you wouldn't do yourself.  If an assassination is needed badly enough that radiants would approve of it, then they should be able to carry it out.  I don't think that would happen often, cases like Rashek on Scadrial for example, but they could happen.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

A crazy person would likely be incapable of formulating and executing a plan to actually steal an Honorblade. The most likely scenario in which an Honorblade is stolen is one orchestrated by Odium's forces, the Ghostbloods, or some other competent gorup, similar to what happened when the Honorblade was stolen from bridge 4.

Which means the Honorblade ends up in the wrong hands, one way or another. This is my entire point. 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

A Skyrbreaker could decide that the ideals of anarchy are the correct, and seek to enforce their codes. Or they could decide that one form of government (communism, perhaps) is the best, and attempt to make all nations follow it. Or they could swear to follow someone like Taravangian, and then we have pretty much the same situation as Szeth except with a full Radiant.

Based on the descriptions of the SkyBreakers and their philosophies, I find it to be very difficult to believe that they could think anarchy is correct. Anarchy is the exact opposite of codes and laws.  Swearing to someone like Taravangian on the other hand, I admit that's much more likely, and is basically what's happened with them and Nale already.  But on the other hand, what if that oath interfered with their oaths to seek justice and let it guide them? Unless they believe that there is justice in their actions, they may still be violating their oaths by doing something evil, even if they've sworn to obey someone like Taravangian. The reason they are able to fight on the singer's side is because they can see the validity of the Singer's cause.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

A Radiant can be completely honest while also being a serial killer. Truths don't have to be positive.

The truths we've seen so far are pretty much all negative, that's the entire reason Shallan has lied to herself for so long. In facts that's arguably the entire basis of lying to oneself., and the order of LightWeavers as a whole. There still needs to be a basis of honor and worthiness in the radiant. Shallan/Radiant may have killed Ialai, but she was a threat at the time.  If Shallan had killed Kelek when she knew it was wrong, that might have been enough of a lie to herself to kill Pattern. Or start her on the path toward killing him.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

And while the oaths do help, they still don't stop someone who truly believes they are in the right from using their powers in terrible ways.

If you mean Kaladin, even before the fight in the arena, Kaladin knew that assassinating Sadeas was wrong. He couldn't explain it to himself why he felt that way, but he knew it. He mulled the idea over in the tavern before meeting Graves.  He knew things like that were wrong, he was just willing to ignore that because of how Elhokar treated him.  That's why he lost his powers over it.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I don't think that a Bondsmith stealing an Honorblade is something that needs to be worried about. And again, while Szeth was extremely effective, he also had the advantage of years of training in all ten surges, and no one knew about Radiants. Nowadays, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a monarch without a Radiant or two guarding them, and even common soldiers have training in dealing with Surgebinders. Yes, they're dangerous, but such extreme methods don't need to be taken unless Honorblades turn out to be far more powerful than they currently appear. bodyguards for whoever's using it, being kept in a secure location under the care of those who know how to use them otherwise.

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well. I meant, that way, even if someone stole the BondSmith blade, they wouldn't be able to undo the protection binding the blade in place.  You'd need at least two BondSmiths to undo the protection. Admittedly, BondSmith powers are so complex that it's hard to believe a thief could learn to undo them anyway, but still, if someone being taught how to use the blade were tempted, they'd be unable to steal it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Honorblades did turn out to be more powerful. The StormFather confirmed Jezrien's HonorBlade makes someone "A WindRunner unoathed, and more. More that men do not understand and can not". I suspect there's more to them than we've yet seen. But that's unimportant. And while I expect WindRunners will probably find future purpose as bodyguards after the war, an unexpected surgebinder could still be a huge threat.  

Someone who stole an honor blade might not necessarily try to use it right away. They could take some time to learn how to use the powers.  Yes, people know about radiants, but soliders or guards or regular people suddenly finding themselves attacked by someone they think is a radiant is still going to be shocking. That kind of confusion was what Szeth relied on. I know that soldiers have trained to deal with regals and perhaps some kinds of fuzed, but how hard would it be for someone wielding an Honorblade to overwhelm soldiers being attacked by powers they weren't expecting? If the honorblade wielder were competent, how many people would it take to defeat them? Even at the battle of Narak, when Szeth's abilities were less of a surprise, he overwhelmed dozens of soldiers. 

Love the arguments, guys. It feels great to be able to flesh out these kinds of thoughts.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Based on the descriptions of the SkyBreakers and their philosophies, I find it to be very difficult to believe that they could think anarchy is correct. Anarchy is the exact opposite of codes and laws.  Swearing to someone like Taravangian on the other hand, I admit that's much more likely, and is basically what's happened with them and Nale already.  But on the other hand, what if that oath interfered with their oaths to seek justice and let it guide them? Unless they believe that there is justice in their actions, they may still be violating their oaths by doing something evil, even if they've sworn to obey someone like Taravangian. The reason they are able to fight on the singer's side is because they can see the validity of the Singer's cause.

