Infinate Energy, Perpetual Motion, and why Raysium is more important than you think.

[NameIess]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The smaller gem is connected to a bridge with far more mass than the big one.

Yes, but when you are using gravity, you hook up the larger gemstone to something with enough mass to make the mass of whatever you are pulling irrelevant.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yes, but when you are using gravity, you hook up the larger gemstone to something with enough mass to make the mass of whatever you are pulling irrelevant.

Ok lets do it this way

So, If conjoined gems behave like a single object, yet when one spren is moved to a smaller gem, that gem moves farther rather than reducing the amount of energy needed to move the gem as a whole.

So there are only two ways this can work, either force is multiplied, changing the speed, or the speed alone changes.

 

Now lets assume you are right that speed alone is changed, how?

Conjoined gems behave like a single object, so they have one mass. So if force is the same, and mass is the same speed must remain constant as well.

Therefore without force multiplication the different speeds of the gems are impossible.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Now lets assume you are right that speed alone is changed, how?

Conjoined gems behave like a single object, so they have one mass. So if force is the same, and mass is the same speed must remain constant as well.

Therefore without force multiplication the different speeds of the gems are impossible.

But the mass is different. The objects assume that their other half has the same mass as they do. They don't transfer only the force required to move the other gemstone the same amount as they do, they transfer enough force that the other gemstone would move the same distance if it was the same size.

Aside from that, what do you assume happens when you move the smaller gemstone? The larger gemstone would move more slowly, right? With force multiplication, why would that occur? Is there force division? is force conserved? if force is conserved, then why would is it conserved one way, but not the other?

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But the mass is different. The objects assume that their other half has the same mass as they do. They don't transfer only the force required to move the other gemstone the same amount as they do, they transfer enough force that the other gemstone would move the same distance if it was the same size.

If it acts like one object why is there a transfer of force?

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Aside from that, what do you assume happens when you move the smaller gemstone? The larger gemstone would move more slowly, right? With force multiplication, why would that occur? Is there force division? is force conserved? if force is conserved, then why would is it conserved one way, but not the other?

Force division.

If I push on the smaller gem with X newtons the larger one receives X/5 newtons

Edited November 24, 2021 by Frustration

[NameIess]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If it acts like one object why are there two masses?

Because magic is weird, and transferring spren across gemstones breaks things?

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Force division.

If I push on the smaller gem with X newtons the larger one receives X/5 newtons

Okay. Do you realize the implications of force multiplication? If you have two gemstones with a mass ratio of 1-5, then moving the larger gemstone will move the smaller one 25 times as far, because 5 times the force is pushed into an object 5 times smaller. However, the size differential is actually bigger than that. Assuming gemstones are spherical, a gemstone with a radius of 1 centimeter has a volume of 0.0005235. . . meters^3. a gemstone such as an extremely large gemheart, with a radius of 20 centimeters, would have a volume of 0.01885. . . meters^3. That is 36 times as large, meaning that moving the larger gemstone one meter would move the smaller one 1,296 meters, almost an entire mile. Do you realize how broken that would be? And before you say that it would only move 36 times as fast, the smaller gemstone has 36 times the force on it, and 1/36 times the mass, meaning that the  speed will be the speed has to be 1,296 times as fast.

Beyond the physics of it, there is a more important reason that I believe force is conserved. Raboniel mentioned force multiplication, and Navani said that force would likely be conserved. Here's the quote:

Quote

"Force multiplication?" Raboniel asked. "Move a large gemstone a short distance, and cause the small gemstone to go a very long one?" "Energy will be conserved, if our understanding of fabrial laws is correct," Navani said. "Greater light will be required, and moving that gemstone will be more difficult in equivalency to the work done by the smaller gemstones." (RoW, page 950, chapter 84.)

first of all, Navani says that energy (read force) will be conserved, and that the gemstone will be more difficult to move in proportion to the work done by smaller gemstones. thus, more force is not generated out of thin air, it must come from whatever is pushing the larger gemstone.

