Future of the Honorblades

[Letryx13]

So, something I've wondered about since I read RoW is what has happened to the Honorblades, and what will happen with them going forward. 

Based on Dalinar's encounter with Ishar, it's strongly implied that he attacked the Shin and took the Honorblades from them. He may have only recovered his own, so we don't know that he has all the missing ones. But that means that 6-7 of the Honorblades are either in the possession of the Shin or Ishar's forces, or split between them. Nale has his, Moash has the WindRunner blade, and we still don't know what happened to the StoneWard blade.  

Since Kaladin and Szeth are headed to Shinovar in book five, it's more or less guaranteed that more information about the other blades Shinovar protected all those years will come out. What really happened to them, where they are, who has them, we don't yet know.  But we will hopefully find out.

What I'd like to ask/postulate, is what will happen if they honorblades are recovered by the radiants? If the desolations truly end after book 5, then there won't be the same kind of need for them anymore.  The desolations will be done. The heralds my eventually recover, but who knows what state they'll be in.  And as a certain honorspren said and Szeth has proven, the honorblades are dangerous.  Without any kind of oath restricting the actions of the ones holding them, they can be used to terrible effect.  Of course, some of the honorblades could still be useful.  The blades could be used to train people in the surges of that blade's corresponding order, which would be useful in times when there aren't many radiants of that particular order, such as BondSmiths. Or ElseCallers at the present time.  So the honorblades could still be very useful, but also very risky.

This brings me to my conclusion.  I think the honorblades should be destroyed.  They were forged from Honor's soul, and Vorenism likely considers them holy artifacts, but with the danger they represent and the need for them greatly diminished, they should probably be disposed of.  The way to do this, of course, is with Knightblood. If that sword is capable of damaging one of the honorblades, then it should be capable of destroying them. It would be tricky, given how Knightblood works, but it should still be possible.  Of course hiding them or locking them away is an option, but the Shin tried that. And while they were successful for a long time, the blades were ultimately recovered by insane heralds who have done Adolnasium only knows what with them.

That's why I think the honorblades should be destroyed. What do you think?

[Quantus he/him]

Based on what we've seen I agree with the Spren's general stance that they are too dangerous to allow in the hands of mortals, without Honor to be around to limit their use.

Thus, they need to be Removed from the equation, or else Honor needs to be Restored to it.  

Otherwise, those Swords will be MacGuffin level superweapons that everyone else fights over, come era4.  The only thing more frightening than a Cosmere-aware Ligthweaver (now that we know the Power of Waveform manipulation) is the thought of what a properly Aware and educated, but entirely unrestricted and amoral Bondsmith could do.  Just imagine THAT villain abroad and combining magics.

[bmcclure7]

On 12/13/2021 at 5:24 PM, Letryx13 said:

So, something I've wondered about since I read RoW is what has happened to the Honorblades, and what will happen with them going forward. 

Based on Dalinar's encounter with Ishar, it's strongly implied that he attacked the Shin and took the Honorblades from them. He may have only recovered his own, so we don't know that he has all the missing ones. But that means that 6-7 of the Honorblades are either in the possession of the Shin or Ishar's forces, or split between them. Nale has his, Moash has the WindRunner blade, and we still don't know what happened to the StoneWard blade.  

Since Kaladin and Szeth are headed to Shinovar in book five, it's more or less guaranteed that more information about the other blades Shinovar protected all those years will come out. What really happened to them, where they are, who has them, we don't yet know.  But we will hopefully find out.

What I'd like to ask/postulate, is what will happen if they honorblades are recovered by the radiants? If the desolations truly end after book 5, then there won't be the same kind of need for them anymore.  The desolations will be done. The heralds my eventually recover, but who knows what state they'll be in.  And as a certain honorspren said and Szeth has proven, the honorblades are dangerous.  Without any kind of oath restricting the actions of the ones holding them, they can be used to terrible effect.  Of course, some of the honorblades could still be useful.  The blades could be used to train people in the surges of that blade's corresponding order, which would be useful in times when there aren't many radiants of that particular order, such as BondSmiths. Or ElseCallers at the present time.  So the honorblades could still be very useful, but also very risky.

This brings me to my conclusion.  I think the honorblades should be destroyed.  They were forged from Honor's soul, and Vorenism likely considers them holy artifacts, but with the danger they represent and the need for them greatly diminished, they should probably be disposed of.  The way to do this, of course, is with Knightblood. If that sword is capable of damaging one of the honorblades, then it should be capable of destroying them. It would be tricky, given how Knightblood works, but it should still be possible.  Of course hiding them or locking them away is an option, but the Shin tried that. And while they were successful for a long time, the blades were ultimately recovered by insane heralds who have done Adolnasium only knows what with them.

That's why I think the honorblades should be destroyed. What do you think?

 

 I think most of the Heralds would object you to destroy their swords.   Certainly Nal and Ishar .  The rest are with the shin and I think they'd want to keep them too since they're like holy artifacts. 

[Letryx13]

23 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I think most of the Heralds would object you to destroy their swords.   Certainly Nal and Ishar .  The rest are with the shin and I think they'd want to keep them too since they're like holy artifacts. 

Nale and Ishar would probably object, but considering the other heralds, except Taln, abandoned their blades, I don't think they'd care. Even if they did, I'm not sure they still have the right to have a say.  As for the Shin, I agree they might be an obstacle, if they still have the blades.  But what they want to happen to the blades is uncertain.  They practice with the surges, according to Szeth, but they've also kept the swords a secret for millennia. Waiting for the desolations to return, presumably.  If the desolations end, they may not see the need for the honor blades anymore.

