Infinate Energy, Perpetual Motion, and why Raysium is more important than you think.

[Frustration]

Frustration's Apparatus MK 2!

Spoiler

Gem A  contains a Mandras(the spren that make Greatshells lighter), and fabrial clocks adjust the way wires attatch to it modulating expression strnegth so that it forces the pulley to constantly move, alternating which side is at the top.

Gem B is a simple conjoined gem, that is conjoined when it's side is falling, and disconjoined when it's side is rising.

This is probably the cheapest way to make infinate energy using fabrails.

[Rune he/him]

I haven't really read all the posts but even if you made a perpetual machine it would be useless as it would not be able to produce more energy then what was put in because of conservation of energy.  I am not completely knowledge about the Cosmere's physics so conservation of energy might not exist so please tell me.  Side A would need enough energy to push side B down so if you were trying to connect A to something else it would be unable to overcome the mass of that object without additional energy. Also, what would be powering the fabrial clocks on gem A?  I am not in any way knowledge about this so if I'm wrong correct me.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Rune said:

I haven't really read all the posts but even if you made a perpetual machine it would be useless as it would not be able to produce more energy then what was put in because of conservation of energy.  I am not completely knowledge about the Cosmere's physics so conservation of energy might not exist so please tell me.  Side A would need enough energy to push side B down so if you were trying to connect A to something else it would be unable to overcome the mass of that object without additional energy. Also, what would be powering the fabrial clocks on gem A?  I am not in any way knowledge about this so if I'm wrong correct me.

Conservation of energy does not apply to investiture.

Let me put it this way: each side of Frustration's Apparatus MK 2 weighs 100 Kg, at base level.

Gem A is able to change the weight of it's side of the pulley, enabling it to become heavier or lighter as needed.

When Gem B is at the top it is conjoined with it's pair, and gem A makes it's side lighter, causing gem B's side to fall, transfering that distance to it's conjoined gem. When gem B reaches the bottom it is disconjoined, gem A makes it's side heavier and gem B's side begins to rise.

Fabrial clocks are powered by stormlight.

[Rune he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

Conservation of energy does not apply to investiture.

Let me put it this way: each side of Frustration's Apparatus MK 2 weighs 100 Kg, at base level.

Gem A is able to change the weight of it's side of the pulley, enabling it to become heavier or lighter as needed.

When Gem B is at the top it is conjoined with it's pair, and gem A makes it's side lighter, causing gem B's side to fall, transfering that distance to it's conjoined gem. When gem B reaches the bottom it is disconjoined, gem A makes it's side heavier and gem B's side begins to rise.

Fabrial clocks are powered by stormlight.

well... dang, I think that that would work

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

Okay, answer me this? If the fabrial clock is using stormlight, how do we know that it's not using more investiture than than the mechanism is putting out in equivalent sums of energy. For that matter, wouldn't the mandras fabrial also use investiture, this increasing the wasted energy?

I am of the opinion that an infinite energy generator is impossible in reality. At abest we can create a perpetual motion machine which conserves all of it's energy but outputs nothing. 

I believe that all of the designs presented here by @Frustration, while impressive, will not work as he intended. Instead, I believe he has successfully created at least two stormlight engines. There is no need for the steam engine on Roshar, provided there is a way to replicate these engines quickly and feeding them with investiture is veritably feasible.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Ta'veren Kaladin
You don't want me double posting do you? Also, this is my 300th post.

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Okay, answer me this? If the fabrial clock is using stormlight, how do we know that it's not using more investiture than than the mechanism is putting out in equivalent sums of energy. For that matter, wouldn't the mandras fabrial also use investiture, this increasing the wasted energy?

If you build it in the right spot you'll get stormlight from each passing highstorm.

40 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

I am of the opinion that an infinite energy generator is impossible in reality. At abest we can create a perpetual motion machine which conserves all of it's energy but outputs nothing.

You can make them using Feruchemy and Awakening already.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

Here's my issue, investiture is just another form of energy just like matter. Thus, if a contraption takes in investiture, it is getting extra input, if that input is not less than the output, it is not an infinite energy machine. As for

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can make them using Feruchemy and Awakening already.

If you link these I can give my input, but I can only see feruchemy circumnavigating my criteria in one certain way, and I'm not sure that it works that way even.

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Here's my issue, investiture is just another form of energy just like matter. Thus, if a contraption takes in investiture, it is getting extra input, if that input is not less than the output, it is not an infinite energy machine.

Expended Stormlight returns to the SR and the HIghstorm draws it out again, so any stomrlight used gets put back into the machine automatically.

