[OB] Jezrien

[bo.montier]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

Hemalurgy can be used anywhere in the cosmere, per ars arcana of one of the mistborn books (not sure what one off the top of my head)

Also, in this book we see awakening (nightblood, wit's doll moving, presumably azure's sword)

It would seem paintings for invested people work off world although that is kinda unclear how it would work.

We see Hoid using Yolen magic in warbreaker and stormlight archives with his storytelling

Vasher and Azure can both change their appearence with awakening and divine breath and also, Vasher not dying is a pretty good sign he can use stormlight for breath (yes IK there is a WoB on this i don't know where to find it)

The only requirement to become an allomancer is genetic or lerasium, same with feruchamy the only location based magic is from Sel

Well, ninja'd making a long post.

My understanding of the rest of those was that they gained the magic/investiture from the resident system and brought it with them. Vasher, Hoid, Vivenna all brought breath with them (or just get to use stormlight as breath, as you mentioned, but they brought the ability with them and just use the local manifestation of power...). Vasher & Vivenna could already change their appearance. 

Other than the clarification regarding hemalurgy I'm not sure where my understanding of this is different from yours. What am I missing?
 

[dendrophobe]

Just now, Vissy said:

Back on Discord, we had some talk about this. One of us mentioned that it might've been a Dawnshard, and another dubbed it as a Raysium dagger. Personally, I think Raysium makes sense, what with Odium's associations with gold - it's actually a pretty obvious connection to make, and I'm certain that Brandon at least intended for people to make that connection. 

Umm, I think the actual term we used was Odiumium.

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, bo.montier said:

My understanding of the rest of those was that they gained the magic/investiture from the resident system and brought it with them. Vasher, Hoid, Vivenna all brought breath with them (or just get to use stormlight as breath, as you mentioned, but they brought the ability with them and just use the local manifestation of power...). Vasher & Vivenna could already change their appearance. 

Other than the clarification regarding hemalurgy I'm not sure where my understanding of this is different from yours. What am I missing?
 

I was mostly referencing the part where you said you needed to be on Scadrial to use hemalurgy because it came from there.

[Vissy]

Just now, dendrophobe said:

Umm, I think the actual term we used was Odiumium.

And here I thought I could save us some face 

[bo.montier]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

I was mostly referencing the part where you said you needed to be on Scadrial to use hemalurgy because it came from there.

Cool, yeah, that was news to me. 

I GREATLY appreciate the clarifications on this. Before beginning to frequent this forum I had some seriously misguided notions of how all this worked and you guys have been so gracious in clearing those misconceptions up.

[dendrophobe]

Just now, bo.montier said:

Cool, yeah, that was news to me. 

I GREATLY appreciate the clarifications on this. Before beginning to frequent this forum I had some seriously misguided notions of how all this worked and you guys have been so gracious in clearing those misconceptions up.

Sure! Have you checked out Arcanum yet? Or the Coppermind? There are tons of tidbits in both that will help you understand the background Cosmere mechanics. 

[bo.montier]

Just now, dendrophobe said:

Sure! Have you checked out Arcanum yet? Or the Coppermind? There are tons of tidbits in both that will help you understand the background Cosmere mechanics. 

Arcanum unbounded? I've read much of it, but by no means all.
I've read a lot on the Coppermind, but not in a systematic way. It's mostly been chasing down specifics. A lot of the concepts I've come across here didn't occur to me to even ask about.

[Blacksmithki]

@bo.montier

Well, if you ask a question on here, odds are someone online can answer it.

[dendrophobe]

Just now, bo.montier said:

Arcanum unbounded? I've read much of it, but by no means all.
I've read a lot on the Coppermind, but not in a systematic way. It's mostly been chasing down specifics. A lot of the concepts I've come across here didn't occur to me to even ask about.

Oh, not Arcanum Unbounded (although read that too!) I mean Arcanum, the new WoB (Word of Brandon) depository! wob.coppermind.net. It's brand new, but pretty awesome, and full of huge amounts of information. Brandon answers questions at signings and whatnot, and people record and report so that we can get more knowledge. It's a huge rabbit hole though, so be warned! You can lose yourself for days going through WoBs

[bo.montier]

4 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

Oh, not Arcanum Unbounded (although read that too!) I mean Arcanum, the new WoB (Word of Brandon) depository! wob.coppermind.net. It's brand new, but pretty awesome, and full of huge amounts of information. Brandon answers questions at signings and whatnot, and people record and report so that we can get more knowledge. It's a huge rabbit hole though, so be warned! You can lose yourself for days going through WoBs

No, I have not...Cool, I'll head there.

