Was Heleran a Surgebinder?

[Tazren]

Um, no. 

 

Because Kaladin doesn't have a Shardblade and is horribly outnumbered, the situations are not comparable, but he only kills the Parshendi that are a threat or interfering with his objectives.  He is satisfied with wounding them when he can get away with it. 

 

Cenn is wounded and Dallet is waiting with him to get medical attention.  They are out of the battle and are neither a threat nor able to interfere with his objective.  He slaughters them just because he can. 

 

Technically, wouldn't the shardbearer have slaughtered them because he was going for Amaram, whom they were protecting? 

 

I could certainly accept that an Honorspren wouldn't have allowed it, but some other kind? We don't even know what all the KR-spren were. If you're hardcore Lawful, which "I will put the law before anything else" indicates that Skybreakers would be, slaughter would certainly be acceptable, as long as it would be lawful. During a battlefield? Why not. Being more Lawful than Good than can turn you into a very nasty, callous person. "The Law" does not have any specific morals attached to it. It can be anything. 

 

 

[akintu]

@akintu

I wouldn't say that theres uncertainty. Occams razor - often the simplest explanation is the right one - the Shardbearer died in Sadeas's princedon and yet was Veden, it"s much kore likely that it was Helaran rather than some convoluted explanation thats really mostly speculation.

Jusy my two cents.

ETA spelling. Ugh I hate typing from a phone.

 

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 387973120 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 430754096 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

Right, I'm kind getting at Occam's Razor. We have to discount the evidence that Helaran is a surgebinder to accept that Kaladin killed him. Whoever Kal killed was not a surgebinder, so the simplest answer is that it was not Helaran.

[hoser]

Technically, wouldn't the shardbearer have slaughtered them because he was going for Amaram, whom they were protecting? 

 

I could certainly accept that an Honorspren wouldn't have allowed it, but some other kind? We don't even know what all the KR-spren were. If you're hardcore Lawful, which "I will put the law before anything else" indicates that Skybreakers would be, slaughter would certainly be acceptable, as long as it would be lawful. During a battlefield? Why not. Being more Lawful than Good than can turn you into a very nasty, callous person. "The Law" does not have any specific morals attached to it. It can be anything. 

 

Um, no.  Cenn wasn't protecting Amaram.  From the end of chapter 1:

Cenn just sat where he was,  He couldn't have stood, not with that leg wound. 

...

Either way, he couldn't fight.  You didn't fight something like this. ...

Cenn closed his eyes.

 

Even if you put the law before everything else, once you have satisfied the law, there is still everything else.  No law required him to kill wounded who were no threat, particularly in this case, where he wants to kill Amaram and doesn't really care who wins the battle.  Since he is not legally required to wantonly slaughter wounded soldiers who pose no threat, all else is definitely relevant. 

[Elena]

Whoever Kal killed was not a surgebinder, so the simplest answer is that it was not Helaran.

Only we have maybe half a sentece from Mr T. that Helaran might have been a surgebinder, which is kinda at odds with the Skybreakers' commander in chief going around finding possibile loopholes to kill every surgebinder around.

[Rybal]

I think whoever Kaladin killed on the battlefield may not be Helaran.  I think there is plenty of evidence that Helaran is a surgebinder, both Mr T's comment and some of the things Wit says to Shallan seem to be leading that direction.  But on the other hand, it seems unlikely that the person Kaladin killed was a surgebinder, because of the whole screaming sword thing.  No reason Helaran could not have given up his blade when his surgebinding started to manifest itself and the screaming became a problem.  So whoever he gave his blade to ended up getting themselves killed by Kaladin.  Maybe Helaran was trying to fake his own death, or maybe his organization just recycled the blade when he manifested the ability to make his own.

 

I also just feel like the text has setup enough uncertainty regarding who Kaladin killed to make us question the assumptions the characters are making in the book (that Shallan believes Helaran is dead and that Kaladin believes he must have killed her brother).

 

Now that you mention this, it is certainly a plausible theory. We know that Taravingian at least THOUGHT Heleran was a surgebinder (or capable of being one). Also, whatever group he was with may have been the type to periodically transfer their Shards among them, whether as punishment or simply to whomever needed them at that time.