But I think we agree on the biggest obstacle. The fact that most of Roshar will view the honorblades as holy artifacts.

[NameIess]

I don't think that the honorblades will be that dangerous. Obviously Ishar's Honorblade will be extremely dangerous, but the others seem to simply give a less efficient version of the radiant bond, albeit without the need for ideals. Besides that, I don't think it would be so easy to destroy them as you assume:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

could NB pulverize an honorblade to nonexistence? What would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

yes. you would need to repair it with investiture, otherwise would be like a shardplate. You'd have godmetal dust, or add investiture and reconstitute it, or change to other states. All possibilities.

Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

And I think it would be easier to protect intact blades than it would be to protect a pile of dust. Especially if the person holding it can use it to protect themselves. I think a solution like the Shin, that of a group dedicated to protecting the blades, would be the best one aside from curing the heralds of their insanity and giving their blades back.

[cometaryorbit]

In late era Cosmere they will probably be less of a thing everyone fights over. Once Southern Scadrian medallion technology gets off planet, and fabrial science advances, etc., items granting Invested powers will probably become pretty common, thus the Honorblades will be far less special.

I agree that nine of the Honorblades, at least when used by a non Herald, are less powerful overall than a Radiant. Also, for off-Roshar/Cosmere-wide implications, Stormlight is hard to get so Scadrian medallion powers are probably more valuable than Roshar's Surges.

Ishar's Honorblade specifically might be an issue, but I kind of expect that situation to be resolved by the end of SA book 10 (whether by someone else becoming Honor, or a multi Shard merger, or...). So the "Bondsmith Unchained" thing might not exist in late era Cosmere.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

I agree that nine of the Honorblades, at least when used by a non Herald, are less powerful overall than a Radiant. Also, for off-Roshar/Cosmere-wide implications, Stormlight is hard to get so Scadrian medallion powers are probably more valuable than Roshar's Surges.

Unless someone figures out how to use a different kind of investiture to power them. Venli, Zahel, and Knightblood itself all prove it's possible to fuel powers with different kinds of investiture.  And actually, the storm father implied that the honorblades granted more power than a radiant bond. He said that with Jezrien's blade, Dalinar would be a WindRunner and more.  True, they use stormlight much faster, but as Szeth proved, especially with the WindRunner and SkyBreaker blades, that doesn't matter much if you carry enough stormlight with you and then run away when you're done killing people.  The LightWeaver and TruthWatcher blades could disguise the user for assignations.  And so on.

4 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

I don't think that the honorblades will be that dangerous. Obviously Ishar's Honorblade will be extremely dangerous, but the others seem to simply give a less efficient version of the radiant bond, albeit without the need for ideals. Besides that, I don't think it would be so easy to destroy them as you assume:

And I think it would be easier to protect intact blades than it would be to protect a pile of dust. Especially if the person holding it can use it to protect themselves. I think a solution like the Shin, that of a group dedicated to protecting the blades, would be the best one aside from curing the heralds of their insanity and giving their blades back.

I was thinking more along the lines of breaking them into pieces, rendering them unusable.  I didn't know about that particular Words of Brandon.  But it seems safer if they were reconstituted in such a way as to make them harder to use.

[NameIess]

Just now, Letryx13 said:

Unless someone figures out how to use a different kind of investiture to power them. Venli, Zahel, and Knightblood itself all prove it's possible to fuel powers with different kinds of investiture.  And actually, the storm father implied that the honorblades granted more power than a radiant bond. He said that with Jezrien's blade, Dalinar would be a WindRunner and more.  True, they use stormlight much faster, but as Szeth proved, especially with the WindRunner and SkyBreaker blades, that doesn't matter much if you carry enough stormlight with you and then run away when you're done killing people.  The LightWeaver and TruthWatcher blades could disguise the user for assignations.  And so on.

Or you could just... use actual Radiants to do that?

1 minute ago, Letryx13 said:

I was thinking more along the lines of breaking them into pieces, rendering them unusable.  I didn't know about that particular Words of Brandon.  But it seems safer if they were reconstituted in such a way as to make them harder to use.

I don't think you could change their form. I imagine it would work like shardplate. You can't make shardplate grow into a different form, just repair it.

[Letryx13]

46 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Or you could just... use actual Radiants to do that?

I had that idea too.  Hide Jezrien's blade with Kaladin, the TruthWatcher blade with Renarin and so on.  That's the safest alternative I can think of. But I think getting rid of them is the best option.

 

46 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

I don't think you could change their form. I imagine it would work like shardplate. You can't make shardplate grow into a different form, just repair it.

I was going off of the WoB saying they could be changed to other states.  I'm not completely sure what he means by that, but it sounds like they could be reduced to some unusable state, or at least really really hard to fix.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Letryx13

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I had that idea too.  Hide Jezrien's blade with Kaladin, the TruthWatcher blade with Renarin and so on.  That's the safest alternative I can think of. But I think getting rid of them is the best option.

No, I mean that you could just use actual Radiants as assassins. No need to use the Honorblades.

7 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I was going off of the WoB saying they could be changed to other states.  I'm not completely sure what he means by that, but it sounds like they could be reduced to some unusable state, or at least really really hard to fix.

Assuming it works like shardlpate, turning the honorblades into dust would be the worst idea. If someone gets one piece of the dust, they could regrow the entire blade, assuming you aren't constantly breaking and repairing the Honorblades.

