[Poll] [Discuss] Did Jasnah do the right thing?

[Szeth_Pancakes]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

They all were working together.

impossible to tell

I don't belive in obligation to retreat.

This is honestly getting ridiculous.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Confused said:

This is honestly getting ridiculous.

I think it's been like that for a while now.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

@Ookla the Frustrated I thought we could agree on one thing, Jasnah choose to kill those criminals.  At this point I don't care if she was right or wrong to kill them, she might have been right to kill them.  However, you keep saying that Jasnah was either incapable of non fatally subduing them, or she had to kill all of them because they could run away and get reinforcements.  But Jasnah admits many times that this isn't the case.  Jasnah simply wanted to eliminate them.

Way of Kings Chapter 36:

Quote

"You all but asked for what happened!" [Shallan said]

"Does that make it right?" Jasnah said, leaning forward.  "Do you condone what the men were planning to do?"

"Of course not.  But that doesn't make what you did right either!"

"And yet, those men are off the streets.  The people of this city are much safer.  The issue that Taravangian has been so worried about has been solved, and no more theatergoers will fall to those thugs."

"You only needed to kill one of them." 

"No I didn't" Jasnah said

"Why? They would have been too frightened to do something like that again."

"You don't know that.  I sincerely wanted those men gone.  A careless barmaid walking home the wrong way cannot protect herself, but I can.  And I will."

"You have no authority to do so, not in someone else's city"

"True". Jasnah said.  "Another point to consider, I suppose."  She raised the brush to her hair, pointedly turning away from Shallan.  She closed her eyes, as if to shut Shallan out.  

---

Jasnah said the foot pads might have harmed others.  This is Jasnah's philosophy and that's fine.  But we readers shouldn't pretend that Jasnah didn't have the ability to simply capture them.  Jasnah never said, I wanted to subdue them, but they gave me no choice. She didn't kill the footpads because Jasnah was hopped up on adrenalin or because killing them was more humane than capturing them.  Jasnah definitely wanted them eliminated.  If the the foot pads, got on their hands and knees and begged for mercy, Jasnah still probably would have killed them.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I thought we could agree on one thing, Jasnah choose to kill those criminals.  At this point I don't care if she was right or wrong to kill them, she might have been right to kill them.  However you keep saying that Jasnah was either incapable of killing them, or she had to kill all of them because they could run away and get reinforcements.  But Jasnah admits many times that this isn't the case.  Jasnah simply wanted to eliminate them.

Way of Kings Chapter 36:

 

---

Jasnah said the foot pads might have harmed others.  This is Jasnah's philosophy and that's fine.  But we readers shouldn't pretend that Jasnah didn't have the ability to simply capture them.  Jasnah never said, I wanted to let subdue them, but they gave me no choice. She didn't kill the footpads because it was Jasnah was hopped up on adrenalin or because killing them is more humane than capturing them.  Jasnah definitely want them eliminated.  If the the foot pads, got on their hands and knees and begged for mercy, Jasnah still probably would have killed them.  Y

Maybe she would have maybe she wouldn't I'm not going to judge on what might have happened, at that point I would say she shouldn't kill them but that didn't happen.

[Trusk'our]

In my opinion, no, Jasnah did not do the right thing.

Now, I do think that she had the right to self defense. I do think that she should be allowed to go where she would like, as it is her choice. I think that if this situation were put in court, there would be enough arguments in her defense that she wouldn't be seen as anything other than a victim.

However, I believe that she should have and could have handled the situation much better than she did. She, at the time, was a princess of Alethkar, and had a great deal of practical, if not political influence, and even if those thugs had friends in higher places to protect them from the law...pardon me but, um, how on Roshar would they be able to legally outmaneuver someone of Jasnah Kholin's caliber if they were arrested and she really wanted them properly sentenced for their crimes?

Not only that, but what Jasnah did was not self defense. She is a knight radiant, and is therefore able to regenerate from pretty much any kind of bodily harm so long as she has enough stormlight. She was never in any serious danger. Plus, she knew the danger well ahead of time, and went there anyway while displaying her wealth for no other reason than to push them to attack her.

Additionally, she could have merely incapacitated them instead of killing them with her radiant powers. She could have soulcast the ground around them, trapping them until the police were forced to come and aid, because even if they were corrupt, there's no way that they would ignore a princess, foreign or not, to be accosted like that.

What's more, because Jasnah is a knight radiant, she should be trying to be more willing to accept that others can change. become better. That's the point of the oaths, isn't it?

