Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[ScadrianTank]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar repeatedly sent people flying with swings from them, that force will kill.

Oh, I was thinking about Sharblades in hammer form, like Huio did in Dawnshard. My bad. Still, I'm pretty sure that wearing plate Dalinar could kill just as well with a regular hammer and a small delay, lol. 

[BenduLuke]

14 hours ago, therunner said:

In that case you are arguing that guns are deadly, not that Metalborn are. That would make gun only a temporary advantage (until Roshar has comparable weaponry), and one that is only useful when stocked with aluminum ammo.

Jasnah is an utter monster on battlefield, see RoW, and that is when she is holding back.

Also, most Metalborn simply are not as good a shot as Wax is, so on hand saying most Radiants are not as good as Kaladin, but on the other hand assuming all Metalborn are expert marksmen like Wax is disingenuous.

Plate would stop shrapnel easily, Scadrial does not have .50 cal machine guns nor recoil-less rifles. Also, aluminum is still too expansive to even make guns out of, so they will not be able to fill every weapon they have with aluminum shrapnel or ammo.

This ignores various forms of Singers, which use only lesser spren, which are far more numerous, and those could be very deadly (Stormform, Warform). Most of those Metalborn however are only Misting and Ferrings (and around 1/3 has powers that are not suited to combat, so are effectively regular human), Scadrial would have low hundreds of natural Twinborn at best.

Except for that WoB you are not taking into account, but I do, which tells us otherwise.

Hazekiller rounds are in no way comparable to high velocity armor piercing slugs, none of them have any such properties. The ones with ceramic tips are used against coinshots, as they cannot push on the ceramic. Those against pewterarms are simply larger and filled with more gunpowder, but not armor piercing in any way, shape or form. So yes, we do need to project much more development before they have anything approaching armor piercing rounds.

(Sidenote: The fact that anti-coinshot rounds use ceramic and not aluminum, and that aluminum is not in anti-Thug shots, also shows just how expansive aluminum is in Era 2).

Modern weapons can shoot up to ~1200 meters (9mm guns) or ~3000 meters (high powered rifles or machine guns), but the bullet stops being effective in far lower heights (roughly a halfway, or 1/3 way up), so even then you could no kill anyone higher than ~1500 meters, and that is late 20th century weapons. Scadrial is a century behind in this, and if we are being generous their most powerful rifles could kill someone ~800 meters high in the air, if shot straight up. Radiant under Lashing can cover this distance under 8 seconds under 4 lashings, so they would be exposed to fire for a relatively short amount of time + they would be moving at high speeds (and they are a small target).

Soulcast from CR, no range needed and no cost to Radiants.

Odium spren 'made' to detect surgebinding could not detect Lightweaving and Seekers cannot detect pulses muffled by Coppercloud (or those of Well), hence Lightweaving might be 'quiet' enough to escape detection. F-tin/A-bronze twinborn would have a better shot at this.

If this is your measure for usefulness in combat, then 2nd Oath Elsecaller is the most useful combat oriented magic user, they can camp out in CR and soulcast people away (or just Soulcast air around people into oil+flame, or prison). They could take out any Mistborn, Feruchemist, Twinborn and even a Fullborn (if they caught him when not tapping or burning, as then they would not be more invested than a person).

Half-shards are literally designed as military equipment and painrials are shown multiple times to be used in combat. Also, I already did show them in my previous post, but once again:

1. Half-shard shield - smaller discount shardplate of comparable durability, to help against gunfire
2. Painrial - shown to cripple everyone with pain, attach to Investiture conductive net or find a way to make it ranged and you have something resembling granade, or you can just use it in melee combat
3. Supperssor fabrials - to negate magic of opposing forces denying them Metalborn abilities, disabling their ettmetal weapons and craft in certain radius
4. Attractor fabrial attached to large piece of iron/steel (some chosen metal) set to a timer (they have watches) - lash this in the direction of Scadrial forces and the attractor fabrial will draw in the same substance, pulling away guns/ammo etc. temporarily taking away weapons.
5. Conjoiner can be used to create a basic gun, just modify the mechanism powering Kaladin's gauntlet.

He won't make more Fused because he does not want to invest himself on Roshar even more than he already has. But he is still willing to make exceptions, and since this thread is Scadrian vs Rosharan magic, we can include his making Fused even when only as a response against Harmony making more Metalborn.

I never compared arrows to bullets, I only mentioned arrows as an example of how Plate seems to be very heavy (as the momentum of the arrow did not even nudge it). Also, while penetration mechanism of arrow and a bullet differ (cutting vs pushing) their momenta are actually comparable, as typical arrow is ~4x as heavy as a bullet, but moves ~1/4 of the speed, giving comparable momenta. Of course in kinetic energy bullet will win roughly a 4x.

No I am argueing that guns in the hands of metalborn are extremely deadly. That some metalborn war capabilities lie in R&D of counter Radiant weaponry and tactics. That some metalborn are deadly all on their own and can stand toe to toe as well as kill any oath level of Radiants from a distance. I finally like some have said that many metalborn abilities lend themselves to lethal covert war tactics that Radiants would find hard to counter.

Sure Jasnah is a terror to ordinary soldiers in combat, but her real advantage is in her soulcasting not her weapon skills. Any number of metalborn could match her combat prowess or even remove her from combat at a distance before her soulcasting became an issue.

Most thugs and tin metal born could match Wax in marksmanship and marksmanship with guns is much easier to train than melee martial skills. Our own modern marines are near as good a Wax fresh out of boot camp. You don't need an outstanding marksman to shoot a Radiant out of the sky just enough bullets. Gravity lashings and velocity toward the marksman only increases the momentum of the bullets and projectiles that hit. Honestly I think you have been overestimating Radiants this whole time.

Attack from the CR assumes that a commander would leave that back door open because for now the CR is the only option to get to Roshar, and Radiants are even more vulnerable to attack from metalborn there than planetside. You really wouldn't need many gun armed troops there to wipe out any group of  Radiants there.

The momentum of Radiants falling from the stratosphere ensures their death from the crossfire coming at them from below and the airships in the sky. Getting to the stratosphere with big rocks might even exhaust their stormlight in the process. which is another death sentence in the mean time their army is being shelled into oblivion by extremely accurate metalborn gunners. Magic and technology work hand in hand on Scadrial creating breakthroughs for both.

Anit-thug rounds are practically armor piercing.

Odium is not making more fused and only converts regular pre-existing lesser spren. Stormfather can't just make more spren, and newly born spren are little more than children for potentially centuries so wouldn't be immediately useful, however war could potentially snap any Scadrian involved vastly increasing the numbers of metalborn.

Half shard are useful against a melee weapon wielding foe, but against rifle armed soldiers they are almost useless. Painrials again have very limited use unless you can get very close. This will almost never be a hand to hand fight between Radiants and Metalborn. Much of it wont even be close range. Why when you can just shoot someone would you ever let them in close. We are looking at a battle between King Arthur and General Sherman with super soldiers on both sides.

Harmony doesn't need to make more metalborn they will occur naturally because of the conflict because all scadrians have the inactive ability to be metalborn.

Everyone of the military fabrials lack range. In addition you didn't describe the construction of the specific attactor or repulsor fabrials which is no surprise since we haven't seen any that do those things in the books yet. What gems and metals would you use for them to attract or repel metal and what spren would you need. Oh many of the weapons could double as metalminds as well with all that implies.

22 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Hard disagree that Radiants will have a hard time closing distances. Gravitation Radiants will be rusting near impossible for anyone but Wax to hit, and their Plate will shrug off at least one bullet, so even if you hit them, it won't stop them. Abrasion Radiants are described to be speedy, graceful, and agile. Again, it's going to be hard to hit them. Even Radiants without those two Surges will be fast--just like Pewter, Stormlight gets them running quickly, and if they can shrug off bullets and are quickly moving, agile targets, closing the distance is going to be trivial unless they're up against F-Steel, A-Steel, or A-Iron. Also going to disagree that Jasnah is a sorceress--she walked into battle not once, but twice, and annihilated hundreds. If she's a magic-based character, she's at least multiclassed a couple levels into "Fighter". 

The bit about Radiants being agile also applies to any vehicles and artillery the Scadrians could bring to bear. When a team of armored Skybreakers could drop from the stratosphere at near-mach speeds and turn all your cannons, tanks, planes, etc. to dust before zooming away just as fast--after a while, artillery stops being an asset and starts being a massive money-sink. 

If we're going to assume the Metalborn will be highly skilled and capable, we naturally have to assume the same of the Radiants. Doing otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

And on the Radiant + Fused numbers, really, I don't know, but it doesn't seem too far out considering the point already made that spren can reproduce and that Odium and the Stormfather could make more if motivated (and an interplanetary war is plenty motivation)

 

Edit: To be fair, if a Dustbringer or Edgedancer charged at a garrison of some dozen Scadrian machine gunners, they'd quickly be overwhelmed by bullets, and no amount of Stormlight would save them as long as the guns kept shooting. But that's not Scadrian magic, that's machine guns being a very potent and powerful magic (Murica emoji goes here). Honestly Stonewards could probably make themselves bulletproof easily tho so it just depends on using your Radiants wisely 

No enough rounds makes anyone a hittable target even by average marksmen.

Skybreakers dropping from the sky see response above.

Metalborn don't need more than average skill to be very effective with fire arms.

All of the Scadrians could snap during a war.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Sure Jasnah is a terror to ordinary soldiers in combat, but her real advantage is in her soulcasting not her weapon skills. Any number of metalborn could match her combat prowess or even remove her from combat at a distance before her soulcasting became an issue.

How on earth do they get to the CR?

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Most thugs and tin metal born could match Wax in marksmanship and marksmanship with guns is much easier to train than melee martial skills. Our own modern marines are near as good a Wax fresh out of boot camp. You don't need an outstanding marksman to shoot a Radiant out of the sky just enough bullets. Gravity lashings and velocity toward the marksman only increases the momentum of the bullets and projectiles that hit. Honestly I think you have been overestimating Radiants this whole time.

Don't need any training to kill with shards, and how many marines can shoot an incoming Missile? Or in better percpective how many musketeers could shoot a cannonball in flight?

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Attack from the CR assumes that a commander would leave that back door open because for now the CR is the only option to get to Roshar, and Radiants are even more vulnerable to attack from metalborn there than planetside. You really wouldn't need many gun armed troops there to wipe out any group of  Radiants there.

Long supply line for people without the ability to manifest objects. Honorblades will still work in the CR, and Scadrial can only has one entry point to the CR, cut that off and their forces in the CR are stranded and will starve to death. Simply fly Elsecallers over and seize the perpendicularity and hole yourself up until the toops in the CR starve or surrender and then it's yours for good.

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The momentum of Radiants falling from the stratosphere ensures their death from the crossfire coming at them from below and the airships in the sky. Getting to the stratosphere with big rocks might even exhaust their stormlight in the process. which is another death sentence in the mean time their army is being shelled into oblivion by extremely accurate metalborn gunners.

The unarmed airships? the ones that couldn't fly if they carried enough fire power to actually be a problem and can simply be cut in half and fall to their death?

