Renarin is a woman

[Sasukerinnegan]

I'm getting highly suspicious that Renarin is.... actually... a woman. I admit the evidence is very flimsy...... but, my Voidbinding abilities and Peter's hints, seem to indicate that Renarin is almost certainly female.

 

"Thirty-eight days," Renarin read. "The end of all nations."

Renarin READ, you guys...... he (she?) actually read the writing on the wall.(pun intended) Also, more evidence is indicated from Peter's post.

 

They picked one where my comment was something like "HAHAHAHAHAHA NO." Actually that had to do with this.

 

Pretty sure they picked that quote just to screw with me.

Follow the link and it leads to a forum containing some pretty weird predictions........ but the only prediction regarding Renarin is the following

 

Renarin is not Dalinar's son or a boy. Renarin is actually Renarina, the crossdressing daughter of Sylphrena and Odium.

Well, i doubt Renarin is the daughter of Sylphrena and Odium. But couldn't he (she?) be a woman. In the context, it's not entirely impossible. Renarin is living in a highly patriarchal society AND is additionally epileptic and prone to fits. It's possible that Dalinar and Shshsh having realised that a girl's prospects in such a society, decided therefore to raise him (her?) as a boy.

Now comes the crux of my reasoning........ Why does Dalinar never refer to Renarin as a woman, even from his viewpoints????...... The answer is that Dalinar has FORGOTTEN entirely about it, as a result of the Nightwatcher's curse..... Now, you might ask, what about Adolin, then?...... I'll admit I have no good answer to that.

One thing in favour of Renarin being female is that it does have historical precedent, even in our own history. One Egyptian princess, i forget her name, is well known for pretending to be male and ruling Egypt as a king.

 

So, what do you think? Who's going to be the first one to launch the inevitable Kaladin x Renarin ships???

Edited February 12, 2014 by Sasukerinnegan

[The Count]

Renarin doesn't have to be female for Kaladin and Renarin to ship...

 

Just saying.

[Kaladin Kal]

@Sasukerinnegan
This is crazy, you pretty much convinced me . Now you sparked this I see Renarin reactions while Wit was mocking him(her) suspicious. Wit even says there were actually three sisters? knowing Wit I am not sure he is just teasing or  slips in a suggestion.

 

I am not taking it seriously now,you cant just base it on "Renarin READ".

 

 

 

Renarin is living in a highly patriarchal society AND is additionally epileptic and prone to fits. It's possible that Dalinar and Shshsh having realised that a girl's prospects in such a society, decided therefore to raise him (her?) as a boy.

 

if this was the case then why would he/she risk things further by learning how to read? Wouldn't be that suspicious. Well one can argue it was Shshsh who taught how to read but we dont have much facts build this thing up,but man you are brave

Edited February 12, 2014 by Kaladin Kal

[Sasukerinnegan]

@The Count: I certainly didn't mean Renarin had to be female for there to be Kaladin x Renarin ships......... Sorry if I gave off such a impression

@ Kaladin Kal: Thnxs man

[Natans]

Crazy. But Peter said that one thing in the book would be veryyy crazy,  so maybe you are correct =)

 

That would explain comments like that he had "delicate hands, slim arms" and that he always stayed behind his brother. In the most recent duel of Adolin Renarim acted like his was "mothering" his brother ( I know that this is very subjective, I'm just pointing tidbits)

 

Now just one thing who nobody noticed that Renarim are a girl if he stay at the side of his brother so much time at least Adolin would have noticed.

 

But take this upvote for you inovative idea, I never heard anyone proposing something like this in the forum =)

Edited February 12, 2014 by Natans

[The Count]

I was not having a go at you... I know you were not making any point about anything.

 

Sigh... I really should stop trying to be funny... I just end up embarrassing myself, apologies all round.

[WeiryWriter]

So, what do you think? Who's going to be the first one to launch the inevitable Kaladin x Renarin ships???

 

Sorry but that ship has already been sailing for quite some time.  Kogiopsis on tumblr is the main supporter/leader of Kalarin, which is the great rival to Shallarin, led by our own FeatherWriter.

 

As for Renarin being a woman?  I don't really think so, during the Waygate Foundation livestream some people were asking for a trans/intersex character and he said he didn't have the research/resources to write an accurate character (especially live on air) so I really doubt it.

[Natans]

Sorry but that ship has already been sailing for quite some time.  Kogiopsis on tumblr is the main supporter/leader of Kalarin, which is the great rival to Shallarin, led by our own FeatherWriter.

 

As for Renarin being a woman?  I don't really think so, during the Waygate Foundation livestream some people were asking for a trans/intersex character and he said he didn't have the research/resources to write an accurate character (especially live on air) so I really doubt it.

 

I think that don't mean that in his book would exist a person impersonating another gender.

And how dificult would be to mess around a bit with this trope.

