[Poll] [Discuss] Did Jasnah do the right thing?

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Neither of these kill the men, both of them incapacitate them. Jasnah can take them in to the authorities, express her discontent with the city guard for allowing criminals such as this to run free. Criminals get executed immediately, crooked guard captain takes a major political blow at best, gets fired or demoted at worst.

So if their dead either way why not take the path that gives them the least pain?

8 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Ah yes. Self defense. Killing someone because if I ignore them, they will be in a good position to kill me. Yes, those are the only two options. killing the blubbering mess, or turning your back and leaving yourself completely open to attack. Not like you could simply lock him to the ground, then walk away.

When you have two other individuals to deal with at the same time yes.

And if you mess up the proportions of the inprisonment at all you fail to contain them.

Quote

Yes, the laws work. They may have flaws, but they work.

How do they work? The powerful and the rich get away with things every day that you or I would be jailed for.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

How do they work? The powerful and the rich get away with things every day that you or I would be jailed for.

Yes, but that has to do with either little loopholes, or a corrupt judicial system. Murder, however, is murder. Obviously, it's never okay.

Also, I do think Jasnah's actions would save more lives than they took. And yes, I do know about the trolley problem. I really don't see why anyone thinks leaving the train on the track with five people is the better option.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Confused said:

Yes, but that has to do with either little loopholes, or a corrupt judicial system. Murder, however, is murder. Obviously, it's never okay.

Murder is not ok, but this isn't murder.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Murder is not ok, but this isn't murder.

How is it not murder? Again:

murder, noun:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ookla the Confused said:

How is it not murder? Again:

murder, noun:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

I've gone over this

If I am walking in the dark and I think, "if someone jumps me I'll shoot them" that isn't murder that is textbook self defence.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I've gone over this

If I am walking in the dark and I think, "if someone jumps me I'll shoot them" that isn't murder that is textbook self defence.

It is, but it also isn't. According to legaldictionary.net,

Quote

Self defense laws in the U.S. dictate that a person is allowed to use force against another person if it “reasonably” appears necessary to do so. Situations that would call for the use of force involve those wherein a threat of “unlawful” and “immediate” violence has presented itself. In these cases, a person may be permitted to use either deadly or non-deadly force in order to protect himself or his family.

Self defense laws restrict the protections of such a defense for those who initiate the conflict. There are two ways a person can remain protected under self defense laws if he was the one to start the conflict. The first is if he chose to leave the fight and informed the aggressor of his surrender, and the aggressor pursued him anyway. The second is if the other person responded to the presentation of a conflict with excessive force.

Jasnah clearly responded to this situation with "excessive force." She definitely could have injured these men instead of killing them here. You said tiithat she might break their legs, but that isn't the same thing as murdering them.

And yes, it was murder. It was unlawful, so it was murder.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Confused said:

Jasnah clearly responded to this situation with "excessive force." She definitely could have injured these men instead of killing them here. You said tiithat she might break their legs, but that isn't the same thing as murdering them.

They were dead from the moment they attacked her, if she didn't do it someone lese would, she just gave them a painless death rather than weeks of multiple broken bones followed by at least a hanging and most being left outside in a highstorm.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

They were dead from the moment they attacked her, if she didn't do it someone lese would, she just gave them a painless death rather than weeks of multiple broken bones followed by at least a hanging and most being left outside in a highstorm.

I'm not convinced that she couldn't find a way to not break their bones.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ookla the Confused said:

I'm not convinced that she couldn't find a way to not break their bones.

I have yet to see a reasonable way she could have contained them without it.

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I have yet to see a reasonable way she could have contained [the footpads] without [killing them].

You can claim that Jasnah was right to kill those footpads, but you absolutely cannot claim that Jasnah was actually incapable of subduing the the footpads without killing them.

Seriously, what is wrong with Jasnah turning the stone under the foot pads into oil, then once they are submerged, turn the oil back into stone?.  This would cost less stormlight than turning the organic flesh of the footpads into smoke.  No risk of breaking bones (although I have no idea why you care so much about the foot pads being slightly injured).

