Infinate Energy, Perpetual Motion, and why Raysium is more important than you think.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Right. That's what I said. It is PMM if you consider the Spirits as part of the system or you don't limit it to closed systems, since it required something to turn it off, not wearing down on it's own.

If you don't have closed system anything goes. PMM is with reference to closed system.

And spirits are part of the system, they are literally forming parts of FM at the point Yumi gets to it. No spirits, no machine. So spirits are inevitably part of the system.

And just because it was turned off, does not mean it would not eventually wear down on its own. Since spirits seemingly wear down, and we now that Cognitive entities need to feed on Investiture to remain active, there would probably come a time where there is no more free Investiture for the machine to draw on. Sure it might be trillions of years, but that is inconsequential.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't believe that's the only explanation. Remember that Mater and Energy can be converted to investiture, the heat/light/etc. created by the spirits could convert back into the investiture of said spirit. Keyword could. I personally don't have a solid opinion.

Even if it could, there would be losses because the process won't be perfect since 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does hold in Cosmere per WoBs.
And so this cannot be PMM.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

As your later WoB edit confirms, I thought it was more likely "perfect" in the same way "feurochemistry" is 1:1. As in negligibly not.

And if it is negligibly not perfect, it cannot be PMM nor lead to one.
Plus the WoB directly confirms that light is fueled by decay of Investiture trapped inside gem, so it has a finite source of energy and will eventually terminate.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

This argument will go nowhere if you don't respond to the analogies given the analogies. Sure, the analogy is impossible, but so are all models we use.

If the analogy is based on a flawed premise I don't see a reason to respond to it.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I specifically referenced the probability of gems not being truly perfect.

And the WoB confirms that they are not, and are working not via being 'plugged' into SR but by decay of Investiture.
So they can only give of so much light before running out. Hence no PMM.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

That is partially correct. There is a difference between having infinity and proving that the limit as time approaches infinity the machine is concurrent to the machine at t=0. If you have infinity as part of an equation, something's wrong, but infinity in limits is OK.

I meant infinity in physical quantity.
Infinity as a mathematical entity is perfectly fine, and indeed can be useful as intermediary in physical calculations as well.

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Brandon Says he wants Thermodynamics to hold, but has said it is difficult to make them work. For example, to have a spirit split to make energy, it must be in a lower energy state. However, it reforms naturally, meaning the natural state must be in a lower energy state. Alternatively, it reforms enough to gather energy, but then the argument would be if the ambient energy is required or if all investiture and energy was converted to matter but one hijo, would it reform after being split into hion.

Not exactly, he told us all three laws of thermodynamics does hold, period.  You 'just' have to account for Investiture https://wob.coppermind.net/events/397/#e13115 .
The difficulty is in figuring out how exactly fudge things with Investiture to keep cool stuff, but not to have major unintended side-effects (like PMM would be).
(Coincidentally this also means that Investiture cannot be actually returning into SR in usable form, as it would be breaking 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. It might go back, but because of increase in entropy, free energy will be inevitably lower than before. But since SR lacks time dimension, there are bigger issues there )

I don't think hijo's have to be split to make energy, they just have to form always paired tools. That does not mean they are in lower energy state.

And reforming can be done simply by absorbing ambient Investiture field (similar to how Aether constructs require them to maintain coherence once split from Aether), similar to how plants use sunlight to power their growth/regrowth. And since they are just Investiture, they don't need to absorb anything than Investiture to repair themselves.

Edited October 17, 2023 by therunner

[IlstrawberrySeed]

You're misunderstanding some of what I'm trying to say.

On 10/17/2023 at 0:50 PM, therunner said:

If you don't have closed system anything goes. PMM is with reference to closed system.

And spirits are part of the system, they are literally forming parts of FM at the point Yumi gets to it. No spirits, no machine. So spirits are inevitably part of the system.

And just because it was turned off, does not mean it would not eventually wear down on its own. Since spirits seemingly wear down, and we now that Cognitive entities need to feed on Investiture to remain active, there would probably come a time where there is no more free Investiture for the machine to draw on. Sure it might be trillions of years, but that is inconsequential.

I have never heard of that necessity for natural cognitive entities, where did you here that?

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Even if it could, there would be losses because the process won't be perfect since 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does hold in Cosmere per WoBs.
And so this cannot be PMM.

Except nothing is truly a closed system. It's whole point is to release energy and bring it back, meaning that for it to be closed, you need to include the whole planet. But worldhoppers go there, so you have to include all the systems worldhoppers go to, and all the forces, etc, until you end up with the whole cosmere. You can't draw a line somewhere and say "it works." There is always something interacting with it, and what you need to show to make it a cosmere PMM is that given XY & Z, the limit as time approaches infinity of the situation is concurrent with the present.