In reality, Jasnah had a lot more options that, in my mind, would have been far more humane and ethical. I can't see that someone as intelligent and observant as Jasnah would overlook such things accidentally; she didn't kill those men because she just wanted them to stop hurting people, she killed them because she wanted them dead.

I realize this is a strong opinion, and may likely upset people who like her character. I am sorry if I offend you with my thoughts; I merely wish to share what I, personally, think.

[Bort]

When looking at the question provided for the poll, there is only one real answer - Yes. Jasnah did the right thing in taking out the men that were mugging her.

Why? Because the question ONLY looks at the immediacy of the action, and doesn't touch upon Jasnah's motivations at all, and as has been mentioned several times already, Jasnah had every right to defend herself. This answer would be the same no matter who it was walking down that alley. Therefore, when taking into account the wording of the question, the only possible answer could be 'Yes'.

The question becomes fuzzier when Jasnah's motivations and alternative options are taken into account. Then it's not simply a question of, "Is this the right action to take?" but rather becomes an investigation of Jasnah's capabilities, motives, and options. Most of which would say that Jasnah's actions were 'wrong' because of her abilities giving her other options besides simply killing them, plus her comment about wanting those men dead.

[ConfusedCow]

       Kezim and his brothers Ishil and Lamar had been house guards in Vedenar.  They stood tall with bright shields bearing the glyphs of Highprince Rajen.  That had been 15 years ago. Before the border conflicts with Alethkar.  Before Kezim had taken the arrow to his lung, before Ishil had been left half blind from the blow to his head, before Lamar's eyes had burned, before the Blackthorn. 

        Kezim and Ishil had spent what spheres they had saved on the passage to Kharbranth.  The surgeons had been true to their word.  They had pulled the arrow head from Kezim's chest.  They nursed him through the first months of recovery.  They gave Ishil herbs to ease the terrible headaches that still plagued him.  Then they were discharged, alone, penniless, in foreign land.  

         The ships wouldn't take them.  Kezim was prone to coughing fits after a days labor and captains distrusted Ishil's eye.  They found work along the docks, guard duty, moving cargo.  They made just enough to afford meals and a room in the back of a tavern to share.  Kezim could never shake the nightmares.  He lay on the ground, blood in his throat, watching the arrows fall around him.  There in the distance the demon, gigantic, grey, and always coming closer.  The drinking began as a way to let him sleep.

          Ishil just stopped breathing one night.  The ardents were kind.  They cleaned him.  They spoke about how he was going to fight in the Tranquiline halls.  Kezim hoped he could rest first. After that the drinking got worse.  By the time Sekir started asking him to look out for valuable cargo being brought in, Kezim spent most days sleeping under the piers a bottle in his hand.  

          He was laying under the pier when he saw her arrive.  Kholin, Jasnah Kholin.  Almighty she was beautiful.  The king himself seemed awed by her.  "Those earing,alone could buy a ship."  Sekir muttured, clapping Kezim on the back.  "Can you meet me for drinks at the tavern tonight. There's someone I'd like you to meet.  A captain, a proper soldier, he spoke of work ..."  

 

          

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

       Kezim and his brothers Ishil and Lamar had been house guards in Vedenar.  They stood tall with bright shields bearing the glyphs of Highprince Rajen.  That had been 15 years ago. Before the border conflicts with Alethkar.  Before Kezim had taken the arrow to his lung, before Ishil had been left half blind from the blow to his head, before Lamar's eyes had burned, before the Blackthorn. 

        Kezim and Ishil had spent what spheres they had saved on the passage to Kharbranth.  The surgeons had been true to their word.  They had pulled the arrow head from Kezim's chest.  They nursed him through the first months of recovery.  They gave Ishil herbs to ease the terrible headaches that still plagued him.  Then they were discharged, alone, penniless, in foreign land.  

         The ships wouldn't take them.  Kezim was prone to coughing fits after a days labor and captains distrusted Ishil's eye.  They found work along the docks, guard duty, moving cargo.  They made just enough to afford meals and a room in the back of a tavern to share.  Kezim could never shake the nightmares.  He lay on the ground, blood in his throat, watching the arrows fall around him.  There in the distance the demon, gigantic, grey, and always coming closer.  The drinking began as a way to let him sleep.

          Ishil just stopped breathing one night.  The ardents were kind.  They cleaned him.  They spoke about how he was going to fight in the Tranquiline halls.  Kezim hoped he could rest first. After that the drinking got worse.  By the time Sekir started asking him to look out for valuable cargo being brought in, Kezim spent most days sleeping under the piers a bottle in his hand.  