Second, Navani says that it will take more light. That means that even if force was multiplied, the required energy would be converted from the investiture in the gemstones, not come out of thin air. That means no perpetual motion machine, even if force multiplication was a thing, your machine would just be a car powered by investiture.

That said, it occurs to me I really should have looked at that quote earlier, rather than trying to explain the math without explaining why the math is the math.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Nameless

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because magic is weird, and transferring spren across gemstones breaks things?

Sooo, um, I made an edit.

Quote

If it acts like one object why is there a transfer of force?

 

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Okay. Do you realize the implications of force multiplication? If you have two gemstones with a mass ratio of 1-5, then moving the larger gemstone will move the smaller one 25 times as far, because 5 times the force is pushed into an object 5 times smaller.

Because it's not 5 times force into an object 1/5 the size, it's five times the force unto the same object.

Once conjoined the gems are for all intents and purposes the same object, any force I apply to one is applyed to the other, not because it's transfered, but because it's the same object. Think Quantum entanglemnet.

The difference is that when I apply force to one gem, the force that the other gem feels is multiplied by their size difference.

It's not apply two newtons to the table, and one will get moved to the other table, it's apply two newtons, and the smaller "half" will act like it got five, while the larger "half" acts like it got one newton. No matter how far appart the two "halves" happen to be.

 

Does that make any sense at all or am I speaking Physics textbook?

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Beyond the physics of it, there is a more important reason that I believe force is conserved. Raboniel mentioned force multiplication, and Navani said that force would likely be conserved. Here's the quote:

Navani thinks it will be conserved

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

first of all, Navani says that energy (read force) will be conserved, and that the gemstone will be more difficult to move in proportion to the work done by smaller gemstones. thus, more force is not generated out of thin air, it must come from whatever is pushing the larger gemstone.

I've thought about this quite a lot and it doesn't make sense.

So moving the bigger gem is harder than moving the smaller one, and the smaller one goes further, and we must conserve force.

The only way I can think to explain how that works is that somehow there is a resistance mechagnism that will store the force applied to the bigger gem, and then release it into the smaller one. The question then becomes, how? and on what scale does it start?

Is it any movemnet at all, meaning that you have to give the larger gem several times the energy needed to move it before it actually moves?

And why does that deserve a reveal more dramatic than that of isolating planes of motion, and require more difficult to obtain materials?

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Second, Navani says that it will take more light. That means that even if force was multiplied, the required energy would be converted from the investiture in the gemstones, not come out of thin air. That means no perpetual motion machine, even if force multiplication was a thing, your machine would just be a car powered by investiture.

Put it in the highstorm.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Okay, I am an idiot. I'm confusing force for energy. Technically, either of us could be right about force multiplying. It is energy that is conserved. Energy is force*distance, or Newtons*meters. After looking at complicated math, I am uncertain of the math behind fabrials, but I am certain that force does not come from nowhere.

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Because it's not 5 times force into an object 1/5 the size, it's five times the force unto the same object.

Once conjoined the gems are for all intents and purposes the same object, any force I apply to one is applyed to the other, not because it's transfered, but because it's the same object. Think Quantum entanglemnet.

The difference is that when I apply force to one gem, the force that the other gem feels is multiplied by their size difference.

It's not apply two newtons to the table, and one will get moved to the other table, it's apply two newtons, and the smaller "half" will act like it got five, while the larger "half" acts like it got one newton. No matter how far appart the two "halves" happen to be.

 

Does that make any sense at all or am I speaking Physics textbook?

But the force is transferred. If I push a door open, I'm not touching 90% of the door, but the entire door still moves. That is because the force of my push is transferred to the rest of the door.

Also, the objects are not the same. Their mass is different, and if you put five times the energy into an object one/fifth the size, you will get 25 times the acceleration or distance that you would in the other object.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Navani thinks it will be conserved

Considering her knowledge of fabrial mechanics and physics, I think it is safe to say that she is correct.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I've thought about this quite a lot and it doesn't make sense.