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And if it is negligibly not perfect, it cannot be PMM nor lead to one.
Plus the WoB directly confirms that light is fueled by decay of Investiture trapped inside gem, so it has a finite source of energy and will eventually terminate.

That's what I was saying. In-world, they would think it's PMM, but I suspected that it wasn't because of the Feruchemistry thing.

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If the analogy is based on a flawed premise I don't see a reason to respond to it.

Because the ideal of a PMM is also a flawed premise, and you can't go after someone for not responding to your evidence without also following them down their reasoning.

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And the WoB confirms that they are not, and are working not via being 'plugged' into SR but by decay of Investiture.
So they can only give of so much light before running out. Hence no PMM.

I meant infinity in physical quantity.
Infinity as a mathematical entity is perfectly fine, and indeed can be useful as intermediary in physical calculations as well.

Not exactly, he told us all three laws of thermodynamics does hold, period.  You 'just' have to account for Investiture https://wob.coppermind.net/events/397/#e13115 .
The difficulty is in figuring out how exactly fudge things with Investiture to keep cool stuff, but not to have major unintended side-effects (like PMM would be).
(Coincidentally this also means that Investiture cannot be actually returning into SR in usable form, as it would be breaking 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. It might go back, but because of increase in entropy, free energy will be inevitably lower than before. But since SR lacks time dimension, there are bigger issues there )

He has also said in a WoB that it's hard, if it's even possible.  For one, time doesn't exist in the SR, so all investiture in the CR and PR is simultaneously in the SR, but "allocated" such that it cannot be pulled out multiple times.

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I don't think hijo's have to be split to make energy, they just have to form always paired tools. That does not mean they are in lower energy state.

And reforming can be done simply by absorbing ambient Investiture field (similar to how Aether constructs require them to maintain coherence once split from Aether), similar to how plants use sunlight to power their growth/regrowth. And since they are just Investiture, they don't need to absorb anything than Investiture to repair themselves.

I don't understand this take, would you explain further?

Edited October 20, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed
accidently submitted

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I have never heard of that necessity for natural cognitive entities, where did you here that?

SA, spren seem to feed of Hightstorms, and use Stormlight for healing.

3 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Except nothing is truly a closed system. It's whole point is to release energy and bring it back, meaning that for it to be closed, you need to include the whole planet. But worldhoppers go there, so you have to include all the systems worldhoppers go to, and all the forces, etc, until you end up with the whole cosmere. You can't draw a line somewhere and say "it works."

Saying that nothing is truly closed system is pointless argument.
 

You can always effectively isolate system, or you can enlarge your system until nothing is outside of it. Then you have closed system and you can apply thermodynamical argument.

So Cosmere as a whole, since laws of thermodynamics hold, cannot be PMM. And hence any subsystem of it cannot be PMM.

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There is always something interacting with it, and what you need to show to make it a cosmere PMM is that given XY & Z, the limit as time approaches infinity of the situation is concurrent with the present.

And I am saying that FM was not that.

3 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Because the ideal of a PMM is also a flawed premise, and you can't go after someone for not responding to your evidence without also following them down their reasoning.

What?

PMM is not 'flawed premise', it is a theoretical concept shown to be impossible due to laws of thermodynamics.

3 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

He has also said in a WoB that it's hard, if it's even possible.

It is hard to come up with explanation, but laws of thermodynamics hold, that is his statement.

3 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

 For one, time doesn't exist in the SR, so all investiture in the CR and PR is simultaneously in the SR, but "allocated" such that it cannot be pulled out multiple times.

That is not true, Pper WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129) space and time are "compounded into one".
SR is primarily spaceless, and in a sense it cannot be timeless because future is not set in Cosmere only probabilistic (or at least it appears as such).

Example of this is the fact that Lerasium can rewrite spiritweb from certain time onwards. Another would be the fact that hemalurgy rips pieces of spiritweb off.
Spiritweb also somewhat decays after death (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3910), which is purely SR process, so something like time moves in SR.

So my previous statement is wrong, and 2nd law of thermodynamics could plausibly hold even within SR, and usable amount of Investiture could be slowly decreasing.

So time is a thing in SR (but not the same as in PR and CR), space is not a thing at all.

3 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't understand this take, would you explain further?

I mean that hijo splitting does not provide energy.
It is just transformation into physical form, like what spren on Roshar do with e.g. Shardblades.

And even if it was lower energy state, they can reform via absorbing/consuming energy from their environment. E.g. if there is Investiture field which apparently exist and can sustain Aether constructs.

Edited October 20, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

23 hours ago, therunner said:

SA, spren seem to feed of Hightstorms, and use Stormlight for healing.

Highstorms don't give Stormlight in the CR.

 

23 hours ago, therunner said:

Saying that nothing is truly closed system is pointless argument.

