Was Heleran a Surgebinder?

[Rybal]

Initially, I'd think that he was not, since his blade obviously didn't scream at him. However, on my reread, I noticed a particular passage in the Taravingian interlude:

 

 

"Who is it?" he [Taravingian] asked softly. "Who is this Surgebinder?"

"Jasnah's ward?" Adrotagia said.

They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girls brother, before his death.

Words of Radiance, Taravingian Interlude, Page 913 (Kindle version)

 

 

That last sentence would suggest that, at the very least, Taravingian believed that Heleran was a Surgebinder. We know that Heleran went to find the Skybreakers, but we still can't be certain that he had those abilities himself.

 

Any other interpretations for this passage?

[hoser]

Initially, I'd think that he was not, since his blade obviously didn't scream at him. However, on my reread, I noticed a particular passage in the Taravingian interlude:

 

 

 

That last sentence would suggest that, at the very least, Taravingian believed that Heleran was a Surgebinder. We know that Heleran went to find the Skybreakers, but we still can't be certain that he had those abilities himself.

 

Any other interpretations for this passage?

That is how I read it also.  I go back and forth, though.  It tells us that Mr. T thinks that Heleran might have been a surgebinder. 

 

I doubt that a spren-linked surgebinder would engage in the wanton slaughter that Heleran did to Dallet and Cenn.  Would Nalan have taught people to be spren-linked surgebinders when he is simultaneously murdering them using the flimsiest of pretences? 

 

The only way I can square the circle is that Nalan calls his organization the Skybreakers, but hasn't been training the members to be surgebinders or Radiants. 

[thejopen27]

Nalan does not have power to grant surgebing power to Szeth except possibly as a squire to his honorblade.  Nalan has created an order of vigilantes and named them the Skybreakers but they are not true skybreakers.  In order to become a Knight Radiant Skybreaker one must form a Nahel Bond with a High spren and Szeth definitely doesn't have that.  In order for Szeth to become a true Skybreaker he will have to reject the corrupted Nale and become more confident and do true justice which is doing what is right not what is the strictest possible interpretation of the law.  Nalan uses his vigilantes to pursue his twisted agenda of destroying surgebinders and the stoneshamans apparently. 

 

Heleran (and probably Shallan's mother) was a part of Nalan's group of Skybreaker vigilantes who blindly follow Nalan's orders regardless of whether or not they are just.  Heleran's conduct was that of a misguided believer and his random slaughter in battle would be frowned upon by a Spren of Honor like a Highspren.  Nalan is more concerned with the Law than with justice.

[Moogle]

Nalan does not have power to grant surgebing power to Szeth except possibly as a squire to his honorblade.  Nalan has created an order of vigilantes and named them the Skybreakers but they are not true skybreakers.

 

Do you have a source for that? We have a WoB saying that the Second Ideal of the Skybreakers was "I will put the law above all else", and I think that is consistent with "vigilante" behavior. There's also this:

Source:

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?

A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Moogle

[Argent]

Somebody at the Chicago signing asked this. I think Brandon said something to the effect of "very astute observation" when the person mentioned the gem on Helaran's Blade. I suspect the actual answer will surface soon.

[Chrono]

Nalan's reasoning may come off as incredibly flimsy to us, but not to him. Lift is a great example of this: she did break the law in a way that earned death as a punishment - she interfered in an Azish religious ritual. The Azish people may have been hesitant at first, but they eventually went along with it (except for that one lady whose name escapes me because I'm too lazy to look it up). 

 

Which means that almost every single Surgebinder in the book is screwed. Kaladin: conspiracy and potential treason against the King of Alethkar. Shallan: Three counts of homicide - one premeditated - attempted theft, and impersonation of royalty. I'm sure that if he really looked, Nalan could pull something up on Dalinar too. About the only safe one in the group is Renarin.

 

But, I've jacked the thread. I don't think that Nalan's group can actually Surgebind. There might be some in the group that can, but most are probably just squires or random followers. As for Helaran, I'd really love to know how killing fifty guys and attempted killing of a prominent brightlord is justice or serving the law. My guess is that Helaran fell in with the Ghostbloods, or an offshoot thereof.

[thejopen27]

I don't have the book with me (I lent it to my kid sister) but my opinion is Brandon gives a lot a knowing winks and cryptic answers about things because he doesn't like to just say RAFO and saying that someone is on the right track is not the same as saying they are right. I have no solid evidence other than common sense. If Brandon thinks that justice is the same as the law he needs a real life history lesson.  Nalan has twisted justice to mean the absolute letter of the law no matter what.  A law that allows the execution of a child for stealing food is unjust and any order founded by Spren of Honor would know this. 