 

Then again, Taravingian also confirms that Heleran is dead. So, unless he ALSO died (assuming this was prior to the incident in WoK), which resulted in the Shards being passed to another Veden who then went on to attack Amaram . . .

 

Truth to tell, I still don't have a clue of what happened with this. It is possible that Taravingian/The Diagram is wrong on this count, but it has thus far only been negligibly incorrect and he DID seem certain of that.

[Daishi5]

I think there was an earlier theory about the Shardbearer attacking Amaram being a surgebinder because Cenn heard thunder before he saw the shardbearer.  

 

I think Heleran was not a surgebinder because Kaladin beat him while he had plate and a blade when Kaladin only had a very weak bond to Syl. I think the sound Cenn heard was Nalan dropping off Heleran and then leaving. 

[GeoMancer]

Why couldn't they be actual Skybreakers? what about that bit that one of the orders didn't break their vows, but pulled a great subterfudge on the other orders?

[Moogle]

Why couldn't they be actual Skybreakers? what about that bit that one of the orders didn't break their vows, but pulled a great subterfudge on the other orders?

 

"Helaran" (it might not be him), who Kaladin killed and is a known member of the Skybreakers, had a dead spren blade (since Amaram had it). So... there's a definite issue with all Skybreakers being Surgebinders. It's possible though, I grant.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Tazren]

Um, no.  Cenn wasn't protecting Amaram.  From the end of chapter 1:

 

Even if you put the law before everything else, once you have satisfied the law, there is still everything else.  No law required him to kill wounded who were no threat, particularly in this case, where he wants to kill Amaram and doesn't really care who wins the battle.  Since he is not legally required to wantonly slaughter wounded soldiers who pose no threat, all else is definitely relevant. 

 

I don't recall exactly how Cenn's death happened. Wasn't he trampled by the Shardbearer? The rest of Kaladin's squad did rush with him to defend Amaram, though. Even though they had no chance. 

 

My point was there if you are bound to follow the Law, there is nothing that would inherently stop you from killing, as long as you are doing so within the bounds of the law. I doubt that what the shardbearer did was illegal, or that it broke some sort of moral code held strongly by the Lighteyes, considering that Sadea's treachery was considered a tolerable move ... 

 

An Honorspren would have objected because what Helaran did would've been dishonorable. A Highspren simply would not have cared, so long as it weren't against a law, generally speaking. Individual highspren might, I guess, but Helaran's hypothetical spren could just as easily have been indifferent to it. 

 

You can be a totally mean, callous monster and still be extremely lawful. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Hi there!

So someone mentioned the guy referencing the gemstone on Helaran's blade at the Chicago signing. That was me. Pretty awesome experience to meet Brandon. He's a wonderful man with a great sense of humor and he obviously had a hand of steel for signing that many books, and going to another event that night. (He signed 6 of my books and things.)

 

But anyways, I am very interested in this topic. I actually had missed the Taravangian reference first go around, and hadn't gotten to it yet in my audio reread, or I would've pressed further on Helaran. At this point my theory is that he was a surgebinder, but that he betrayed his oaths in his decision to kill Amaram.

 

I first got the idea that he might be a Surgebinder by his blade. It's referenced several times that no one knows the history of the blade. The devil is in the details when it comes to reading Sanderson. While Amaram explains this away by saying no one identified the assassin, that doesn't explain why any written histories would ignore the tradition of knowing which shardblade belongs to who over time.

 

My second clue came with the interlude chapter at the fair. I'm assuming that it's Hoid who is meeting with Shallan's father when she returns, and he is running an errand for Helaran. Hoid doesn't seem like the character to run errands for people who aren't important. So how had he met Helaran? Then, he seemed to be surprised to meet Shallan. This plays into his "right place right time" ability, but at the same time, he would've had to have met Helaran first, and enagaged with him in some, which I believe marks him as important, as Hoid only goes where he needs to be. 

 

Then, when I was standing in line to meet him, I noticed the gemstone on his blade, so I quickly revised my question. Instead of asking if he was bonded to a spren, I asked Brandon what happens to a spren when it's bonded dies. He replied that it would be an emotional event, but not cognitively shattering. I made the offhand comment that it meant that Helaran would not be a surgebinder, and he smiled a secret smile, before asking me why. 