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Unless someone figures out how to use a different kind of investiture to power them. Venli, Zahel, and Knightblood itself all prove it's possible to fuel powers with different kinds of investiture.

Actually powering Invested Arts ("active" magic) with a new type of Investiture is per WOB possible, but no one knows how to do it yet.

Zahel/Vasher can survive off Stormlight, but he has not learned how to use it for Awakening. Nightblood, similarly, can eat Rosharan Investiture - but I don't think that's the same as actually powering Awakening with it (Nightblood is already Awakened).

Venli can do Voidlight stuff, but I don't think she understands it, and I also don't think that trick "translates" to humans (it involves her gemheart, right?)

I am sure it will be figured out in late era Cosmere - but once that is figured out, then there will probably be better options than Honorblades. The Honorblades will be kind of obsolete early model technology. If that kind of cross-system Investiture use is known, then you could probably put Surges into Scadrian medallions, or something...

Even currently (Era 2 Scadrial/first arc Stormlight), the Bands of Mourning are I'd say far more useful than an Honorblade, though they contain less Investiture.

[Letryx13]

3 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

No, I mean that you could just use actual Radiants as assassins. No need to use the Honorblades.

Only if the radiant themselves believed in what they were doing, as Kaladin has proven.  Besides, with the honorblades, anyone could have the power. Imagine Sadeas with one.  And possibly using it to frame radiants. Or some random lunatic running amok with one.

3 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Assuming it works like shardlpate, turning the honorblades into dust would be the worst idea. If someone gets one piece of the dust, they could regrow the entire blade, assuming you aren't constantly breaking and repairing the Honorblades.

If it really works like shardplate, then you could only ever have the ten blades.  If you could duplicate the armor like that, they would have made tons of suits of shardplate by now. And I think Dalinar says they can't do that in TWoK.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Venli can do Voidlight stuff, but I don't think she understands it, and I also don't think that trick "translates" to humans (it involves her gemheart, right?)

I don't think that matters. I think it's just having a tie to multiple shards, but we don't know for sure yet. I kind of hope Renarrin finds out.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Even currently (Era 2 Scadrial/first arc Stormlight), the Bands of Mourning are I'd say far more useful than an Honorblade, though they contain less Investiture.

If the bands truly grant the same level of power that Rashek had, and he was probably around the same level as a full herald, if not stronger, then the bands probably are more powerful than any one honorblade. But based on what Wax said about compounding, I think they'd be harder to recharge.  

On the other hand, without compounding, I don't think an allomancer or ferring could match a surge binder, unless they were a full Mistborn or Feruchemist.  And since the process of making medallions with more than three metallic arts is unknown, the bands themselves hold a similar level of value and danger, as the only thing on Scadrial that grants that much power.  Which is probably why Wax gave them to the kandra for safe keeping.

Though, to be fair, I agree that the medallions are more practical than the honorblades. 

[cometaryorbit]

41 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

If the bands truly grant the same level of power that Rashek had, and he was probably around the same level as a full herald, if not stronger, then the bands probably are more powerful than any one honorblade. But based on what Wax said about compounding, I think they'd be harder to recharge.  

On the other hand, without compounding, I don't think an allomancer or ferring could match a surge binder, unless they were a full Mistborn or Feruchemist.  And since the process of making medallions with more than three metallic arts is unknown, the bands themselves hold a similar level of value and danger, as the only thing on Scadrial that grants that much power.  Which is probably why Wax gave them to the kandra for safe keeping.

Though, to be fair, I agree that the medallions are more practical than the honorblades. 

I was talking about late era cosmere once medallion technology is fully understood.

The Bands at peak power are stronger than anything we saw TLR do, I think - he wasn't emitting mist. But that use of the Bands burned through reserves really fast.

I think a more reasonable use would be much more limited, but still a lot stronger than a non-Herald with an Honorblade (say, Szeth with Jezrien's Blade). The Heralds when Honor was alive had unlimited Stormlight, so they're not a fair comparison.

A single-power Misting or Ferring is going to be at a disadvantage vs. an Honorblade user, sure. But if you can pick two or three powers for your medallion... I think a powerful combat Twinborn combination like Wax would have a good chance against Szeth with the Windrunner Honorblade (Reverse Lashing is probably less quick/effective as a defense against coins than a Coinshot's Push, and Szeth has no ranged powers). Add in f-Gold as the medallion's third power in case a Honorblade hit does get through... Or a combination with f-Steel...

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

A single-power Misting or Ferring is going to be at a disadvantage vs. an Honorblade user, sure. But if you can pick two or three powers for your medallion... I think a powerful combat Twinborn combination like Wax would have a good chance against Szeth with the Windrunner Honorblade (Reverse Lashing is probably less quick/effective as a defense against coins than a Coinshot's Push, and Szeth has no ranged powers). Add in f-Gold as the medallion's third power in case a Honorblade hit does get through... Or a combination with f-Steel...

We can't really know until we see a direct conflict between them, but I get the feeling that even twin born wouldn't be powerful enough to compare to a surge binder without compounding, or a large variety of abilities to make up the difference. The radiants ability to recover seems much stronger. A bullet to the head can killing a gold ferring, but Shallan walked away from a crossbow-bolt sticking through her head.  The metallic arts seem more versatile, but surge binding seems stronger.  At least, that's how they feel to me. It's the compounding that makes the metallic arts so broken.

6 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

I think a more reasonable use would be much more limited, but still a lot stronger than a non-Herald with an Honorblade (say, Szeth with Jezrien's Blade). The Heralds when Honor was alive had unlimited Stormlight, so they're not a fair comparison.