You're probably right on the anarchy part, but the point I'm trying to make is that even the most unambiguous oaths don't prevent evil actions. If someone truly believed that Taravangian's ideals were right, then they could follow it. (Besides, 'justice' is malleable. Case in point: Skybreakers could swear to the pirate code.)

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

The truths we've seen so far are pretty much all negative, that's the entire reason Shallan has lied to herself for so long. In facts that's arguably the entire basis of lying to oneself., and the order of LightWeavers as a whole. There still needs to be a basis of honor and worthiness in the radiant. Shallan/Radiant may have killed Ialai, but she was a threat at the time.  If Shallan had killed Kelek when she knew it was wrong, that might have been enough of a lie to herself to kill Pattern. Or start her on the path toward killing him.

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I meant that the impact the oaths have on a Radiant does not have to be positive. And there doesn't need to be any basis of honor/worthiness, you just have to be honest with yourself. Shallan killing Kelek would have threatened her bond not because it was wrong, but because she would have done it out of desire to hide from the truth. It is possible to be an honest villain.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well. I meant, that way, even if someone stole the BondSmith blade, they wouldn't be able to undo the protection binding the blade in place.  You'd need at least two BondSmiths to undo the protection. Admittedly, BondSmith powers are so complex that it's hard to believe a thief could learn to undo them anyway, but still, if someone being taught how to use the blade were tempted, they'd be unable to steal it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Honorblades did turn out to be more powerful. The StormFather confirmed Jezrien's HonorBlade makes someone "A WindRunner unoathed, and more. More that men do not understand and can not". I suspect there's more to them than we've yet seen. But that's unimportant. And while I expect WindRunners will probably find future purpose as bodyguards after the war, an unexpected surgebinder could still be a huge threat.  

Someone who stole an honor blade might not necessarily try to use it right away. They could take some time to learn how to use the powers.  Yes, people know about radiants, but soliders or guards or regular people suddenly finding themselves attacked by someone they think is a radiant is still going to be shocking. That kind of confusion was what Szeth relied on. I know that soldiers have trained to deal with regals and perhaps some kinds of fuzed, but how hard would it be for someone wielding an Honorblade to overwhelm soldiers being attacked by powers they weren't expecting? If the honorblade wielder were competent, how many people would it take to defeat them? Even at the battle of Narak, when Szeth's abilities were less of a surprise, he overwhelmed dozens of soldiers. 

Unexpected Surgebinders can pop up anyways. Skybreakers and lightweaving fused to name a few examples. And yeah, Honorblades will be extremely useful against normal soldiers, but the proliferation of Surgebinders will keep them from being too dangerous. Moash, for example, hasn't been causing mass chaos on every battlefront he's been on.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Nameless

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/11/2022 at 9:13 AM, Letryx13 said:

Less dangerous that a completely unstable and uncontrolled power. The only reason they're dangerous is because they're sworn to follow someone who is insane. Besides, if and when peace is established it's very likely they'll act as a policing or border regulation force. That's not the same as an unknown quantity with powers described as being "more that men do not understand and can not".

How successful was it historically? The orders had internal conflict before the recreance.  Honor, the gemstones left behind by the ancient radiants, and even the Invisagers all confirm the orders were not perfectly harmonious.  Granted, the recreance changed things in a big way for the DustBringers (who I suspect will still be stubborn, despite the truth of that being revealed) but what will the SkyBreakers do after peace is established? It seems highly unlikely that they will continue to wage war on human kingdoms.  Besides, we know that they still work to some degree. When Kaladin went against his oaths, he lost his powers.

Perhaps, but Kaladin is described as being the most skill WindRunner when it comes to flying and possibly fighting.  Yes, Szeth is also extremely skilled, but that's the point. A highly skill fighter with an HonorBlade could likely only be taken down by a Radiant of comparable skill. And to quote Stormblessed, "Being a radiant isn't so much about your strength or skill. But about your heart."  Most radiants probably wouldn't be able to defeat someone at Szeth's level.

If "men do not understand, and cannot" I am not sure that regular humans can actually in practice use those greater powers.

I am ... skeptical that any such powers are actually all that impressive, as Kalak in the Prelude sounds like he's died multiple times to thunderclasts. But even if they are, I don't think some random person who steals a Honorblade can use them. Szeth trained with and used an Honorblade for ages, he doesn't display anything super special.

I am much less confident in the Skybreakers being ultimately a positive force or returning to their historic mission. It could happen but I don't think it's anything like guaranteed.

I think Honorblade-Szeth might have a chance against a less-skilled-than-Kaladin 3rd ideal Windrunner or Skybreaker, but effectively no healing would make it super hard. He could escape due to superior skill, but winning a fight, I doubt.