 

I told him that with the gemstone evidence and his answer, it seemed pretty conclusive. He again, gave a knowing smile, and this time there was a twinkle in his eye, and he said "That's a big clue." It all seemed very suspect, like I was being played with, and he was enjoying the hunt. The conversation ended with me telling him I wasn't convinced because he was sneaky, which only broadened his smile. So with the contradicting evidence, that leads to a few theories. 

 

The first being that, as I stated, Helaran had bonded with a Spren and broken his oath. This seems to satisfy all the evidence presented. He needed a gemstone to rebond with his blade. Kaladin beat him in fight where Helaran was wearing plate and using his blade. Helaran's blade is either new, or not found until recently. Hoid had interactions with Helaran that convinced him to do him a favor. Helaran's death wouldn't have left his spren shattered into a blade. 

 

My second theory, is that all of the skybreakers used to be bonded to spren. They chose to reject their oaths, in order to kill the spren, and prevent the return of the voidbringers. In the Lift chapter, they make the comment about asking when the constables started being able to requisition sharblades. That could mean that they had sharblades to requisition, but had not noticed a disappearance, as it seems that sort of thing would be well recorded and newsworthy across the nations. This also can lead to the assumption that the skybreakers stayed with the spren long enough to form the blade, then ​voluntarily broke their oaths to kill the spren. 

 

Thoughts?

[Moogle]

My second theory, is that all of the skybreakers used to be bonded to spren. They chose to reject their oaths, in order to kill the spren, and prevent the return of the voidbringers. In the Lift chapter, they make the comment about asking when the constables started being able to requisition sharblades. That could mean that they had sharblades to requisition, but had not noticed a disappearance, as it seems that sort of thing would be well recorded and newsworthy across the nations. This also can lead to the assumption that the skybreakers stayed with the spren long enough to form the blade, then ​voluntarily broke their oaths to kill the spren.

 

I like this theory. It seems suitably heartless for the Lawful Neutral Order. They killed their own spren by betraying their oaths, then picked up their corpses to use. It explains Helaran's Blade, certainly, and why no one knew its history. I am not incredibly convinced it's true, but it's a nice explanation and I will keep it in mind during my reread.

 

It would also be... interesting, from the perspective of the Skybreakers. It would mean they're punishing the spren for something. I'm slowly being swayed by these spren-are-evil theories.

[hoser]

Great questions and discussion!

 

Apparently some highspren, the type bonded to the Skybreakers, have survived.  This might be why Jasnah tries to get information from them.   There are other ways for the Skybreakers to get deadsprenblades. 

They could have taken deadsprenblades from people who picked them up from orders that had recreanted.  The Skybreaker order could have stopped binding spren, but passed away from natural causes with their spren bond intact.  Nalan could have kept the name for his organization even though he eventually had no more Radiants. 

 

Now that the Desolation and the Everstorm are here, it's possible that Nalan has changed purposes.  He apparently knew about Szeth's fight with Kaladin, but didn't intervene to try to kill Kaladin.  I wonder whether he is still hunting proto-Radiants.  He may want to get his hands on the Honorblades, and is using the pretext of the Shamanate's mistaken judgement of Szeth to do so. 

 

My point was there if you are bound to follow the Law, there is nothing that would inherently stop you from killing, as long as you are doing so within the bounds of the law. I doubt that what the shardbearer did was illegal, or that it broke some sort of moral code held strongly by the Lighteyes, considering that Sadea's treachery was considered a tolerable move ... 

 

An Honorspren would have objected because what Helaran did would've been dishonorable. A Highspren simply would not have cared, so long as it weren't against a law, generally speaking. Individual highspren might, I guess, but Helaran's hypothetical spren could just as easily have been indifferent to it.

And my point was that spren-bonded Skybreakers are bound by at least two and possibly 5 or more oaths.  The first oath would cause them to avoid wanton slaughter.  Ishi presumably constrained all the orders to make them generally different flavors of honor.  The Skybreaker second oath is not their only one, so they have more constraints than simply following the law. 