Hard to say. Personally, I'd love to seem some kind of conflict between two people using once of each.  But in my head, I see it as an escalation of the difference between a radiant and someone using an honorblade. The bands are more powerful, but also run out even faster that non-herald honorblade users. So I can't really say which I think is better, I'd guess it all depends on who could outlast the other. 

But I stand by the idea that Roshar will likely be much better off without the honorblades, once the desolations are finished.

[NameIess]

10 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Only if the radiant themselves believed in what they were doing, as Kaladin has proven.  Besides, with the honorblades, anyone could have the power. Imagine Sadeas with one.  And possibly using it to frame radiants. Or some random lunatic running amok with one.

Or you could have some random lunatic with a spren. Sadeas could have been a Radiant. Sure, Honorblades are easier to use, but they aren't as dangerous as you make it seem.

10 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

If it really works like shardplate, then you could only ever have the ten blades.  If you could duplicate the armor like that, they would have made tons of suits of shardplate by now. And I think Dalinar says they can't do that in TWoK.

Yeah. And with shardplate, if you feed one part, the other parts crumble away. So if you lose one particle of dust, someone could theoretically recreate the entire Honorblade from it. Meaning that turning them to dust would make it much harder to protect.

 

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

We can't really know until we see a direct conflict between them, but I get the feeling that even twin born wouldn't be powerful enough to compare to a surge binder without compounding, or a large variety of abilities to make up the difference. The radiants ability to recover seems much stronger. A bullet to the head can killing a gold ferring, but Shallan walked away from a crossbow-bolt sticking through her head.

True Radiants yes, Honorblade users I'm not so sure. Radiant healing is significantly better, e.g. Szeth with Honorblade can't heal from Shardblade wounds, a true Radiant can.

Also, Stormlight is an abundant source of Investiture, so they can use their healing more freely than non-Compounding Gold Ferrings can. If the Ferring was  actually tapping a bunch of Gold right when they were shot, a bullet wouldn't kill them; the problem is they can be killed before they know to tap - only Compounders like Miles and TLR can actually tap that freely.

3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

But in my head, I see it as an escalation of the difference between a radiant and someone using an honorblade. The bands are more powerful, but also run out even faster that non-herald honorblade users. So I can't really say which I think is better, I'd guess it all depends on who could outlast the other.

Well, I think the Bands let you choose how rapidly to use the power, like regular Feruchemical tapping.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Or you could have some random lunatic with a spren. Sadeas could have been a Radiant. Sure, Honorblades are easier to use, but they aren't as dangerous as you make it seem.

There currently is a lunatic bonded to a Spren, Nale.  Not important, but I wanted to point it out.  But I still think the honor blades are very dangerous.  Look at the damage Taravangian caused by using Szeth. If it were so easy to substitute a radiant for an honor blade user, then why not just find a radiant and convince them to help? They were still rare, but they were starting to emerge; the Diagram even mentioned them. But that's only an example. On top of that, their ease of use makes them desirable. People on Roshar did a lot of stupid stuff in the past for regular shard blades. Imagine what they'd do for the honor blades.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

True Radiants yes, Honorblade users I'm not so sure. Radiant healing is significantly better, e.g. Szeth with Honorblade can't heal from Shardblade wounds, a true Radiant can.

I think it's just a matter of how much stormlight they have.  The only time I remember Szeth getting injured with a shard blade was when he fought Kaladin the second time. And I thought Kaladin suspected he just didn't want to waste the light he had left.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Also, Stormlight is an abundant source of Investiture, so they can use their healing more freely than non-Compounding Gold Ferrings can. If the Ferring was  actually tapping a bunch of Gold right when they were shot, a bullet wouldn't kill them; the problem is they can be killed before they know to tap - only Compounders like Miles and TLR can actually tap that freely.

When Wax and Wayne are discussing the possibility of Bloody Tan still being alive, Wax specifically mentions how Miles could have survived a shot to the head.  He doesn't mention blood makers in general, and more than once he worries about Wayne dying from a shot to the head. To be fair, I think it's probably possible for a regular gold ferring to survive that kind of wound, if they had enough health stored up, and were actively tapping it. But I'd bet it would take a lot out of them to do it. The only reason Miles and Rashek could keep it going so much was because of compounding.  But I agree, how much fuel they have for their abilities is probably the biggest difference.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Well, I think the Bands let you choose how rapidly to use the power, like regular Feruchemical tapping.

Probably, but if you're tapping them slowly enough to preserve the power, I doubt it would save the user from larger wounds.

2 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Yeah. And with shardplate, if you feed one part, the other parts crumble away. So if you lose one particle of dust, someone could theoretically recreate the entire Honorblade from it. Meaning that turning them to dust would make it much harder to protect.

Yeah, turning them to dust probably wouldn't work.  But there should still be a way to destroy them.  Reduce them to investiture and consume them with Nightblood maybe? Or destroy them with anti-stormlight? Assuming they're comprised a stormlight investiture, not just Tanavast's soul.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

There currently is a lunatic bonded to a Spren, Nale.  Not important, but I wanted to point it out.  But I still think the honor blades are very dangerous.  Look at the damage Taravangian caused by using Szeth. If it were so easy to substitute a radiant for an honor blade user, then why not just find a radiant and convince them to help? They were still rare, but they were starting to emerge; the Diagram even mentioned them. But that's only an example. On top of that, their ease of use makes them desirable. People on Roshar did a lot of stupid stuff in the past for regular shard blades. Imagine what they'd do for the honor blades.