          He was laying under the pier when he saw her arrive.  Kholin, Jasnah Kholin.  Almighty she was beautiful.  The king himself seemed awed by her.  "Those earing,alone could buy a ship."  Sekir muttured, clapping Kezim on the back.  "Can you meet me for drinks at the tavern tonight. There's someone I'd like you to meet.  A captain, a proper soldier, he spoke of work ..."  

 

          

Jasnah was not the first they had an established routine of doing that, other than that good job.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

       Kezim and his brothers Ishil and Lamar had been house guards in Vedenar.  They stood tall with bright shields bearing the glyphs of Highprince Rajen.  That had been 15 years ago. Before the border conflicts with Alethkar.  Before Kezim had taken the arrow to his lung, before Ishil had been left half blind from the blow to his head, before Lamar's eyes had burned, before the Blackthorn. 

        Kezim and Ishil had spent what spheres they had saved on the passage to Kharbranth.  The surgeons had been true to their word.  They had pulled the arrow head from Kezim's chest.  They nursed him through the first months of recovery.  They gave Ishil herbs to ease the terrible headaches that still plagued him.  Then they were discharged, alone, penniless, in foreign land.  

         The ships wouldn't take them.  Kezim was prone to coughing fits after a days labor and captains distrusted Ishil's eye.  They found work along the docks, guard duty, moving cargo.  They made just enough to afford meals and a room in the back of a tavern to share.  Kezim could never shake the nightmares.  He lay on the ground, blood in his throat, watching the arrows fall around him.  There in the distance the demon, gigantic, grey, and always coming closer.  The drinking began as a way to let him sleep.

          Ishil just stopped breathing one night.  The ardents were kind.  They cleaned him.  They spoke about how he was going to fight in the Tranquiline halls.  Kezim hoped he could rest first. After that the drinking got worse.  By the time Sekir started asking him to look out for valuable cargo being brought in, Kezim spent most days sleeping under the piers a bottle in his hand.  

          He was laying under the pier when he saw her arrive.  Kholin, Jasnah Kholin.  Almighty she was beautiful.  The king himself seemed awed by her.  "Those earing,alone could buy a ship."  Sekir muttured, clapping Kezim on the back.  "Can you meet me for drinks at the tavern tonight. There's someone I'd like you to meet.  A captain, a proper soldier, he spoke of work ..."  

 

          

Yeah, as Frustration indicated you kind of forgot the paragraph of how "innocent" Kezim killed innocent people just walking home at least three times. I say at least because those three were confirmed. Going on the strawman you presented, I could easily say there were countless and Kezim the innocent is actually a serial killer who takes great pleasure in the deaths, and thankfully his reign of terror was finally brought to an end. Things can be very easily painted many ways. But the fact of the matter is we know three prior murders took place in that location, that the individuals surrounded with the intent to entrap, and they struck first. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Pathfinder

[CryoZenith]

This thread is... deeply confusing to me. And it's not confusing *just* because I'm a utilitarian, it's confusing either way.

First off, I'm not sure you guys (the people saying what she did was wrong) understand how provocation works. Provocation works on the reasonable individual standard: if an average reasonable person would lose their cool from your actions, then your actions constitute provocation. If they wouldn't, then they don't. *even if you expected to provoke*. And walking on a public alley can't be argued to provoke the average reasonable person.

Now, think about what would happen in a world in which it didn't work that way. It would basically amount to criminal gangs having privileged ownership over public property, at least until challenged by the authorities. Any thug could pick a random street or intersection, shout out loud that they are willing to kill anyone who enters that public street or intersection, and you would *actively lose your right to self defense if you enter it*. Is that really the world we'd like to live in? No.

And secondly, I genuinely don't understand this "she could've handled it nonlethally" take. Here's what would happen if she captured them instead of killed them: They would've been executed. Because in Kharbranth their crimes are punishable by death. Plus, pretty sure execution by regular Kharbranthian means is slower and more painful than being soulcast into smoke.

[Letryx13]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:18 PM, Tglassy said:

Anyone can justify anything.  Hitler justified his concentration camps.  By putting the blame on 'undesirable peoples', he was able to take a nation who had just lost a world war, and got (potentially unjustly) footed with the bill for the entire thing, and nearly conquered the world with them.  If he had succeeded in conquering the world, the history books would say his use of the Concentration Camps to unify his people was 'for the greater good', in that it helped unify a people into becoming dominant.  