So moving the bigger gem is harder than moving the smaller one, and the smaller one goes further, and we must conserve force.

The only way I can think to explain how that works is that somehow there is a resistance mechagnism that will store the force applied to the bigger gem, and then release it into the smaller one. The question then becomes, how? and on what scale does it start?

Is it any movemnet at all, meaning that you have to give the larger gem several times the energy needed to move it before it actually moves?

And why does that deserve a reveal more dramatic than that of isolating planes of motion, and require more difficult to obtain materials?

Why would there need to be a storage system? the same amount of energy applied to a smaller object will move a smaller object more than a larger object. There is a "resistance mechanism" in that you have to push harder on the bigger gemstone to move the smaller one, but it is like gears on a bike. Your pedals have a larger gear compared to the wheels, so although you have to pedal harder than with a smaller gear, you get more speed.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Put it in the highstorm.

That's like saying "cover a car in solar panels that can power it". Not perpetual motion, just constant refueling.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Okay, I am an idiot. I'm confusing force for energy. Technically, either of us could be right about force multiplying. It is energy that is conserved. Energy is force*distance, or Newtons*meters. After looking at complicated math, I am uncertain of the math behind fabrials, but I am certain that force does not come from nowhere.

The force would come from the same place heat does from heating Fabrials, either directly from the stormlight provided, or drawn from the SR.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

But the force is transferred. If I push a door open, I'm not touching 90% of the door, but the entire door still moves. That is because the force of my push is transferred to the rest of the door.

Yes, but it's not like the place where you put your hand is like, ok, now half the force I have and give it to the rest of the door, it's transfered along the chemical bonds, or forced into other things the same way your hand does.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Also, the objects are not the same. Their mass is different, and if you put five times the energy into an object one/fifth the size, you will get 25 times the acceleration or distance that you would in the other object.

I think your holding too firmly to classical mechanics, spren and spanreeds in particular are based off of quantum mechanics, and for quantum entanglement to work we have to assume the entangled particles are part of one wavefunction.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Considering her knowledge of fabrial mechanics and physics, I think it is safe to say that she is correct.

Einstien himself was wrong on certain points. Esspecially when it came to quantum mechanics.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Why would there need to be a storage system? the same amount of energy applied to a smaller object will move a smaller object more than a larger object. There is a "resistance mechanism" in that you have to push harder on the bigger gemstone to move the smaller one, but it is like gears on a bike. Your pedals have a larger gear compared to the wheels, so although you have to pedal harder than with a smaller gear, you get more speed.

So where is the additional inertia coming from?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

That's like saying "cover a car in solar panels that can power it". Not perpetual motion, just constant refueling.

Stormlight comes in, is used and returns to the highstorm to be used again.

That's like making a car, that takes the exauhst and the heat and turns it back into gas.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but it's not like the place where you put your hand is like, ok, now half the force I have and give it to the rest of the door, it's transfered along the chemical bonds, or forced into other things the same way your hand does.

Yeah. Which is what normal gemstones do, except through spiritual bonds instead. different sized gemstones are weird.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think your holding too firmly to classical mechanics, spren and spanreeds in particular are based off of quantum mechanics, and for quantum entanglement to work we have to assume the entangled particles are part of one wavefunction.

Okay, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying that the both gemstones are the same object on a quantum level, and thus have equal mass? if so, which mass is it? do they have the smaller mass or the larger mass? Does it change based on which gemstone has force applied to it? what happens when both gemstones have force applied to them at the same time?

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Einstien himself was wrong on certain points. Esspecially when it came to quantum mechanics.

Yeah, but this is a book. why would Brandon write Navani stating something that was completely wrong, when he could write her giving an accurate explanation instead?

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So where is the additional inertia coming from?

I don't understand what you mean. What additional inertia? Do you mean momentum?