[Subvisual Haze]

The sapphire gem seemed important.  Sapphire is the color associated with Jezrien and the Windrunners.  Was the divine portion of his essence imprisoned somehow?

[hoser]

1 hour ago, dendrophobe said:

Absolutely not. Hemalurgy can be used anywhere in the Cosmere. In fact, this is part of what makes it so dangerous, and relevant to the Cosmere at large. Khriss is very interested in its potential, and that's not because it's bound to Scadrial.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/113/#e2622

You can even use hemalurgy to steal a Shardblade from someone. The living kind would be harder, because there's free will involved with the spren, but you could steal a dead one.

Yeah.  This seems amazing.  Assuming Rayse was involved in making the dagger and it is a spike, then his intent could affect what was acquired.  Was it some of Jezrien's abilities or participation in the Oathpact?   What if Dalinar got spiked into the Oathpact, for example?

[Jofwu]

It feels like an assumption to me that Jezrien is DEAD. Ash said that he was, but I felt it was implying that at least part of him was captured in the sapphire, no?

[Blightsong]

For Hemalurgy to work the person spiking has to have Intent to use Hemalurgy, and it didnt seem like Moash was conciously trying to spike Jezrien, so i really doubt this is Hemalurgy.

[Necessary Eagle]

15 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

For Hemalurgy to work the person spiking has to have Intent to use Hemalurgy, and it didnt seem like Moash was conciously trying to spike Jezrien, so i really doubt this is Hemalurgy.

Plus, the victim has to be spiked in just the right place. It didn't seem to me that Moash was aiming for a specific place.

[taxilian]

19 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

For Hemalurgy to work the person spiking has to have Intent to use Hemalurgy, and it didnt seem like Moash was conciously trying to spike Jezrien, so i really doubt this is Hemalurgy.

That can't be totally true, because when Spook got spiked and gained Pewter the person stabbing him was certainly not intending to do that.  Now, *Ruin* may have been providing the intent in that case, and that could be why it worked in that case... but there are other things to consider:

• Odium could be providing the intent in this case
• Moash could know more than is implied -- he might know what he's doing
• Moash could also have known exactly where to stab him. We don't know if he just happened to stab him in the stomach or if it was by Intent

So I still think it's plausible.

[hoser]

20 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

For Hemalurgy to work the person spiking has to have Intent to use Hemalurgy, and it didnt seem like Moash was conciously trying to spike Jezrien, so i really doubt this is Hemalurgy.

Not that easy.  Intent doesn't have to be in the spiker.  If the spiker is influenced by another, and the other has an intent ...

Consider the first two quotes here.

[17th Splinter]

3 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

 

Vasher and Azure can both change their appearence with awakening and divine breath and also, Vasher not dying is a pretty good sign he can use stormlight for breath (yes IK there is a WoB on this i don't know where to find it)

Isn't Azure Viviena? She has the Royal locks which could be why her hair was changing colors.

[Blacksmithki]

4 minutes ago, 17th Splinter said:

Isn't Azure Viviena? She has the Royal locks which could be why her hair was changing colors.

Yes, but the Royal locks are related to the returned and divine breath, it's because of their returned ancestor.

Also, according to Vasher she can probably change her appearence like he can.

For why i used Azure not Viviena, i wasn't certain if he caught that or not, so it would be confusing to use Viviena with almost no downside to using Azure.

[Droughtbringer]

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

The sapphire trailed dark smoke after killing Jezrien. What could that mean? Trailing dark smoke? What else in the cosmere trails dark smoke? It couldn't be a Hemalurgic spike, could it?

Dark smoke is form corrupted Investiture, at least with Nightblood, so this could be Corrupted Investiture, in a different sense.
 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250-warbreaker-annotations/#e7374

[Droughtbringer]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:51 AM, Pattern said:

Thank you, Arcanum, for the WoB.

Looks like Adhesion is indeed a misnomer.

Also, in the list of the surges it states:
Adhesion: The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum

Edited November 17, 2017 by DroughtBringer

[WhiteLeeopard]

@Chaos Do you think it might be possible to merge these two threads? Its getting a tiny bit chaotic, but I don't know if they count as separate enough topics to remain appart ^^.

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

3 hours ago, jofwu said:

It feels like an assumption to me that Jezrien is DEAD. Ash said that he was, but I felt it was implying that at least part of him was captured in the sapphire, no?

I thought that at first. But then I saw two good possibilities for the sapphire shining.