Edited December 13, 2021 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

You can claim that Jasnah was right to kill those footpads, but you absolutely cannot claim that Jasnah was actually incapable of subduing the the footpads without killing them.

Seriously what is wrong with Jasnah turning the stone under the foot pads into oil, then once they are submerged, turn the oil back into stone.  This would cost less stormlight than turning the organic flesh of the footpads into smoke.  No risk of breaking bones (although I have no idea why you care so much about the foot pads being slightly injured).

Shattering your legs is a bit more than slightly injured.

Turning the ground beneath them to oil could work, but it would cost a lot more stormlight than you are making it out to be, you have to change a large portion, but not the entirety of the alleyway into oil, and then change it back. And what happens in they are shorter than you excpected and are up to mid stomach? What happens if they had just exhaled when you soulcast the oil back into stone?

They suffocate to death. Transformation is a precice and deadly art.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Shattering your legs is a bit more than slightly injured.

Turning the ground beneath them to oil could work, but it would cost a lot more stormlight than you are making it out to be, you have to change a large portion, but not the entirety of the alleyway into oil, and then change it back. And what happens in they are shorter than you excpected and are up to mid stomach? What happens if they had just exhaled when you soulcast the oil back into stone?

They suffocate to death. Transformation is a precice and deadly art.

BUT. THIS. IS. JASNAH.

Have you read her chapter in RoW?

Sure, Transformation is a precise and deadly art, but she's really good at it!

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

55 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Shattering your legs is a bit more than slightly injured.

If you want to say that breaking your legs is a really bad, fine.  Why do you care? A temporary injury is better then killing them.  Why do you now suddenly care about there comfort?

55 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Turning the ground beneath them to oil could work, but it would cost a lot more stormlight than you are making it out to be, you have to change a large portion, but not the entirety of the alleyway into oil, and then change it back.

As I have said and you have said, transforming organic matter uses more stormlight than transforming inorganic matter.  Jasnah has confirmed that turning organic matter into an essance uses alot more stormlight than turning inorganic stone into an essance.  Using stormlight to change every cell in the footpads body into smoke would have taken alot more stormlight than changing the stone under them in to oil.  She had the ability to execute pinpoint attacks on all four of the footpads.  Why would she now be unable to target the ground from under them?

The amount of stormlight needed is irrelevent anyway.  Jasnah went into that alley prepared for a fight  She could have brought exactly the amount of stormlight needed to subdue or kill, the footpads.  If she needed more stormlight to turn the alley into oil, then she could have brought more stormlight.  But she never saw subduing the footpads as in option.  She choose to kill the footpads (rightly or wrongly), she didn't have to chose between letting them go and killing them on the spot.

By the way, Jasnah admits that she intentionally killed the footpads.  Shallan asks her why the footpads had to die and Jasnah said they might have harmed others.  Jasnah never said, I wanted to let subdue them, but they gave me no choice.

55 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

And what happens in they are shorter than you excpected and are up to mid stomach? What happens if they had just exhaled when you soulcast the oil back into stone?  They suffocate to death. Transformation is a precice and deadly art.

Your lungs are in your chest, not your stomach.  But even if Jasnah accidentally submerged them up to their necks, the human body lives for four minutes without oxygen.  These footpads would have lost consciousness after 30 seconds.  Once they were unconscious, Jasnah could more accurately change their stone prison.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

You're kind of reminding me of myself, @Ookla the Frustrated.  Sometimes, when I've lost an argument, I just don't want to let go.

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Confused said:

BUT. THIS. IS. JASNAH.

Have you read her chapter in RoW?

Sure, Transformation is a precise and deadly art, but she's really good at it!

She's good at killing, excpertly manipulating the terrain to cause no harm?

That's really hard, especially with moving targets and limited stormlight.

And I have yet to see a plausible way to do it.

27 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

If you want to say that breaking your legs is a really bad, fine.  Why do you care? A temporary injury is better then killing them.  Why do you now suddenly care about there comfort?