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Stormlight comes in, is used and returns to the highstorm to be used again.

That's like making a car, that takes the exauhst and the heat and turns it back into gas.

Actually, I don't think that the energy is turned back into investiture. It's just like antimatter, except instead of converting matter to energy you convert investiture into energy. The energy might eventually be converted back into investiture somehow, but some of it will probably be lost to entropy first. Maybe. Or maybe investiture can take unusable energy and convert it back into investiture. I don't know how it works.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Yeah. Which is what normal gemstones do, except through spiritual bonds instead. different sized gemstones are weird.

Why would they be different?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Okay, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying that the both gemstones are the same object on a quantum level, and thus have equal mass? if so, which mass is it? do they have the smaller mass or the larger mass? Does it change based on which gemstone has force applied to it? what happens when both gemstones have force applied to them at the same time?

Total mass, Small gem 5 grams Big gem 10, moving either one will feel like 15.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, but this is a book. why would Brandon write Navani stating something that was completely wrong, when he could write her giving an accurate explanation instead?

MB

Spoiler

Why did they pair Atium with electrum when even the ars arcanum paired it with gold?

 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I don't understand what you mean. What additional inertia? Do you mean momentum?

So you have a pair of gems, moving one moves the other, they have the inertia of the combined gems, now one of the spren is moved to a gem 5 times smaller, under your model moving the larger gem just became five times harder, where did that inertia come from?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Actually, I don't think that the energy is turned back into investiture. It's just like antimatter, except instead of converting matter to energy you convert investiture into energy. The energy might eventually be converted back into investiture somehow, but some of it will probably be lost to entropy first. Maybe. Or maybe investiture can take unusable energy and convert it back into investiture. I don't know how it works.

Invesiture is recycled

Spoiler

Skyler Cecil

Is there an Investiture cycle on Roshar? Cycling through the crem rain and flora and fauna back into the storm, or something like that. Like the water cycle. If Investiture is finite, is it recycled back into the Cosmere when Investiture like Breath or Stormlight is expended? Otherwise, wouldn't Investiture run out?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is such a cycle. It is renewed and changed time and time again. It gets in and out of the Spiritual Realm, often with the birth of new individuals.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

[NameIess]

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would they be different?

I dunno. I know that they move differently, so there must be something strange about the energy transfer. My explanation seems more reasonable than the spren being connected to its other half via the spiritual realm somehow causes investiture to convert into kinetic energy when the gems are different sizes.

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Total mass, Small gem 5 grams Big gem 10, moving either one will feel like 15.

Navani said that moving the larger gemstone would take more force in proportion to the extra work done by the smaller gemstone, so it will feel like moving more than 15. your system might sustain mass, but what about gravity? a 1/5 gemstone would always have 6x gravity on it. 5x from the other gemstone, and 1x from itself. So the mass might feel the same, but it would be dramatically harder to lift the smaller gemstone. You would also have 6x friction if you tried to slide the gems across a table.

Also, your mass wouldn't line up either. moving the larger gemstone would feel like moving just the larger gemstone, because all the force applied to the smaller gemstone would come from investiture.

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

MB

  Reveal hidden contents

Why did they pair Atium with electrum when even the ars arcanum paired it with gold?

 

Not relevant here. (MB)

Spoiler

Those people weren't scientists. Thematically speaking, it wouldn't make sense for Navani, whose "thing" since the very first book has been fabrials, whose character development throughout RoW is about realizing that she is a really good scholar, to make a mistake like that and Raboniel, who is thematically an out-of date scientist who has trouble changing her hypothesis to align with the facts, would be correct. In mistborn, not only were none of the characters really scholars, they didn't even know all of the normal allomantic metals, let alone understand the complex god metal mechanics.

 

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So you have a pair of gems, moving one moves the other, they have the inertia of the combined gems, now one of the spren is moved to a gem 5 times smaller, under your model moving the larger gem just became five times harder, where did that inertia come from?