Edited March 25, 2014 by hoser

[Seloun]

Now that you mention this, it is certainly a plausible theory. We know that Taravingian at least THOUGHT Heleran was a surgebinder (or capable of being one). Also, whatever group he was with may have been the type to periodically transfer their Shards among them, whether as punishment or simply to whomever needed them at that time.

 

We don't actually know this. All Taravangian thinks is that Shallan may have been trained (it's not specified in _what_; it can be easily read as being trained as an operative or in espionage) and that it might have been her brother who did it, if not Jasnah.

 

There are at least two completely independent ways to read this that does not conclude Helaran is a Surgebinder:

 

1) You don't have to be a Surgebinder to train a Surgebinder. You just have to know something about the abilities that you're trying to teach.

 

2) It's not clear T even knows Shallan is a Surgebinder, period (suspect, yes). When Szeth mentions running into a Surgebinder in the Shattered Plains, T's immediate assumption is that it's Jasnah, not Shallan, despite knowing that Shallan is for certain at the camps and Jasnah is presumed dead. This implies that according to his thinking, the odds of Jasnah being alive * Jasnah being a Surgebinder is greater than the odds of Shallan being a Surgebinder. This makes is more likely that the 'training' he's referring to is not specifically Surgebinding.

[Jedi Radiant]

 Maybe Nalan is sincere, I'm not convinced yet, but he is definitely misguided in his killing of surgebinders and possibly in denial.  Also it appears that when he killed Ym the spren that grant the abilities of a truthwatcher just picked a new person in Renarin so Nalan's efforts where, misguided and futile.

At this point, we are not positive what the ability of regrowth gives a person, as far as I know. What if it allows even greater healing than a "normal" surgebinder gets? I know a shardblade through the chest=burnt eyes and death, but the possibility may be open for Ym's return.

[Nalan]

Grinachu said (among other things),

 

5. Nalan is extremely well informed of Szeth's journey, including why he does what he does and what orders he has been given. Nor can it have been an accident that he is on hand to revive Szeth almost immediately after the fight with Kaladin. This implies that either he or someone working for him has precognition abilities or is otherwise keeping very close watch of Szeth. 

 

 

We can only hope that readers will receive more context as the story progresses. Someone said that history is written by the victors. I'd guess it was either Ben Franklin or Alexander de Toqueville. But those are my two defaults when I can't remember the actual thinker.

[thejopen27]

Mr. T doesn't seem as smart as he seems to think he is.  He gets it wrong a lot and some of his conclusions are based on faulty information.  Even the smartest person ever would get things wrong if given incomplete or wrong information.  Taravangian is right a lot of the time but, especially the further he gets from he day of transcendence, he is not perfect.  Mr. T may have thought Heleran was a Surgebinder (I do not think he was saying that but instead was implying Heleran was in the secret society of Skybreakers and was a trained shardbearer) but all the evidence points to Heleran not having been a surgebinder.

 

Also is anyone worried about the motives, no that's not right word, the sanity and ignorance of human decency of Super smart Taravangian.  He himself tells us that he does not allow himself to make decisions on his smartest days and that the smarter he gets the less compassionate he is, so extrapolate that to the hundredth power to how uncompassionate he must have been on the day of the diagram.  What are super smart/cold Taravagians parameters for acceptable loss to preserve the species?  Will his hubris cause him to obstruct or oppose other paths devised by Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Jasnah, Lift, Renarin and the other Knights Radiant in his single devotion to his own plan.  Who's plan is better one super smart but amazingly uncompassionate man being interpreted by people stumbling around his gibberish.  Or ten intelligent, ,tested, honorable, protective, just, confident, brave, selfless, loving, healing, learned, giving, creative, clever, wise, caring, resolute, hard-working, dependable, resourceful, pious and guiding leaders willing to work together to save everyone they possibly can?

Edited March 25, 2014 by thejopen27

[Nalan]

Mr. T doesn't seem as smart as he seems to think he is.  He gets it wrong a lot and some of his conclusions are based on faulty information.  Even the smartest person ever would get things wrong if given incomplete or wrong information.  Taravangian is right a lot of the time but, especially the further he gets from he day of transcendence, he is not perfect.  Mr. T may have thought Heleran was a Surgebinder (I do not think he was saying that but instead was implying Heleran was in the secret society of Skybreakers and was a trained shardbearer) but all the evidence points to Heleran not having been a surgebinder.