I don't really care, I'm more pushing back against the idea that it was a far easier method, for me all that matters is that they attacked wihtout provocation.

27 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

As I have said and you have said, transforming organic matter uses more stormlight than transforming inorganic matter.  Jasnah has confirmed that turning organic matter into an essance uses alot more stormlight than turning inorganic stone into an essance.  She had the ability to execute pinpoint attacks on all four of the footpads.  Why would she now be unable to target the ground from under them?

Because soulcasting an object is just as hard whether or not it's in motion, Soulcasting part of a singular object directly underneath a moving object is difficult.

52 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

The amount of stormlight needed is irrelevent anyway.  Jasnah went into that alley prepared for a fight  She could have brought exactly the amount of stormlight needed to subdue or kill, the footpads.  If she needed more stormlight to turn the alley into oil, then she could have brought more stormlight.  But she never saw subduing the footpads as in option.  She choose to kill the footpads (rightly or wrongly), she didn't have to chose between letting them go and killing them on the spot.son.

She chose to kill anyone that attacked her, as is her right.

53 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Your lungs are in your chest, not your stomach.  But even if Jasnah accidentally submerged them up to their necks, the human body lives for four minutes without oxygen.  These footpads would have lost consciousness after 30 seconds.  Once they were unconscious, Jasnah could more accurately change their stone prison.

and that's just one of the possible issues, what if their head poped up and you thought their head was free and you soulcast it to stone with their nose under?

Or stuck them in a position that cut off circulation to their legs?

There are so many ways that that goes wrong.

48 minutes ago, Ookla the Confused said:

You're kind of reminding me of myself, @Ookla the Frustrated.  Sometimes, when I've lost an argument, I just don't want to let go.

You assume too much.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

and that's just one of the possible issues, what if their head poped up and you thought their head was free and you soulcast it to stone with their nose under?

Or stuck them in a position that cut off circulation to their legs?

There are so many ways that that goes wrong.

But it's better than outright killing them. They might die anyway due to her actions, but that has a chance of being manslaughter, not murder.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Confused said:

But it's better than outright killing them.

Why?

1 minute ago, Ookla the Confused said:

They might die anyway due to her actions,

They WILL die becuase of their actions, be it Jasnah, Taravangian, or some other noble, nobody wants war with the alethi so they will be killed to appease them.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Confused said:

but that has a chance of being manslaughter, not murder.

Again, not murder.

[NameIess]

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

for me all that matters is that they attacked wihtout provocation.

The three that ran did not attack her. She was justified in killing the first man, but the remaining three ran.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

The three that ran did not attack her. She was justified in killing the first man, but the remaining three ran.

They were part of the attack and sufficent time had not passed for me to rule the situation as ended.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

They were part of the attack and sufficent time had not passed for me to rule the situation as ended.

It's not about time. It's about whether or not they are actively attacking Jasnah. Which they do not.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

It's not about time. It's about whether or not they are actively attacking Jasnah. Which they do not.

So someone can jump you with a knife, and then the second it stops going well for them give up, wait for a more convinent opportunity and try again?

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

So someone can jump you with a knife, and then the second it stops going well for them give up, wait for a more convinent opportunity and try again?

1. They didn't jump Jasnah with a knife, only one of them did. The one who Jasnah killed

2. They were not going to wait for a more convenient opportunity. They were running from her.

3. Even if they were simply running away to attack her later, Jasnah could easily have escaped that situation by walking to a safer part of the city.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ookla the unintelligible said:

1. They didn't jump Jasnah with a knife, only one of them did. The one who Jasnah killed

They all were working together.

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

2. They were not going to wait for a more convenient opportunity. They were running from her.

impossible to tell

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

3. Even if they were simply running away to attack her later, Jasnah could easily have escaped that situation by walking to a safer part of the city.

I don't belive in obligation to retreat.

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

impossible to tell

Not really. They were visibly terrified.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I don't belive in obligation to retreat.

Well, I kind of do.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Well, I kind of do.

As is your right.