[Poll] [Discuss] Did Jasnah do the right thing?

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

(potentially unjustly) footed with the bill for the entire thing,

There is no potentially about it, the fault of WW1 lies with Serbia, Austria, and to a much lesser extent Russia. Germany was actually trying to prevent the war from spreading in the first place.

16 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Where do you draw the line?  If Jasnah was justified in what she did, then where is the line?  The argument is that he Law wasn't working, at least not in that area, so she took it into her own hands.  These were Rapists and Murderers.  They deserved their fate.  

No, the argument is that anyone can for any reason enter any public space. And that if someone is attacked unjustly they have a right to defend themselves.

16 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

To be entirely honest, Jasnah shouldn't have gone after the Thugs.  She should have gone after the Constables.  People don't just become Thugs.  They are often pushed into it.  But corrupt constables choose to be that way.  They are the reason the ally was a cesspit.  If they were taken care of, and new Constables who would uphold the law were put in place, then the area would become safe.  The problem isn't the Darkeyes pushed to robbing people.  It's in the corrupt Lighteyes who are facilitating it.  

So the active murderers and rapists aren't responsible for their own actions?

4 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

To protect herself?  Nope.          

How can you make that ruling?

Are you insinuating that if unattack Jasnah would have found some random bum and killed them?

[ConfusedCow]

@Ookla the Frustrated She's a high level radiant with stormlight.  Those men could have stabbed her until they fell to the ground exhausted and she would be fine.  Jasnah wanted to kill someone she saw as a predator against women, but yes if she hadn't been attacked that night I think she would have been disappointed and gone out looking again.  Afterall, why is she so familiar with the street crime in the city in the first place?

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

@Ookla the Frustrated She's a high level radiant with stormlight.  Those men could have stabbed her until they fell to the ground exhausted and she would be fine.

Not really, she can only heal for the stormlight she has. And even so, she was attacked that constitutes enough of a threat for her to kill. And she definetly felt them a threat, you can look at the deleted PoV she has in WoR she is rocked to her core at being stabbed.

7 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

Jasnah wanted to kill someone she saw as a predator against women, but yes if she hadn't been attacked that night I think she would have been disappointed and gone out looking again.

So how is that not protecting herself? Or at the very least Shallan?

7 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

Afterall, why is she so familiar with the street crime in the city in the first place?

Because she's Jasnah

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[ConfusedCow]

@Ookla, you agree she wasn't protecting herself from the men running away? I extend that to the first man she killed, because she was far more powerful.  

[NameIess]

@Ookla the Frustrated Look at it this way. If superman pretended to be weakened in order to fool Lex Luthor and some goons into attacking him, then attacked them as soon as they tried to kill him, brutally killing Lex Luthor while he was trying to run away, would that be right?

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

36 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

@Ookla the Frustrated Look at it this way. If superman pretended to be weakened in order to fool Lex Luthor and some goons into attacking him, then attacked them as soon as they tried to kill him, brutally killing Lex Luthor while he was trying to run away, would that be right?

Well, that doesn't quite seem the same. Lex Luthor had tried to attack Superman before, so he knew his strengths and weaknesses. These men had just met Jasnah.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Confused said:

Well, that doesn't quite seem the same. Lex Luthor had tried to attack Superman before, so he knew his strengths and weaknesses. These men had just met Jasnah.

So... It's like if batman pretended to be an old lady, then pulled out a shotgun and killed anyone who tried to mug him?

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

@Ookla the Frustrated Look at it this way. If superman pretended to be weakened in order to fool Lex Luthor and some goons into attacking him, then attacked them as soon as they tried to kill him, brutally killing Lex Luthor while he was trying to run away, would that be right?

First off nothing short of Kryptonite would kill Superman, any old dager will kill Jasnah.

Second off, if Luthor did have kryptonite, then yes.

Quote

So... It's like if batman pretended to be an old lady, then pulled out a shotgun and killed anyone who tried to mug him?

Yes.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

So... It's like if batman pretended to be an old lady, then pulled out a shotgun and killed anyone who tried to mug him?

See, now that just doesn't seem right.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

First off nothing short of Kryptonite would kill Superman, any old dager will kill Jasnah.

Second off, if Luthor did have kryptonite, then yes.

Jasnah had effectively no chance of dying to those men. She also killed multiple of them while they were running away. Do you think that killing people while they run away after not making any direct attempts on her life was right? 

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Yes.

So you think Batman would be justified in doing so? To make it more real, do you think that anyone would be justified in doing so? If a person regularly hunted criminals in that way, would that be right or legal?