Actually, the inertia does not change. In fact, inertia is why my system works. larger objects require more force to move, and smaller objects require less force to move. Thus, when the larger gemstone is moved, it gives the same amount of energy to the smaller gemstone that it would have given to the larger gemstone. The smaller gemstone has less inertia, causing it to move more.

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Invesiture is recycled

  Reveal hidden contents

I am aware that investiture is recycled. I should have said that I don't know that all of the energy is converted back into investiture. Some of it might be lost to entropy and become unusable. Or Brandon could throw entropy out the window and say that all energy, matter, and investiture can cycles through phases, with none of it being lost.

The biggest issue I have with force multiplication (and the easiest to explain) is the what and why of it. What effect causes a split spren to begin converting investiture into kinetic energy and why does this effect only occur in gemstones with a significant size differential? Why do they need this effect, when they already have lashings that do basically the same thing, only without the need for complex fabrial setups? In fact, Brandon has said that fabrials can emulate all ten surges:

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Fabrials replicate Soulcasting abilities. Is it possible for fabrials to replicate all such Surgebinding abilities?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, good question! Fabrials can replicate all of the Surgebinding abilities.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

So force-multiplying fabrials are going to be outdated as soon as Navani or other scholars figure out how to make a fabrial that emulates gravitation. gravitation fabrials will have the same level of stormligh efficiency, and won't require difficult engineering to ensure the gemstones don't shatter or break out of their lattices, as you could simply lash an entire ship at once. Not a big deal at all. why the big reveal? On the other hand, if they do conserve energy, then the mechanics are consistent, at least in that the spren don't start having a completely different function, they will be much more stormlight efficient than gravitation fabrials and will also be able to reach similarly high speeds, meaning they won't become immediately obsolete upon the discovery of surge fabrials. That is a big deal.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Nameless

[Frustration]

42 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I dunno. I know that they move differently, so there must be something strange about the energy transfer. My explanation seems more reasonable than the spren being connected to its other half via the spiritual realm somehow causes investiture to convert into kinetic energy when the gems are different sizes.

We're going to have to disagree on that one

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Navani said that moving the larger gemstone would take more force in proportion to the extra work done by the smaller gemstone, so it will feel like moving more than 15. your system might sustain mass, but what about gravity? a 1/5 gemstone would always have 6x gravity on it. 5x from the other gemstone, and 1x from itself. So the mass might feel the same, but it would be dramatically harder to lift the smaller gemstone. You would also have 6x friction if you tried to slide the gems across a table.

If it's one object it will only be affected by gravity once.

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Also, your mass wouldn't line up either. moving the larger gemstone would feel like moving just the larger gemstone, because all the force applied to the smaller gemstone would come from investiture.

No, you feel like you are moving both spanreeds, you'd feel both gems.

If your refering to the multiplication, you would still feel it, you move both, the smaller one simply acts like it got more.

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Not relevant here. (MB)

  Reveal hidden contents

Those people weren't scientists. Thematically speaking, it wouldn't make sense for Navani, whose "thing" since the very first book has been fabrials, whose character development throughout RoW is about realizing that she is a really good scholar, to make a mistake like that and Raboniel, who is thematically an out-of date scientist who has trouble changing her hypothesis to align with the facts, would be correct. In mistborn, not only were none of the characters really scholars, they didn't even know all of the normal allomantic metals, let alone understand the complex god metal mechanics.

 

I disagree, even the greatest minds can get things wrong, especially when something new happens.

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Actually, the inertia does not change. In fact, inertia is why my system works. larger objects require more force to move, and smaller objects require less force to move. Thus, when the larger gemstone is moved, it gives the same amount of energy to the smaller gemstone that it would have given to the larger gemstone. The smaller gemstone has less inertia, causing it to move more.

this again assumes that they are two objects.

And why is the smaller gem easier to move if it gives half its energy to the larger gem?

The larger one requires more, so thereby you would need to put 10 times the amount of effort in to move a gem five times the size. Making the smaller one harder to move.