When your dismissal of several proposed systems is that they aren't closed it very much is a valid argument.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:50 PM, therunner said:

SA, spren seem to feed of Hightstorms, and use Stormlight for healing.

Ah, good point.

Quote

Saying that nothing is truly closed system is pointless argument.

Not really, when your number one argument seems to be it's not a closed system.

Quote

You can always effectively isolate system, or you can enlarge your system until nothing is outside of it. Then you have closed system and you can apply thermodynamical argument.

So Cosmere as a whole, since laws of thermodynamics hold, cannot be PMM. And hence any subsystem of it cannot be PMM.

And I am saying that FM was not that.

What?

PMM is not 'flawed premise', it is a theoretical concept shown to be impossible due to laws of thermodynamics.

A useful PMM is made to secrete energy into another system, something which necessitates it not being a closed system, and not being isolated. Say you isolate worlhopeprs, and the shroud reflects 100% of energy from space (including UTol), and you had borders in the CR, and you set aside a specific amount of investiture from the SR (to account for births, etc.) The spirits would reform forever due to energy->investiture conversion being the inverse of the investiture->energy conversion, which is what is outputting the usable energy. Basically, it turns ambient, unusable, energy into useful, suedo-electric, invested energy, at no recurring cost.

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s

????

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That is not true, Pper WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129) space and time are "compounded into one".
SR is primarily spaceless, and in a sense it cannot be timeless because future is not set in Cosmere only probabilistic (or at least it appears as such).

Ok.

Quote

Example of this is the fact that Lerasium can rewrite spiritweb from certain time onwards. Another would be the fact that hemalurgy rips pieces of spiritweb off.
Spiritweb also somewhat decays after death (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3910), which is purely SR process, so something like time moves in SR.

So my previous statement is wrong, and 2nd law of thermodynamics could plausibly hold even within SR, and usable amount of Investiture could be slowly decreasing.

So time is a thing in SR (but not the same as in PR and CR), space is not a thing at all.

I mean that hijo splitting does not provide energy.
It is just transformation into physical form, like what spren on Roshar do with e.g. Shardblades.

And even if it was lower energy state, they can reform via absorbing/consuming energy from their environment. E.g. if there is Investiture field which apparently exist and can sustain Aether constructs.

Ok, I understand your take on spirits splitting/not now. It seems reasonable, and the differences don't seem to apply to the argument.

[Frustration]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:06 AM, therunner said:

Read the new WoB, they don't.
Spheres don't glow because of SR, but because Investiture in them decays.

So again, they don't function with 100% efficiency, nor do they give out more energy than goes in, so they are not PMM in either sense.

I've been thinking about this for a while and it does not work with what we have seen.

If decay was the reason the light was created more flawed gemstones would be the brightest, and when a gemstone was shattered it would release a massive burst of light as all of the stormlight inside decayed at once.

Neither of which happens.

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

I've been thinking about this for a while and it does not work with what we have seen.

If decay was the reason the light was created more flawed gemstones would be the brightest, and when a gemstone was shattered it would release a massive burst of light as all of the stormlight inside decayed at once.

Neither of which happens.

You misunderstand the WoB.

The Stormlight leaking out is not the same thing as Stormlight decaying.

Stormlight in a gem both leaks (due to flaws in crystal structure) and per the WoB also decays (which produces light).
They are two different and independant processes.

So if you break gem, Stormlight escapes/leaks out but won't suddenly magically decay faster, so you would not get a burst of light.
Same way, quality of gem has no effect on Stormlight decaying, as the decay is property of Stormlight not of the gem.

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

You misunderstand the WoB.

The Stormlight leaking out is not the same thing as Stormlight decaying.

Stormlight in a gem both leaks (due to flaws in crystal structure) and per the WoB also decays (which produces light).
They are two different and independant processes.

So if you break gem, Stormlight escapes/leaks out but won't suddenly magically decay faster, so you would not get a burst of light.
Same way, quality of gem has no effect on Stormlight decaying, as the decay is property of Stormlight not of the gem.

If the gem has no bearing on the rate of decay why are cut gems brighter than uncut gems?

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

If the gem has no bearing on the rate of decay why are cut gems brighter than uncut gems?

The light is less scattered so they seem brighter/sharper?

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

The light is less scattered so they seem brighter/sharper?

That would result in greater clarity, not increased luminosity.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That would result in greater clarity, not increased luminosity.

We don't know that they have greater luminosity, only that they appear brighter.
Gems are typically cut to remove flaws, and those flaws can scatter light which can cause it to diffuse and appear less bright than if it was more focused and clear.

Additionally, I only found references to larger stones glowing brighter, not better cut stone glowing brighter.

Ultimately this is pointless discussion. The WoB is clear, Stormlight decays and that is why it glows.
And the decay is not the same thing as leaking.

Edited October 27, 2023 by therunner