Against a 4th ideal I can't see the Radiant losing, I think the power disparity becomes too huge for skill to compensate.

Edited October 12, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Letryx13]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:41 PM, cometaryorbit said:

If "men do not understand, and cannot" I am not sure that regular humans can actually in practice use those greater powers.

I am ... skeptical that any such powers are actually all that impressive, as Kalak in the Prelude sounds like he's died multiple times to thunderclasts. But even if they are, I don't think some random person who steals a Honorblade can use them. Szeth trained with and used an Honorblade for ages, he doesn't display anything super special.

I am much less confident in the Skybreakers being ultimately a positive force or returning to their historic mission. It could happen but I don't think it's anything like guaranteed.

I think Honorblade-Szeth might have a chance against a less-skilled-than-Kaladin 3rd ideal Windrunner or Skybreaker, but effectively no healing would make it super hard. He could escape due to superior skill, but winning a fight, I doubt.

Against a 4th ideal I can't see the Radiant losing, I think the power disparity becomes too huge for skill to compensate.

What are regular humans? Besides, a random person who steals an honor blade isn't likely to hold on to it for very long.  Sooner or later, it's likely to pass into the hands of someone who knows how to use it, or is smart enough to figure out how. The ghost bloods had a soul caster and had at least one member that knew how to use it.  What happens if someone like Mraize got his hands on an honor blade?

And even if the other powers of an honor blade aren't that impressive, or useful combatively, tracking down someone using an honorblade for dangerous purposes would be difficult.  The WindRunner and SkyBreaker blades could allow for someone to fly away, and the LightWeaver, Elsecaller, and WillShaper blades could let them slip into Shadesmar. Unless the radiant had the same powers, they wouldn't be able to follow them. And if they were in fact able to slip into ShadesMar, the radiants would be unarmed if they followed.

I don't think the SkyBreakers will be positive, exactly. I think they will act as some kind of neutral third party between nations.

Even if they just managed to escape, that's dangerous enough.  If they attacked somewhere, then managed to escape before radiants could be called to stop them, or even after they arrived, they could attack somewhere else.

Kaladin managed to defeat full shard bearers twice before earning his blade. One without stormlight.  

On 10/11/2022 at 7:07 PM, Nameless said:

You're probably right on the anarchy part, but the point I'm trying to make is that even the most unambiguous oaths don't prevent evil actions. If someone truly believed that Taravangian's ideals were right, then they could follow it. (Besides, 'justice' is malleable. Case in point: Skybreakers could swear to the pirate code.)

I admit, justice is a subjective concept (if you're into anime, check out One Piece sometime) and can be interpreted as differently as morality. But the point I'm trying to make is that at least the oaths give some measure of guidance to the radiance, and acts as some level of check against the misuse of the power. Is it perfect? Of course not. There is no such thing as an absolute check against power.  But while it's imperfect, it's better than something that has no checks at all, like the Honorblades.

On 10/11/2022 at 7:07 PM, Nameless said:

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I meant that the impact the oaths have on a Radiant does not have to be positive. And there doesn't need to be any basis of honor/worthiness, you just have to be honest with yourself. Shallan killing Kelek would have threatened her bond not because it was wrong, but because she would have done it out of desire to hide from the truth. It is possible to be an honest villain.

Lying to yourself, saying that something is ok, even when you know it is wrong, is wrong in and of itself.  That's why Shallan's bond with Pattern would have been threatened. Shallan was literally arguing with herself over the morality of what she was doing.

When have we seen the impact not being a positive thing? It's never been easy for any of the Radiants that we've seen (except maybe Lopen with his second). Kaladin found the strength the fight again after his second, overcame his hatred of Elhokar after his third, and his shame over Tien's death after his fourth.  Dalinar found purpose with his second and accepted responsibility after his third.  Teft started to forgive himself for his past after his third.  Yes, Shallan struggled after her second Ideal, but that was when she started to face her past, acknowledging who she was not the monster she thought she was, despite her actions.  The oaths are painful, but becoming a better person isn't always easy.

On 10/11/2022 at 7:07 PM, Nameless said:

Unexpected Surgebinders can pop up anyways. Skybreakers and lightweaving fused to name a few examples. And yeah, Honorblades will be extremely useful against normal soldiers, but the proliferation of Surgebinders will keep them from being too dangerous. Moash, for example, hasn't been causing mass chaos on every battlefront he's been on.

And that light weaving fuzed managed to make off with a gemstone worth a fortune and capable of containing one of the unmade.  And while the Skybreakers have been employed as soldiers, and likely Moash as well, that's an overt use of them.  They haven't been used covertly, that we know of, but that's the greater concern.  Someone with an honor blade could pop up anywhere they find a place that doesn't have radiants close by and attack.  Killing and/or stealing and escaping before someone managed to contact Uritheru for help. I think guerrilla warfare is a much more dangerous use of the honorblades than traditional battles.