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Jasnah had effectively no chance of dying to those men. She also killed multiple of them while they were running away. Do you think that killing people while they run away after not making any direct attempts on her life was right? 

They did in fact make a direct attempt on her life, that's why they had the knives in the first place.

And while that situation lasts they have given themselves into her judgement.

11 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

So you think Batman would be justified in doing so? To make it more real, do you think that anyone would be justified in doing so? If a person regularly hunted criminals in that way, would that be right or legal?

lets do a bit of process of illimination here.

1. Is actively making yourself look weaker or more vulnerable illegal or immoral? No.
2. Is killing individuals in self defence illegal or immoral? No.

Therefore so long as it is the other individual that starts the confrontation what they are doing is acceptable.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

They did in fact make a direct attempt on her life, that's why they had the knives in the first place.

And while that situation lasts they have given themselves into her judgement.

One of them did. The others ran away after the first one died. They no longer posed a direct threat to her. Self defense can only be used to prevent imminent injury and death, which the criminals who were running away did not threaten.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

lets do a bit of process of illimination here.

1. Is actively making yourself look weaker or more vulnerable illegal or immoral? No.
2. Is killing individuals in self defence illegal or immoral? No.

Therefore so long as it is the other individual that starts the confrontation what they are doing is acceptable.

3. Is hunting down criminals and killing them without trial evil? Yes.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

One of them did. The others ran away after the first one died. They no longer posed a direct threat to her. Self defense can only be used to prevent imminent injury and death, which the criminals who were running away did not threaten.

Form percpective Jasnah did not have a lot of time to internalize that information, if I was put in the same circumstances I can't say I wouldn't have killed them before fully realising they were fleeing, or that they weren't trying to get others, or seeking a better oportunity to attack me.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

3. Is hunting down criminals and killing them without trial evil? Yes.

It isn't hunting if they attack you. In the listed scenario the individual did not find criminals and kill them, they waited got attacked and used lethal force in the preservation of their own life.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Form percpective Jasnah did not have a lot of time to internalize that information, if I was put in the same circumstances I can't say I wouldn't have killed them before fully realising they were fleeing, or that they weren't trying to get others, or seeking a better oportunity to attack me.

Jasnah had plenty of time to internalize that information. I doubt she was ever anything other than completely analytical throughout the entire encounter.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

It isn't hunting if they attack you. In the listed scenario the individual did not find criminals and kill them, they waited got attacked and used lethal force in the preservation of their own life.

They manipulated the situation to kill criminals in a legal way. Thus they are hunting criminals, whatever their methods of doing so are.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Jasnah had plenty of time to internalize that information. I doubt she was ever anything other than completely analytical throughout the entire encounter.

Being anylitical does not prevent you from acting out of instinct.

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

They manipulated the situation to kill criminals in a legal way. Thus they are hunting criminals, whatever their methods of doing so are.

They did not provoke the interaction, and their lives were in danger, they are allowed to use lethal force in that situation, nothing else matters.

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Being anylitical does not prevent you from acting out of instinct.

Saying that "instinct took over" seems like an excuse to me. 

Jasnah was in complete control of the situation, and they couldn't kill her in a million years. I would have a problem with a cop shooting someone in the back, or a soldier gunning down a surrendering fighter.  Are you telling me that you are okay with this?  Could any cop claim that they were just acting instinct as an excuse to kill any criminal who is running away? Is Jasnah not even accountable for that? Just because Superman has the ability to kill any criminal who comes his way, it doesn't mean he should.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Saying that "instinct took over" seems like an excuse to me.  Jasnah was in complete control of the situation, and they couldn't kill her in a million years.  I would have a problem with a cop shooting someone in the back, or a soldier gunning down a surrendering fighter.  Are you telling me that you are okay with this?  Could any cop claim that they were just acting instinct as an excuse to kill any criminal who is running away? Is Jasnah not even accountable for that? Just because Superman has the ability to kill any criminal who comes his way, it doesn't mean he should.

Yes, you can never be certain why someone is running, it could be to save themselves, or it could be to bring others into the fight, or to move to a more advantageous position.

So long as the individual who was initially attacked believes them to still be an active threat it is within their rights to kill them.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Yes, you can never be certain why someone is running, it could be to save themselves, or it could be to bring others into the fight, or to move to a more advantageous position.

So long as the individual who was initially attacked believes them to still be an active threat it is within their rights to kill them.

I should note that self defense does not allow you to shoot people who are running away. And also that the individual needs to reasonably feel that their lives are in danger to kill. Running away removes the reason from the belief that unless you kill these people now, they will kill or do great bodily harm to you.