 

Also is anyone worried about the motives, no that's not right word, the sanity and ignorance of human decency of Super smart Taravangian.  He himself tells us that he does not allow himself to make decisions on his smartest days and that the smarter he gets the less compassionate he is, so extrapolate that to the hundredth power to how uncompassionate he must have been on the day of the diagram.  What are super smart/cold Taravagians parameters for acceptable loss to preserve the species?  Will his hubris cause him to obstruct or oppose other paths devised by Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Jasnah, Lift, Renarin and the other Knights Radiant in his single devotion to his own plan.  Who's plan is better one super smart but amazingly uncompassionate man being interpreted by people stumbling around his gibberish.  Or ten intelligent, ,tested, honorable, protective, just, confident, brave, selfless, loving, healing, learned, giving, creative, clever, wise, caring, resolute, hard-working, dependable, resourceful, pious and guiding leaders willing to work together to save everyone they possibly can?

 

Interesting questions.

 

Is a prophet, who knows truth, obligated to report it without censor? What if the prophet determines the truth doesn't offer sufficient hope? And everyone would be better off deluded.

 

And then there's Szeth. Truthless. What does "Truthless" mean? And why would that make him an ideal candidate for the Skybreakers?

[thejopen27]

Mr. T is not telling the future he was using his extreme intelligence to guess the future.  Mr. T is not a prophet.

 

  I think Szeth is truthless because the Shin Shamans thought he was lying and had taken up one of the Honorblades without cause (at least the shamans thought so).  Remember when Rysn and her Babsk go to Shinovar any man who picks up a weapon becomes a slave who is forced to wield a weapon as a slave.  So if you pick up an Honorblade maybe they take it a step further and make you Truthless.

[Moogle]

And my point was that spren-bonded Skybreakers are bound by at least two and possibly 5 or more oaths.  The first oath would cause them to avoid wanton slaughter.  Ishi presumably constrained all the orders to make them generally different flavors of honor.  The Skybreaker second oath is not their only one, so they have more constraints than simply following the law. 

 

Not to derail the topic here, but I have suggested before that the First Ideal doesn't bind Surgebinders very well before (Kaladin has major issues with it and it never causes issues for the bond). I'm not so sure that the Skybreakers would have been as honorable as you suggest. Certainly, they would have to act within the bounds of the law, which means they couldn't slaughter people normally. Once they get into a war, though, I see nothing that would hold them back. Once you're in a war, you're not really an innocent.

 

The Orders did conflict before. This sort of conflict could be what drives implied-conflicts like this epigraph:

There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

 

Who's plan is better one super smart but amazingly uncompassionate man being interpreted by people stumbling around his gibberish.  Or ten intelligent, ,tested, honorable, protective, just, confident, brave, selfless, loving, healing, learned, giving, creative, clever, wise, caring, resolute, hard-working, dependable, resourceful, pious and guiding leaders willing to work together to save everyone they possibly can?

 

Er, well, presumably the super smart man who is so smart he can predict highstorm dates years in advance, even going so far as to know when the Stormfather will alter their schedule. The same man who's been working for years before Dalinar ever received a vision to make sure the world would be united, and who has just picked up the one nation and signs point to him being about to pick up a few others. He'd be so smart that he could make his plan followable to even the most stupid of people.

 

I mean, there's a lot of criticism you can heap on Mr. T, but I don't think the criticism that he's incompetent is very valid. The Radiants have Dalinar Kholin, the man who trusted both Sadeas and Amaram, leading the reformed Radiants. Dalinar was barely capable of uniting half the highprinces. It seems to me that the easiest course of action is for Taravangian and the Radiants to unite. Taravangian can lead, and the Radiants can go use their lightsabers to whack off Voidbringers.

 

Edited March 25, 2014 by Moogle

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Interesting questions.

 

Is a prophet, who knows truth, obligated to report it without censor? What if the prophet determines the truth doesn't offer sufficient hope? And everyone would be better off deluded.