Jack the Ripper killed prostitutes.  Supposedly, in his mind, he was doing the world a favor by getting rid of the cancer that needs to be cut out of society.

Where do you draw the line?  If Jasnah was justified in what she did, then where is the line?  The argument is that he Law wasn't working, at least not in that area, so she took it into her own hands.  These were Rapists and Murderers.  They deserved their fate.  

Nale is killing innocent people.  Every person on the planet has committed some kind of crime.  He spends all his time hunting down whatever it is the people he wants to kill has done so he can legally kill them.  If someone does even the slightest thing that technically would warrant death, he kills them.  And he feels he is perfectly justified.  He is ridding the world of that which could destroy it.  Cutting out the cancer.  Just like Jack the Ripper.  Or Hitler.  

So Jasnah goes after known criminals.  Makes sure they are going to attack before killing them.  That's a very short step away from Nale.  Or Jack the Ripper.  

The reason we have Laws in the first place is to protect the Innocent.  In America at least, you have to be proven guilty.  The reason for that is to protect the Innocent people as much as possible from a false accusation.  You get a trial.  You get to present your evidence. If you're found guilty, you face your punishment, but it's fair.  Or it's supposed to be.  

The reason for this is simple:  If one person is able to simply kill someone they think is guilty, then you wind up with Nale, Hitler and Jack the Ripper.  People doing what they thought was for the good of humanity, killing those who are causing the world to be destroyed.  Cutting out the infection.  

To be entirely honest, Jasnah shouldn't have gone after the Thugs.  She should have gone after the Constables.  People don't just become Thugs.  They are often pushed into it.  But corrupt constables choose to be that way.  They are the reason the ally was a cesspit.  If they were taken care of, and new Constables who would uphold the law were put in place, then the area would become safe.  The problem isn't the Darkeyes pushed to robbing people.  It's in the corrupt Lighteyes who are facilitating it.  

But instead, Jasnah went after the men.  She killed a few thugs.  But others will take their place.  So she didn't really do anything but kill a few people.  She wasn't trying to fix the problem.  She wanted to vent her frustration on men who abuse women.  I think that's Jasnah's thing.  She hates men who abuse women, and that vents into men in general.  She talks a lot about wanting to help Terevangian's people, but I don't believe her.  I think she just wanted to kill these men.  And she knew they'd attack her if she flaunted her wealth.  She didn't bother learning who these men were.  She didn't bother seeing if any could be redeemed.  Shallan took an entire band of men who'd likely murdered just as many as these thugs and turned them into, if not respectable, at least more honorable men.  Jasnah just killed them.  Like tossing trash, feeling like she'd done the right thing.  Like these men were just the cancer that needed to be cut out of society.  

I've had similar thoughts about this.  About Jasnah venting her anger and the state of Karbranth overall.  

If apprehending the criminals does no good because the system is corrupt, them you need to do something to fix the system.  Otherwise it's like scooping sand off of a beach.

I still think Jasnah shouldn't have killed those men for moral reasons, and because she had viable alternatives. But I agree with what you say here. Treat the disease, not the symptoms. 

[CryoZenith]

5 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

If apprehending the criminals does no good because the system is corrupt, them you need to do something to fix the system.  Otherwise it's like scooping sand off of a beach.

So you'd be cool telling the innocent civilians in Kharbranth something like "hey guys, don't worry, we'll do police reform and cleanup the streets in the following ~12 months or so. In the meantime avoid that particular alley if you wanna stay alive" ?

[Letryx13]

3 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

So you'd be cool telling the innocent civilians in Kharbranth something like "hey guys, don't worry, we'll do police reform and cleanup the streets in the following ~12 months or so. In the meantime avoid that particular alley if you wanna stay alive" ?

No, I'm saying the best way to fix a situation like this to to route out the corruption of Karbranth and make the policing force actually protect people like they're supposed to. Shardbearers can't hold ground.  Who could protect the population of the entire city better? Jashnah or thousands of police officers?

[CryoZenith]

1 minute ago, Letryx13 said:

No, I'm saying the best way to fix a situation like this to to route out the corruption of Karbranth and make the policing force actually protect people like they're supposed to. Shardbearers can't hold ground.  Who could protect the population of the entire city better? Jashnah or thousands of police officers?

Except Jasnah is an Alethi politician. She has no policymaking power in Kharbranth, or, at the very least, no short term power. She would need at least something like months to get change to even *begin*, time during which the "symptoms", which Jasnah can address directly, are given free reign to operate.