[ConfusedCow]

To briefly raise a more important question than the ethics of murder.  Why is everyone named Ookla? 

[Robin Sedai she/her]

It's a yearly tradition. Here's a thread that explains it: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/87688-whats-with-all-the-ooklas-2019-edition/

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

I should note that self defense does not allow you to shoot people who are running away. And also that the individual needs to reasonably feel that their lives are in danger to kill. Running away removes the reason from the belief that unless you kill these people now, they will kill or do great bodily harm to you.

Someone can run to get reinforcements and are thus still a combatant.

1 minute ago, ConfusedCow said:

To briefly raise a more important question than the ethics of murder.  Why is everyone named Ookla? 

Murder is a legal term and one which does not apply

It's an annual holiday lasting between Peter Ahlstroms birthday and Brandon's birthday

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Someone can run to get reinforcements and are thus still a combatant.

Yes. All three of those men were obviously running to go get reinforcements. After one of them TURNED TO FIRE IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES. They definitely had at least ten more guys willing to rush a soulcaster. They definitely didn't look so scared that Shallan Davar could easily see it. They definitely didn't trip over themselves in their panic as they fled, cursing, in opposite directions.

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Yes, you can never be certain why someone is running, it could be to save themselves, or it could be to bring others into the fight, or to move to a more advantageous position.

So long as the individual who was initially attacked believes them to still be an active threat it is within their rights to kill them.

Jasnah wasn't high on the the Thrill, and the Thrill is already a poor justification for butchering people anyway.  Jasnah knew exactly what she was doing.

If Jasnah or you said, "well I made a mistake as a demigod, but I will try to do better next time" than that would be alright.  People make mistakes.  But it seems that you don't see this as a problem.  It seems like you are saying, well they were bastards anyway who cares if they die? I would agree that they might have deserved to die.  That doesn't give meaning I think it is okay for Jasnah to kill a fleeing target.  Subdue him and have him hung if he really deserves it.

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Someone can run to get reinforcements and are thus still a combatant.

You don't know that.  Again, if she was a mortal human, I can understand her going to far out of fear for her life and others. But Jasnah could have easily transformed the stone from under him into smoke.  She had the power to pursue non lethal methods and she choose otherwise. 

Out of curiosity, if a protest turned into a riot, and the rioters started to charge at the security guards, would you think that the guards would be justified in immediately gunning the rioters down? Or should altnernative methods be used, and killing be used as a last resort.  I know this isn't set in the world of Roshar.  I just want to hear what you think.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Yes. All three of those men were obviously running to go get reinforcements. After one of them TURNED TO FIRE IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES. They definitely had at least ten more guys willing to rush a soulcaster. They definitely didn't look so scared that Shallan Davar could easily see it. They definitely didn't trip over themselves in their panic as they fled, cursing, in opposite directions.

You can never be certain.

3 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

If Jasnah or you said, "well I made a mistake as a demigod, but I will try to do better next time".  But it seems that you don't see this as a problem.  It seems like you are saying, well they were bastards anyway who cares if they die? I would agree that they might have deserved to die.  That doesn't give meaning I think it is okay for Jasnah to kill a fleeing target.  Subdue him and have him hung if he really deserves it.

What method of subduing them would you recommend that is more humane than instant painless death?

3 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

You don't know that.  Again, if she was a mortal human, I can understand her going to far out of fear for her life and others. But Jasnah could have easily transformed the stone from under him into smoke.  She had the power to pursue no lethal methods and she choose otherwise. 

 Well first off I doubt she had the stormlight on her to actually make that work, and even if she did he would break his legs or die of brain truama from dropping into a pit large enough to hold him.

5 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Out of curiosity, if a protest turned into a riot, and the rioters started to charge at the security guards, would you think that they would be justified in immediately gunning the rioters down? Or should altnernative methods be used, and killing be used as a last resort.  I know this isn't set in the world of Roshar.  I just want to hear what you think.

If an angery mob charges you, open fire.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

 Well first off I doubt she had the stormlight on her to actually make that work, and even if she did he would break his legs or die of brain truama from dropping into a pit large enough to hold him.

Easy holding options: Clothes to metal or stone. Make a block of stone around their legs. Ground beneath them to tar.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

You can never be certain.

Yeah, but at that point, I stretches the grounds of reasonable belief. Besides that, we know she didn't think they were still a threat to her, because she went there to kill those men. Reasonable belief only matters in legality. Jasnah practically admits that she knew the other thieves were fleeing and killed them anyways, and considering her character, she would certainly recognize that they were running away. She would not lose herself to emotions such as fear.