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

The biggest issue I have with force multiplication (and the easiest to explain) is the what and why of it. What effect causes a split spren to begin converting investiture into kinetic energy and why does this effect only occur in gemstones with a significant size differential? Why do they need this effect, when they already have lashings that do basically the same thing, only without the need for complex fabrial setups? In fact, Brandon has said that fabrials can emulate all ten surges:

So force-multiplying fabrials are going to be outdated as soon as Navani or other scholars figure out how to make a fabrial that emulates gravitation. gravitation fabrials will have the same level of stormligh efficiency, and won't require difficult engineering to ensure the gemstones don't shatter or break out of their lattices, as you could simply lash an entire ship at once. Not a big deal at all. why the big reveal? On the other hand, if they do conserve energy, then the mechanics are consistent, at least in that the spren don't start having a completely different function, they will be much more stormlight efficient than gravitation fabrials and will also be able to reach similarly high speeds, meaning they won't become immediately obsolete upon the discovery of surge fabrials. That is a big deal.

I could say the same for you system, only force multiplication is more useful in the mean time.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If it's one object it will only be affected by gravity once.

That's an arbitrary exception. The larger gemstone has the force of gravity on it, so it multiplies that force by 5 and sends it to the smaller gemstone. The smaller gemstone gets affected by gravity on it's own. Actually the smaller gem would have less force due to gravity because of its lesser mass, but still a bit over 5 times as heavy as much force as the large gem.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I disagree, even the greatest minds can get things wrong, especially when something new happens.

Of course they can. All I'm saying is that thematically, it would make no sense for Navani to be wrong on that point.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

this again assumes that they are two objects.

No, it really doesn't. It assumes that they are two parts of one object that assume they are exactly half of the whole object. they are one object, but they think they are part of a larger (or smaller) object that they actually are.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And why is the smaller gem easier to move if it gives half its energy to the larger gem?

The larger one requires more, so thereby you would need to put 10 times the amount of effort in to move a gem five times the size. Making the smaller one harder to move.

Yes, the larger gemstone is harder to move, or rather it takes more energy to move. The smaller gemstone gives the larger one half the energy it has, meaning the larger one moves less than the smaller one. No need for energy to be turned into investiture or anything like that.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I could say the same for you system, only force multiplication is more useful in the mean time.

Not really. Force multiplication may give perpetual motion, but the stormlight use would be vastly less efficient. Why do you think they didn't lash the fourth bridge? because it would've fallen out of the sky before getting a tenth of the way to wherever they wanted to go. Think of the difference in stormlight use between a full lashing (binding something to a wall) and a basic lashing (changing gravity). There is a massive difference in stormlight efficiency. Now think about the difference between basic lashings and Kaladin's glove device. That thing never ran out of voidlight in a fight.

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That's an arbitrary exception. The larger gemstone has the force of gravity on it, so it multiplies that force by 5 and sends it to the smaller gemstone. The smaller gemstone gets affected by gravity on it's own. Actually the smaller gem would have less force due to gravity because of its lesser mass, but still a bit over 5 times as heavy as much force as the large gem.

hm, that is a good point, I will have to consider.

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Of course they can. All I'm saying is that thematically, it would make no sense for Navani to be wrong on that point.

It makes no sense for such a lackluster improvement to fabrials to require such a buildup, and require something as rare as raysium.

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

it really doesn't. It assumes that they are two parts of one object that assume they are exactly half of the whole object. they are one object, but they think they are part of a larger (or smaller) object that they actually are.

Why would it send half of it's force, rather than force simply moving across?

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Not really. Force multiplication may give perpetual motion, but the stormlight use would be vastly less efficient. Why do you think they didn't lash the fourth bridge? because it would've fallen out of the sky before getting a tenth of the way to wherever they wanted to go. Think of the difference in stormlight use between a full lashing (binding something to a wall) and a basic lashing (changing gravity). There is a massive difference in stormlight efficiency. Now think about the difference between basic lashings and Kaladin's glove device. That thing never ran out of voidlight in a fight.