 

And then there's Szeth. Truthless. What does "Truthless" mean? And why would that make him an ideal candidate for the Skybreakers?

 

 

 

Mr. T is not telling the future he was using his extreme intelligence to guess the future.  Mr. T is not a prophet.

 

  I think Szeth is truthless because the Shin Shamans thought he was lying and had taken up one of the Honorblades without cause (at least the shamans thought so).  Remember when Rysn and her Babsk go to Shinovar any man who picks up a weapon becomes a slave who is forced to wield a weapon as a slave.  So if you pick up an Honorblade maybe they take it a step further and make you Truthless.

 

I think that everyone who picks up a blade was made Truthless. In the Rysn chapter, they mention the slaves, and then talk about how they often trade away their stones as a way of marking who their owners are. I think what was special about Szeth, was the weapon he picked up. I can't find the immediate chapter, but we know in the Rysn chapter the Shin revere farmers who are "ones-who-add, whereas in the chapter I can't find, Szeth refers to himself as "one who takes away." So in this stable society, weapons are the unholy because they don't add to a society, but rather weakens it, and so as part of their law or religion, I'm not sure which, the ones who take away become truthless, so that they don't decide for themselves what is destroyed. It's tied heavily into their honor system as well, which is what points me to think it is the religion. 

 

In the recorded in blood chapter, Szeth at first wants to kill Taravangian, but he doesn't. "Or I could kill him, Szeth thought, I could stop this. He nearly did it. But honor prevailed, for the moment."  This seems to show that it is only by choice at redeeming his honor that Szeth follows his masters will. He kills hundreds to thousands of people to preserve his honor, working against his emotions. In the Taravangian interlude in Words of Radiance, they mention how Szeth shows some emotion, and that he's insane. He seemed hopeful that there were surgebinders, and that he wouldn't have to follow his oath anymore, because his honor is worth more than his sanity. Following either the law or his religion means more to him than the lives he takes and his own personal moral code.

 

I think these are the reasons that he is an ideal candidate for the Skybreakers. Not because he's truthless, but because he buried his emotions and sanity, and without fault, listened to every person that held the oathstone. He wasn't interested because of the honorblade, but because he was a man that truly lived the ideals that the Skybreakers hold to. Especially that of suppressing his emotions. Especially in the Lift chapter, it's made abundantly clear that Nalan does not have any emotion. Szeth already was most of the way to completely suppressing his emotion, while following the law. If there is anything else that would be more attractive to Nalan, I'm not sure what it could be.

 

Also, I have a theory on that. Nalan mentions that Szeth had died. The blade had severed his soul, but Nalan brought back his mind. I believe this has killed off the rest of the emotions that Szeth still had. He's completely a cognitive and physical being, with his spiritual self disconnected from the rest of him. Along with the "training" that he endured, being a cold blooded and calculating killer with one of the most powerful relics in the cosmere makes him one heck of a candidate for "Skybreaker of the Month."

[Elena]

 

 

 

 

I think that everyone who picks up a blade was made Truthless. In the Rysn chapter, they mention the slaves, and then talk about how they often trade away their stones as a way of marking who their owners are. I think what was special about Szeth, was the weapon he picked up. I can't find the immediate chapter, but we know in the Rysn chapter the Shin revere farmers who are "ones-who-add, whereas in the chapter I can't find, Szeth refers to himself as "one who takes away." So in this stable society, weapons are the unholy because they don't add to a society, but rather weakens it, and so as part of their law or religion, I'm not sure which, the ones who take away become truthless, so that they don't decide for themselves what is destroyed. It's tied heavily into their honor system as well, which is what points me to think it is the religion. 

It's prettily heavily implied that Szeth was made truthless, for heresy (claiming that the Radiants/Voidbringers) had/were returned, and condemned to a life of slavery - the deaths he caused while obeying his masters' orders being the real punishment. Since Szeth seems to hate the idea of causing deaths, I really doubt he 'picked up a blade' by choice.

 

Most likely, he committed such a big crime by Shin standards that he was saddled with the deadliest weapon in their arsenal - as to lessen the possibility to be killed in battle. The longer he lives, the more people he kills, the harshest the punishment.