1. The sapphire absorbed his life investure and his soul moved on

2. The sapphire took his piece of Honor

But its true my first thought was that Jezrien was just trapped like a spren in a gem.

[KidWayne]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 11:51 AM, Pattern said:

I agree with those of you who think the Oathpact as being obsolete. A new solution should be found in the future. To stop the Fused from returning from the dead, it might be enough to kill one or more Heralds in the conventional way (not using the Odiumblade Moash used to kill Jezrien). I see a hunt for Heralds coming, Moash wanting to kill them for good while others want to send them back to Braize...

So this is the problem: The Fused and the Heralds both get sent to Braize upon their death, but without a willing/compliant Herald in place to prevent the Fused from returning killing them does not matter.

So, we have to think bigger.

However, there are a few obstacles...

1. The humans have no right to Roshar; the planet is the ancestral home of the parshmen/singers.

2. The humans brought Odium to Roshar. So, not even abandoning the planet would set things right (that would require freeing the natives from Odium AND abandoning the planet).

3. Roshar has been home to humans for so long now that they have some claim to it as well.

4. The Lost Radiants already kind of tried to fix this problem by stealing the singers ability to think and therefore (they believed) that they could stop the conflict by taking away their free will (and their forms - if the parshmen can't transform, then the Fused can't possess them). Now that I think about it, that sounds a lot like what Odium is wanting everybody to do - surrender their free will to him via embracing their passion.

OK, well how to solve this puzzle? Dealing with obstacles 1 - 3 requires the humans to follow after Dalinar and "do better" and it requires the singers to follow after Shallan (find an identity, find happiness even after the pain inflicted on you by others). Done properly, this leads to repentance and forgiveness that allows the two races to co-exist on Roshar. Obstacle #4 has already been overcome (minus the identity part), but it's worth noting that such an effort is not a viable solution since the Everstorm would allow the Fused to keep coming back without a Herald in Damnation to stop them.

Options for dealing with the problem that remains....

A. Make peace and share the planet (abbr. as MPSP)

• Doesn't deal with Odium, the Unmade, and the Fused
• Otherwise a pretty good plan
• Can (and probably should) be combined with any of the plans listed below

B. Allow Odium to leave Roshar

• May or may not deal with the Unmade and the Fused
• Otherwise a pretty good plan... FOR ROSHAR
• Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

I think that this is going to be the general direction that the books take. I think that by the end of Book 5, Odium is free to bother Harmony & Scadrial via the Set and the red haze that Harmony shows to Wax.

If this isn't the means by which Brandon plans to free Odium, then the next couple of books are going to be pretty dark as Odium will likely gain his freedom by winning and that probably means killing all the characters we love.

C. Find some new and less violent way to bind Odium to Roshar

• Sounds great, but I have no idea how it would work... Dalinar ex machina?

D. Defeat Odium (i.e. end the current desolation) and hope for the best

• Pretty sure WoB says that this would allow a new desolation to begin pretty soon

E. Defeat Odium (i.e. end the current desolation) and shore up the tattered remains of the Oathpact with new heralds.

• I think the Everstorm makes this desolation different in that at least one Herald would need to stay in Damnation at all times to prevent the Fused from returning through the Everstorm.

F. Figure out how to splinter Odium

• Sounds great, but I have no idea how it would work
  • Distract Odium with the Diagram and let Cultivation get in a headshot?

[WhiteLeeopard]

43 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

A. Make peace and share the planet (abbr. as MPSP)

B. Allow Odium to leave Roshar

C. Find some new and less violent way to bind Odium to RosharD. Defeat Odium (i.e. end the current desolation) and hope for the best

E. Defeat Odium (i.e. end the current desolation) and shore up the tattered remains of the Oathpact with new heralds.

F. Figure out how to splinter Odium

A. Sounds good. Biggest challange will be getting singers away from Fused. Ultimately they likely will, after all whats the point of been free if they are still slaves to their ancestors? Talk about been mired in the past. Literally.

B. I'm not sure Odium would leave without Shattering Cultivation and possibly doing something else on Roshar. Dalinar asked him what he would do if he freed him. Odium basically said he would do some changes to the world before leaving. Even if Odium leaves they would still have to deal with the Fused and Everstorm, as investure doesn't just dissappear as soon as the Shard goes.

C. Erhm, unlikely slash impossible

D. Likely pointless

E. Likely semi-pointless

F. Yup

So, make peace with parsh that just want to live (Venli's task I guess) and splinter Odium. No biggie . 

Didn't always agree with you (if you think anything good can come of the Diagram you have a lot more faith than me) but it was a nice post.

Edited November 17, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard