[Poll] [Discuss] Did Jasnah do the right thing?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, SzethTheHonorblade said:

Jasnah is a bad person.

You cannot separate a choice and its outcomes from your intent. your intent is what makes you make the choice, therefore Jasnah, who casually swept away lives because she wanted them gone, made an awful decision. She hides behind the law that states that self-defense is okay. Do not mistake me self-defense is fine and okay, but what she did was no better than an assassination.

So, what if someone assassinated Hitler?

17 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

As I've said before, soulcasting a pit out from underneath them. She specifically mentions doing this at the battle of Theylen Field.

I will again repeat the danger of doing that. the pit has to be at least as deep as they are tall, and it's completly unexcpected, it's like throwing someone asleep into a pit.

[CryoZenith]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So, what if someone assassinated Hitler?

I think that's an unfair analogy, and I say that as someone who does agree with what Jasnah did.

The reason why it's disanalogous is because Hitler did have the legal right to do the things he did. The Kharbranth thugs aren't brought to justice because the system is not working (even according to its own standards). On the other hand, dictators aren't brought to justice because the system is working as intended.

So while I defend both killing the Kharbranth thugs as well as assassinating dictators, I think someone can have a morally consistent position where they defend one but not the other. And since I think that's possible, I think the analogy is not valuable.

Edited January 26, 2022 by CryoZenith
typo

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So, what if someone assassinated Hitler?

I will again repeat the danger of doing that. the pit has to be at least as deep as they are tall, and it's completly unexcpected, it's like throwing someone asleep into a pit.

They would land on their feet, at most breaking their legs.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So, what if someone assassinated Hitler

With Hitler, there was no way to legally remove him. Jasnah had methods that could have both removed the thieves and hurt the corrupt people in power.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

I think that's an unfair analogy, and I say that as someone who do agrees with what Jasnah did.

The reason why it's disanalogous is because Hitler did have the legal right to do the things he did. The Kharbranth thugs aren't brought to justice because the system is not working (even according to its own standards). On the other hand, dictaters aren't brought to justice because the system is working as intended.

So while I defend both killing the Kharbranth thugs as well as assassinating dictators, I think someone can have a morally consistent position where they defend one but not the other. And since I think that's possible, I think the analogy is not valuable.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

With Hitler, there was no way to legally remove him. Jasnah had methods that could have both removed the thieves and hurt the corrupt people in power.

What deos the legality or the way a system operates have to do with the morality of an action?

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They would land on their feet, at most breaking their legs.

If they mess up at all they will shatter them, the bone is going to come out of the skin.

One of the reasons falls from small heights aren't that dangerous is because we excpect them. I've broken bones from that height, I have a friend who's broken bones from that height, it's not as safe as you make it out to be.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

What deos the legality or the way a system operates have to do with the morality of the system?

Those thieves were likely replaced by more thieves shortly afterwards. If thieves can bribe the officials in power in order to stay untouched by the law, then killing the thieves won't stop the problem.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If they mess up at all they will shatter them, the bone is going to come out of the skin.

One of the reasons falls from small heights aren't that dangerous is because we excpect them. I've broken bones from that height, I have a friend who's broken bones from that height, it's not as safe as you make it out to be.

So what? Do you care about the thieves lives now? They're alive, and Jasnah can present them to the guard as a concrete example of how their "incompetency" (read: blatant corruption) almost got her killed.

[CryoZenith]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What deos the legality or the way a system operates have to do with the morality of an action?

I guess something useful for me to say as a preamble here is that I am an Alistair Norcross-style utilitarian. I do not think of actions as right or wrong in the absolute utilon sense (although I do think in terms of utilons), I think of actions as bottlenecking the future into better or worse paths.

In this system, the reason why legality matters for the morality of an action is because it frames the alternatives you have. When someone is evil and goes unpunished because the system is broken relative to its own goals, you have the alternative to change the system. When someone is evil and goes unpunished because the system works AS intended and that gets you there, then that alternative is off the table.

(I still defend both because I think killing the person is better than all alternatives in BOTH situations, but because I acknowledge that the set of available alternatives is dissimilar, I can see why someone would disagree, and I wouldn't call them inconsistent for disagreeing)

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Those thieves were likely replaced by more thieves shortly afterwards. If thieves can bribe the officials in power in order to stay untouched by the law, then killing the thieves won't stop the problem.

Lenin died and was replaced with Stalin so killing Dictators isn't garunteed to change anything

40 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So what? Do you care about the thieves lives now? 

You have two options Instantaneous painless death, or weeks of agonising suffering followed by a horrifically painful execution. Pick one.

41 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They're alive, and Jasnah can present them to the guard as a concrete example of how their "incompetency" (read: blatant corruption) almost got her killed.

And that does what exactly, the instant she leaves it's back to buisness as usual.

[Pathfinder]

I think it does also need to be considered the time frame in which Jasnah was working. She was focused on preventing the end of the world. She spent her every waking moment researching and trying to find a way to prevent the desolations from happening again. She was only in Kharbranth to research that. Frankly she would not have the time to put in the resources to reform Kharbranth, even assuming she could successfully do so as a foreign princess. So for me, that returns to CryoZenith's point. Does she absolve herself of responsibility by doing nothing, but still know more people will die at the hands of these men that she could have stopped, or take action and save lives in the short term?

Edited January 26, 2022 by Pathfinder

[ConfusedCow]

There's all this talk about how Jasnah is protecting others.  As is if everyone else is just helplessly waiting for someone to rescue them.  I can protect myself.  I am responsible for my own safety.  Please don't hurt anyone in my name. Jasnah should worry about herself.  What does casually killing people do to a person? It lessens the value of human life, normalizes violence.  It haunts a person and makes them fearful and paranoid. It twists a person, steals the joy of life, moment by moment.  How long before she starts ordering assassinations or plotting genocide?

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

There's all this talk about how Jasnah is protecting others.  As is if everyone else is just helplessly waiting for someone to rescue them.  I can protect myself.  I am responsible for my own safety.  Please don't hurt anyone in my name. Jasnah should worry about herself.  What does casually killing people do to a person? It lessens the value of human life, normalizes violence.  It haunts a person and makes them fearful and paranoid. It twists a person, steals the joy of life, moment by moment.  How long before she starts ordering assassinations or plotting genocide?

I respect that you can protect yourself. The three prior cases where the innocents were murdered were unable to protect themselves. Please do not speak for other people who do not have the same abilities and capabilities as you do. Everyone walking down that alley is not you. 

[ConfusedCow]

I suppose my point is that vigilantes act in the name of the public without asking the public what they want.  Maybe the barmaids and patrons of the Ralinsa want a trial, maybe they want restorative justice rather than retribution.  I don't know.  You're right Pathfinder.  I can only speak for myself.  Jasnah doesn't know either though.  Just like she doesn't know what those men's stories were or what might have happened if she let them live.  

[Letryx13]

14 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

So you'd be cool telling the innocent civilians in Kharbranth something like "hey guys, don't worry, we'll do police reform and cleanup the streets in the following ~12 months or so. In the meantime avoid that particular alley if you wanna stay alive" ?

Would you be cool telling the innocent civilians in Kharbranth something like "hey I killed three of the thugs on the street but since the police are corrupt, and it would take me too long to change that there'll be more out there by tomorrow night"?

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

I will again repeat the danger of doing that. the pit has to be at least as deep as they are tall, and it's completly unexcpected, it's like throwing someone asleep into a pit.

A six or seven foot fall is unlikely to be fatal.  Probably broken legs, maybe something more, but unlikely to actually kill them. And the injuries would help to incapacitate them. Far less likely than the certainty of soulcasting them

13 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

I wouldn't even go so far as to call what she did vigilantism, because while she technically intentionally put herself in a dangerous situation, a public alley is not supposed to be a dangerous situation.

Trees don't intend to be lightening rods, but that doesn't mean it's smart to stand underneath one during a thunderstorm. (Paraphrased quote from Kingkiller Chronicles)

3 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

I think that's an unfair analogy, and I say that as someone who does agree with what Jasnah did.

The reason why it's disanalogous is because Hitler did have the legal right to do the things he did. The Kharbranth thugs aren't brought to justice because the system is not working (even according to its own standards). On the other hand, dictators aren't brought to justice because the system is working as intended.

I'm glad to see we can find common ground. I agree, the analogy is off.

Another point I'd like to make is in reference to how open or concealed the killings are. It's one of the ways I can say that Amaram was wrong to do what he did to Kaladin's friends, despite his "justifications".  If what he was going was really for the greater good, if he genuinely believed it, then he shouldn't have needed to hide it. If you're claiming self-defense as justification for killing someone, then you need to go to the police and report it.  I feel that the only reason for not doing that is if you have something to hide. 

[Frustration]

28 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

A six or seven foot fall is unlikely to be fatal.  Probably broken legs, maybe something more, but unlikely to actually kill them. And the injuries would help to incapacitate them. Far less likely than the certainty of soulcasting them

Shatter is more likely, might even split the skin, that's not something you brush off.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Shatter is more likely, might even split the skin, that's not something you brush off.

Are we expecting them to brush it off?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Are we expecting them to brush it off?

You seem to excpect them to live, which I will admit of all Cosmere world is most possible on Roshar, but even as advanced medically as they are survival is not garunteed, and then they die anyway.

So again I ask, Quick and painless death, or weeks of drawn out suffering?

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

You seem to excpect them to live, which I will admit of all Cosmere world is most possible on Roshar, but even as advanced medically as they are survival is not garunteed, and then they die anyway.

So again I ask, Quick and painless death, or weeks of drawn out suffering?

Quick and painless death that accomplishes nothing, or "drawn out" suffering that prevents or at least discourages further crimes?

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Quick and painless death that accomplishes nothing, or "drawn out" suffering that prevents or at least discourages further crimes?

Which one would you prefer?

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Which one would you prefer?

Now, don't take this as an endorsement of torturing criminals to inspire fear in other criminals, but I prefer, in this specific case, the capture of the criminals. Jasnah suddenly has political power in Karbranth. No one wants to displease the Alethi, so the person in charge of the guard will stop for at least a little while, and it will give Taravangian more power to stop the problem from happening.

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

I suppose my point is that vigilantes act in the name of the public without asking the public what they want.  Maybe the barmaids and patrons of the Ralinsa want a trial, maybe they want restorative justice rather than retribution.  I don't know.  You're right Pathfinder.  I can only speak for myself.  Jasnah doesn't know either though.  Just like she doesn't know what those men's stories were or what might have happened if she let them live.  

The reason why I responded that way is because by assuming what the victims would or would not want is the same thing as assuming that the killers were either angels just dragged down the wrong path, or sociopathic serial killers. We have no information to lead us to believe in either direction. It is pure conjecture. 

So essentially it is Schrodinger's killers and victims. They are both misunderstood/angelic and nefarious/revenge laden in equal measure till the "box" is opened. 

 

1. The killers were misunderstood ruffians forced down a path and if only they had a chance they would be redeemed wonderful members of society, and those innocents killed would righteously wish their deaths inspired reform and the betterment of all. 

or

2. The killers were bloodthirsty, foaming at the mouth serial killers, drooling at the thought of their next killer. The rush and power of taking a life.  The innocents killed, just walking home, trying to eke out a living to keep young Timmy in crutches having food on the table each night, and Jenny able to study at the local school. When their mommy and daddy's simple lives were cut short in horrid fashion. That the spirits of the dead call out in rage and retribution as those killers continue their bloody rampage.

 

See how diametrically opposed it can be presented? And with the information we have to draw on, both can be equally true. So for myself at least, I do not think painting such a dichotomy is conducive for discussing the subject matter. 

 

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Would you be cool telling the innocent civilians in Kharbranth something like "hey I killed three of the thugs on the street but since the police are corrupt, and it would take me too long to change that there'll be more out there by tomorrow night"?

They could be back out tomorrow night, in a week, month, year, or try another enterprise. They could be so scared straight not knowing when someone else will have a means to end them, so it isn't worth it anymore. There are plenty of what ifs. The certainty we can however confirm is those three individuals will not be continuing the crime. 

Quote

Trees don't intend to be lightening rods, but that doesn't mean it's smart to stand underneath one during a thunderstorm. (Paraphrased quote from Kingkiller Chronicles)

But if you can prevent thunderstorms from striking the tree, allowing people shelter there, even if for a time?

edit: actually to fully connect the analogy, some people have to go to that tree. They have no other choice. Or some people go to that tree not knowing there is a thunderstorm. Is it fair to those people to say simply "well you shouldn't have sheltered under the tree?". 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Pathfinder

[SomeRandomPeasant]

On 1/26/2022 at 6:05 AM, Frustration said:

I will again repeat the danger of doing that. the pit has to be at least as deep as they are tall, and it's completly unexcpected, it's like throwing someone asleep into a pit.

Frustration I thought we were past this.  Feel free to argue that Jasnah was right to kill those the footpads, but we readers shouldn't pretend that Jasnah was incapable of non-fatally subduing them.  To do so would be severely underestimated Jasnah's abilities.  Like I said many times, soul casting someone into smoke costs more stormlight than casting inorganic material into into one of the ten essences.

Jasnah could easily turn the stone from under the footpads into oil, than turn that oil into stone.  This is a simple, easy plan that a genius like Jasnah is certainly capable of coming up with, especially since she had time to make up a plan before hand.  Oil and stone are inorganic material and therefore cost less stormlight than turning the footpads into smoke/ burning a footpad.  You keep saying that Jasnah doesn't have enough stormlight to do this, but turning organic material (like the flesh of the footpads) into smoke costs more stormlight than transforming inorganic materal.  Jasnah also knew that there would be footpads in that ally, which means she could have brought as much stormlight as she needed to carry out whatever plan she wanted.  If she needed more stormlight to non fatally subdue the footpads, she could have brought some more. 

However, Jasnah choose to kill rather than subdue, because Jasnah wanted to kill those footpads (rightly or wrongly).  Jasnah didn't kill those footpads because she had no other choice, she killed them because she thought it was right to do so.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Frustration I thought we were past this.  Feel free to argue that Jasnah was right to kill those the footpads, but we readers shouldn't pretend that Jasnah was incapable of non-fatally subduing them.  To do so would be severely underestimated Jasnah's abilities.  Like I said many times, soul casting someone into smoke costs more stormlight than casting inorganic material into into one of the ten essences.

Jasnah could easily turn the stone from under the footpads into oil, than turn that oil into stone.  This is a simple, easy plan that a genius like Jasnah is certainly capable of coming up with, especially since she had time to make up a plan before hand.  Oil and stone are inorganic material and therefore cost less stormlight than turning the footpads into smoke/ burning a footpad.  You keep saying that Jasnah doesn't have enough stormlight to do this, but turning organic material (like the flesh of the footpads) into smoke costs more stormlight than transforming inorganic materal.  Jasnah also knew that there would be footpads in that ally, which means she could have brought as much stormlight as she needed to carry out whatever plan she wanted.  If she needed more stormlight to non fatally subdue the footpads, she could have brought some more. 

As I have said before soulcasting part of an object is harder than soulcasting all of it,

Additionally your method requires multiple castings, increasing the demand on Stormlight, over simply soulcasting the individuals

And on top of that soulcasting Oil into stone will cause it to constrict, that means if you have your feet in the oil you are losing those feet.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:25 AM, Pathfinder said:

I think it does also need to be considered the time frame in which Jasnah was working. She was focused on preventing the end of the world. She spent her every waking moment researching and trying to find a way to prevent the desolations from happening again. She was only in Kharbranth to research that. Frankly she would not have the time to put in the resources to reform Kharbranth, even assuming she could successfully do so as a foreign princess.

That too, in addition to the other factors. In-depth reform of the justice and policing systems of a nation she has no power in is a task that would take years or more likely decades of dedicated effort (if it's doable at all, which is far from certain), even being able to flex her "princess in a different nation from this one" muscles. Meanwhile, she's trying to prevent a Desolation, and if she weren't she'd probably be working on her own country. I feel it's pretty unreasonable to expect her to fix Kharbranth's issues, but nonetheless she wanted to do something to help the issue and did so, offering the thieves every chance to change their mind up until the moment she actually had a knife swung at her. She didn't force them to wait in the alley, she didn't force them to show themselves, she didn't force them to threaten her, she didn't force them to swing a weapon at her, she just walked down an alley perfectly normally up until the moment they actually tried to kill her.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

As I have said before soulcasting part of an object is harder than soulcasting all of it,

We have seen Jasnah easily transform huge amounts of stone into smoke when Shallan first comes to Kharbranth.  And this was without causing a smokestone gemstone to shatter like it shattered when Jasnah took out the footpads.  Soulcasting stone allys isn't beyond the capabilities of Jasnah.

We have seen Shallan a much, much less experienced Transformer soulcast an entire boat into water.  Yes soul casting parts of an object is harder but this is Jasnah, a highly skilled genius who has been Soulcasting for three years.  She could have Transformed the entire ally into oil if she wanted to.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Additionally your method requires multiple castings, increasing the demand on Stormlight, over simply soulcasting the individuals

As I have said many times the amount of stormlight doesn't matter because Jasnah can bring as much stormlight into the fight that she wants.  She wasn't surprised to see the footpads.  She knew that they would be there, so she could plan accordingly.  Even if transforming inorganic matter uses up more stormlight than transforming organic matter (which I doubt), Jasnah could have simply brought more stormlight if she needed to.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

And on top of that soulcasting Oil into stone will cause it to constrict, that means if you have your feet in the oil you are losing those feet.

This point confuses me.  Dunking the foopads into oil than transforming the oil into stone would be like dunking a strawberry in chocolate and then freezing the chocolate.  The strawberry remains the same, even if the coating around it changes.  The footpads displaced the oil when they fell in the oil.  So if the oil is transformed back into stone, the stone material wouldn't suddenly get bigger and expand out.  Are you saying that the stone would expand in the same way that water expands when in turns into ice?

Edited January 28, 2022 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

This point confuses me.  Dunking the foopads into oil than transforming the oil into stone would be like dunking a strawberry in chocolate and then freezing the chocolate.  The strawberry remains the same, even if the coating around it changes.  The footpads displaced the oil when they fell in the oil.  So if the oil is transformed back into stone, the stone material wouldn't suddenly get bigger and expand out.  Are you saying that the stone would expand in the same way that water expands when in turns into ice?

So just dropping in to explain this aspect. Water is the only known nonmetallic liquid that expands and floats when turned into a solid. Everything else constricts and sinks. 

As to the interaction frustration is referring to is the conservation of density regarding soulcasting. That is why the Boulder soulcast to smoke blasted out with such force. By changing the stone (very dense) to smoke (less dense), she made a whole lot of smoke super compressed in a small area. The environment seeking to reach equilibrium causes the smoke to violently shoot out. Apparently in the real world it would be as violent as TNT but for the sake of magic Brandon made it less violent.

So regarding your idea. By changing the rock to oil, the oil would overflow because there would be so much of it. The assailant might even be shot into the air depending on if Brandon would have it act like a geyser (also depending on how deep and narrow the pit was). 

But assuming that did not happen, and the assailant plopped into the liquid calmly, then changing the oil back to stone would be changing it to something very dense. We have not seen anyone become encased in stone in the manner you are suggesting so it may very well crush them. Think in a way what happens to water freezing in a Crack of cement. It pushes the cement out, widening the Crack. Just in this case, the action would be in the reverse direction.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Pathfinder

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But assuming that did not happen, and the assailant plopped into the liquid calmly, then changing the oil back to stone would be changing it to something very dense. We have not seen anyone become encased in stone in the manner you are suggesting so it may very well crush them. Think in a way what happens to water freezing in a Crack of cement. It pushes the cement out, widening the Crack. Just in this case, the action would be in the reverse direction.

Also, better hope none gets into their pores or skin or nose or mouth, otherwise they are dying a very excruciating death when it gets changed back.