(With no thoughts whatsoever for all the poor folks Szeth will kill during his 'punishment'.. man, these Shins are cold sons of guns).

[Nalan]

  I think Szeth is truthless because the Shin Shamans thought he was lying and had taken up one of the Honorblades without cause (at least the shamans thought so).  Remember when Rysn and her Babsk go to Shinovar any man who picks up a weapon becomes a slave who is forced to wield a weapon as a slave.  So if you pick up an Honorblade maybe they take it a step further and make you Truthless.

I wasn't clear describing my interest. I find it interesting that Szeth is labeled "Truthless". They could have labeled him (and his ilk) anything, but they settled on "Truthless." 

 

Can someone who doesn't possess a belief system (i.e. someone who's perfectly skeptical) have honor? Don't you have to believe that something is true?

 

Civilizations have a difficult time coping with inconsistent wild cards.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

It's prettily heavily implied that Szeth was made truthless, for heresy (claiming that the Radiants/Voidbringers) had/were returned, and condemned to a life of slavery - the deaths he caused while obeying his masters' orders being the real punishment. Since Szeth seems to hate the idea of causing deaths, I really doubt he 'picked up a blade' by choice.

 

Most likely, he committed such a big crime by Shin standards that he was saddled with the deadliest weapon in their arsenal - as to lessen the possibility to be killed in battle. The longer he lives, the more people he kills, the harshest the punishment.

(With no thoughts whatsoever for all the poor folks Szeth will kill during his 'punishment'.. man, these Shins are cold sons of guns).

 

 Hmm, I don't disagree, I had assumed that in announcing that the voidbringers were returning he had taken the honorblade as part of the crime. I-10 is where he mentions his banishment. "Years ago, Szeth had been banished for raising the alarm. The false alarm, it had been said." So there's the heresy. I guess I missed the part where he had been given the honorblade as part of the banishment to become truthless. So does that mean the other slaves are not truthless themselves, but instead a different title for their punishment?

[Elena]

 Hmm, I don't disagree, I had assumed that in announcing that the voidbringers were returning he had taken the honorblade as part of the crime. I-10 is where he mentions his banishment. "Years ago, Szeth had been banished for raising the alarm. The false alarm, it had been said." So there's the heresy. I guess I missed the part where he had been given the honorblade as part of the banishment to become truthless. So does that mean the other slaves are not truthless themselves, but instead a different title for their punishment?

But if he'd been banished for 'raising the alarm', it doesn't say a thing about the Blade. And Szeth evident repulsion when he kills makes it unlikely that he took the Blade - why would he?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Does anyone have an idea if it had been mentioned where the honorblade came into the picture? I found another snipped relating to his banishment in I-14 WoR, but it doesn't help much as to where he got the blade. "Szeth had been banished from Shinovar, made Truthless for something relating to a claim that the Voidbringers had returned." 

 

Once again, it was pure speculation on my part from my assumption that he had picked up an honorblade as part of raising the alarm. The shin have seven of the blades, at least I assume so from a passage in the same interlude "...One of the honorblades has vanished....'One of the other seven?'...Your people are secretive, but yes." 

 

Then, jumping back to I-10, almost immediately after the first passage I quoted: "The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant are fallen. We are all that remains. All that remains...Truthless."  So I extrapolated from all this that the Shin are something of both a protector and a watcher. They protect the honorblades from being abused and keep them secreted away at Urithiru, which they somehow know about (I-10 "The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy.") But they also keep watch in case they will be needed again (protecting them for the heralds maybe? not sure myself.) 

 

I also have to imagine that Szeth's family has been somehow entrusted with that duty, considering Szeth does not like being referred to as Szeth-Son-Naturo, as he thinks it brings shame to his father. So my theory was that he picked up an honorblade when he raised the alarm about the voidbringers, intending to either lead the charge against them, or at least have the power to protect using the honorblade, but then was denounced by the shin, and exiled with an oathstone. I also find it unlikely that he took a blade intending to use it on people, but rather to try and prevent the end of the world. 

 

But, something is nagging at my mind saying that he was given the honorblade, but I can't seem to find the passage. I've got my regular book on my right side, and my e-book on my left and still nothing haha.