Spoiler

Skyler Cecil

Is there an Investiture cycle on Roshar? Cycling through the crem rain and flora and fauna back into the storm, or something like that. Like the water cycle. If Investiture is finite, is it recycled back into the Cosmere when Investiture like Breath or Stormlight is expended? Otherwise, wouldn't Investiture run out?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is such a cycle. It is renewed and changed time and time again. It gets in and out of the Spiritual Realm, often with the birth of new individuals.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

34 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

If you link these I can give my input, but I can only see feruchemy circumnavigating my criteria in one certain way, and I'm not sure that it works that way even.

Sure

Feruchemy

Spoiler

Put an iron ferring on a piston and have them tap or store weight to make it move.

Awakening

Spoiler

Awaken two pieces of rope with the command "Once you are fully extended constrict, and pull back until the knots on either end of you touch" or something along those lines. Then tie each of them to either end of a piston so that when it is fully-extended, or fully retracted one set on knots are touching and the other rope is fully extended.

 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

With the stormlight cycle, by that logic, s hydroelectric turbine is an infinite energy source. As for feruchemy, that was exactly what I was thinking, with regards to awakening, I would assume that the breath would tire eventually and the contraption stop.

[DiePie]

I'm no physicist and I also skimmed like half the thread since it seemed like nobody was saying anything new: I feel like I either missed the memo, or the idea is built on a false premise.

Isn't what Navani is doing just an application of mechanical advantage to conjoined Fabrials? Energy is Force x Displacement (distance traveled), and so if conservation of energy is maintained, an increase in the distance traveled (or the velocity of an object over the period of time) would just mean that the force applied is decreased.

Conservation of energy WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Have you ever justified the law of conservation of mass in the regeneration of shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, law of conservation of mass and the regeneration of shardplate. So conservation of energy and mass in the cosmere, you have to understand we are working on the Three Realms, Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical and there is a lot of dense energy on the Spiritual plane. Most of the magics are working and creating a conduit to the Spiritual plane, pulling something through or sticking it back in. And so everything's conserved, but we have a dump of energy up there that we are kind of using as a dump of energy that we are pulling things back and forth with.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

 

[Frustration]

On 6/27/2022 at 10:03 AM, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

With the stormlight cycle, by that logic, s hydroelectric turbine is an infinite energy source.

Only in this case stormlight will always be renewed, it isn't depended on the sun. Even if Roshar were destroyed Honor's investiture would still leak out into the physical realm.

On 6/27/2022 at 10:03 AM, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

with regards to awakening, I would assume that the breath would tire eventually and the contraption stop.

What gives you that Idea?

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Only in this case stormlight will always be renewed, it isn't depended on the sun. Even if Roshar were destroyed Honor's investiture would still leak out into the physical realm.

It's still taking in an outside source of energy. If we allow this, then we're just saying that the entirety of the universe is one perpetual motion machine because it can't lose anything, but it's beyond the scope of the machine you've created.

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What gives you that Idea?

I just interpreted that breaths were a finite amount of investiture and thus it would eventually run out in that specific concentration, just like any other investiture, and if not, then this becomes another investiture engine because it's drawing from the spiritual realm, and taking in extra energy.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

It's still taking in an outside source of energy. If we allow this, then we're just saying that the entirety of the universe is one perpetual motion machine because it can't lose anything, but it's beyond the scope of the machine you've created.

I just interpreted that breaths were a finite amount of investiture and thus it would eventually run out in that specific concentration, just like any other investiture, and if not, then this becomes another investiture engine because it's drawing from the spiritual realm, and taking in extra energy.

If the machine works forever, and will provide energy with no interaction once completed what do you call that other than perpetual motion?

5 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

I just interpreted that breaths were a finite amount of investiture and thus it would eventually run out in that specific concentration, just like any other investiture, and if not, then this becomes another investiture engine because it's drawing from the spiritual realm, and taking in extra energy.

They last.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If the machine works forever, and will provide energy with no interaction once completed what do you call that other than perpetual motion?

With the case of the stormlight engines it's still taking in energy which is interaction, if we were to say these designs are it's like saying a light that doesn't burn out is a perpetual motion machine, because you don't touch it. If you were referring to my statement that the universe is a perpetual motion machine, then yes, however, considering the universe is the composite of all mass and energy in existence, and wasn't created (as far as we know) by anyone, it can hardly be counted for the sake of this discussion.

 

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 

They last.

Then how can the be consumed?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Then how can the be consumed?

Awakened objects will reach a point and then not lose breath. Now Nightblood an returned can still consume them, but standard awakening they are going to stick around.

2 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

With the case of the stormlight engines it's still taking in energy which is interaction, if we were to say these designs are it's like saying a light that doesn't burn out is a perpetual motion machine, because you don't touch it. If you were referring to my statement that the universe is a perpetual motion machine, then yes, however, considering the universe is the composite of all mass and energy in existence, and wasn't created (as far as we know) by anyone, it can hardly be counted for the sake of this discussion.