Because he didn't have any radiants, and definitely none as powerful as Szeth. I think that the honorblades do need to be kept safe, but destroying them is not necessary. If they were stolen, there are now enough trained Radiants to defeat them. Szeth was so dangerous for two reasons. 1. There were no other surgebinders that had the training to beat him, and 2. No one was trained to fight surgebinders. Now, almost evrey soldier is trained to fight surgebinders (fused) and there are tons of radiants with experience in combat.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Yeah, turning them to dust probably wouldn't work.  But there should still be a way to destroy them.  Reduce them to investiture and consume them with Nightblood maybe? Or destroy them with anti-stormlight? Assuming they're comprised a stormlight investiture, not just Tanavast's soul.

Brandon said in his spoiler livestream last night that they're made of a very pure form of Tanavastium, so they are made out of Honor's investiture, which is stormlight. However, the Raysium in the anti-light knife was able to transfer anti-voidlight just fine, and Brandon also said that spren in physical form would be more resistant against anti-light attacks. Besides that, if Honorblades are so powerful, wouldn't it be better to just use them?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Because he didn't have any radiants, and definitely none as powerful as Szeth. I think that the honorblades do need to be kept safe, but destroying them is not necessary. If they were stolen, there are now enough trained Radiants to defeat them. Szeth was so dangerous for two reasons. 1. There were no other surgebinders that had the training to beat him, and 2. No one was trained to fight surgebinders. Now, almost evrey soldier is trained to fight surgebinders (fused) and there are tons of radiants with experience in combat.

Not to mention that the second a surgebinder showed up Szeth got destroyed.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, Szeth was super dangerous when there were no other Investiture users around (except the extremely limited & non-combat-relevant Soulcaster fabrial users).

In a hypothetical late cosmere, inter-world environment where Scadrian medallion tech has made Invested powers really common, Honorblades are not that impressive really.

(If the way to convert between different magic systems was discovered, it might be possible to use medallion tech to grant non-Scadrian powers.)

3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

 People on Roshar did a lot of stupid stuff in the past for regular shard blades. Imagine what they'd do for the honor blades.

That was in an era when Shardblades were the most powerful known weapons, though, and had no defense but Shardplate or another Shardblade (even half-shards are new tech as of WoK). They were super valuable in that context.

But the Honorblades are likely to be kind of obsolete by the time cross world contact becomes mainstream, IMO. Era 2 medallion tech is already competitive and will presumably be improved further. Wide use of aluminum will make Shardblades less significant (the Fused already figured this out as of RoW); firearms also will.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Not to mention that the second a surgebinder showed up Szeth got destroyed.

Kaladin never defeated Szeth.  Szeth allowed Kaladin to kill him once he realized that he wasn't truthless.  Szeth was longing for death as a punishment for all that he'd done and to escape being bound to that oathstone. Kaladin specifically noted that his last attack in that fight was meant to draw Szeth out of form by parrying the blow, but Szeth didn't parry the blow, he just took it.

3 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Brandon said in his spoiler livestream last night that they're made of a very pure form of Tanavastium, so they are made out of Honor's investiture, which is stormlight. However, the Raysium in the anti-light knife was able to transfer anti-voidlight just fine, and Brandon also said that spren in physical form would be more resistant against anti-light attacks. Besides that, if Honorblades are so powerful, wouldn't it be better to just use them?

Their being so powerful is my entire point.  If there isn't a specific need for them any longer, they represent a huge risk. That much power in the wrong hands is not a good thing.  True, radiants could probably stop someone who ran amok with one, by sheer virtue of numbers if nothing else, but how much damage could they do in the meantime? Especially the blades with gravitation or transportation for quick getaways. If no Windrunners or WillShapers were around to pursue, what could anyone do? 

3 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Because he didn't have any radiants, and definitely none as powerful as Szeth. I think that the honorblades do need to be kept safe, but destroying them is not necessary. If they were stolen, there are now enough trained Radiants to defeat them. Szeth was so dangerous for two reasons. 1. There were no other surgebinders that had the training to beat him, and 2. No one was trained to fight surgebinders. Now, almost evrey soldier is trained to fight surgebinders (fused) and there are tons of radiants with experience in combat.

Part of my point is that the honorblades are more powerful than typical radiants.  I think they probably grant power equal to the fifth ideal and more.  And while multiple radiants probably could defeat someone wielding an honorblade, they could still kill a lot of people before they were caught, if they were smart.  I agree that with the number of radiants now available means the honorblades are not as dangerous as before, but the danger is still considerable. True, Szeth was mostly so successful because there weren't any active radiants at the time to directly oppose him, but there are still only so many radiants. They can't be everywhere.  And as for soldiers now being trained to fight surgebinders, don't forget, Szeth fought full shardbearers in the past. When he killed the king of Jah Kaved, he went up against three, some with shardplate and half shard shields, along with "half an army", lying in wait for him, and he decimated them. Training can only help make up for so much of a difference in power.  Adolin described his second fight with Szeth as rats fighting a chasmfiend. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

In a hypothetical late cosmere, inter-world environment where Scadrian medallion tech has made Invested powers really common, Honorblades are not that impressive really.

Theoretically, they could duplicate the bands of mourning and make everyone as powerful as Rashek was.  But we still don't know exactly what kinds of limits medallion technology will have. Not to mention, the metallic arts seem to grow weaker through the generations. The honorblades don't seem to have lost any of their potency.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

(If the way to convert between different magic systems was discovered, it might be possible to use medallion tech to grant non-Scadrian powers.)

Considering the surges also deal with connection, it's theoretically possible to use the power of a bondsmith to make someone into a radiant. Ishar probably tried to do something like that with the Stormfather. Except he was just taking the connection at the time.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Yeah, Szeth was super dangerous when there were no other Investiture users around (except the extremely limited & non-combat-relevant Soulcaster fabrial users).

He managed to take out multiple shardbearers at the same time, along with a small army, when he killed the king of Jah Kaved.  And technically, he was never defeated. He let Kaladin kill him. We've never seen someone wielding an honorblade actually lose a fight. They've been scared off or directly affected by circumstances or other powers, like when Navani broke Moash's connection to Odium, or when Dalinar forged a connection with Nale.  The closest we've seen is when Ishar ran away from Szeth and Nightblood.  But in direct combat, we've never seen an honorblade defeated.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

That was in an era when Shardblades were the most powerful known weapons, though, and had no defense but Shardplate or another Shardblade (even half-shards are new tech as of WoK). They were super valuable in that context.

They're still super valuable, and besides shardblades and plate, the only other defense are those aluminum weapons or investiture weapons on part with shardblades.  I consider Nightblood to be a shardblade, for the record.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

But the Honorblades are likely to be kind of obsolete by the time cross world contact becomes mainstream, IMO. Era 2 medallion tech is already competitive and will presumably be improved further. Wide use of aluminum will make Shardblades less significant (the Fused already figured this out as of RoW); firearms also will.

Aluminum seems to be rare enough that it's difficult to manufacture weapons of it in large amounts. That's why it's only the fuzed using them.  It's almost as valuable as gold on Scadrial.  I doubt it will be possible to have it too wide spread.  And it depends on how many powers it's possible for medallions to grant.  At the moment, two is standard, with three being rare.  That number will probably go up, but there's likely to be a trade off for that. The powers being weaker, perhaps. Firearms would definitely be a big deal, assuming the materials for gunpowder even exist on Roshar. But as Miles proved, a powerful healing is very difficult to counter.  

 

By the way, thank you all for discussing this with me, this topic has been fun to debate.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Letryx13

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Part of my point is that the honorblades are more powerful than typical radiants.
 

I am pretty sure they are weaker, actually.

- Stormlight efficiency is worse than a true Radiant.

- Honorblades don't grant the Spiritual healing needed to recover from Shardblade wounds, true Radiants can do that (because the bond is deeper).

- Radiants at high Ideals get "live" Shardplate, Honorblade users don't.

In the end-WOR fight, Kaladin has way less experience with his Surges or Shardblade fighting than Szeth (who's been being Assassin in White for at least 5 years pre-WOK, and trained with Honorblades before that). Szeth is way more experienced than any KR we've met so far except maybe Jasnah; probably even more than her, since she's been spending so much time & effort on other things.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

 I consider Nightblood to be a shardblade, for the record.

 

Yes, he is one (though an unusual one), per WOB.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

 Not to mention, the metallic arts seem to grow weaker through the generations.

 

But per WOB, it's already gotten as low as it will in Era 2 (won't weaken further).

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Aluminum seems to be rare enough that it's difficult to manufacture weapons of it in large amounts. That's why it's only the fuzed using them.  It's almost as valuable as gold on Scadrial.  I doubt it will be possible to have it too wide spread.

That's just a limit of available technology - aluminum was super expensive once on Earth too. It takes lots of electricity to make aluminum cheaply. By ~1950s -60s technology (which Scadrial is maybe 40-50 years away from... possibly less, depending on how advanced the Southerners are - Elendel Basin is ~1910 tech) it will be cheap enough for aluminum foil, aluminum cans, etc.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Kaladin never defeated Szeth.  Szeth allowed Kaladin to kill him once he realized that he wasn't truthless.  Szeth was longing for death as a punishment for all that he'd done and to escape being bound to that oathstone. Kaladin specifically noted that his last attack in that fight was meant to draw Szeth out of form by parrying the blow, but Szeth didn't parry the blow, he just took it.

Yeah, but a well-trained Radiant has multiple massive advantages over an Honorblade user. Kaladin was barely trained in his powers, but he still held his own against Szeth, fighting evenly with him.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Their being so powerful is my entire point.  If there isn't a specific need for them any longer, they represent a huge risk. That much power in the wrong hands is not a good thing.  True, radiants could probably stop someone who ran amok with one, by sheer virtue of numbers if nothing else, but how much damage could they do in the meantime? Especially the blades with gravitation or transportation for quick getaways. If no Windrunners or WillShapers were around to pursue, what could anyone do? 

How much damage could a rogue Skybreaker do? Say one that decided to follow the pirate code? How much damage could a rogue Dustbringer do? They're the most destructive of the orders.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Part of my point is that the honorblades are more powerful than typical radiants.  I think they probably grant power equal to the fifth ideal and more.  And while multiple radiants probably could defeat someone wielding an honorblade, they could still kill a lot of people before they were caught, if they were smart.  I agree that with the number of radiants now available means the honorblades are not as dangerous as before, but the danger is still considerable. True, Szeth was mostly so successful because there weren't any active radiants at the time to directly oppose him, but there are still only so many radiants. They can't be everywhere.  And as for soldiers now being trained to fight surgebinders, don't forget, Szeth fought full shardbearers in the past. When he killed the king of Jah Kaved, he went up against three, some with shardplate and half shard shields, along with "half an army", lying in wait for him, and he decimated them. Training can only help make up for so much of a difference in power.  Adolin described his second fight with Szeth as rats fighting a chasmfiend. 