Might I point out that

1. Voidlight is on it's own far more efficiant than Stormlight
2. The comparitive snails pace that such machines would move at?

Edited November 25, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[NameIess]

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

It makes no sense for such a lackluster improvement to fabrials to require such a buildup, and require something as rare as raysium.

We don't know that it needs raysium. You just have to recapture the half-spren before it fades back to the cognitive, which I think you could probably do using a tuning fork with Honor's tune to do attract the spren to the gemstone. 

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Why would it send half of it's force, rather than force simply moving across?

Because it thinks that the larger gemstone is the same size as it is.

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Might I point out that

1. Voidlight is on it's own far more efficiant than Stormlight
2. The comparitive snails pace that such machines would move at?

1. We don't actually know that voidlight is more efficient, only that is does not escape from gemstones or fused as quickly or at all.

2. Under your system, the fourth bridge would rip itself to pieces, all of the gems shattering instantly, if you tried to use gravity to power it. The smaller gemstones still move at a multiplicative speed to the larger gemstones in my system.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Nameless

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that it needs raysium. You just have to recapture the half-spren before it fades back to the cognitive, which I think you could probably do using a tuning fork with Honor's tune to do attract the spren to the gemstone. 

Given that they fade almost instantly I would doubt it.

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because it thinks that the larger gemstone is the same size as it is.

On a mechanics standpoint, if it's one object it should disperse, not take half and transfer it over.

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Under your system, the fourth bridge would rip itself to pieces, all of the gems shattering instantly, if you tried to use gravity to control it. The smaller gemstones still move at a multiplicative speed to the larger gemstones in my system.

1. No it wouldn't, build a machine to generate force, connect a third gem and syphon off exsess, if structural integrety becomes an issue use strengthening fabrials.
2. While it would be an improvement ,that deserves more the treatment isolating planes of motion got, shoved into a side story and mentioned in passing, not as a major plot point.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Given that they fade almost instantly I would doubt it.

If you vibrate a gem to Honor's tone, then the spren could be attracted to it enough to be captured before fading.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

On a mechanics standpoint, if it's one object it should disperse, not take half and transfer it over.

Well, tough. On a mechanics standpoint, a gearbox shouldn't become an engine when you change the size of the gears, but you seem to think it does.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

• No it wouldn't, build a machine to generate force, connect a third gem and syphon off exsess, if structural integrety becomes an issue use strengthening fabrials.
• While it would be an improvement that deserves more the treatment isolating planes of motion did, shoved into a side story and mentioned in passing, not as a major plot point.

1. Okay. still way too much force to be needed.

2. Uh, did you miss the part where I said that if you linked a gemheart with a smaller gemstone you could get stuff like 36 times the acceleration of gravity? Didn't Kaladin spend like the entire book complaining that the glove had a maximum speed of one lashing? well, now you have the capability to have a 30+ lashing maximum acceleration that uses vastly less stormlight.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, tough. On a mechanics standpoint, a gearbox shouldn't become an engine when you change the size of the gears, but you seem to think it does.

Bad comparison, it's not a gear box, or even a gear, it's a single gem. It goes from being a non-automatic to automatic by using the power of a shard of Adonalsium to cause a multiplication effect to occur.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

1. Okay. still way too much force to be needed.

Let's say it is, use of a cage to moderate expression strength will fix the issue.

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

2. Uh, did you miss the part where I said that if you linked a gemheart with a smaller gemstone you could get stuff like 36 times the acceleration of gravity? Didn't Kaladin spend like the entire book complaining that the glove had a maximum speed of one lashing? well, now you have the capability to have a 30+ lashing maximum acceleration that uses vastly less stormlight.