So why can we not count the highstorm and SR as part of the system?

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

I don't think this debate is contributing to the discussion any more, and while I disagree with you, you're reasoning is hardly without merit, so I'll just say my last little bit, and then hopefully be done.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Awakened objects will reach a point and then not lose breath. Now Nightblood an returned can still consume them, but standard awakening they are going to stick around.

So, how then do things power after that? Does the breath channel more investiture into the awakened object? And also, why then do returned need a breath a week? I can't imagine an answer to this that does not result in a draw of power from an external source, thus violating the rules of a perpetual motion machine.

 

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So why can we not count the highstorm and SR as part of the system?

I argue that we can't count them because they are too external. Another probably terrible analogy, it's like us, we eat food, taking energy in, then eventually all the matter ends up back outside us, either as energy exerted that was converted from food, or as waste matter removed from our bodies by various processes. Is this a perpetual motion machine? I say no, because even though the energy isn't lost, it's returned from the actual machine (the human) to the environment. Like how the stormlight returns from the apparatus to the SR. It just seems like it is part of the environment rather than the machine.

[CosmereMaths]

I’m pretty sure the different sized gemstones work more like levers where the smaller gemstone travels 5 times farther than the larger distance any time a force is applied 

[Frustration]

A huge thanks to the mods for moving this topic.

 

Given how in Yumi we saw the first perpetual motion machine on screen I would like to know if that changes anyone's perception on a Roaharan version.

[Firesong she/her]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A huge thanks to the mods for moving this topic.

 

Given how in Yumi we saw the first perpetual motion machine on screen I would like to know if that changes anyone's perception on a Roaharan version.

You are objectively wrong there, there was no perpetual motion machine present in Yumi. There was a machine with a large energy source, but to say it is a PMM is to flat out ignore the statements of the text. I feel you are, by looking at this thread as a whole, very obsessed with finding a PMM to such a degree that you are kind-of just creating headcanons. Like saying that Conservation of Energy doesn't apply to Investiture, which is blatantly untrue. 

What is true is that Investiture can be pulled into a system to give it power, but that just creates a larger system. 

Quote

In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant; it is said to be conserved over time.^[1] Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another. For instance, chemical energy is converted to kinetic energy when a stick of dynamite explodes. If one adds up all forms of energy that were released in the explosion, such as the kinetic energy and potential energy of the pieces, as well as heat and sound, one will get the exact decrease of chemical energy in the combustion of the dynamite.

Everything stated here still holds with Investiture. You are simply making a mistake of considering a machine connected to an external power source to be an isolated system, which it is not. It is powered by the Splinters of Virtuosity, without those Splinters, it shut down, which supports the idea that it is not a PMM as it requires draining that energy in order to function. Think of it like this, is a house powered by a nuclear power plant a PMM for being able to run for a very long amount of time as it uses up radioactive elements at the plant? It wouldn't be (and not just due to not being perpetual), due to the fact that the energy is taken from an outside source, that being the plant. 

A PPM is a machine that:

Quote

once set in motion, would continue in motion forever, with no additional energy required to maintain it.

This explicitly does not apply to the Father Machine, which has an energy source that it relies upon, and without that energy source, it would cease to function. A true PPM would not rely upon an energy source like that, they are like batteries, but made out of the fragments of a dead god. So, I hold that the Father Machine is not a PPM. It is just a machine with a stupidly massive power source. 

In fact, I hold that a true PPM cannot exist in the cosmere, due to a few principles. 

Quote

First Law of Thermodynamics: A simple formulation is: "The total energy in a system remains constant, although it may be converted from one form to another." Another common phrasing is that "energy can neither be created nor destroyed."

Second Law of Thermodynamics: One simple statement of the law is that heat always moves from hotter objects to colder objects (or "downhill"), unless energy in some form is supplied to reverse the direction of heat flow. Another definition is: "Not all heat energy can be converted into work in a cyclic process."^[1][2][3]

(both of these laws are the major reason why PMMs are impossible in our reality)

We see that both are followed in the cosmere. We see that Matter, Energy, and Investiture all exist in this tripartite system, none can be created or destroyed, but can be converted between one another. This is held to quite perfectly, all cases where we see matter and energy be created, they are created from Investiture. 

The second, we see that Investiture tends to flow from places of high concentration/energy, to ones of lower concentration. This is why the Dor flows out so forcefully, this is how some systems of sealing Spren in Fabrials works, this is why basically everyone leaks Investiture, etc. 

The thing is that complexities arise when one adds in a connection to the Spiritual Realm. But this still does not entirely break them, as that is just an expansion of the system. The Spiritual Realm, and Investiture, becomes another power source. A machine linked to this external force, which acts due to connection to it (or to massive splinters of Investiture like the Hijo) is not a PMM, even if it could last forever, as it is being supplied energy. 

Also...

Looking into a work with the sole purpose of finding evidence to a preconceived theory, or trying to find evidence of the possibility of an idea, tends to bias people into seeing things that are not truly there. I feel this is what you are going through at the moment. You are even, as I pointed to before, making up disproven headcanons in order to try and justify it "Breaths do not drain" (they have been shown to be used up and drain many, many times before. For example, the Tablet that Fort uses, it is a Nalthian Awakened Device, yet it does not have infinite power, it must be periodically charged in the sun (likely taking power from AisDa), if Breath provided literally infinite energy, then it wouldn't need to charge like that. We also see that ones Breaths actually grow fainter as one grows older, and most Awakened objects eventually run out of energy and stop functioning. Another another thing, we see that people with Breaths leak out the Breaths slowly over time, much like Radiants leak Stormlight. If what you claimed was true, they would be constantly leaking out an infinite amount of Investiture, as it does eventually run out, so if it was infinite, it would be leaking out an infinite amount.), "Investiture doesn't follow conservation of energy" (again, it does, and does so pretty consistently, you just are mistaken on what the conservation of energy applies to).

As an addition, I am not really a fan of the idea of trying to find PMM in the cosmere. With how hard Brandon has been trying to avoid such things, trying to find explanations as to why they would not be able to arise. It feels in very bad faith to try so hard to find how he failed in his endeavors, and feels mean spirited and almost malicious. Trying so hard to undermine his efforts just puts a really bad taste in my mouth.

I also don't even see why you want to find that out anyway, it seems like finding out such a system would just suck a lot of enjoyment out of the work. Makes everyone in-world seem stupid and makes a lot of problems become like idiot-plots of sorts, where the issue only exists due to their stupidity in not finding out this system for infinite energy. It would just make a lot of things feel so rubbish. 

PS: Sorry if this comes across as angry, I am just very passionate about cosmere, and this topic is basically trying to poke holes in one of my favorite parts of the verse, the ways in which Investiture reflects the Laws of Thermodynamics. It is something I love very dearly about the verse. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

You are objectively wrong there, there was no perpetual motion machine present in Yumi. There was a machine with a large energy source, but to say it is a PMM is to flat out ignore the statements of the text.

Which statements in the text prove that the Father machine was not a PMM?

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Everything stated here still holds with Investiture. You are simply making a mistake of considering a machine connected to an external power source to be an isolated system, which it is not. It is powered by the Splinters of Virtuosity, without those Splinters, it shut down, which supports the idea that it is not a PMM as it requires draining that energy in order to function. Think of it like this, is a house powered by a nuclear power plant a PMM for being able to run for a very long amount of time as it uses up radioactive elements at the plant? It wouldn't be (and not just due to not being perpetual), due to the fact that the energy is taken from an outside source, that being the plant. 

The spirits are in many ways part of the machine. Going along with your reactor analogy, if we found a way to fuse Hydrogen into larger elements, and the fission those larger elements back into Hydrogen and gain energy from that reaction that would be a PMM. And we know that the Father machine acted like this because it captured all of the spirits, released them and then caught them again. They never wore out, and no new ones were ever made, this is confirmed by the way that the machine knew when one of the spirits escaped.

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

This explicitly does not apply to the Father Machine, which has an energy source that it relies upon, and without that energy source, it would cease to function. A true PPM would not rely upon an energy source like that, they are like batteries, but made out of the fragments of a dead god. So, I hold that the Father Machine is not a PPM. It is just a machine with a stupidly massive power source.

The machine itself supplies the power as its stacking rocks is what draws the spirits.

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

A machine linked to this external force, which acts due to connection to it (or to massive splinters of Investiture like the Hijo) is not a PMM, even if it could last forever, as it is being supplied energy.

You yourself admit that the machine would run forever, and since the spirits aren't used up, and are caught again.

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

(they have been shown to be used up and drain many, many times before.

Only in Returned.

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

For example, the Tablet that Fort uses, it is a Nalthian Awakened Device, yet it does not have infinite power, it must be periodically charged in the sun (likely taking power from AisDa), if Breath provided literally infinite energy, then it wouldn't need to charge like that.

Do you know that? Can you prove for certain that that isn't just one of the requirements that needs to happen for that particular awakened device to work? Lifeless do not need to charge in the sun, but if you want to awaken one using a single breath you have to use ichor alcohol. And you have to reapply the alcohol if it is lost, despite not being needed to power the lifeless. There are a lot of strange quirks to awakening that do that.

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

We also see that ones Breaths actually grow fainter as one grows older, and most Awakened objects eventually run out of energy and stop functioning. 