[Letryx13]

8 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

Except Jasnah is an Alethi politician. She has no policymaking power in Kharbranth, or, at the very least, no short term power. She would need at least something like months to get change to even *begin*, time during which the "symptoms", which Jasnah can address directly, are given free reign to operate.

I meant that focus and efforts should be applied to the source. I still maintain that she could have easily stopped them without killing them. Handing them to the police might have meant their executions, but those would be as a result of a legal system, and due process under the law.  Which is completely different than her just straight up judging them unfit to continue living.

And considering both her rank and political skill, I'd wager she could manage to start things moving in the right way within a week.  If the thugs she apprehended weren't held accountable, then she could use that as evidence of the city's corruption and use that as political pressure. Alternatively, she could use the fact that she was attacked as proof of the city's failings and used that.  She had options.

Also, I don't remember, but was what she did ever made public or reported to the authorities? 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Letryx13

[CryoZenith]

5 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

And considering both her rank and political skill, I'd wager she could manage to start things moving in the right way within a week.  If the thugs she apprehended weren't held accountable, then she could use that as evidence of the city's corruption and use that as political pressure. Alternatively, she could use the fact that she was attacked as proof of the city's failings and used that. 

Then this is an empirical disagreement, because I severely doubt this is plausible. If it is, then I agree with you, that's what she should've done. But I treat this as a counterfactual, not as an alternative she actually has, so it's a moot point.

You're basically advancing the hypothetical that Kharbranth has *so little in the way of sovereignty* that such a thing would work.

Edited January 26, 2022 by CryoZenith

[RedBlue]

6 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

Except Jasnah is an Alethi politician. She has no policymaking power in Kharbranth, or, at the very least, no short term power. She would need at least something like months to get change to even *begin*, time during which the "symptoms", which Jasnah can address directly, are given free reign to operate.

I agree with this, but I think you’re understating it. Jasnah is more of a scholar than a politician (at this point in the story) and has no policymaking power in her own country, let alone a foreign city. She also lives in a world where nobody knows what ‘police reform’ is. The law enforcement and legal systems are not anywhere near as sophisticated or reliable as the ones we’re familiar with, and that’s all Jasnah has ever known outside of books.

[CryoZenith]

1 minute ago, RedBlue said:

I agree with this, but I think you’re understating it. Jasnah is more of a scholar than a politician (at this point in the story) and has no policymaking power in her own country, let alone a foreign city. She also lives in a world where nobody knows what ‘police reform’ is. The law enforcement and legal systems are not anywhere near as sophisticated or reliable as the ones we’re familiar with, and that’s all Jasnah has ever known outside of books.

You're underestimating Jasnah. At least from what we've seen her talk about and mull over in RoW, we know that she's familiar with the way things are done in Azir, which is way closer to real life law than the rest of Roshar.

So yes, she doesn't have the power to change things in Kharbranth (or at least not in the short term) but she does have the knowledge of how it can look to be better.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I still maintain that she could have easily stopped them without killing them

How?

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How?

Soulcasting ropes around all of them before they had time to run away.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Soulcasting ropes around all of them before they had time to run away.

Rope would be tricky, especially in a binding enough shape to work.

Though soulcasting before they run would significantly increase the chance of sucess.

Soulcasting them up to their chests in sand from the get go might work even.

[RedBlue]

13 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

You're underestimating Jasnah. At least from what we've seen her talk about and mull over in RoW, we know that she's familiar with the way things are done in Azir, which is way closer to real life law than the rest of Roshar.

Jasnah has some good ideas, for sure. But I think there’s a very big gap between having an idea about how laws should work and actually designing and implementing a better system. 

What I’m getting at is that Jasnah did not have any realistic options other than going the vigilante route or ignoring the situation. Personally, I think what she did was justified in the circumstances. 

[CryoZenith]

6 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

What I’m getting at is that Jasnah did not have any realistic options other than going the vigilante route or ignoring the situation. Personally, I think what she did was justified in the circumstances. 

I wouldn't even go so far as to call what she did vigilantism, because while she technically intentionally put herself in a dangerous situation, a public alley is not supposed to be a dangerous situation.

[SzethTheHonorblade]

Jasnah is a bad person.

You cannot separate a choice and its outcomes from your intent. your intent is what makes you make the choice, therefore Jasnah, who casually swept away lives because she wanted them gone, made an awful decision. She hides behind the law that states that self-defense is okay. Do not mistake me self-defense is fine and okay, but what she did was no better than an assassination.

[Letryx13]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

How?

As I've said before, soulcasting a pit out from underneath them. She specifically mentions doing this at the battle of Theylen Field.