And then you have to bring them back to the top and start all over again, you can't build commercial airlines that way, you can't build a spacefaring civilization that way.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Bad comparison, it's not a gear box, or even a gear, it's a single gem. It goes from being a non-automatic to automatic by using the power of a shard of Adonalsium to cause a multiplication effect to occur.

But WHY?!!?? why in the tenth name of the almighty does it storming change?!?!? you have provided no explanation for what causes this change, you have just said that it should be this way because it is more useful. This is a hard magic system, things don't happen for no reason. Please, just give me one in-world reason that could possibly cause this to occur.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Let's say it is, use of a cage to moderate expression strength will fix the issue.

Yeah, but the fact that you need a moderation cage is a big problem.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

And then you have to bring them back to the top and start all over again, you can't build commercial airlines that way, you can't build a spacefaring civilization that way.

Navani mentioned using the highstorm to recharge them. You could also use gravitation fabrials in a central location such as Urithiru, easily rechargeable by a bondsmith.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But WHY?!!?? why in the tenth name of the almighty does it storming change?!?!? you have provided no explanation for what causes this change, you have just said that it should be this way because it is more useful. This is a hard magic system, things don't happen for no reason. Please, just give me one in-world reason that could possibly cause this to occur.

Perception, why do spanreeds work at different latitudes despite ambiently moving at different speeds? It seems stationary so it acts like it is, a gem five times as large is moved so it seems like the smaller one should have five times the force, so it does.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, but the fact that you need a moderation cage is a big problem.

For unlimited powered flight and the realitivly easy way to have infinate energy, I think it's worth it.

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Navani mentioned using the highstorm to recharge them. You could also use gravitation fabrials in a central location such as Urithiru, easily rechargeable by a bondsmith.

That really creates issues when you need to move a lot of people to a lot of different desitations.

How will Roshar build an airline industry if there is one spot on the continent that has the height necesary to make international flights possible?

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Perception, why do spanreeds work at different latitudes despite ambiently moving at different speeds? It seems stationary so it acts like it is, a gem five times as large is moved so it seems like the smaller one should have five times the force, so it does.

Nobody ever perceived that as being the case, so no.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

That really creates issues when you need to move a lot of people to a lot of different desitations.

How will Roshar build an airline industry if there is one spot on the continent that has the height necesary to make international flights possible?

Well, giant towers will be easy enough to build in the industrial age. And it's possible you could use other methods to store energy, like springs and stuff.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

For unlimited powered flight and the realitivly easy way to have infinate energy, I think it's worth it.

They already have that in Radiants, and will have a superior version in gravitation fabrials.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Nobody ever perceived that as being the case, so no.

Considering it's the first thing Raboniel did I have to disagree.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, giant towers will be easy enough to build in the industrial age. And it's possible you could use other methods to store energy, like springs and stuff.

Towers 1/36 the size of Roshar? You might be able to get nationwide flights, maybe, but it will still put them far behind other worlds.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They already have that in Radiants, and will have a superior version in gravitation fabrials.

But those will always be limited to the elite, never becoming widespread enough for everyone to use.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Towers 1/36 the size of Roshar? You might be able to get nationwide flights, maybe, but it will still put them far behind other worlds.

They can use multiple weights, and can use weights to help recharge other weights.

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Considering it's the first thing Raboniel did I have to disagree.

She perceived it as doing so after seeing it do something weird. Not before.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

They can use multiple weights, and can use weights to help recharge other weights.

Even so, your far behind even earth that way.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

She perceived it as doing so after seeing it do something weird. Not before.

Perception is a spiritual attribute, and time doesn't exist in the SR

[NameIess]

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Even so, your far behind even earth that way.

That's assuming they don't figure out some magic method around this, like a bondsmith with a windrunner permanently increasing gravity in an area.

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Perception is a spiritual attribute, and time doesn't exist in the SR

This contradicts what we've seen. Spren change based on changing perception. If perception in the future mattered the same amount as perception in the present and past, then perception wouldn't matter, because over infinite time there would be infinite different perceptions.