No we do not. The only awakened objects that we see stop functioning are Lifeless, and only when their bodies decay to uselessness.

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

Another another thing, we see that people with Breaths leak out the Breaths slowly over time, much like Radiants leak Stormlight. 

Source?

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

As an addition, I am not really a fan of the idea of trying to find PMM in the cosmere. With how hard Brandon has been trying to avoid such things, trying to find explanations as to why they would not be able to arise. It feels in very bad faith to try so hard to find how he failed in his endeavors, and feels mean spirited and almost malicious. Trying so hard to undermine his efforts just puts a really bad taste in my mouth.

I don't see any real effort on his part to avoid it. Just about every major magic system has some way to do it.

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

I also don't even see why you want to find that out anyway, it seems like finding out such a system would just suck a lot of enjoyment out of the work. Makes everyone in-world seem stupid and makes a lot of problems become like idiot-plots of sorts, where the issue only exists due to their stupidity in not finding out this system for infinite energy. It would just make a lot of things feel so rubbish.

See this is where we differ, I find great enjoyment from breaking things like this, it's why I min-max in TTRPG's I enjoy seeing things work together in ways that allow things that shouldn't be possible to work. I don't see it as trying to ruin what Brandon made, but rather as part of the experience. If the rules can be broken they should be, we don't learn anything new about them otherwise.

[+asmodeus]

I'm not gonna lie, if we're really looking for broken perpetual motion machines, our ye olde Terris Wheels, with two Iron Ferrings just tapping and storing weight as they go around, work.

So does Awakening.

And if you really want some perpetual machine stuff on Roshar with fabrials alone, you can do that by hanging rails that go all the around Roshar, and then hanging moving sail-trains off it, that have gemstones. The setup then lets you constantly have a set of gems in the highstorms as they go all the way around Roshar, which you can then pull using your tuning fork method, in some capacity. If you put conjoined fabrials here, then you would constantly be generating force using the highstorms, that you can use for other things. So... yeah, while I do agree that this idea of moving a conjoined spren into a differently sized gem is big, I also don't think it's going to break physics too much just yet.

Cosmere physics is broken as is .

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Which statements in the text prove that the Father machine was not a PMM?

The spirits are in many ways part of the machine. Going along with your reactor analogy, if we found a way to fuse Hydrogen into larger elements, and the fission those larger elements back into Hydrogen and gain energy from that reaction that would be a PMM. And we know that the Father machine acted like this because it captured all of the spirits, released them and then caught them again. They never wore out, and no new ones were ever made, this is confirmed by the way that the machine knew when one of the spirits escaped.

The machine itself supplies the power as its stacking rocks is what draws the spirits.

You yourself admit that the machine would run forever, and since the spirits aren't used up, and are caught again.

Only in Returned.

Do you know that? Can you prove for certain that that isn't just one of the requirements that needs to happen for that particular awakened device to work? Lifeless do not need to charge in the sun, but if you want to awaken one using a single breath you have to use ichor alcohol. And you have to reapply the alcohol if it is lost, despite not being needed to power the lifeless. There are a lot of strange quirks to awakening that do that.

No we do not. The only awakened objects that we see stop functioning are Lifeless, and only when their bodies decay to uselessness.

Source?

I don't see any real effort on his part to avoid it. Just about every major magic system has some way to do it.

See this is where we differ, I find great enjoyment from breaking things like this, it's why I min-max in TTRPG's I enjoy seeing things work together in ways that allow things that shouldn't be possible to work. I don't see it as trying to ruin what Brandon made, but rather as part of the experience. If the rules can be broken they should be, we don't learn anything new about them otherwise.

... How did you read Warbreaker and not see the constant references to people with Breaths leaking Investiture? I am genuinely baffled, tbh. It really beats you over the head with it again, and again, and again. 

Quote

Prologue:

Vasher used the prison keys to unlock the cell door, then stepped inside. This man’s aura made colors grow brighter by sharp mea sure when they got close to him. Anyone would be able to notice an aura that strong, though it was much easier for someone who had reached the First Heightening... It wasn’t the strongest BioChromatic aura Vasher had ever seen—those belonged to the Returned, known as gods here in Hallandren. Still, the prisoner’s BioChroma was very impressive and much, much stronger than Warbreaker 1 9 Vasher’s own. The prisoner held a lot of Breaths. Hundreds upon hundreds of them.

Chapter 3:

Servants approached carrying brilliant red and gold robes. As they entered his aura, each servant—skin, hair, clothing, and garments—burst with exaggerated color. The saturated hues were far more resplendent than any dye or paint could produce. That was an effect of Lightsong’s innate BioChroma: he had enough Breath to fill thousands of people. He saw little value in it. He couldn’t use it to animate objects or corpses; he was a god, not an Awakener. He couldn’t give—or even loan—his deific Breath away.

And Lightsong would live for another week. His aura didn’t grow stronger from Breath upon which he fed; that was another difference between a Returned and an Awakener. The latter were sometimes regarded as inferior, man- made approximations of the Returned. Without a new Breath each week, Lightsong would die.

In the center of the room was a child. Why does it always have to be a child? Lightsong thought. (This is an implication on the way that the  Breaths of children have more Investiture than those of the elderly, still looking for the other parts where it is mentioned, hard to find things in books)

Chapter 12:

This is my child, Halan,” the woman said, holding out the baby. As it got close enough to Lightsong’s aura, the blanket burst with a sharp blue color two and half steps from pure. He could easily see that the child was suffering from a terrible sickness. It had lost so much weight that its skin was shriveled. The baby’s Breath was so weak that it flickered like a candle running out of wick. It would be dead before the day was out. Perhaps before the hour was out. (this one also talks about breaths getting weak)

Chapter 14:

The man descended to the ground. He muttered something Vivenna couldn’t hear, and his BioChromatic aura grew stronger as he recovered his Breath from the cloak. “We should be moving again soon,” the man said to his friends. “The crowd is thinning up ahead.”

Ars Arcanum: 

Note Three: The numbers given in the table above are only estimates, as very little is known about the upper Heightenings. Indeed, even for the lower levels, fewer or more Breaths may be required to achieve a given Heightening, depending on circumstances and the strength of the Breath.

Annotations:

Just a little note here. Returned live for eight days without a Breath, though the week is seven days long in this world. Why? Well, I figured that they'd need an extra day as leeway. On day seven, they start to grow weak and sluggish. If they don't consume a Breath, their body will consume their own on the eighth day of their life, and they'll die again.

In some parts of this world, Returned aren't worshipped, but instead seen as something akin to vampires. They draw in Breath to survive, and need a supply of people to feed off of. They tend to wear black, since it's the most powerful color for draining to Awaken things.

 

Why a child? It doesn't much matter, truthfully. An adult, or even someone elderly, could provide a Breath that would keep a god alive.

But the Breaths of those who are aged aren't as vigorous as those of those who are young. If Lightsong were given one of those to feed on, he'd survive for another week—but he wouldn't feel as vibrant or alive as he does after feeding on the child's Breath.

The people of Hallandren are faithful. Even if Lightsong himself doesn't believe, they do, and they want to provide the best for him. Hence they use children. Old enough to know what they are doing, yet young enough to give a powerful, vibrant Breath to their god.

(note, there were a lot more but it would be spam to include every reference to it, it talks about it all the time)

WoBs:

Weltall (paraphrased)

I asked if someone who had a lot of Breath would have it weaken collectively, in the same way that the single Breaths of children are more vibrant than others and move one slightly closer to a Heightening, then weaken as they grow older (and contribute slightly less towards a Heightening).

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that it wouldn't be noticeable once you accumulate enough Breath and, for example, Hoid wouldn't find himself suddenly losing perfect pitch as a function of time.

 

scottwo

Is the radiance of the Returned, or people with Breath, is it like Stormlight coming off of people? Or is it a different concept?

Brandon Sanderson

It's a similar concept with different magic systems.

 

This talks about how Breaths can go weak or be consumed, how they release an Invested aura that brings forth changes to the environment, etc.

Again, I feel you are flat out ignoring the text because you simply want to believe certain things. Like how you want to say that every person with Breath has literally infinite Investiture (they would have to if they do not lose any Investiture at all, given how they constantly let out an aura of Investiture), even though it has been displayed that they are finite Splinters, and that they are measurable and also leak out over time (thus giving people the aura of leaking Investiture that all people with Breaths have) This is a reflection of how most forms of Investiture leak out over time as human bodies are poor vessels for Investiture, this also matches the way that the aura is something that only humans have to worry about, while Returned don't, as their bodies are better vessels for it (though they can choose to display it, and they lose their Breaths through other ways)

I feel it would be weird to be like "humans aren't a good vessel for Investiture, neither are Nalthian humans as they are the ones who leak out an Invested aura. But also they actually don't and the Investiture they leak out is actually not Investiture leaking out," it all feels so messy if we assume that. 

On Fort's tablet:

Quote

I have to leave it out in the sun once a week, or it stops working, Fort wrote. And its magic won’t respond to anyone other than me. So
don’t think about stealing it.

I feel that you are ignoring Occam's Razor in assuming that this wasn't charging it, and was just an arbitrary Command given to it. I feel the more logical explanation for this is that it requires it in order to charge itself, and to assume it was just something random and arbitrary, especially when it lines up with how we see Awakening work in general, to be strange.  

Lifeless also do run out of Breath over time,

Quote

A Lifeless will remain animate and useful for several years as long as the body remains in good condition. This period of usefulness may be extended by injecting ichor-alcohol into the blood vessels of the Lifeless.^[2] Physical damage to a Lifeless may be repaired to an extent; lacerations may be sewn shut, damaged muscles replaced.^[13] Yet in time the accumulated modifications lessen its resemblance to a living thing, making it more difficult for Breath to keep it functioning as intended.^[14]

--- Denth nodded. “Right into the bone. It works all right. Not perfectly, but all right. No wound can ever be perfectly fixed on a Lifeless, though he will heal some. You just sew them up and pump them full of fresh ichor- alcohol. If you fix them enough times, the body will stop working right and Warbreaker 355 you’ll have to spend another Breath to keep them going. By then, it’s usually just best to buy another body.”

Talking about how Lifeless do use up their Breaths. It also is not "when they decay to uselessness", that is your own headcanon, it simply talks about damage making them have to be Awakened again. It is not as extreme as your interpretation posits. 

Again, Breaths do not contain infinite Investiture. Those animated by it slowly use it up. It is rather consistent about this. Even Nightblood reflects this in how it constantly tries to take in Investiture whenever it can, as that is what keeps it going. 

One factor I feel helps in not using as much of the Breaths, is that they absorb colour for fuel, this I feel is used as a form of energy that makes them not have to use up as much of a Breath as normal. 

So, it has been confirmed a lot that they actually are used up, they contain only finite Investiture. 

[drunkenbotanist]

Not wading into father machine discourse

 

I think that only the Terris wheel is actually a PPM in that example because you're able to get infinite motion out of gravitational potential energy...

For the roshar example, something that is solar powered isn't a PPM... Something that's hooked up to investiture like that shouldn't count either as it's just a stormlight engine? Which is already a big deal though?

 

To get a stormlight PPM as opposed to a stormlight engine you need to make a wheel or something from photon sails powered by stormlight in a perfect gemstone. Infinite photon momentum 

[Firesong she/her]

Also, I have to add, I do not think that the FM would have gone on forever. I simply said that if it did, it wouldn't be a PMM still, as it is still gaining power from an outside source. You say "it attracts the Hijo which it uses for power", and it does. But the thing is, that is calling in on an outside system for power, therefore it is neither closed nor isolated (and isolated systems are most relevant for PMMs)

Think of this, imagine a machine that is powered by a bunch of cranks. What the machine does is it sends out a signal that magically convinces people to go to it and turn the cranks. This would not be a PMM, despite attracting those that crank it for power, as it is receiving that power from an external force, not from itself. The increasing its own energy comes from it simply causing entities from outside the system to come to it and be absorbed and made into batteries. Therefore, it is not a closed system, ergo would still not be classified as a Perpetual Motion Machine. 

Again, I feel like a large part of this argument comes from you not entirely understanding what a Perpetual Motion Machine is. It is not simply a machine that can go on forever, but one that "Can do work infinitely without an external energy source", which is something that the Father Machine has, which disqualifies it from the title, even if it was actually able to go on forever, something I don't believe it would have been able to do anyway. The Father Machine is an Open System that allows the exchange of energy and matter. 

So, even looking at it from your perspective, wherein it can and will go on forever, I cannot in good faith call it a perpetual motion machine.  

 

Anyway, I am just getting myself worked up and upset, we aren't going to agree with this, so I feel like dropping it after your next response. Arguments over my passions (or more serious stuff I won't bring up here to keep it relatively light-hearted) always make me feel sick to the stomach. Also, sorry for my bluntness, I don't think you are stupid or anything, even if I am rather annoyed. I just sometimes say things I shouldn't, I am usually much better with that, so, sorry. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Firesong

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

 

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

... How did you read Warbreaker and not see the constant references to people with Breaths leaking Investiture? I am genuinely baffled, tbh. It really beats you over the head with it again, and again, and again.

That is not them leaking investiture, but rather a passive effect that they have. They never lose breath by that as can be proven by the fifth heightening.

At the Fifth heightening people become biologically immortal, and at that point holding more breath does not extend your lifetime. If they lost breath overtime holding more past that point would extend their lifetime which is not the case.

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

Like how you want to say that every person with Breath has literally infinite Investiture

 I have never once said that, a breath is a discrete unit of investiture.

Spoiler

Emerald101

I was wondering if there is a unit of Investiture, like maybe something Khriss uses.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but I haven't canonized it yet. Good question. I will eventually canonize it, because I think that people will want it, but I probably won't do so 'til [Mistborn] Era 3, because I want the scientific way of talking about the cosmere to mirror how developed the cultures are, but some of the scholars are beyond where everyone else is. It can be measured. There is a unit.

Emerald101

Like, maybe grams of solid Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

It will probably be an in-world unit of measurement. Right now, to talk about it online if you want, the unit is probably gonna be based around Breath, because a Breath is a distinct amount. Whereas in most of the settings, there's not a distinct amount. Like, how much Allomancy, things like that. How much can a gem hold. It really depends on how the gem is cut, and how long the gem has been out. So... the Breath is a really easy one, so it's become the unit. But there will probably be a fantasy term for it. I might just call it Breath. That's why I'm not canonized yet. But if you guys wanna talk about it in Breath terms, that's probably the easiest.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9685

 

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

I feel it would be weird to be like "humans aren't a good vessel for Investiture, neither are Nalthian humans as they are the ones who leak out an Invested aura. But also they actually don't and the Investiture they leak out is actually not Investiture leaking out," it all feels so messy if we assume that.

Breath is different than stormlight, it is attached to the soul.

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

I feel that you are ignoring Occam's Razor in assuming that this wasn't charging it, and was just an arbitrary Command given to it. I feel the more logical explanation for this is that it requires it in order to charge itself, and to assume it was just something random and arbitrary, especially when it lines up with how we see Awakening work in general, to be strange.

It does not line up with how we see Awakening work. Vashers ropes don't require charging, his shirt doesn't require charging, lifeless don't require charging, why is this one the only difference?

Wood needs sunlight to grow, the commands probably used this as a base to create the board using far fewer breaths than were otherwise needed, just like Lifeless with ichor alcohol.

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

 Lifeless also do run out of Breath over time,

Talking about how Lifeless do use up their Breaths. It also is not "when they decay to uselessness", that is your own headcanon, it simply talks about damage making them have to be Awakened again. It is not as extreme as your interpretation posits.

It is

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Three

Vivenna and the Mercenaries Wait in the Safe House after the Lifeless Attack on the Slumlords

Why does Jewels bother sewing up Clod? Why fix Lifeless at all? Denth's answer is a fairly good one, but it could use some more explanation.

You see, when one makes a Lifeless, the reason the Breath stays and won't come back is because the body of a recently deceased person is too "sticky" for Breaths. One Breath attaches to it, and because the body so clearly remembers being alive, it can use that Breath to power it. (Assuming you have the right Commands and can picture them correctly in your head when you make the Lifeless.)

However, the more the Lifeless is damaged, the less like the shape of a living person it is, and the more difficult it is for the Breath to keep that body going. Powering a body with only one Breath is hard—it requires the body to work mostly on its own. When you power a cloak or something like that, the Breaths need to provide a lot of energy, since there's no real muscles to use or skeletal structure to rely on.

So the more wounded a Lifeless becomes, the less well its Breath can keep it going. Eventually you'll need to stick a second Breath into it, then a third, all the way up until that Lifeless is nothing more than a bunch of bones you've Awakened. At that point, you might as well be using sticks or cloth.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e6975

 

The breath never runs out of power, more is simply needed to move the lifeless as it's body breaks down, be that from injury or natural process. Not once do you have an example of a lifeless ceasing to work because the breath simply ran out of energy.

9 hours ago, Firesong said:

Also, I have to add, I do not think that the FM would have gone on forever. I simply said that if it did, it wouldn't be a PMM still, as it is still gaining power from an outside source. You say "it attracts the Hijo which it uses for power", and it does. But the thing is, that is calling in on an outside system for power, therefore it is neither closed nor isolated (and isolated systems are most relevant for PMMs)

Think of this, imagine a machine that is powered by a bunch of cranks. What the machine does is it sends out a signal that magically convinces people to go to it and turn the cranks. This would not be a PMM, despite attracting those that crank it for power, as it is receiving that power from an external force, not from itself. The increasing its own energy comes from it simply causing entities from outside the system to come to it and be absorbed and made into batteries. Therefore, it is not a closed system, ergo would still not be classified as a Perpetual Motion Machine. 

Again, I feel like a large part of this argument comes from you not entirely understanding what a Perpetual Motion Machine is. It is not simply a machine that can go on forever, but one that "Can do work infinitely without an external energy source", which is something that the Father Machine has, which disqualifies it from the title, even if it was actually able to go on forever, something I don't believe it would have been able to do anyway. The Father Machine is an Open System that allows the exchange of energy and matter. 

So, even looking at it from your perspective, wherein it can and will go on forever, I cannot in good faith call it a perpetual motion machine.

If a machine takes in hydrogen, fuses the hydrogen into larger elements, and then fissions those larger elements back into Hydrogen, and then that hydrogen was immediately sent back to be fused, and that gave it enough power to not only continue running but also power an entire country, that would be a PMM.

What I think you are overlooking is that the spirits never left the system, they were all trapped by the machine, that's why they needed Yumi to get them out, they couldn't leave.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Frustration