Taln Was A Double-Agent

[+Child of Hodor]

Taln seems too nice, self-sacrificing and has endurance beyond even what the other Heralds have. Or so it seems. This being Brandon I am looking for a twist. My theory w/ little evidence:

Taln was a double-agent for Odium from the start, then turned on Odium in the last 4,500 years because he loves Ash so much. 

What do we know about Taln?

He wasn't supposed to be a Herald, but then was included. (Stormfather in OB Ch. 38). An odd last minute addition that makes me suspicious.

He had a habit of winning really difficult fights and dying in the process (Kalak in WoK Prelude). He makes a good show of it, but this approach guarantees he will die before the last Fused does. The Heralds end a Desolation by killing all the Fused and going back to Braize in a timely manner. Taln is guaranteeing he won't outlast the Fused in Desolation. While having an excuse for dying early and often because he takes on such difficult odds. 

He was the only Herald that never broke in the past (Stormfather in OB Ch. 38).  Maybe that's because he was never tortured like others were. He was their inside guy. 

I'm thinking Odium's plan was to get the other 9 Heralds (the ones who were supposed to be Heralds.) to quit and humanity to grow complacent and in-fight. After the Knight's Radiants disband Odium is like "OK, go time! Taln, let the Fused loose." But, Taln has had a change of heart because he genuinely loves Ash and refuses. He is then actually tortured for a really long time and eventually break, but holds on long enough to mess with Odium's plans. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

He was the only Herald that never broke in the past (Stormfather in OB Ch. 38).  Maybe that's because he was never tortured like others were. He was their inside guy. 

Wouldn't they have noticed because of their bond with each other?

[+Child of Hodor]

Just now, Nameless said:

Wouldn't they have noticed because of their bond with each other?

Maybe, but if 9 of them are getting their brains ripped out and set on fire every day I'm not sure they'd notice.

[Eternal Khol]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Maybe, but if 9 of them are getting their brains ripped out and set on fire every day I'm not sure they'd notice.

i think they would.

Taln talks about “sharing” the pain with the other heralds. I think they most certainly would’ve noticed if someone wasn’t getting their “share” of the torture 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Hen]

If he really were "working" for odium, I feel like he would have been the one to break most often, giving odium more opportunities to win, or he could have abandoned the Oathpact first to weaken it, and the other 9, seeing that there was a quick way out of the torture, and knowing there was little reason to stay because the Oathpact was already weak, would have followed suit. Which didn't happen. It's a cool theory, defiantly cool to think about, and who knows it might be right, I just don't think Odium would have held back an advantage like a herald for so long.

[Aminar]

I think that would come off really badly. Taln is the least privileged of the heralds. Having him then be revealed as a traitor/double-agent just doesn't say anything good or all that intriguing and sort of flies in the face of the series theme. 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

4 hours ago, Hentient said:

If he really were "working" for odium, I feel like he would have been the one to break most often, giving odium more opportunities to win, or he could have abandoned the Oathpact first to weaken it, and the other 9, seeing that there was a quick way out of the torture, and knowing there was little reason to stay because the Oathpact was already weak, would have followed suit. Which didn't happen. It's a cool theory, defiantly cool to think about, and who knows it might be right, I just don't think Odium would have held back an advantage like a herald for so long.

I'm with you, it would have been way more beneficial for him to break over and over again. Additionally someone of that character wouldn't hold out for 4.5 millennia. 

[Odeem]

I would personally be more inclined to think he could have potentially become a double agent after being tortured for 4,500 years without(I assume) much of a pause. Odium could have(Well, I guess we have evidence he did ) scrambling his brains, and maybe could have finagled something to make him a sleeper agent? Not necessarily something he would know about - but maybe managed to get one thing through? I wouldn't really think it would be impossible considering the length of time he was played with by the Fused. Unless some Heraldy magic protected him from that.

[Hen]

6 minutes ago, Odeem said:

I would personally be more inclined to think he could have potentially become a double agent after being tortured for 4,500 years without(I assume) much of a pause. Odium could have(Well, I guess we have evidence he did ) scrambling his brains, and maybe could have finagled something to make him a sleeper agent? Not necessarily something he would know about - but maybe managed to get one thing through? I wouldn't really think it would be impossible considering the length of time he was played with by the Fused. Unless some Heraldy magic protected him from that.

I like this. A sleeper agent would be so cool! Maybe the sibling could do something like this? or one of the unmade that we don't know a lot about, Like Chemoarish who can be wrongly associated with the Nightwatcher. Maybe this is because they can do similar things? So Chemoarish could give him a "Boon" of going insane so that he could better deal with his pain (Kinda like a Reod Elantrian) and in exchange he would become like a sleeper agent, but wouldn't remember/ even know about the "Curse". Just and Idea. 

Anyways I think sleeper agent would be sweet. 

[Frustration]

Ahem

"The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty release me." - The Way of Kings chapter 58 epigraph.

That's Taln, doesn't sound like a traitor to me.

[Odeem]

9 hours ago, Hentient said:

I like this. A sleeper agent would be so cool! Maybe the sibling could do something like this? or one of the unmade that we don't know a lot about, Like Chemoarish who can be wrongly associated with the Nightwatcher. Maybe this is because they can do similar things? So Chemoarish could give him a "Boon" of going insane so that he could better deal with his pain (Kinda like a Reod Elantrian) and in exchange he would become like a sleeper agent, but wouldn't remember/ even know about the "Curse". Just and Idea. 

Anyways I think sleeper agent would be sweet. 

It intrigues me, and it doesn't necessarily mean he made a conscious choice to do it. At the end, when he FINALLY broke he may have just being screaming for them to do what they want, and they slipped it in that way, when he was more 'open' to it. I don't know if it will go this way, but I would very much like it - after all, he could then have a nice arc of severe guilt followed by working through everything that happened and redeeming himself. (If he doesn't die at some point, anyway.   ... er... well. Herald. Maybe even if he dies.)

[IcaroRibeiro]

16 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Taln was a double-agent for Odium from the start, then turned on Odium in the last 4,500 years because he loves Ash so much. 

 

It would be a lame and cheap reason, I'm not inclined to just accept a plot twist if the character development behind it is that shallow 

 

The theory is fine though. Just not this particular reason 

Edited May 22, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Hen]

2 hours ago, Odeem said:

It intrigues me, and it doesn't necessarily mean he made a conscious choice to do it. At the end, when he FINALLY broke he may have just being screaming for them to do what they want, and they slipped it in that way, when he was more 'open' to it. I don't know if it will go this way, but I would very much like it - after all, he could then have a nice arc of severe guilt followed by working through everything that happened and redeeming himself. (If he doesn't die at some point, anyway.   ... er... well. Herald. Maybe even if he dies.)

I agree. Id like to see where this goes. Having a herald that wasn't a bad dude from the start, and still isn't, but somewhere in the years of torture by himself he got corrupted without knowing it. Im not sure exactly what Odium could do with a sleeper agent, but regardless, the comeback arch of him having to forgive himself would be great in my opinion. 

[+Oltux72]

Then why did Odium wait after the Recreance? That allowed the Rosharans to develop economically and to build Fabrials.

[Aminar]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Then why did Odium wait after the Recreance? That allowed the Rosharans to develop economically and to build Fabrials.

Child of Hodor explained that in the post. He surmised that Taln fell in love with Shallash and refused to betray her after the last desolation. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Aminar

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Aminar said:

Child of Hodor explained that in the post. He surmise that Taln fell in love with Shallash and refused to betray her after the last desolation. 

He offered Taravangian a deal. Why not Taln and Shallash? Or does this assume that Taln is suicidal?

[Aminar]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He offered Taravangian a deal. Why not Taln and Shallash? Or does this assume that Taln is suicidal?

I don't know. It isn't my theory. But you asked a question that was in the original post. Personally I don't buy the theory. It would undermine the themes of the story. But people are rarely rational so Taln holding out of love for Ash makes as much sense as Taln just somehow holding against torture for centuries because he can. Either way the Heralds can't really be suicidal. They don't die, they just transported to another planet(until Odium worked out a way to steal their immortal juju at the end of Oathbringer.)

[Odeem]

3 hours ago, Hentient said:

I agree. Id like to see where this goes. Having a herald that wasn't a bad dude from the start, and still isn't, but somewhere in the years of torture by himself he got corrupted without knowing it. Im not sure exactly what Odium could do with a sleeper agent, but regardless, the comeback arch of him having to forgive himself would be great in my opinion. 

IF it happened it could be any number of things that would seem innocuous to anyone around him. He could've been (For lack of a better word I can think of) hypnotized to write down when and where leaders of the forces against Odium will be, and leave it on a windowsill with a particular glyph written on it. If I recall correctly(It's been awhile since my last read; Oathbringer's release) Odium can view Roshar much as the Stormfather can? In the Everstorm, I mean? He'd just see it and send an Agent to pick it up. Much easier for Odium to win if he knows in advance for example, Jasnah, Shallan, and Dalinar are going to be at somewhere a few days in advance and can set up a nice big ambush.

Or end up stabbing Dalinar in the back at some point, literally. I could see something like he walked up, struck, then snapped out of it with an 'Oh, snap. Whaaa?'

I know that I'm probably wrong. But I reaaally like the Theory, and it would spin, I think, into his whole "mentally broken" thing he's working through right now. No matter what Brandon chooses, I'm sure it'll be a nice trip through mayhem and storms.

[joesleepsalot]

That’d be a crazy twist. I definitely agree in spirit, but not with the specific herald. “One of them is certainly a traitor to the rest”- a few possible meanings but I’m putting my money on Nale being the traitor—— that guy is a complete whackjob. And who better to be corrupt than the judge/legal guy?

[Aminar]

12 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

That’d be a crazy twist. I definitely agree in spirit, but not with the specific herald. “One of them is certainly a traitor to the rest”- a few possible meanings but I’m putting my money on Nale being the traitor—— that guy is a complete whackjob. And who better to be corrupt than the judge/legal guy?

Isn't that about Sja-Anat? It's part of the same Desk Drawer section that talks about the Unmade.

[ConfusedCow]

This is a fun theory.  I don't really buy it though.  You're explaining the same thing twice, first he doesn't break because he's a double agent, then he doesn't break because he's in love.  There's a corollary of occam's razor here.  Maybe he doesn't break after Aharietiam because he's still Odium's agent, and Odium is letting humanity/Knight's Radiant destroy themselves?  Still don't really buy it...  

[Marethyu316]

This feels like a twist for the sake of a twist. I don't see how it fits with what we know about Taln's character or his actions on screen. Brandon is great at hiding clues, so if he was going to do this I'm sure it would be well done, but right now I don't see any basis for it and think there's tons of evidence against it.

[+Oltux72]

On 22/05/2020 at 5:42 PM, Aminar said:

I don't know. It isn't my theory. But you asked a question that was in the original post.

Not really. One Herald breaking is enough. Taln could have restarted the desolations right away. There wouldn't have been centuries between the first desolations, but weeks. Either he changed his mind within a very short time, or there is a logical contradiction. And there is really nothing the other Heralds could have done. Killing him would have had the very effect they would try to stop.

[Hen]

7 hours ago, Marethyu316 said:

This feels like a twist for the sake of a twist. I don't see how it fits with what we know about Taln's character or his actions on screen. Brandon is great at hiding clues, so if he was going to do this I'm sure it would be well done, but right now I don't see any basis for it and think there's tons of evidence against it.

Thats true. kinda like the Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin love triangle. It was just there for the sake of drama. 

[Theoryspren]

On 5/21/2020 at 11:09 PM, Frustration said:

Ahem

"The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty release me." - The Way of Kings chapter 58 epigraph.

That's Taln, doesn't sound like a traitor to me.

I don’t think that Taln is a traitor but I do think that one of the Harolds was a traitor since the beginning. This is because of the quote that Frustration quoted earlier. This is because Taln talks about how, “The burdens of nine become mine.” But there were ten Harolds, if they were all really with Honor then Odium would have tortured all ten and Taln would be experiencing the burden of ten Harolds. But then the question becomes how would Taln have known he was having the burden of nine in this quote. Because as of Aharietiam if there is a traitorous Harold it doesn’t appear as if the other Harolds know. So it comes down to that either that Taln is saying that he has the nine burdens of the others atop his and I am finding meaning in nothing, or that during the last 4500 years he has learned that there was a traitor among them who wasn’t tortured and to not blow his cover didn’t give in right away after every desolation because then the other Harolds would kill that one emediatly and perpetually to try and stagnate the coming of the Fused. Then the reason he hasn’t shared this with Ash yet since coming back is because he has had only one moment of partial lucidity since they have met back up and chose to express his forgiveness of Ash and the others before he told her about the traitor but wasn’t able to share it before slipping back into craziness.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Theoryspren