Honorblades may grant full access to surges, but they also require impractically high amounts of stormlight. Like, they need so much stormlight that Szeth noted as a squire that he used stormlight much more efficiently than he had before. Also, Szeth is not the best measure for what someone with an Honorblade would be like. He trained with all ten surges for years, perhaps decades. In that ambush, Szeth had plenty of stormlight, was up against soldiers who had no idea how to fight surgebinders and shardbearers who had no idea how to work together. And he used hand-to-hand combat, a fighting style the soldiers were not prepared for.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

They're still super valuable, and besides shardblades and plate, the only other defense are those aluminum weapons or investiture weapons on part with shardblades.  I consider Nightblood to be a shardblade, for the record.

Half-shards counter shardblades. Honorblades, in the era of Radiants, are about equivalent to shardblades. The only advantage to an Honorblade that I can see is that they are probably immune to investiture suppressors, or at least highly resistant. Their disadvantages are more obvious, lack of stormlight efficiency, and the possibility of being unable to heal shardblade wounds. (I say possibility, because there's a WoB where Brandon implied that Szeth's inability to heal shardblade wounds may have been due to his perception).

This said, I agree that the honorblades should be heavily protected, particularly the world-ending Bondsmith blade. However, I don't think that destroying them would be practical at all.

 

[Letryx13]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:09 PM, Ookla the Cometary said:

I am pretty sure they are weaker, actually.

- Stormlight efficiency is worse than a true Radiant.

- Honorblades don't grant the Spiritual healing needed to recover from Shardblade wounds, true Radiants can do that (because the bond is deeper).

- Radiants at high Ideals get "live" Shardplate, Honorblade users don't.

The stormlight efficiency is without question their biggest weakness, but I think their power is part of the reason why people need more stormlight to use them. A non-herald isn't able to handle the honor blades' power efficiently.  And are we certain they can't recover from shard blade wounds? The only time I can remember an HB wielder taking a shard blade attack was during Szeth's fight with Kaladin. And Kaladin seemed to think that Szeth didn't want to use up the light to heal himself. Also, a WoB implies Szeth's perception prevented his healing, like how Kaladin couldn't heal his brands.  Live shardplate probably does make a difference, and a big one, but Szeth managed to wipe out multiple shard blade users who had plate.  Non-radiants yes, so they didn't have surge binding, but they still didn't give him much trouble.

On 12/17/2021 at 8:09 PM, Ookla the Cometary said:

That's just a limit of available technology - aluminum was super expensive once on Earth too. It takes lots of electricity to make aluminum cheaply. By ~1950s -60s technology (which Scadrial is maybe 40-50 years away from... possibly less, depending on how advanced the Southerners are - Elendel Basin is ~1910 tech) it will be cheap enough for aluminum foil, aluminum cans, etc. 

Actually, I didn't know that history of aluminum. But even taking that into account, we don't know how much aluminum is going to be readily available.  We may not know what method the fuzed are using to craft their weapons, but it's likely that they're not lacking electricity.  Stormforms could probably provide all they need.

On 12/17/2021 at 8:09 PM, Ookla the Cometary said:

In the end-WOR fight, Kaladin has way less experience with his Surges or Shardblade fighting than Szeth (who's been being Assassin in White for at least 5 years pre-WOK, and trained with Honorblades before that). Szeth is way more experienced than any KR we've met so far except maybe Jasnah; probably even more than her, since she's been spending so much time & effort on other things.

Kaladin was much less experienced with the surges, but was particularly gifted with spear fighting. Even among the radiants, he's probably their most talented fighter, except maybe Dalinar.  Also, Kaladin didn't really defeat Szeth.  Szeth let Kaladin kill him.

On 12/17/2021 at 8:15 PM, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Yeah, but a well-trained Radiant has multiple massive advantages over an Honorblade user. Kaladin was barely trained in his powers, but he still held his own against Szeth, fighting evenly with him.

He may not have had as much experience with his powers, but Kaladin was a particularly skilled warrior. Dalinar is probably the only radiant that could beat him in a straight up fight, not accounting for Szeth with Nightblood. Which now that I think about it, is a duel I would love to see.

On 12/17/2021 at 8:15 PM, Ookla the unintelligible said:

How much damage could a rogue Skybreaker do? Say one that decided to follow the pirate code? How much damage could a rogue Dustbringer do? They're the most destructive of the orders.

There are at least some checks agains the radiants' powers, limiting the damage they can do.  Whether or not the spren think they're worthy, the radiant following an honorable code, and what ideals they can swear to.  The honor blade's require none of that.  Although, I've had that same thought.  The SkyBreakers were originally the police of the radiants, which means there were probably some radiants themselves that needed policing. There probably have been radiants that went rogue in the past. But which seems more likely to go on a rampage. A random person with an honorblade, or someone chose to be a radiant?

On 12/17/2021 at 8:15 PM, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Honorblades may grant full access to surges, but they also require impractically high amounts of stormlight. Like, they need so much stormlight that Szeth noted as a squire that he used stormlight much more efficiently than he had before. Also, Szeth is not the best measure for what someone with an Honorblade would be like. He trained with all ten surges for years, perhaps decades. In that ambush, Szeth had plenty of stormlight, was up against soldiers who had no idea how to fight surgebinders and shardbearers who had no idea how to work together. And he used hand-to-hand combat, a fighting style the soldiers were not prepared for.

I agree that the stormlight efficiency is their biggest drawback.  But if someone were to steal an honorblade, they would probably spend a good deal of time learning how to use it. We also don't know how much practice they actually require. Moash was able to use lashings seconds after picking up the WindRunner blade. I know he's supposed to pick things up quickly, but that seems a little much for just talent alone.  Kaladin fell off walls more than once while learning to use lashings.  And while guards might not be as confused by surge-binding anymore, with how different fuzed powers are from radiants, soldiers and guards still probably wouldn't know how to fight them. 

On 12/17/2021 at 8:15 PM, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Half-shards counter shardblades. Honorblades, in the era of Radiants, are about equivalent to shardblades. The only advantage to an Honorblade that I can see is that they are probably immune to investiture suppressors, or at least highly resistant. Their disadvantages are more obvious, lack of stormlight efficiency, and the possibility of being unable to heal shardblade wounds. (I say possibility, because there's a WoB where Brandon implied that Szeth's inability to heal shardblade wounds may have been due to his perception).

The "advantage" of the honorblades is that anyone can use them.  While I still think they grant more power than typical radiants, the risk is that there are no real requirements to use the power, except to have a lot of stormlight.  If Moash could fly immediately after being given one, then it can't be too difficult to learn how to use them.

On 12/17/2021 at 8:15 PM, Ookla the unintelligible said:

This said, I agree that the honorblades should be heavily protected, particularly the world-ending Bondsmith blade. However, I don't think that destroying them would be practical at all.

I think we can agree that the minimum to be done is locking them away, or under heavy guard in some way. I think the risk they represent merits destroying them, but I can respect the difference of opinion.  If they were going to be locked away, I think someplace in Shadesmar would be good.  There aren't any other shard blades there, true, but stormlight runs out quickly, so they'd be harder to use.  And spren could swear oaths to protect them.  Which begs the question, could a spren use one to surge-bind?

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

The stormlight efficiency is without question their biggest weakness, but I think their power is part of the reason why people need more stormlight to use them. A non-herald isn't able to handle the honor blades' power efficiently.  And are we certain they can't recover from shard blade wounds? The only time I can remember an HB wielder taking a shard blade attack was during Szeth's fight with Kaladin. And Kaladin seemed to think that Szeth didn't want to use up the light to heal himself. Also, a WoB implies Szeth's perception prevented his healing, like how Kaladin couldn't heal his brands.  Live shardplate probably does make a difference, and a big one, but Szeth managed to wipe out multiple shard blade users who had plate.  Non-radiants yes, so they didn't have surge binding, but they still didn't give him much trouble.

Actually, heralds cannot use the power efficiently either. They just used to have a direct infinite stormlight supply from Honor, so they didn't need efficiency.

6 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Actually, I didn't know that history of aluminum. But even taking that into account, we don't know how much aluminum is going to be readily available.  We may not know what method the fuzed are using to craft their weapons, but it's likely that they're not lacking electricity.  Stormforms could probably provide all they need.

They're almost certainly using soulcasting. They don't seem like the type to try and find a better way to make something that they can already make through magic.

7 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

He may not have had as much experience with his powers, but Kaladin was a particularly skilled warrior. Dalinar is probably the only radiant that could beat him in a straight up fight, not accounting for Szeth with Nightblood. Which now that I think about it, is a duel I would love to see.

Yes, but Szeth was also a particularly strong warrior. 

8 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

There are at least some checks agains the radiants' powers, limiting the damage they can do.  Whether or not the spren think they're worthy, the radiant following an honorable code, and what ideals they can swear to.  The honor blade's require none of that.  Although, I've had that same thought.  The SkyBreakers were originally the police of the radiants, which means there were probably some radiants themselves that needed policing. There probably have been radiants that went rogue in the past. But which seems more likely to go on a rampage. A random person with an honorblade, or someone chose to be a radiant?

A dustbringer seems a lot more likely to rampage, considering they seem to dislike being controlled by Dalinar, and at least one of them was willing to go over to Odium.

10 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I agree that the stormlight efficiency is their biggest drawback.  But if someone were to steal an honorblade, they would probably spend a good deal of time learning how to use it. We also don't know how much practice they actually require. Moash was able to use lashings seconds after picking up the WindRunner blade. I know he's supposed to pick things up quickly, but that seems a little much for just talent alone.  Kaladin fell off walls more than once while learning to use lashings.  And while guards might not be as confused by surge-binding anymore, with how different fuzed powers are from radiants, soldiers and guards still probably wouldn't know how to fight them. 

Moash flew into the sky, that doesn't require you to use any skills other than single lashing up, then single lashing down to hover. Radiants are different from the fused, but the most important people are guarded by radiants, or are able to defend themselves. Also soldiers have to be trained to fight skybreakers.

13 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

The "advantage" of the honorblades is that anyone can use them.  While I still think they grant more power than typical radiants, the risk is that there are no real requirements to use the power, except to have a lot of stormlight.  If Moash could fly immediately after being given one, then it can't be too difficult to learn how to use them.

It gives the power of a 5th ideal radiant. Of course using the honorblade would be easy. Using it as skillfully as even a third ideal radiant? that's a lot harder.

14 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I think we can agree that the minimum to be done is locking them away, or under heavy guard in some way. I think the risk they represent merits destroying them, but I can respect the difference of opinion.  If they were going to be locked away, I think someplace in Shadesmar would be good.  There aren't any other shard blades there, true, but stormlight runs out quickly, so they'd be harder to use.  And spren could swear oaths to protect them.  Which begs the question, could a spren use one to surge-bind?

Or you could give them to people like Adolin, who don't have a spren bond, to use as a radiant. Of course, the bondsmith blade would be way too dangerous for that.