 

Nalan does not rule the High Spren just as Syl is not ruled by Jesrien and Pattern is not ruled by Shallash.  The surgebinders were not originally even associated with the Heralds other than similar powers given for similar traits in a person.  It wasn't until Ishar (who has no power over the Stormfather) forced all of the surgebinders to submit to rules and laws and oaths that they became the knights Radiant. 

 

Syl came to Kaladin because the Honorspren decided that it was in it's best interest to send a piece of itself to bond with a human.  Pattern says something similar that despite the risk the Cryptics decided to send a spren.  Wyndle says that he can't believe that his spren picked lift and not someone else.  None of these spren mention anything about a Herald.

 

If Szeth was a true skybreaker he would not need Nightblood because he would have a spren to form his sword.  I don't have WoB but I have common sense and logic to back up my claim.  There is something wrong with Nalan, not only does he not have the whole picture (if he did he would not be killing surgebinders) but he has twisted and subverted his virtue of Justice.  Justice, true justice, is doing what is right not absolute blind devotion to the law.  Plus if Nalan thinks Surgebinders are bringing back the Desolation he would not be granting surgebinding even if he had the power, which I'm 99 percent sure he doesn't.

 

Also where does it say what the second ideal of the skybreakers is? 

 

"An unjust law is no law at all."

         -Augustine of Hippo

Edited March 23, 2014 by thejopen27

[Moogle]

I don't have the book with me (I lent it to my kid sister) but my opinion is Brandon gives a lot a knowing winks and cryptic answers about things because he doesn't like to just say RAFO and saying that someone is on the right track is not the same as saying they are right. I have no solid evidence other than common sense. If Brandon thinks that justice is the same as the law he needs a real life history lesson.  Nalan has twisted justice to mean the absolute letter of the law no matter what.  A law that allows the execution of a child for stealing food is unjust and any order founded by Spren of Honor would know this. 

 

Highspren are not honorspren. Syl says this:

 

She lifted her chin. “I’m no highspren. Laws don’t matter; what’s right matters.”

 

I think you're applying your own view of justice to Roshar. You may very well be right on the views of the Skybreakers, but we have hints that some Orders have very differing viewpoints. You don't need to agree with the views advocated by any of them. I certainly don't.

 

If Szeth was a true skybreaker he would not need Nightblood because he would have a spren to form his sword.  I don't have WoB but I have common sense and logic to back up my claim.

 

Nobody's said Szeth is a Skybreaker yet, so far as I know. Nalan hasn't called him one yet, just said he's worthy of becoming one. I am reasonably sure that Szeth will attract a highspren by the end of Book 3, but who knows? It is reasonably certain he doesn't have one yet.

 

As for Nightblood: so what? Kaladin could use Vedel's Honorblade if he found it to gain two extra Surges (woo!). I see no reason Szeth can't have a spren and a very powerful extra sword to give him an edge over other Surgebinders.

 

There is something wrong with Nalan, not only does he not have the whole picture (if he did he would not be killing surgebinders) but he has twisted and subverted his virtue of Justice.  Justice, true justice, is doing what is right not absolute blind devotion to the law. 

 

Syl says that highspren think differently (see above quote). As to Nalan: what makes you think he doesn't have the whole picture? Do you know what caused the Recreance? It may very well be that the Recreance was caused by the fact that Radiants found out they brought the Desolations. I think Nalan knows a lot more than either of us, and while he might be a little 'twisted' in his devotion to the law, I am not confident that he's wrong in his conclusions that killing Surgebinders stops Desolations. He could be.

 

Also where does it say what the second ideal of the skybreakers is?

 

Here you go:

 

I finally asked if he could write anything in my book that we did not already know about the skybreakers. I will upload the picture when i get home but  it is the second oath of the skybreakers which says "I will put the law before all else".

 

It's a very interesting oath.

 

"An unjust law is no law at all."

         -Augustine of Hippo

 

I suspect you wouldn't be a Skybreaker if you lived on Roshar. (I certainly wouldn't be either.)

Edited March 23, 2014 by Moogle

[thejopen27]

   I guess a lot of it is my opinion, but as far as Nalan not having the whole picture, both Syl and Pattern mention that they are coming back because the Spren are sensing that the true desolation, the everstorm is approaching.  This would imply that the everstorm comes first and then the spren responded.  Also it's implied in Dalinar's visions, Word's of Radiance (fictional), and by Taln that the cycle of desolations and Heraldic wars started before the Spren started granting humans surgebinding abilities.  Nalan's reasoning that surgebinders coming back will bring about a desolation is flawed logic and Nalan should know this because he was around in the first desolations before surgebinders existed.

 

   Maybe Nalan is sincere, I'm not convinced yet, but he is definitely misguided in his killing of surgebinders and possibly in denial.  Also it appears that when he killed Ym the spren that grant the abilities of a truthwatcher just picked a new person in Renarin so Nalan's efforts where, misguided and futile.

 

Also a constant theme in literature is that revenge is not justice.  Even if Szeth getting his revenge is justice the ends do not justify the means.  Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.  How you accomplish something matters.

Edited March 23, 2014 by thejopen27

[Seloun]

Initially, I'd think that he was not, since his blade obviously didn't scream at him. However, on my reread, I noticed a particular passage in the Taravingian interlude:

 

...

 

That last sentence would suggest that, at the very least, Taravingian believed that Heleran was a Surgebinder. We know that Heleran went to find the Skybreakers, but we still can't be certain that he had those abilities himself.

 

Any other interpretations for this passage?

 

First, it's not necessary to be a Surgebinder to train a surgebinder (if it wasn't, then being of different Order without shared surges would basically disallow that possibility as well). Second, Taravangian isn't specifically talking about being trained as surgebinder - just trained as something (e.g. a spy).

 

More telling is that when Szeth mentions a Surgebinder at the Shattered Plains, Taravangian's first thought is Jasnah - someone presumed to be dead - before Shallan - who is clearly at the Shattered Plains. If Taravangian had reason to believe Shallan was a surgebinder, he wouldn't have assumed Jasnah first (Shallan would have been the far more obvious choice). This likely means that Taravangian knows for sure that Jasnah is a Surgebinder, but Shallan is unlikely a Surgebinder.

 

Helaran's blade also has the gem on its pommel like every other Shardblade, so he wasn't using a live Shardblade either. For Helaran to be a Surgebinder, there would have to be something going on that we're not privy to yet (which is possible, but the point is that there's little if any existing evidence for Helaran being a Surgebinder).

[Rybal]

Helaran's blade also has the gem on its pommel like every other Shardblade, so he wasn't using a live Shardblade either. For Helaran to be a Surgebinder, there would have to be something going on that we're not privy to yet (which is possible, but the point is that there's little if any existing evidence for Helaran being a Surgebinder).

 

Oh, I thought it was obvious that he didn't have a live blade. Of course, I was of the opinion that the Blades of Radiants who died do not stick around the way that dead blades do.

 

I just wasn't sure where Taravingian got the idea that Heleran may have been able to Surgebind.

 

Yeah - I was pretty certain, even on my first read, that he had figured out that Jasnah was a Surgebinder.

[Edgedancer]

Oh, I thought it was obvious that he didn't have a live blade. Of course, I was of the opinion that the Blades of Radiants who died do not stick around the way that dead blades do.

I agree Helaran´s blade was most likely dead, which in turn makes it extremly unlikely that was a Surgebinder. The sreams would have been horrible. For a Surgebinder a knive to the face also doesn´t sound as leathal as it was for Helaran. (Never thought I would ever write something like this.)

All in all that makes it unlikely that he was a Surgebinder. Some kind of secret organisation member that could train his sister as a spy or something, sure I can buy that.

[trendkill]

For a Surgebinder a knive to the face also doesn´t sound as leathal as it was for Helaran.

Just in case we needed any additional proof that Sadeas wasn't a Surgebinder...

Edit: added spoiler tag

Edited March 23, 2014 by trendkill

[Swimmingly]

Unless Nalan makes all his Shardbearer Skybreakers train with the screaming, as a way to both keep them from progressing in the Nahel bond (and therefor controllable) and to make them basically impervious to torture or pain.

[Speaker4thDead]

Helaran's plate would have nullified any healing properties of storm light... That doesn't change the issue of how he could have managed to wield the shard but its possible that it only becomes unbearable after the oaths are spoken.

 

But even if it doesn't matter we repeatedly see Renearin and Szeth attempting with varying level of success to fight while voices raged inside. 

Plus to highlight Moogle's point the code of the Skybreakers could have superseded the pain from the blade much as Szeth code did the same for him. More to the point Helaran didn't go out of his way to kill Kaladin squad but quite literally they were in the way. No one mourns the bugs and plants Kaladin surely kill while he walks. Nor does Syl consider it against the code for Kaladin to have killed the Parshendi when in doing so he was adhering to a greater aspect of the code. Kinda looks similar to a certain other situation... you know where there was this certain lighteyes that had everyone fooled about his character and probably had reason to meant up with this idea called justice by the hands of a dead shard wielding possible fledgling radiant lol

 

I know Im playing devil's advocate on the issue but who knows

Edited March 23, 2014 by Speaker4thDead

[Argent]

Unless Nalan makes all his Shardbearer Skybreakers train with the screaming, as a way to both keep them from progressing in the Nahel bond (and therefor controllable) and to make them basically impervious to torture or pain.

 

I am not sure you can train out of this - not if you want to keep Surgebinding. The dead spren itself is not really an issue for this, but given Syl's discomfort and disgust from just looking at somebody else's Shardblade, I don't think she would want to function if Kaladin had one. 

[melancholy]

Im 90% sure if Heleran were infused with stormlight or capable of surgebinding that kaladin would be dead.

[Wolven]

Nalan to me seems a bit of a hypocrite.  He's going around killing Surgebinders, using any potential crime in their past as justification as doing so.  Well, he's a Herald, he broke the Oathpact.  To me that doesn't really give him a leg to stand on when it comes to the law.  Granted, breaking a pact might not be the same as breaking the law, but that was a pretty serious pact to be breaking. 

 

Maybe doing so and living to see the True Desolation come about anyway is what has twisted him around so much. 

[grinachu]

Great thread, OP. Just a few observations

 

1. Helaran's reasons for searching out the Skybreakers may well be his belief that his father had murdered his mother and his disgust that he got away with it. 

 

2. Helaran almost kills his father but stops himself from doing so when the only person with a true knowledge of the facts, Shallan, vouches for him. This is similar in some ways to Nalan's respect for the law in leaving Lift after she is pardoned. 

 

3. Jasnah's conversation with the Highspren implies that some of them have been alive since before the Recreance, and therefore there could in principle be surgebinding skybreakers. 

 

4. It is possible that Skybreakers are capable of Investiture but choose not to, for the same reasons that Nalan is hunting all potential Radiants - to avoid another Desolation. 

 

5. Nalan is extremely well informed of Szeth's journey, including why he does what he does and what orders he has been given. Nor can it have been an accident that he is on hand to revive Szeth almost immediately after the fight with Kaladin. This implies that either he or someone working for him has precognition abilities or is otherwise keeping very close watch of Szeth. 

Edited March 24, 2014 by grinachu

[Tazren]

 

 

I doubt that a spren-linked surgebinder would engage in the wanton slaughter that Heleran did to Dallet and Cenn.  

Kaladin engaged in the same kind of slaughter against the Parshendi. Whether or not it is "wanton" is entirely dependent on your perspective.

[hoser]

Kaladin engaged in the same kind of slaughter against the Parshendi. Whether or not it is "wanton" is entirely dependent on your perspective.

Um, no. 

 

Because Kaladin doesn't have a Shardblade and is horribly outnumbered, the situations are not comparable, but he only kills the Parshendi that are a threat or interfering with his objectives.  He is satisfied with wounding them when he can get away with it. 

 

Cenn is wounded and Dallet is waiting with him to get medical attention.  They are out of the battle and are neither a threat nor able to interfere with his objective.  He slaughters them just because he can. 

[akintu]

I think whoever Kaladin killed on the battlefield may not be Helaran.  I think there is plenty of evidence that Helaran is a surgebinder, both Mr T's comment and some of the things Wit says to Shallan seem to be leading that direction.  But on the other hand, it seems unlikely that the person Kaladin killed was a surgebinder, because of the whole screaming sword thing.  No reason Helaran could not have given up his blade when his surgebinding started to manifest itself and the screaming became a problem.  So whoever he gave his blade to ended up getting themselves killed by Kaladin.  Maybe Helaran was trying to fake his own death, or maybe his organization just recycled the blade when he manifested the ability to make his own.

 

I also just feel like the text has setup enough uncertainty regarding who Kaladin killed to make us question the assumptions the characters are making in the book (that Shallan believes Helaran is dead and that Kaladin believes he must have killed her brother).

[Elena]

@akintu

I wouldn't say that theres uncertainty. Occams razor - often the simplest explanation is the right one - the Shardbearer died in Sadeas's princedon and yet was Veden, it"s much kore likely that it was Helaran rather than some convoluted explanation thats really mostly speculation.

Jusy my two cents.

ETA spelling. Ugh I hate typing from a phone.

Edited March 24, 2014 by _Elena

[Swimmingly]

It is possible that Helaran was killed, then his killer was killed. Not incredibly convoluted, though less likely plot-wise.

[Elena]

Sure it is. But since the possibility of him being killer by another young red-haired man from his homeland is far less likely than his being killed by Kaladin, I'll stick with the simple answer.