And there is no need tto fall from the stratosphere and even if you did simple canceling all previous lashings and lashing yourself to the side prevents all fall damage.

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Anit-thug rounds are practically armor piercing.

Not enough

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Odium is not making more fused and only converts regular pre-existing lesser spren. Stormfather can't just make more spren, and newly born spren are little more than children for potentially centuries so wouldn't be immediately useful, however war could potentially snap any Scadrian involved vastly increasing the numbers of metalborn.

Odium could, Stormfather can, and Syl proves that young spren are just as effective.

Not every Scadrian can snap, even with Preservation activly increasing the ability of metalborn to achieve power via snapping only 16% of the population had the power, and that was before allomancy became so diluted.

14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Half shard are useful against a melee weapon wielding foe, but against rifle armed soldiers they are almost useless. Painrials again have very limited use unless you can get very close. This will almost never be a hand to hand fight between Radiants and Metalborn. Much of it wont even be close range. Why when you can just shoot someone would you ever let them in close. We are looking at a battle between King Arthur and General Sherman with super soldiers on both sides.

What says halfshards are useless?

Painrails can be used at range

21 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Harmony doesn't need to make more metalborn they will occur naturally because of the conflict because all scadrians have the inactive ability to be metalborn.

No it won't the amount of metalborn is set snapping has been changed if they have the power they will automatically snap.

22 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No enough rounds makes anyone a hittable target even by average marksmen.

I don't care how many rounds someone in Japan has, they aren't hitting me.

24 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Metalborn don't need more than average skill to be very effective with fire arms.

Radiants don't need any skill to be leathal with shards, and thunderclast need even less.

25 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

All of the Scadrians could snap during a war.

No they can't snapping has changed, everyone that can has already snapped.

[The Technovore]

35 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Most thugs and tin metal born could match Wax in marksmanship and marksmanship with guns is much easier to train than melee martial skills. Our own modern marines are near as good a Wax fresh out of boot camp. You don't need an outstanding marksman to shoot a Radiant out of the sky just enough bullets. Gravity lashings and velocity toward the marksman only increases the momentum of the bullets and projectiles that hit. Honestly I think you have been overestimating Radiants this whole time.

Honestly this paragraph is hilarious to me. It's so far from reality. Waxillium in AoL single-handedly took out 25 armed thugs without armor. The amount of protagonist energy required for that even by in-world standards is insane. Remember how intensely shocked the constable was? That's because that kind of thing only happens to main characters in books. Police and 
Soldiers are trained to aim for the center of mass of their target. Why? Because you can't reliably hit any other part of the body. 

Here's some light reading for you: http://carlos.excaliba.de/Diverses/Real_Role_of_Small_Arms_RDS_Summer_09.pdf

https://www.police1.com/patrol-issues/articles/why-shooting-to-wound-doesnt-make-sense-scientifically-legally-or-tactically-6bOdYvNUEECtIWRI/

Bottom line? For any non-protagonist character, your accuracy in a combat situation against a moving target is going to look a lot less Waxillium Ladrian and a lot more "Unnamed Set Minion #327". And that's in real life, where humans don't fly or move with remarkable precision and agility. Please do not entertain notions of humans containing super-sniper accuracy against moving targets any more. You're looking at a mach-speed human-sized target with the armor of a tank versus a series of non-flak projectiles shot at essentially random angles. They'll be unlucky if they're hit thrice, and they can shrug that off no problem. Do not tell us that we are overestimating Radiants and then proceed to give every Thug and Tineye impossible levels of accuracy. 

 

Here's a hot take: Between RoW and AoL there's somewhere around 5 to 10 years of wiggle room. In that time, Urithiru discovers gunpowder, and the Transformation Radiants set about to soulcasting huge amounts of that, and Aluminum. Within another 4 years your bog-standard Rosharan soldier will have Napoleonic-Era Muskets made out of Aluminum Alloy and shooting Aluminum Alloy Rounds, while Gravitation Radiants just launch barrels of gunpowder at them like explosive trebuchets. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, The Technovore said:

Honestly this paragraph is hilarious to me. It's so far from reality. Waxillium in AoL single-handedly took out 25 armed thugs without armor.

wasn't it thiry-one?

[therunner]

Just a few unadressed points

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No I am argueing that guns in the hands of metalborn are extremely deadly. That some metalborn war capabilities lie in R&D of counter Radiant weaponry and tactics. That some metalborn are deadly all on their own and can stand toe to toe as well as kill any oath level of Radiants from a distance. I finally like some have said that many metalborn abilities lend themselves to lethal covert war tactics that Radiants would find hard to counter.

Why are guns deadlier in hands of metalborn than in hands of others? Sure coinshots can push on bullets, or specialized partially aluminum bullets, and tin-eyes and thugs might be marginally better shots, but those are quantitative changes at best, not qualitative ones.

The only metalborn with powers suited to R&D are F-zinc (but those will spend equal time useless for R&D due to storing), F-copper helps (but not much more than a good large library with smart filling system, only maybe by tens of minutes of time), and maybe those with A-bronze as the only Investiture sensors Scadrial has.

Which metalborn are deadly all on their own? Outside of those with F-steel and Thug/Soulbearer, you always mentioned that the metalborn has a gun and it was key to their victory (or you assumed that somehow they can touch Radiant without A-pewter, or F-steel and survive).

Covert tactics are name of the game for Metalborn, because in direct combat they are simply not good enough outside of few exceptions. Of course very little metalborn (not Mistborn though) have any abilities that would help with stealth, and any Lightweaver is better at it then they are (but they need Stormlight which limits them somewhat).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Most thugs and tin metal born could match Wax in marksmanship and marksmanship with guns is much easier to train than melee martial skills.

No they could not. Where are all these legendary marksmen (as Wax is already considered a living legends before the books) in Era 2? Because there are exactly zero of them.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Anit-thug rounds are practically armor piercing.

No they are not, regular arrows or swords are sufficient against Thugs, so they are nowhere near as tough as armor is.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Half shard are useful against a melee weapon wielding foe, but against rifle armed soldiers they are almost useless. Painrials again have very limited use unless you can get very close. This will almost never be a hand to hand fight between Radiants and Metalborn. Much of it wont even be close range. Why when you can just shoot someone would you ever let them in close. We are looking at a battle between King Arthur and General Sherman with super soldiers on both sides.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Everyone of the military fabrials lack range. In addition you didn't describe the construction of the specific attactor or repulsor fabrials which is no surprise since we haven't seen any that do those things in the books yet. What gems and metals would you use for them to attract or repel metal and what spren would you need. Oh many of the weapons could double as metalminds as well with all that implies.

Half-shards are completely fine against rifles. Just strap them on as breastplate and you have discount bullet-proof vest. Painrials while currently relatively short-ranged, can also be used to create soldiers that feel little pain, sort of like pewter helps with ignoring pain.

Also you have completely ignored suppressors, which might simply shut down any metalborn or Metallic arts device in range. And you could throw those (or lash those).

For attractor/repulsor fabrials, of course I cannot list how exactly they are made, it is a fictional science but i can guess:

1. We know that attractor fabrials use iron, repelers presumably use steel.
2. They created attractors that can attract 1) Water (even from air, so even trace amounts), 2) Smoke, 3) Weights on Wandersail, (so presumably some kind of metal or stone). Since the first two are definite examples of Ten Essences and the third one is most likely as well, I would assume you can create Fabrial that attracts/repels any of the Ten Essences, and metal is explicitly one of those (outside of Aluminum of course).
3. The gem required would then most likely be corresponding polestone, i.e. for metal you would use amethyst.
4. We don't know which spren are the other attractors using, so I cannot really say, it might easily be kind of spren that has not yet been named.

Even if your soldiers would use guns as metalminds, only a few of them could, as making guns out of anything but steel/iron is not good idea, you could plate them in other metal however. But either way, most metalminds are not even full enough to resist pushes or pulls, why would they resist this better?

Edited May 21, 2021 by therunner
added a spren for attractor fabrial

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 5/19/2021 at 5:07 PM, BenduLuke said:

Roshars fabrials are not military weapons and you cannot assume they will be. Show me one that is weapons grade that they currently have.

Every metalborn ability has some military application especially if paired with Scadrian Fabrials.

Scadrials fabrials are not military weapons and you cannot assume they will be. Show me one that is weapons grade that they currently have.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Everyone of the military fabrials lack range.

As does ettmetal. (Also, you can throw things. Painrial or suppressor "grenade", perhaps?)

[Bigmikey357]

So I guess every Scadrian soldier becomes Waxillium Dawnshot if you give him an aluminum pistol and a pass to Roshar. Even an aluminum gnat is metalborn so he is automatically the most deadly gunslinger in the Cosmere. Meanwhile Shardplate is as strong as wet cardboard as long as it gets hit with an aluminum bullet and the literal Surges of Creation are a minor inconvenience to deal with for a Mistborn.  No offense but how ridiculous does that sound? Just say you like the Mistborn books over Stormlight.  That'd be more honest. 

As powerful as Wax is the only way he beats Jasnah is with the Bands. I'd give Kaladin about equal odds even if you gave Wax the Bands. The only people from Scadrial's magic system that can stand toe to toe with a full Radiant regardless of order is a Fullborn.  Next likely is an R-Inquisitor or a Double Steel or Double Gold twin. Then it's standard Inquisitors, Full Feruchemists and finally Mistborn with Atium.  Those are literally it. I don't care what type of Mistings or Ferring you throw at a 4th Ideal Radiant, a candle flame in a hurricane has a better chance. 

I'd be willing to change my mind if Scadrial had modern weaponry and Roshar had no way to get it. As it stands now there are at most 5 people in the entire Mistborn series that would stand a chance of beating a Radiant.  Vin, Marsh, Sazed, TLR and maybe Wax.

As far as armies, maybe Scadrial can mount an entire army full of Metallic Arts users.  Unlikely but possible.  But to rely on the regular soldiers to snap en route or once the fighting starts would be incredibly foolish.  How many Mistings are worth anything in direct combat?  Steel, Iron, Pewter. Everything else is either useless or strictly support. Meanwhile every Radiant on the field would be a menace, every individual with Plate is a tank, and Surges are just as much a gamechanger as post Civil War  guns are.

[BenduLuke]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Scadrials fabrials are not military weapons and you cannot assume they will be. Show me one that is weapons grade that they currently have.

As does ettmetal. (Also, you can throw things. Painrial or suppressor "grenade", perhaps?)

In the hands of a Nicrosil compounder every metalborn granting medallion becomes weapons grade. A Soulbearer can store investiture in a metalmind so given at least 32 metalminds they can store the entire range of metalborn abilities and with at least one other they can systematically compound each and everyone of those abilities to grant extended use of them and scale them up to first generation power level. They could then train and practice to cross combine them in any number of ways to create a fully compounding fullborn with the ability to enhance or magnify all their allies.

A Zinc compounder would be like Revan able to see, understand, and counter any Rosharan tactic or strategy before they were able to use it, and to use their riot abilities to create a form of battle meditation creating a more cohesive force with their allies and disrupting the cohesiveness of enemy soldiers.

I am telling you these are just 2 ways that show Scadrians are seriously underestimated on this topic.

I think one of the main underlying assumptions behind that underestimation is that metalborn and radiants would play by the same tactics and rules of engagement, but that is naive given both the difference in Tech and culture. I suggested Arthur and Sherman intentionally instead of some other civil war era general. Frustrations contention of Scadrians being unable to reach the CR is moot since at this point that is the only avenue open to facilitating this conflict so it must be assumed that they can, besides there are Scadrian on Roshar already so it is possible.

This would not be line up and fight conflict favoring Roshar, but a cover and shoot the enemy conflict. Yes some Radiants can fly and be shot out of the open sky. any massing of Rosharan forces leaves them vulnerable to artillery and rapid fire weapons long before they are in range to fight. Rosharan fabrials and weapons have ranges in feet, but Scadrian tech has ranges in thousands of yards and their fabrials serve as ability enhancers making their magic and tech that much more deadly from any range.

Frustration also made the statement that it was David's faith that allowed him to win against Goliath, but his Faith in God in reality gave him the confidence to try. It was his skill with the sling that won the day. A skill that he thanked God for, never the less it was his work and practice with it that developed that God given skill. Wax's skill with the gun is attributed to the same dedication to develop his skill, which means that anyone who worked hard enough at it could achieve skill at or near his level with time. Plus with rapid fire weapons you don't need as much skill to hit a target.

I will reiterate that in my opinion this conflict will almost never develop into a toe to toe fight, and if in the rare instance that it does there are metalborn that could be a serious challenge to any oath level of metalborn. In addition to that it is also likely that the conflict itself would snap additional metalborn. All Scadrian soldiers would probably carry a small supply of allomantic metal both in case they snap and as a reserve for those who have. Since some continue to bring up Thunderclasts I will address this. Seeming ways to fight them is with hammers, so use concusive force to disable them, and use weapons which drain investiture. As such leeches would be dangerous to them permanently as would artillery to continually disable them. A big cannon ball would do the job of shattering their stone bodies over and over. Add explosives to that and they might never be able to take more than a few steps before being demolished. Again from a long distance. If the ever got close enough to actually engage the Scadrians they better pray there are no leechers among the metalborn.

I am sorry you will all need to do better to prove to me that this conflict is as one sided as you seem to believe. I don't buy it i think you are overlooking and underestimating far to many factors to be convinced.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

In the hands of a Nicrosil compounder every metalborn granting medallion becomes weapons grade. A Soulbearer can store investiture in a metalmind so given at least 32 metalminds they can store the entire range of metalborn abilities and with at least one other they can systematically compound each and everyone of those abilities to grant extended use of them and scale them up to first generation power level. They could then train and practice to cross combine them in any number of ways to create a fully compounding fullborn with the ability to enhance or magnify all their allies.

How many Nicrocil compounders have ever existed?

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A Zinc compounder would be like Revan able to see, understand, and counter any Rosharan tactic or strategy before they were able to use it, and to use their riot abilities to create a form of battle meditation creating a more cohesive force with their allies and disrupting the cohesiveness of enemy soldiers.

1. How many exist?
2. Radiants are uneffected
3. doesn't even matter for a Thunderclast

12 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I think one of the main underlying assumptions behind that underestimation is that metalborn and radiants would play by the same tactics and rules of engagement, but that is naive given both the difference in Tech and culture. I suggested Arthur and Sherman intentionally instead of some other civil war era general. Frustrations contention of Scadrians being unable to reach the CR is moot since at this point that is the only avenue open to facilitating this conflict so it must be assumed that they can, besides there are Scadrian on Roshar already so it is possible.

They have one perpendicularity not dozens, I never said they couldn't just that they only have one way to do so, and one that can be easily taken away.

14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I will reiterate that in my opinion this conflict will almost never develop into a toe to toe fight, and if in the rare instance that it does there are metalborn that could be a serious challenge to any oath level of metalborn. In addition to that it is also likely that the conflict itself would snap additional metalborn. All Scadrian soldiers would probably carry a small supply of allomantic metal both in case they snap and as a reserve for those who have. Since some continue to bring up Thunderclasts I will address this. Seeming ways to fight them is with hammers, so use concusive force to disable them, and use weapons which drain investiture. As such leeches would be dangerous to them permanently as would artillery to continually disable them. A big cannon ball would do the job of shattering their stone bodies over and over. Add explosives to that and they might never be able to take more than a few steps before being demolished. Again from a long distance. If the ever got close enough to actually engage the Scadrians they better pray there are no leechers among the metalborn.

1. Conflict will not snapp new metalborn, snapping has changed they have already snapped
2. Chromium likely would not have any significant effect on a Thunderclast as it would have to leech their souls, which they likely can't do
3. Even if they could do that it would be far too slow to actually incapasitate them as Chromium burns too quickly https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e881
4. Heavy artillery will not save them, maybe with really high grade explosives, they might do something, but always at great risk to themselves as Thunderclast can littrerally pop out of any stone, why would they place themselves a mile away from everything?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

How many Nicrocil compounders have ever existed?

Quite possibly none, since only three Crashers are known to have existed, and those are more common powers, while the Spiritual quadrant is (at least for Feruchemy) "very, very rare", according to VenDell.

[therunner]

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

In the hands of a Nicrosil compounder every metalborn granting medallion becomes weapons grade. A Soulbearer can store investiture in a metalmind so given at least 32 metalminds they can store the entire range of metalborn abilities and with at least one other they can systematically compound each and everyone of those abilities to grant extended use of them and scale them up to first generation power level. They could then train and practice to cross combine them in any number of ways to create a fully compounding fullborn with the ability to enhance or magnify all their allies.

We have no clue what nicrosil compounding does, and for medallions the nicrosil portion works like Copper (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247) and Compounding Copper might not do much (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3327).

We also don't know if you can store abilities granted by Medallions into different metalminds, as those are technically foreign to the Body/Soul.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A Zinc compounder would be like Revan able to see, understand, and counter any Rosharan tactic or strategy before they were able to use it, and to use their riot abilities to create a form of battle meditation creating a more cohesive force with their allies and disrupting the cohesiveness of enemy soldiers.

They would be nothing like Revan, as Revan was fighting against forces he first intentionally depleted, and whose battle tactics he devised along with top general that seceded with him.

Sure they will think fast and come to conclusions with great speed, but they need information to work off, so they would need to see tactics/strategies and powers first, they are not psychic. For rioting soldiers -> suppressors, so Rosharan's are shielded and Scadrial forces can be randomly disrupted by lashing suppresors. Also Radiants are shielded thanks to being heavily Invested + Plate, *-form Singers are also most likely a bit more resistant since they are already under similar effect, and Fused are heavily invested Cognitive Shadows.

But mental manipulation is a nice idea, so let's unleash Thrill on unprepared Scadrians, and maybe add Heart of Revel on their command center.

Also why are you bringing up other fictional universes with completely different rules?

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I think one of the main underlying assumptions behind that underestimation is that metalborn and radiants would play by the same tactics and rules of engagement, but that is naive given both the difference in Tech and culture. I suggested Arthur and Sherman intentionally instead of some other civil war era general. Frustrations contention of Scadrians being unable to reach the CR is moot since at this point that is the only avenue open to facilitating this conflict so it must be assumed that they can, besides there are Scadrian on Roshar already so it is possible.

Of course each side would try to play to their strengths and would prepare their strategies accordingly. This however means that Rosharans and their Radiants would try to force encounters in close quarters, and since they have much better mobility they would be able to do so more often than not.

Scadrial has access to exactly one perpendicularity on their planet, and to only two on Roshar and both of those are not easily accessible (mountain peak and underwater; either at Origin, or in the middle of super-hurricane) and so would really complicate invasion.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

This would not be line up and fight conflict favoring Roshar, but a cover and shoot the enemy conflict. Yes some Radiants can fly and be shot out of the open sky. any massing of Rosharan forces leaves them vulnerable to artillery and rapid fire weapons long before they are in range to fight. Rosharan fabrials and weapons have ranges in feet, but Scadrian tech has ranges in thousands of yards and their fabrials serve as ability enhancers making their magic and tech that much more deadly from any range.

1. Radiants with gravitation can easily fly 2km high (out of range of anything Scadrial has available at this time), and drop down under 10 seconds under six lashings. Since they cancel normal gravity when lashing, any direction is as easy to travel into so the height is not a problem. And since Kal (at 3rd Oath) flew few thousands km as fast as he could using only the light he could carry, I think they are safe on that front. So these Radiant can appear in the sky over the Scadrian camp, and drop down faster than anyone could shoot them (and they can form their spren into shields, and since they are right on top of them, they would shield most of their body).
2. Radiants with Transportation can literally appear in the middle of camp, again forcing close quarters battle, which favours Radiants a lot. (and they could carry some other Radiants with them).
3. Stonewards could probably form tunnels and lead the rest to the camp, again popping up in the middle of the camp.
4. Thunderclasts can form wherever they want, so they would simply form, again, in the middle of Scadrian camp, behind the cannons (or you know, right under the cannons, disabling them just by appearing).

Only Scadrian cannons can have range of thousands of yards, their rifles have at best range of ~1000 meters (and that is effective range which assumes every other shot misses), and revolvers have effective range of tens of meters only, at best 50. Also Scadrial has absolutely no fabrials that can serve as ability enhancers, unless you mean medallions, but even those are not exactly making someone much more deadly from range.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

.Wax's skill with the gun is attributed to the same dedication to develop his skill, which means that anyone who worked hard enough at it could achieve skill at or near his level with time. Plus with rapid fire weapons you don't need as much skill to hit a target.

Wax's skills are completely and utterly legendary, in Era 3 they will have comic books of him for christ sake. To claim that anyone could train to be that good is utterly ridiculous. He had one in a generation talent, maybe even rarer, you will never see armies with his accuracy, only individuals maybe.

And the only rapid-fire weapons Scadrial has are few relatively new machine guns, and those are comparable to gatling guns, which were accurate to somewhere between 180 and 800 meters (and again this is effective range, which assumes every other shot misses). These are distances Radiant can cover in seconds with lashings.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I will reiterate that in my opinion this conflict will almost never develop into a toe to toe fight, and if in the rare instance that it does there are metalborn that could be a serious challenge to any oath level of metalborn. In addition to that it is also likely that the conflict itself would snap additional metalborn. All Scadrian soldiers would probably carry a small supply of allomantic metal both in case they snap and as a reserve for those who have. Since some continue to bring up Thunderclasts I will address this. Seeming ways to fight them is with hammers, so use concusive force to disable them, and use weapons which drain investiture. As such leeches would be dangerous to them permanently as would artillery to continually disable them. A big cannon ball would do the job of shattering their stone bodies over and over. Add explosives to that and they might never be able to take more than a few steps before being demolished. Again from a long distance. If the ever got close enough to actually engage the Scadrians they better pray there are no leechers among the metalborn.

There are maybe a 100 total Metalborn alive that could challenge 3rd Oath Radiant, and a few dozen at best that could do that to 4th Oath Radiant, mostly good F-steel twins. Killed Metalborn is lost forever, killed Radiant gets replaced relatively fast, especially in the middle of war.

It might snap some, but since Sazed changed it, most snap so easily that nearly everyone that can has already snapped.

Thunderclasts would not do Scadrians the favor of appearing away from their camp, they would simply form right under. So no cannons or artillery (unless you had a system of camps where each one kept some cannons pointed at the others, to which I say there are more than one thunderclast), explosives would wipe out your own forces and would only temporarily disable Thunderclast (until it formed a new body). Those hammers are probably not ordinary hammers but Shard hammers, wielded by plated individuals, so nothing Scadrial could do on their own (unless there were multiple F-pewter ferring that survived the initial appearance).

Also the stone body is only effectively a puppet, the Thunderclast itself is the Fused soul within, so the only thing that might hurt it are Leechers, but there are two complications

1. Chromium burns fast, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e881) and Cognitive Shadows are heavily invested, and Fused even more so.
2. Chromium works like larkin do, and larkin don't kill Fused or Cognitive Shadows, hence leecher might take away their Voidlight, but the Fused animating the stone would remain unharmed. What effect would have that on the stone body is a good question, but to leech away all the Voidlight would probably take at least at least a dozen seconds of sustained contact, which would be detrimental to health of a Leecher.

Not to mention that Thunderclasts would most likely not attack alone, add in a couple of Lightweaver to take advantage of the chaos and it would get real fun.

Edited May 22, 2021 by therunner

[BenduLuke]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

We have no clue what nicrosil compounding does, and for medallions the nicrosil portion works like Copper (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247) and Compounding Copper might not do much (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3327).

We also don't know if you can store abilities granted by Medallions into different metalminds, as those are technically foreign to the Body/Soul.

They would be nothing like Revan, as Revan was fighting against forces he first intentionally depleted, and whose battle tactics he devised along with top general that seceded with him.

Sure they will think fast and come to conclusions with great speed, but they need information to work off, so they would need to see tactics/strategies and powers first, they are not psychic. For rioting soldiers -> suppressors, so Rosharan's are shielded and Scadrial forces can be randomly disrupted by lashing suppresors. Also Radiants are shielded thanks to being heavily Invested + Plate, *-form Singers are also most likely a bit more resistant since they are already under similar effect, and Fused are heavily invested Cognitive Shadows.

But mental manipulation is a nice idea, so let's unleash Thrill on unprepared Scadrians, and maybe add Heart of Revel on their command center.

Also why are you bringing up other fictional universes with completely different rules?

Of course each side would try to play to their strengths and would prepare their strategies accordingly. This however means that Rosharans and their Radiants would try to force encounters in close quarters, and since they have much better mobility they would be able to do so more often than not.

Scadrial has access to exactly one perpendicularity on their planet, and to only two on Roshar and both of those are not easily accessible (mountain peak and underwater; either at Origin, or in the middle of super-hurricane) and so would really complicate invasion.

1. Radiants with gravitation can easily fly 2km high (out of range of anything Scadrial has available at this time), and drop down under 10 seconds under six lashings. Since they cancel normal gravity when lashing, any direction is as easy to travel into so the height is not a problem. And since Kal (at 3rd Oath) flew few thousands km as fast as he could using only the light he could carry, I think they are safe on that front. So these Radiant can appear in the sky over the Scadrian camp, and drop down faster than anyone could shoot them (and they can form their spren into shields, and since they are right on top of them, they would shield most of their body).
2. Radiants with Transportation can literally appear in the middle of camp, again forcing close quarters battle, which favours Radiants a lot. (and they could carry some other Radiants with them).
3. Stonewards could probably form tunnels and lead the rest to the camp, again popping up in the middle of the camp.
4. Thunderclasts can form wherever they want, so they would simply form, again, in the middle of Scadrian camp, behind the cannons (or you know, right under the cannons, disabling them just by appearing).

Only Scadrian cannons can have range of thousands of yards, their rifles have at best range of ~1000 meters (and that is effective range which assumes every other shot misses), and revolvers have effective range of tens of meters only, at best 50. Also Scadrial has absolutely no fabrials that can serve as ability enhancers, unless you mean medallions, but even those are not exactly making someone much more deadly from range.

Wax's skills are completely and utterly legendary, in Era 3 they will have comic books of him for christ sake. To claim that anyone could train to be that good is utterly ridiculous. He had one in a generation talent, maybe even rarer, you will never see armies with his accuracy, only individuals maybe.

And the only rapid-fire weapons Scadrial has are few relatively new machine guns, and those are comparable to gatling guns, which were accurate to somewhere between 180 and 800 meters (and again this is effective range, which assumes every other shot misses). These are distances Radiant can cover in seconds with lashings.

There are maybe a 100 total Metalborn alive that could challenge 3rd Oath Radiant, and a few dozen at best that could do that to 4th Oath Radiant, mostly good F-steel twins. Killed Metalborn is lost forever, killed Radiant gets replaced relatively fast, especially in the middle of war.

It might snap some, but since Sazed changed it, most snap so easily that nearly everyone that can has already snapped.

Thunderclasts would not do Scadrians the favor of appearing away from their camp, they would simply form right under. So no cannons or artillery (unless you had a system of camps where each one kept some cannons pointed at the others, to which I say there are more than one thunderclast), explosives would wipe out your own forces and would only temporarily disable Thunderclast (until it formed a new body). Those hammers are probably not ordinary hammers but Shard hammers, wielded by plated individuals, so nothing Scadrial could do on their own (unless there were multiple F-pewter ferring that survived the initial appearance).

Also the stone body is only effectively a puppet, the Thunderclast itself is the Fused soul within, so the only thing that might hurt it are Leechers, but there are two complications

1. Chromium burns fast, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e881) and Cognitive Shadows are heavily invested, and Fused even more so.
2. Chromium works like larkin do, and larkin don't kill Fused or Cognitive Shadows, hence leecher might take away their Voidlight, but the Fused animating the stone would remain unharmed. What effect would have that on the stone body is a good question, but to leech away all the Voidlight would probably take at least at least a dozen seconds of sustained contact, which would be detrimental to health of a Leecher.

Not to mention that Thunderclasts would most likely not attack alone, add in a couple of Lightweaver to take advantage of the chaos and it would get real fun.

Your under estimating the difference and tactics of rifle tactics vs pike tactics in the conflict. Dropping from above doesn't guarantee a decisive strike but it does guarantee being open to crossfire, and Scadrian forces would likely not be confined to just the ground either. A few radiants have a seeming mobility advantage, but Scadrians have the potential to have a more general mobility advantage in the air.

You also keep assuming that there will be many available Radiants, but at this time the Spren in general don't want to bond anyone and even an increase in their number doesn't guarantee a large number would bond anyone. Since Rosharans are enslaving Spren wholesale when they can there is the distinct possiblity that the existing spren would choose to bond with Scadrian invaders to end the wholesale slavery. In additions the vast majority of Radiant would not be of 4th oath and above and so would lack those defensive capabilities leaving them open to wholesale slaughter by the more advanced weapons and tactics of the Scadrians. If there are only about 100 metalborn who could take a 4th oath Radiant then it is a good thing there are only 3 Radiants of that oath thus far and no guarantee of there being more. Nor is there a guarantee that there will be more radiants to progress through the oath at all in the future beyond what exist now and the likelyhood that the number of Spren will actually decline due to the current war on Roshar.

A thunderclast can also be dealt with by trapping the Voidspren in an aluminum cage or net either before they form the thunderclast or after demolishing the stone body. Oh and they only form a stone body if there is stone to form it from and they seem to be exceedingly rare. They also need time to form the stone body so forming in the Scadrian camp is a recipe for being demolished before they finish. Draining stormlight from the Spren also effectively disables it.

Wax's real genius isn't in his marksmanship but in his defensive and manipulation abilities, which is why he survives so many encounters he gets involved in. Even the most talented or skilled marksman would have trouble hitting him. The Rosharan's don't have the same defensive skills since they rely strongly on being able to absorb damage instead of avoiding it. The faster a Radiant lashes toward the rifles the more of an impact they will need to absorb from the bullets and other projectiles and again due to their tech Scadrians don't need to clump up so can effectively attack the few Radiants who rush in from virtually all sides from cover.

One other potential weapon in the Scadrian arseal are Nicrosil compounding medalions which have the potential to turn almost any soldier into a fullborn for a time. You don't actually need to have a large portion of the population to have snapped even though a war would likely cause that as well.

I was siting related abilities from a different universe, but one that Brandon used as a basis to his allomancy. The mechanics of emotional allomancy allow for a form of battle meditation in the Cosmere. You think a  Zinc compounder commander would be working alone? No. They would be able to get the intelligence nessisary to determine where and when Rosharan's were massing for battle and direct fire at the optimal time to break them up. Any attacks with small Rosharan forces could be overwhelmed in short order by the weapons, magic, and tactics of Scadrians. The melee tactics of Roshar are history to Scadiral so are easily anticipated and countered, but Roshar has never seen anything like the tactics Scadrial would use.

I get your loyalty to the Rosharans and the surface advantage you and others have for them, but you still haven't been able to convince me that the surface advantages or Roshar translate to an actual decisive advantage on their part over Scadrians. Please don't mistake me. I can see how each side could leverage an advantage temporarily over the other, just not decisively so overall. I don't expect to be able to convince all of you of that. I choose to side with Scadrial because no one else seems to want to. If the discussion had been more balanced up to this point I would probably have played both sides, but it hasn't so I picked a side. The more we discuss this the more restricted I think Rosharn magic and tech are.

Odds are that when the conflict actually takes place Scadrial will be in the position of being able to orbitally bombard Roshar and space will be so populated so as to vastly increase the distances of travel in the CR.

Cannons can have ranges in the miles/km's, and some Rifles over a mile of effective range though it is a rare person indeed who can make that shot. I should know I am a marksman. My effective range with my rifles is about 1/2 km.

Larkins do almost immediately strip all the void light from Fused though effectively rendering them powerless. Oh and fast is a relative term not a definitive limit. You know a nicroburst might cause a thunderclast to explode and then the spen would be disabled for a time. To avoid injury use a primer cube grenade for the affect from cover.

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Your under estimating the difference and tactics of rifle tactics vs pike tactics in the conflict. Dropping from above doesn't guarantee a decisive strike but it does guarantee being open to crossfire, and Scadrian forces would likely not be confined to just the ground either. A few radiants have a seeming mobility advantage, but Scadrians have the potential to have a more general mobility advantage in the air.

Yes a tank dropped in the middle of pre ww1 forces isn't garunteed to be almost unstopable, uh, no, they will destroy.

There will be far more Windrunners/skybreakers than there are Coinshots, and flying ships would take years to build but could be destroyed in seconds

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You also keep assuming that there will be many available Radiants, but at this time the Spren in general don't want to bond anyone and even an increase in their number doesn't guarantee a large number would bond anyone. Since Rosharans are enslaving Spren wholesale when they can there is the distinct possiblity that the existing spren would choose to bond with Scadrian invaders to end the wholesale slavery. In additions the vast majority of Radiant would not be of 4th oath and above and so would lack those defensive capabilities leaving them open to wholesale slaughter by the more advanced weapons and tactics of the Scadrians. If there are only about 100 metalborn who could take a 4th oath Radiant then it is a good thing there are only 3 Radiants of that oath thus far and no guarantee of there being more. Nor is there a guarantee that there will be more radiants to progress through the oath at all in the future beyond what exist now and the likelyhood that the number of Spren will actually decline due to the current war on Roshar.

Elendel basin is on the verge of civil war, and north and south don't trust each other, I think it's best for you to assume both sides are unified, as Roshar is a lot closer to that than Scadrial is. I also find it ammusing you think Scadrial needs Rosharan magic to beat Roshar.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A thunderclast can also be dealt with by trapping the Voidspren in an aluminum cage or net either before they form the thunderclast or after demolishing the stone body. Oh and they only form a stone body if there is stone to form it from and they seem to be exceedingly rare. They also need time to form the stone body so forming in the Scadrian camp is a recipe for being demolished before they finish. Draining stormlight from the Spren also effectively disables it.

They can go through the ground beneath them and fly how do you propose to trap them in a box? And a net wouldn't work.

There are plenty of Thunderclast.

Draining Stormlight won't do anything, neither will draining Voidlight, and they make bodies almost instantly.

23 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Wax's real genius isn't in his marksmanship but in his defensive and manipulation abilities, which is why he survives so many encounters he gets involved in. Even the most talented or skilled marksman would have trouble hitting him. The Rosharan's don't have the same defensive skills since they rely strongly on being able to absorb damage instead of avoiding it. The faster a Radiant lashes toward the rifles the more of an impact they will need to absorb from the bullets and other projectiles and again due to their tech Scadrians don't need to clump up so can effectively attack the few Radiants who rush in from virtually all sides from cover.

Saying that they would take more force when moving towards them asumes they get hit, which vastly decreases the faster they go. And no, an ordinary marksmen isn't shooting bullets out of the air, with enough accuracy to hit something around a corner. That is supperhuman

25 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

One other potential weapon in the Scadrian arseal are Nicrosil compounding medalions which have the potential to turn almost any soldier into a fullborn for a time. You don't actually need to have a large portion of the population to have snapped even though a war would likely cause that as well.

I highly doubt it will be possible to use medalions to become fullborn. In fact I'd go so far as to say inpossible.

In order to burn the nicrocil you need to be a nicroburst, so that is your allomantic metal, but medalions contain two metals that you need to use so you would have to be able to burn both of them something you can't do, esspecially since you can only use one medallion at a time.

Mistborn are non-existent and evern in era three they will be rare, Brandon isn't putting something in that can make any random non into a fullborn.

30 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I was siting related abilities from a different universe, but one that Brandon used as a basis to his allomancy. The mechanics of emotional allomancy allow for a form of battle meditation in the Cosmere. You think a  Zinc compounder commander would be working alone? No. They would be able to get the intelligence nessisary to determine where and when Rosharan's were massing for battle and direct fire at the optimal time to break them up. Any attacks with small Rosharan forces could be overwhelmed in short order by the weapons, magic, and tactics of Scadrians. The melee tactics of Roshar are history to Scadiral so are easily anticipated and countered, but Roshar has never seen anything like the tactics Scadrial would use.

No they aren't Scadrial has never dealt with Shards, and the powers the Rosharans have are far beyond them, they haven't practiced war in over three hundred years, even our moddern police forces which are much better equiped wouldn't be able to hanndle a single oath four, and even the US Military would be hard pressed to fight one.

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Odds are that when the conflict actually takes place Scadrial will be in the position of being able to orbitally bombard Roshar and space will be so populated so as to vastly increase the distances of travel in the CR.

CR travel distance will not increase in any dramatic fashion,

And Roshar isn't far behind Scadrial in space travel, and in fact are several decades ahead.

35 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Larkins do almost immediately strip all the void light from Fused though effectively rendering them powerless. Oh and fast is a relative term not a definitive limit. You know a nicroburst might cause a thunderclast to explode and then the spen would be disabled for a time. To avoid injury use a primer cube grenade for the affect from cover.

Saying a nicroburst could cause a thunderclast to explode is like saying they will instantly kill a human as they burn up their soul, it's wrong.

[The Technovore]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

You also keep assuming that there will be many available Radiants, but at this time the Spren in general don't want to bond anyone and even an increase in their number doesn't guarantee a large number would bond anyone.

Yes, yes we are. We established multiple times that we're assuming a United Roshar and a United Scadrial, to keep things simple. Otherwise, you're dealing with complicated geopolitics for both planets and an interplanetary war. That makes things complicated for both planets and is generally no fun.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Since Rosharans are enslaving Spren wholesale when they can there is the distinct possiblity that the existing spren would choose to bond with Scadrian invaders to end the wholesale slavery.

Cool, let's start talking about all the Metalborn that can defect to Roshar and potentially help them figure out the anti-light equivalent to the mists!

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

If there are only about 100 metalborn who could take a 4th oath Radiant then it is a good thing there are only 3 Radiants of that oath thus far and no guarantee of there being more.

Two inconvenient facts:

1. RoW happens 5 to 10 years before Alloy of Law. Kaladin went from proto Radiant to Oath 4 in about 3. There are some 200 other Radiants currently progressing. You're looking--conservatively--at about 100 Oath 4 Radiants.

2. Adolin's entire story arc in RoW was ensuring that were absolutely would be more Radiants.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

A thunderclast can also be dealt with by trapping the Voidspren in an aluminum cage or net either before they form the thunderclast or after demolishing the stone body. Oh and they only form a stone body if there is stone to form it from and they seem to be exceedingly rare. They also need time to form the stone body so forming in the Scadrian camp is a recipe for being demolished before they finish. Draining stormlight from the Spren also effectively disables it.

Can you point out to me a place in Roshar or Scadrial that is completely and utterly devoid of stone? The funny thing about planets suitable for human life is that they generally have a crust made from rock.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I was siting related abilities from a different universe, but one that Brandon used as a basis to his allomancy. The mechanics of emotional allomancy allow for a form of battle meditation in the Cosmere. You think a  Zinc compounder commander would be working alone? No. They would be able to get the intelligence nessisary to determine where and when Rosharan's were massing for battle and direct fire at the optimal time to break them up. Any attacks with small Rosharan forces could be overwhelmed in short order by the weapons, magic, and tactics of Scadrians. The melee tactics of Roshar are history to Scadiral so are easily anticipated and countered, but Roshar has never seen anything like the tactics Scadrial would use.

 

Okay, this is a fair point, actually. Scadrian's have access to an ability that can make anyone a super genius, and abilities that make for wonderful spies and scouts. However, this is ignoring the fact that Rosharans also have tactical geniuses, also have Realmatic geniuses, and also are capable of spying and strategizing. I think Scadrial would edge them out in the tactics and laymen weapons department, but do not assume that Rosharans are bumbling fools that wouldn't be hitting them hard and adapting too.

Again: Roshar has 5 to 10 years to advance in tech and tactics. Assuming United Roshar, that means the full R&D might of a Urithiru where ancient Singers, Heralds, and humans are working together. It's not like we're literally sending WoK-style spear formations at them.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I get your loyalty to the Rosharans and the surface advantage you and others have for them, but you still haven't been able to convince me that the surface advantages or Roshar translate to an actual decisive advantage on their part over Scadrians. Please don't mistake me. I can see how each side could leverage an advantage temporarily over the other, just not decisively so overall. I don't expect to be able to convince all of you of that. I choose to side with Scadrial because no one else seems to want to.

My loyalty? I have no loyalty, except to the (fictional fantasy universe lol) facts. The accusation of bias--while gently and humbly delivered props for that--is somewhat laughable in the face of your willingness to afford Scadrial every advantage including asserting that a significant population of rifleman are going to even remotely resemble Wax. I've said it before--this isn't supposed to be a "Roshar good, Scadrial bad" discussion or the other way around. It was supposed to be a hypothetical scenario to play with ideas and conflicting magic systems and see who we think would ultimately have the advantage. If you feel Scadrial isn't being represented, why not bring up the "Hemalurgic Fullborn abomination" scenario that's been brought up? A United Scadrial actually has the power to make Fullborn. That argument alone ended the last S v R thread, why don't we talk about that? Instead we're grasping at straws, floundering about, and ignoring the canon of the books repeatedly in a floundering attempt to assert that Metalborn should be able to slap Radiants around like ragdolls when no intellectually honest and sufficiently read individual would even entertain the notion.

End Rant.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by The Technovore
tonal edits

[BenduLuke]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes a tank dropped in the middle of pre ww1 forces isn't garunteed to be almost unstopable, uh, no, they will destroy.

There will be far more Windrunners/skybreakers than there are Coinshots, and flying ships would take years to build but could be destroyed in seconds

I never mentioned a Tank that would come later.

It doesn't matter if you think the numbers favor Windrunners/Skybreakers over Coinshots. A you don't know that will be the case, and B it is not just coinshots that they need to worry about.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Elendel basin is on the verge of civil war, and north and south don't trust each other, I think it's best for you to assume both sides are unified, as Roshar is a lot closer to that than Scadrial is. I also find it ammusing you think Scadrial needs Rosharan magic to beat Roshar.

No that has been resolved.

No it is a weakness of Rosharan magic that it can be co-opted by anyone.

Given the current situations it is more likely that Roshar is divided so making an assumption of unity is naive especially given the warlike nature of both the Alethi and Odium.

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They can go through the ground beneath them and fly how do you propose to trap them in a box? And a net wouldn't work.

Break their dirt bodies first since they are surrounded. Nothing says there will be rock to form the body from.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There are plenty of Thunderclast.

Draining Stormlight won't do anything, neither will draining Voidlight, and they make bodies almost instantly.

You don't know that. Any of it.

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Saying that they would take more force when moving towards them asumes they get hit, which vastly decreases the faster they go. And no, an ordinary marksmen isn't shooting bullets out of the air, with enough accuracy to hit something around a corner. That is supperhuman

Thousands of bullets and flack, of course they will be hit, and most wont have armor. Even the ones that do it will be a source of stormlight loss because of impacts if not entirely ineffective against some projectiles.

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

highly doubt it will be possible to use medalions to become fullborn. In fact I'd go so far as to say inpossible.

In order to burn the nicrocil you need to be a nicroburst, so that is your allomantic metal, but medalions contain two metals that you need to use so you would have to be able to burn both of them something you can't do, esspecially since you can only use one medallion at a time.

Mistborn are non-existent and evern in era three they will be rare, Brandon isn't putting something in that can make any random non into a fullborn.

Sorry I don't think you have thought this through and I disagree. You actually only need one medallion at a time to become a Fullborn if the first medallion grants Nicrosil compounding.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No they aren't Scadrial has never dealt with Shards, and the powers the Rosharans have are far beyond them, they haven't practiced war in over three hundred years, even our moddern police forces which are much better equiped wouldn't be able to hanndle a single oath four, and even the US Military would be hard pressed to fight one.

Dealing with shards makes no difference since Roshar has practiced archaic war not modern war. They are not equivalent. Tsun Tsu's army would be wiped out in short order by Sherman's battalion. There really is no comparison. Only later would Rosharans start to get up to speed. You are overestimating Rosharan Magic, weapons, and tactics.

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Saying a nicroburst could cause a thunderclast to explode is like saying they will instantly kill a human as they burn up their soul, it's wrong

No its more like what happened with the light, anti-light in the gemstone. I thought that was obvious. Another thing I thought was obvious was that the stunning of the Spren would be caused by the massive surge followed by no void light at all. At which point they are very vulnerable to capture at the very least. One other weakness to Thunderclasts is the material at hand. Maybe that is why we have seen them so seldom.

Your loyalty and bias toward Roshar is admirable if misplaced. honestly I would have skipped responding to you like I have been for days if I didn't have time on my hands and if someone else had responded. I would have skipped it not because you have particularly insightful arguments, but just the opposite. At least the runner and Technivore among others force me to consider how to respond and frequently bring up challenging points even if I don't always see eye to eye with them. Really though you thought this discussion was out of ideas and yet you still respond to me. You keep saying the same things, and think that proves your bias.

2 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Yes, yes we are. We established multiple times that we're assuming a United Roshar and a United Scadrial, to keep things simple. Otherwise, you're dealing with complicated geopolitics for both planets and an interplanetary war. That makes things complicated for both planets and is generally no fun.

Yes but what shape will the united Roshar be in. You cannot assume it will simply consist of a merger of the current forces. You can assume that Scadrial might because their political situation appears to be mostly resolve or at least on the verge of it.

5 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Cool, let's start talking about all the Metalborn that can defect to Roshar and potentially help them figure out the anti-light equivalent to the mists!

Aluminum is the anti-metalborn answer. Of course it is also a general response to investiture as well. Metalborn don't need the mists to operate so anti-mists are kind of a non starter. It is the difference between stormlight and metal. one is a powersource, and the other is a bridge so what works for one wont necessarily work for the other, except Aluminum.

9 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Two inconvenient facts:

1. RoW happens 5 to 10 years before Alloy of Law. Kaladin went from proto Radiant to Oath 4 in about 3. There are some 200 other Radiants currently progressing. You're looking--conservatively--at about 100 Oath 4 Radiants.

2. Adolin's entire story arc in RoW was ensuring that were absolutely would be more Radiants.

Kaladin could very well be the exception since there are only 2 modern 4th oath Radiants and it has been stated that Higher oath radiants were few in the past compared to the total numbers. Again that was a relative statement so doesn't define specific limits. For now 4th oath radiants are about 1/100 if your estimate of total Radiants is accurate. I suspect Shallon with be 4th oath soon which will make it 1/70.

The developments in RoW also potentially insures a drastic decline in the Spren population.

16 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Can you point out to me a place in Roshar or Scadrial that is completely and utterly devoid of stone? The funny thing about planets suitable for human life is that they generally have a crust made from rock.

Not all rock is equal or structurally durable, and thunderclasts are limited to the available materials.

17 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Okay, this is a fair point, actually. Scadrian's have access to an ability that can make anyone a super genius, and abilities that make for wonderful spies and scouts. However, this is ignoring the fact that Rosharans also have tactical geniuses, also have Realmatic geniuses, and also are capable of spying and strategizing. I think Scadrial would edge them out in the tactics and laymen weapons department, but do not assume that Rosharans are bumbling fools that wouldn't be hitting them hard and adapting too.

Again: Roshar has 5 to 10 years to advance in tech and tactics. Assuming United Roshar, that means the full R&D might of a Urithiru where ancient Singers, Heralds, and humans are working together. It's not like we're literally sending WoK-style spear formations at them.

Yes potentially tactical geniuses in medievil warfare, but that doesn't compare to late 19th and early 20th century tactics. the differences in Tech is not 5-10 years but centuries. The difference in timeline is 5-10 years. Not the same. With their military focus Roshar could probably get up to speed quicker than other cultures, but would experience drastic losses in the beginning, and Scadrians wouldn't stop advancing as well.

23 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

My loyalty? I have no loyalty, except to the (fictional fantasy universe lol) facts. The accusation of bias--while gently and humbly delivered props for that--is somewhat laughable in the face of your willingness to afford Scadrial every advantage including asserting that a significant population of rifleman are going to even remotely resemble Wax. I've said it before--this isn't supposed to be a "Roshar good, Scadrial bad" discussion or the other way around. It was supposed to be a hypothetical scenario to play with ideas and conflicting magic systems and see who we think would ultimately have the advantage. If you feel Scadrial isn't being represented, why not bring up the "Hemalurgic Fullborn abomination" scenario that's been brought up? A United Scadrial actually has the power to make Fullborn. That argument alone ended the last S v R thread, why don't we talk about that? Instead we're grasping at straws, floundering about, and ignoring the canon of the books repeatedly in a floundering attempt to assert that Metalborn should be able to slap Radiants around like ragdolls when no intellectually honest and sufficiently read individual would even entertain the notion.

End Rant.

You will notice my own implied bias in the statement which I have chosen because I think Scadrial has been under represented. In actual fact I think this would be a nasty near equal contest with terrible casualties on both sides. From this time forward even Spren and Fused can be utterly destroyed not just become dead eyes or insane. I don't ignore the books cannon I just don't always agree with what others think is cannon. I really don't think metalborn would slap Radiants around like ragdolls, but I don't think the inverse is true either. Since I see a lack of that perspective I choose to focus on ways metalborn and Scadrians could challenge Radiants.

First before we address the potential to create fullborn in era 2 let me address one of the supposed uber Radiant attacks. It has been stated by some that a bondsmith might be able to steal the bond from a metalborn, but because mistings and ferrings abilities don't rely on bonds for their magic like Radiants do don't think there would be a bond for a bondsmith to steal.

Because of the nature of the abilities of a Nicrosil compounder to be able to store pure investiture there is the potential for them to become a full born. First they would need to get medallions (avoid hemalugy because of the spirit holes it creates) for each of the metal arts which you might need as few as 6 to 8 of each can store up to 3 powers. After the N-C stores each ability they compound that ability to gain both power and duration of its use. Then they do the same with each other medallion. Once they have stored and compounded each of the metalborn abilities they can then proceed to add the other 30 metalmind to compound those for both duration and power and stock up on those same metals for allomancy. It would be easiest to start with a N-C, but might be achieved using a Nicrosil compounder medallion as well.

As a fullborn the N-C would be able to compound but would miss out on other forms of resonance that normal twins might develop. They might also need to be using 2 power at once to access their full adopted abilities. The limit to their degree of ability would be the storage capacity of their many metalminds and the sever leaning to really use those powers most effectively singly and in combination. The more likely situation to using Nicrosil this way would be squads of complimentary twinborn where they can become masters of specific abilities instead of a Jack of Trades of abilities. Any fullborn might want to master being a sparker first, followed by a slider to give them time to plan how to use their abilities most effectively on the verge of combat. Aluminum even for a fullborn would still be a potential problem, and perhaps more so. I think we will see aluminum cuffs in era 3 because it can potentially cause metalborn problems and inhibit their abilities. I think a fullborn created this way could fight at a 4th oath radiant to a draw and depending on what we 5th oaths able to do maybe them too in one on one combat. The balance might be tipped by any additional factors for either.

I have shied away from hemalurgy for the same reason Hoid does. Too much downside for the power. Where a bondsmith might not affect other metalborn, they would almost certainly destroy a hemalurgic abomination which is why Harmony probably wont use Marsh in any conflict. Any Radiant who dared to use Hemalurgy would be increasingly vulnerable to being controlled and destroyed. I did think about it though. It is likely that only an aluminum compounder could use hemalurgy to their advantage to become a fullborn because they have the potential to erase any spirit holes created by the process while permanently adding connections to the various powers into their identity so might not become a hemalugic abomination. Thanks for the hemalurgic abomination mention though. Medallion method is safer and potentially more effective.

Assuming that I haven't read or haven't sufficiently read to come to my own conclusions as to what is and is not cannon is also disingenuous. I don't think I have accused any of you of not following cannon in the books only in disagreeing with me on what is cannon or more often in over emphasizing some potentials while underplaying others. In response I have chosen to strongly emphasize some counter potentials while downplaying others.

Thanks for the fullborn challenge. I suppose we could go into more specifics on how a fullborn would fare against the current ultimate Radiant. It would probably still come down to whether one or the other could arrange the situation to their advantage not to who has more powerful magic. Even the smallest thing could probably tip the scales in a fight at that level and I hate to consider the collateral damage that would be involved. That fight might make a great case study of the magics. Even how the fullborn was created would likely affect the contest. Of course that also opens the potential to squads of varied metaborn and squads of varied Radiants clashing. The learning curve for a created fullborn would be huge.

[Frustration]

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I never mentioned a Tank that would come later.

It doesn't matter if you think the numbers favor Windrunners/Skybreakers over Coinshots. A you don't know that will be the case, and B it is not just coinshots that they need to worry about.

A platted Radiant is basically a tank.

I do know it will be the case, we went zero to fifty full Radiants in about a year and a half, and with Adolin's plotline that number will only go up. And that's without the Skybreakers.

Meanwhile Coinshots are rare, we saw only a small handfull, not entire regiments.

And what will be the problem? the airships that can be put out of commition in a hundreth of time it takes to make?

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No that has been resolved.

How?

It has not the outer cities still do not trust Elendel and the basin is not a cohesive nation, just city states.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No it is a weakness of Rosharan magic that it can be co-opted by anyone.

Any magic system can be co-opted by anyone, and the metalic arts are easier to steal.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Given the current situations it is more likely that Roshar is divided so making an assumption of unity is naive especially given the warlike nature of both the Alethi and Odium.

Really?

Coalition is working just fine for Radiant Nations,

Odium's Nations are unified,

With Maya's revelation Spren will come around etc.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Break their dirt bodies first since they are surrounded. Nothing says there will be rock to form the body from.

The fact that there is a planet says there will be rock, do you think it's just soil all the way to the mantel?

And they couldn't make bodies of dirt

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Thousands of bullets and flack, of course they will be hit, and most wont have armor. Even the ones that do it will be a source of stormlight loss because of impacts if not entirely ineffective against some projectiles.

 A few Scadrians will not be able to shoot thousands of bullets in that time, that would require hundreds. And then there will be multiple Radiants so they can't all focus on one.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You don't know that. Any of it.

Oh really?

Are there plenty of them?

Yes we see them all over in the past Kholinar, Kalak's battle, at Theylan's field, and that time only the weaker of Odium's forces had come, do you think there are only a few of them? Really? A corrupted Spren brought one as an escourt, you don't do that with scares weapons.

Can they hold storm/voidlight?

no, no gem heart, so obviously it isn't dependednt on light.

Make bodies almost instantly, Yes we see that.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Sorry I don't think you have thought this through and I disagree. You actually only need one medallion at a time to become a Fullborn if the first medallion grants Nicrosil compounding.

How? There are two metals and you need both, Wax specifically notices this and Brandon has unintentionally confirmed https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9579   https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247 

Additionally Medallions are more restirctive than the actual feruchemy https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11519

There are liekly additional restrictions https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13353

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Dealing with shards makes no difference since Roshar has practiced archaic war not modern war. They are not equivalent. Tsun Tsu's army would be wiped out in short order by Sherman's battalion. There really is no comparison. Only later would Rosharans start to get up to speed. You are overestimating Rosharan Magic, weapons, and tactics.

Dealing with Shards makes no difference?

Really?

A man who can survive multiple bullets without being scratched changes eerything

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Your loyalty and bias toward Roshar is admirable if misplaced. honestly I would have skipped responding to you like I have been for days if I didn't have time on my hands and if someone else had responded. I would have skipped it not because you have particularly insightful arguments, but just the opposite. At least the runner and Technivore among others force me to consider how to respond and frequently bring up challenging points even if I don't always see eye to eye with them. Really though you thought this discussion was out of ideas and yet you still respond to me. You keep saying the same things, and think that proves your bias.

My loyalty is towards Roshar? I like it more enough to ignore factual evidence no.

You accuse me of repeating points but ignore yourself? I can find posts from months ago of you saying the same thing you are now. You ignore the closest thing we have to cannon in exchange for what suits your oppinions. The only thing I reppeat are the fact you refuse to acknowledge

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

First before we address the potential to create fullborn in era 2 let me address one of the supposed uber Radiant attacks. It has been stated by some that a bondsmith might be able to steal the bond from a metalborn, but because mistings and ferrings abilities don't rely on bonds for their magic like Radiants do don't think there would be a bond for a bondsmith to steal.

 It's not about being a bond, it's about being Connection, if it is they can steal it, and even if not they can seriously mess up someone's soul

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Because of the nature of the abilities of a Nicrosil compounder to be able to store pure investiture there is the potential for them to become a full born. First they would need to get medallions (avoid hemalugy because of the spirit holes it creates) for each of the metal arts which you might need as few as 6 to 8 of each can store up to 3 powers. After the N-C stores each ability they compound that ability to gain both power and duration of its use. Then they do the same with each other medallion. Once they have stored and compounded each of the metalborn abilities they can then proceed to add the other 30 metalmind to compound those for both duration and power and stock up on those same metals for allomancy. It would be easiest to start with a N-C, but might be achieved using a Nicrosil compounder medallion as well.

It's the second metal you need to worry about.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Frustration

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You also keep assuming that there will be many available Radiants, but at this time the Spren in general don't want to bond anyone and even an increase in their number doesn't guarantee a large number would bond anyone. Since Rosharans are enslaving Spren wholesale when they can there is the distinct possiblity that the existing spren would choose to bond with Scadrian invaders to end the wholesale slavery.

Yes, generally these conversations assume a united planet. Unless you would like us to assume Roshar can:

• Learn and use Hemalurgy to give a Dustbringer or Edgedancer twin-steel + A-chromium to make a horrifyingly effective killing machine with massive stockpiles of metal thanks to Soulcasting. After all, Hemalurgy is open to everyone even more than Surgebinding is, and as long as they keep below 4 spikes, they should be fine.
• Learn how to make and use medallions
• Learn how to make and use Bands of Mourning-esque objects
• Either intercept or win over people involved with ettmetal and use it for either Leecher cubes or (very theoretically, no book backing for this) even Surge cubes
  • Even better: they can combine ettmetal with spren fabrials to form devices such as Leecher-painrial grenades capable of draining and incapacitating Metalborn nearby
• Convince, bribe, or coerce the very very very few Twinborn capable of posing any threat into joining them (there's what, five total of the real dangerous types combined at any given time, maybe?)

Additionally, Scadrial better hope we're assuming united planets, considering:

• The North is on the brink of civil war, and this has not been solved, and in fact is probably worse after Bands considering they think Wax killed Kelesina:

Quote

Aradel shook his head in awe, eyes wide. “Well, maybe this will distract everyone from the disaster you all started in New Seran.”
“Bad?” Steris asked.

Aradel grunted. “Senate’s had my balls over the fire for two days straight, screaming about war and irresponsible leadership. As if I ever had any influence over you people.” He started, finally ripping his gaze from the airship, and coughed—as if realizing what he’d just said, and whom he’d said it to.

• The South is fighting the "Deniers" (which they are worried enough about to seek out the Bands of Mourning to fight)
• The North and South have hardly any relationship of any kind besides initial drafts of hypothetical trade agreements made by a few lone people that neither government has even had a look at yet, much less approved, and certainly not any close military alliance

[therunner]

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I never mentioned a Tank that would come later.

The tank here is Radiant in plate.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No that has been resolved.

No it has not, NoScad is still mostly composed of independent city states that resent Elendel for their control and oversight, and want to break free (hmm, maybe someone could bribe them...) and SoScad is composed of multiple tribes that are sometimes fighting with one another. And of course SoScad and NoScad have next to no contact, and per Brandon will only become important again in Era 3 (so we have at least ~30-50 years before they establish any sort of permanent contact).

It would be nice if you imposed criteria you have changed on Scadrial as well, because unless you assume unity Scadrial has no medallions, any knowledge of hemalurgy to speak of, and Terris people still control most of Ferrings so they would probably prohibit them from taking part in war (see how they react to Wax and he is grandson of effectively their leader). I.e. under your new assumptions Scadrial looses most of the Ferrings (hence also compounders and F-steel), all medallions, most of knowledge of Hemalurgy (because only Set and Kandra seem to know, and neither would share) and Scadrian army would be much smaller (because not all city states would be willing to join war and a lot of people not living in the city also).

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Given the current situations it is more likely that Roshar is divided so making an assumption of unity is naive especially given the warlike nature of both the Alethi and Odium.

Roshar is currently composed of two major sides (Coalition, Odium's forces) and few smaller ones (Shin, some smaller independent states,independent Singers, unaligned spren (but those are mostly leaning towards alliance)), and the two major ones are each larger than even unified Scadrial (which is of course not united under your assumptions).

And you could quickly convince Odium to join the war against Scadrial, just get him an oath to release him under the condition that he will lend his forces to fight against Scadrial, Odium would jump at this chance.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Break their dirt bodies first since they are surrounded. Nothing says there will be rock to form the body from.

Rhetorical question, do you know what planet looks like? Bedrock is somewhere between 100 to 500 feet deep on average, so on planet with soil comparable to earth Thunderclast would need to dig themselves out (which they could, it would just take minute or two), or someone can soulcast ground into stone and use that.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Thousands of bullets and flack, of course they will be hit, and most wont have armor. Even the ones that do it will be a source of stormlight loss because of impacts if not entirely ineffective against some projectiles.

What flack? Flack explodes at set height before hand, and Radiant can change height by 50 meters under two seconds, more than enough to avoid it. And what thousands of bullets? To drop 500 meters (your stated number on effective range of rifle shooting) would take them ~6 seconds, in that time most rifle man could take two shots at best (and since they would have to adjust their aiming by ~45-30 degrees they would most likely fail to take the second shot), and they would need to be less then 250 meters away from intended drop point of Radiant. So unless you have at least 500 riflemen ready inside a circle with radius 250 meters, you will not even squeeze out one thousand shots.

Of course you also assume

1. That there is one Radiant dropping not multiple.
2. That all the bullets and all the shrapnel is aluminum, metal that is expansive enough that nobleman cannot easily make weapons out of it. Because if the bullets and shrapnel are not aluminum, reverse lashing simply makes them hit off target.
3. That Radiant start attack before disabling at least some weapons of Scadrial, be it by soulcasting from CR, or by dropping few 100 kg rocks first from 2-3 km high or by having Thunderclast attack at similar time.

And you accuse others of bias?

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Dealing with shards makes no difference since Roshar has practiced archaic war not modern war. They are not equivalent. Tsun Tsu's army would be wiped out in short order by Sherman's battalion. There really is no comparison. Only later would Rosharans start to get up to speed. You are overestimating Rosharan Magic, weapons, and tactics.

And Scadrial has practiced no war for three centuries, so they have no tactics or strategy to speak of, and no idea how to use what little weapons they have truly effectively.

Sun Tzu's army also did not have flying siege platforms with swords that cut through anything like butter, and people that can heal severed spines, lost arms, or bullet/arrows to the head.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No its more like what happened with the light, anti-light in the gemstone. I thought that was obvious. Another thing I thought was obvious was that the stunning of the Spren would be caused by the massive surge followed by no void light at all. At which point they are very vulnerable to capture at the very least. One other weakness to Thunderclasts is the material at hand. Maybe that is why we have seen them so seldom.

The only thing nicroburst would affect would be voidlight (if they have any), it would look nothing like light/anti-light reaction. It would look more like having duralumiin pewter, i.e. you would not notice much, only that your voidlight is gone and maybe some emotional effect? But their soul would remain unaffected.

And is Scadrial keeping hyper mobile aluminum cages the size of Thunderclast on hand in every camp? Or to be more specified reinforced ones so that the rock monster cannot smash out?

We have seen so few because Odium's forces seem to coming with youngers/weakers first, and Thunderclasts are among the oldest ones. Even then we have seen two within first few months of Desolation starting, and they are plentiful enough to give them as escort to single spren (per Dalinar's vision).

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes but what shape will the united Roshar be in. You cannot assume it will simply consist of a merger of the current forces. You can assume that Scadrial might because their political situation appears to be mostly resolve or at least on the verge of it.

You can easily bribe Odium to join war against Scadrial, just promise to release him if he does so and to help him splinter/take up another Shard. Ta-da, Coalition and Odium's forces are now joined

Scadrial's situation is far from resolved (even just Elendel basin politics issues) and SoScad and NoScad are far from anything even remotely resembling alliance. So either stop saying we cannot assume united Roshar, or stop assuming united Scadrial. To put it simply, use the same standards for Roshar and for Scadrial.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Your loyalty and bias toward Roshar is admirable if misplaced. honestly I would have skipped responding to you like I have been for days if I didn't have time on my hands and if someone else had responded. I would have skipped it not because you have particularly insightful arguments, but just the opposite. At least the runner and Technivore among others force me to consider how to respond and frequently bring up challenging points even if I don't always see eye to eye with them. Really though you thought this discussion was out of ideas and yet you still respond to me. You keep saying the same things, and think that proves your bias.

Stop accusing other of bias, when you yourself are using different standard for Roshar and Scadrial (and said so yourself), which is quite literally bias.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum is the anti-metalborn answer. Of course it is also a general response to investiture as well. Metalborn don't need the mists to operate so anti-mists are kind of a non starter. It is the difference between stormlight and metal. one is a powersource, and the other is a bridge so what works for one wont necessarily work for the other, except Aluminum.

Yes, metal is bridge to power of Preservation/Harmony, which is exactly the same thing as mists. I.e. stab someone burning metals or actively tapping/storing with anit-mists dagger and you will kill them or severely harm them.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Kaladin could very well be the exception since there are only 2 modern 4th oath Radiants and it has been stated that Higher oath radiants were few in the past compared to the total numbers. Again that was a relative statement so doesn't define specific limits. For now 4th oath radiants are about 1/100 if your estimate of total Radiants is accurate. I suspect Shallon with be 4th oath soon which will make it 1/70.

There are multiple third oath Windrunners ready and Kaladin fears they are not swearing the fourth out of respect for him, Teft was in process of swearing fourth ideal when his spren was killed (and so before Kaladin) and there are much more than 300 radiants in the coalition forces, there are just 300 Windrunners.

And in the past there were literally hundreds of Radiants in plate in each order, it is the fifth Oath that is very rare.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You will notice my own implied bias in the statement which I have chosen because I think Scadrial has been under represented. In actual fact I think this would be a nasty near equal contest with terrible casualties on both sides. From this time forward even Spren and Fused can be utterly destroyed not just become dead eyes or insane. I don't ignore the books cannon I just don't always agree with what others think is cannon. I really don't think metalborn would slap Radiants around like ragdolls, but I don't think the inverse is true either. Since I see a lack of that perspective I choose to focus on ways metalborn and Scadrians could challenge Radiants.

Except that Scadrial has no tools to kill Spren or Fused, only Roshar does.

3rd Oath Windrunner would kill Mistborn in open battle, so 4th Oath one would slap Mistborn in open battle. How many metalborn are stronger than mistborn? Full feruchemists, F-steel ferrings with good weapons, and what else?

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

First before we address the potential to create fullborn in era 2 let me address one of the supposed uber Radiant attacks. It has been stated by some that a bondsmith might be able to steal the bond from a metalborn, but because mistings and ferrings abilities don't rely on bonds for their magic like Radiants do don't think there would be a bond for a bondsmith to steal.

Bondsmiths manipulate Connection not bonds, and burning metal creates connection to spiritual realm (so this can be manipulated) and Ferrings need connection to their metalminds (so this can be taken away). They could also connect them to ground, so any power that tries to affect Mistings/Ferrings body would try to affect ground as well and quickly burn out (like what Ishar did).

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Because of the nature of the abilities of a Nicrosil compounder to be able to store pure investiture there is the potential for them to become a full born. First they would need to get medallions (avoid hemalugy because of the spirit holes it creates) for each of the metal arts which you might need as few as 6 to 8 of each can store up to 3 powers. After the N-C stores each ability they compound that ability to gain both power and duration of its use. Then they do the same with each other medallion. Once they have stored and compounded each of the metalborn abilities they can then proceed to add the other 30 metalmind to compound those for both duration and power and stock up on those same metals for allomancy. It would be easiest to start with a N-C, but might be achieved using a Nicrosil compounder medallion as well.

If you are really arguing we cannot assume united Roshar, then you cannot assume that NoScad will have access to medallions.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

As a fullborn the N-C would be able to compound but would miss out on other forms of resonance that normal twins might develop. They might also need to be using 2 power at once to access their full adopted abilities. The limit to their degree of ability would be the storage capacity of their many metalminds and the sever leaning to really use those powers most effectively singly and in combination. The more likely situation to using Nicrosil this way would be squads of complimentary twinborn where they can become masters of specific abilities instead of a Jack of Trades of abilities. Any fullborn might want to master being a sparker first, followed by a slider to give them time to plan how to use their abilities most effectively on the verge of combat. Aluminum even for a fullborn would still be a potential problem, and perhaps more so. I think we will see aluminum cuffs in era 3 because it can potentially cause metalborn problems and inhibit their abilities. I think a fullborn created this way could fight at a 4th oath radiant to a draw and depending on what we 5th oaths able to do maybe them too in one on one combat. The balance might be tipped by any additional factors for either.

Even if it worked like this (and I really don't think Nicrosil will work like this), you could disable them with suppressor just like anyone else. Although trapping Fullborn like that would still be risky proposition

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I have shied away from hemalurgy for the same reason Hoid does. Too much downside for the power. Where a bondsmith might not affect other metalborn, they would almost certainly destroy a hemalurgic abomination which is why Harmony probably wont use Marsh in any conflict. Any Radiant who dared to use Hemalurgy would be increasingly vulnerable to being controlled and destroyed. I did think about it though. It is likely that only an aluminum compounder could use hemalurgy to their advantage to become a fullborn because they have the potential to erase any spirit holes created by the process while permanently adding connections to the various powers into their identity so might not become a hemalugic abomination. Thanks for the hemalurgic abomination mention though. Medallion method is safer and potentially more effective.

If Aluminum twin erases the hole, they also remove their hemalurgic powers (as they are 'stapled' on the soul, i.e. they are foreign investiture, the very thing A-aluminum removes). So no, they could not become H-fullborn without downsides (and this also ignores the fact that beyond 4 spikes you start seeing physical and spiritual deformations, so you are no longer human) since neither A- nor F-aluminum lets you pick and choose what to keep and what the power removes.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Thanks for the fullborn challenge. I suppose we could go into more specifics on how a fullborn would fare against the current ultimate Radiant. It would probably still come down to whether one or the other could arrange the situation to their advantage not to who has more powerful magic. Even the smallest thing could probably tip the scales in a fight at that level and I hate to consider the collateral damage that would be involved. That fight might make a great case study of the magics. Even how the fullborn was created would likely affect the contest. Of course that also opens the potential to squads of varied metaborn and squads of varied Radiants clashing. The learning curve for a created fullborn would be huge.

There is not that much to think about, Fullborn wins against pretty much any Radiant. They heal just as well, can be just as strong as Radiant in plate, they don't tire, they don't need to eat or drink, they have compounded Chromium (which will be useful no matter what exactly it does) and they have F-steel. They will kill Radiant in less than a second.

The only chance someone from Roshar would have is to trick them into entering suppresor field, and then attack them with everything they have (or soulcast them into a cage and let them die there).

If it is not natural fullborn, you could also try to use soulcasting fueled by Bondsmith from CR to remove either medallions or spikes or metalminds, but you would still need to keep the Fullborn in one place long enough.

Edited May 23, 2021 by therunner
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[DoctaDajman]

Sorry if this has been stated once or... a million times before.  I just found this thread and am only on page 4.   

In regards to the projectiles argument...   While a bendalloy bubble does change trajectory of a projectile I dont imagine it changes it so much that a mistborn couldn't open a bubble at a small distance (even if it was only an opening of a second from the radiants perspective) and then unload every projectile they have.   Even if a few were to go far wide you would be able to see which ones were going to hit and then give those specific projectiles duralumin charged steel pushes. This would of course drop the bubble but those projectiles are still going to land and you will also be yeeting yourself to a distance where you could chug another vial anyways.   Then if any of them do manage to get inside the plate (even if the plate were to repair itself) you now have a piece of metal or pieces of metal that can be manipulated from inside your opponents defense.  

 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, DoctaDajman said:

Sorry if this has been stated once or... a million times before.  I just found this thread and am only on page 4.   

In regards to the projectiles argument...   While a bendalloy bubble does change trajectory of a projectile I dont imagine it changes it so much that a mistborn couldn't open a bubble at a small distance (even if it was only an opening of a second from the radiants perspective) and then unload every projectile they have.   Even if a few were to go far wide you would be able to see which ones were going to hit and then give those specific projectiles duralumin charged steel pushes. This would of course drop the bubble but those projectiles are still going to land and you will also be yeeting yourself to a distance where you could chug another vial anyways.   Then if any of them do manage to get inside the plate (even if the plate were to repair itself) you now have a piece of metal or pieces of metal that can be manipulated from inside your opponents defense.  

Plate would block the manipulation, but that is a viable tactic

[DoctaDajman]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Plate would block the manipulation, but that is a viable tactic

So this is sort of besides the point as I just need some clarification.  Does plate block it just due to the amount of investiture there?   I know there are substances and pieces of investiture that basically nullify use of the systems like aluminum.  In the alloy of law wax mentioned that if you just mixed aluminum with another metal it would still act like aluminum in as far as making it immune to pushes.  (Hence all the aluminum guns and bullets).   Is there an alloy using aluminum that could withstand a few strikes from a shardblade?   And if there is an alloy that would nullify the edge of a shardblade wouldn't it be fair to say that same alloy could damage shardplate as if it weren't invested at all?   Straight up I haven't even read way of kings yet.  I just love the world building and am asking for clarification vs the rest of this thread.  I am lame and can't help myself looking at spoilers and reading the wikis and forums for topics like this.  

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

So this is sort of besides the point as I just need some clarification.  Does plate block it just due to the amount of investiture there?   I know there are substances and pieces of investiture that basically nullify use of the systems like aluminum.  In the alloy of law wax mentioned that if you just mixed aluminum with another metal it would still act like aluminum in as far as making it immune to pushes.  (Hence all the aluminum guns and bullets).   Is there an alloy using aluminum that could withstand a few strikes from a shardblade?   And if there is an alloy that would nullify the edge of a shardblade wouldn't it be fair to say that same alloy could damage shardplate as if it weren't invested at all?   Straight up I haven't even read way of kings yet.  I just love the world building and am asking for clarification vs the rest of this thread.  I am lame and can't help myself looking at spoilers and reading the wikis and forums for topics like this.  

Shardplate would block it due to it's investiture, just like how you can't push on something that's inside someone's body.

Aluminum wouldn't break plate any easier because it doesn't take away other powers it's just immune itself.

[DoctaDajman]

50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Shardplate would block it due to it's investiture, just like how you can't push on something that's inside someone's body.

Aluminum wouldn't break plate any easier because it doesn't take away other powers it's just immune itself.

I know a normal mistborn even in Vin's time couldn't replicate this but the lord ruler was able to push on the metal in her stomach.  Even wax says its not impossible it just gets harder the more invested something is.   And that is generations down the road.  Could a first generation mistborn made from larasium be able to do it?   And if larasium were to be brought into play it also significantly increases the allomantic powers of a mistborn.  I wonder how much (God metal so take it for what its worth) larasium it would take to super charge a mistborn to a point of being able to duralumin charge steel and iron to affect shardplate if at all.  Not to mention pewter usage would bring it to or beyond that of shardplate.   

 

I definately see a lot of what ifs needing to be stacked in order to form the perfect mistborn for a fight like this.  Where as the shardplate and shardblades definately sound pretty busted op.   

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I know a normal mistborn even in Vin's time couldn't replicate this but the lord ruler was able to push on the metal in her stomach.  Even wax says its not impossible it just gets harder the more invested something is.   And that is generations down the road.  Could a first generation mistborn made from larasium be able to do it?   And if larasium were to be brought into play it also significantly increases the allomantic powers of a mistborn.  I wonder how much (God metal so take it for what its worth) larasium it would take to super charge a mistborn to a point of being able to duralumin charge steel and iron to affect shardplate if at all.  Not to mention pewter usage would bring it to or beyond that of shardplate.   

 

I definately see a lot of what ifs needing to be stacked in order to form the perfect mistborn for a fight like this.  Where as the shardplate and shardblades definately sound pretty busted op.   

It would require a lot of Lerasium, as even Elend wasn't doing anything overly impressive, and Shards would likely be even harder to effect than stuff inside people.