 

If one person is trying to act like he are of different gender he wouldn't want be noticed, so if Renarim indeed are a woman Brandon did this in the right way because nobody noticed, even the readers =)

Edited February 12, 2014 by Natans

[Sasukerinnegan]

I've got more unreliable evidence to Renarin's feminity.

 

 The Nightwatcher doesn’t trick you or twist your words. You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. SOMETIMES RELATED, sometimes not.”

This could be the reason why no one,including Adolin, seems to think Renarin is female. Now we know that Dalinar's curse is to forget completely about his wife. Maybe Dalinar's boon is also something related to memory, albeit other people's memory (including his own, maybe?). It's possible that he asked for the Nightwatcher to make everyone forget that Renarin was a girl, so that he (she?) wouldn't have to face any discrimination on this basis.

[Macen]

I find this hilarious and awesome.
I would like to point out that Renarin read Glyphs, not words... Kaladin can read Glyphs too... IS KALADIN A GIRL TOO!? (sorry, I had to).

[+eveorjoy]

Actually Renarin's physical limitations would cause him more problems as a boy not a girl. Girls are expected to be physically weak, protected, and allowed to pursue the mind.

 

I agree Peter said there is something crazy in WoR, but I'm sure, whatever it is, it would make sense in the story. Considering all of Renarin's problems, he would actually better off hiding as a woman or joining the ardentia.

Edited February 12, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Dovie Andi Se Tovya Sagain]

Why does everyone seem to think that women are so oppressed in Roshar?  They are the brains of the civilization and are valued as such.  I dont have the exact quote, but it was said that a great officer in the army is really a husband/wife TEAM.  Being the scientists, philosophers, historians, and artists of an entire civilization, even a warrior one is not being oppressed, i mean, they even get to be clergy... 

[Natans]

Why does everyone seem to think that women are so oppressed in Roshar?  They are the brains of the civilization and are valued as such.  I dont have the exact quote, but it was said that a great officer in the army is really a husband/wife TEAM.  Being the scientists, philosophers, historians, and artists of an entire civilization, even a warrior one is not being oppressed, i mean, they even get to be clergy... 

 

Be human is desire what you can not have. For some are a position of prestige in society. To others are equal gender rights =)

 

Well the women have plenty of power, but they are limited in many ways, see Jasnah comment about freedom and mariage.

 

A woman can't fight, can't show her right hand, can't engage in martial activities, can't rule, can't trade, etc. If you can't do something that the other gender are allowed where the equal rights =)

[Aleksiel]

Be human is desire what you can not have. For some are a position of prestige in society. To others are equal gender rights =)

 

Well the women have plenty of power, but they are limited in many ways, see Jasnah comment about freedom and mariage.

 

A woman can't fight, can't show her right hand, can't engage in martial activities, can't rule, can't trade, etc. If you can't do something that the other gender are allowed where the equal rights =)

 

I honestly think it's much worse for men. They can chose between being soldiers, ardents or farmers pretty much. And surgeons as well, but I really don't understand how this can possibly work since men don't read. 

[Sirscott13]

Wow what a grand proposed theory! seriously caught my attention!

 

But I feel that there is just not enough to support it at this time, I do however predict there is something else about him/(maybe her) that Brandon has not clued us in on.

 

I hope for the sake of craziness Renarin is not a girl. I say this because I would like to see him become the next king. Not a warrior like the other man but a thoughtful and rightful heir to the thrown. I have always found him smart and tactical that would make him a better king than anything they've seen. Just the way he handled Wit (hoid) is enough speculation for me. 

[Sasukerinnegan]

I hope for the sake of craziness Renarin is not a girl. I say this because I would like to see him become the next king. Not a warrior like the other man but a thoughtful and rightful heir to the thrown. I have always found him smart and tactical that would make him a better king than anything they've seen. Just the way he handled Wit (hoid) is enough speculation for me. 

Why not both?? Like the Reshi "king" for instance!!!

[Crysanja]

haha just as a joke

Renarin is Dalinars wife, but Dalinar got cursed and sees her as a son.

everyone knows this and does not speak about it.

[Moogle]

haha just as a joke

Renarin is Dalinars wife, but Dalinar got cursed and sees her as a son.

everyone knows this and does not speak about it.

 

It all makes sense now!

[FeatherWriter]

Well then, not only a topic about Renarin, but one talking about gender issues as well? Hmm, this is one I'll be keeping a very close eye on.

 

So let's talk about Renarin and gender issues, shall we? (You put Renarin in the title of this topic. That's basically asking for an essay about me. I offer no apologies.)

 

First of all, let's get some language things straight. When we're talking to or about transgender or genderqueer people or characters, the most important thing is that we're using correct pronouns. If we're saying that Renarin is transgender, despite his biological status, then he is male. And we need to use his preferred pronouns. We've been given male pronouns for him, so that's what I'm going to use (for the most part.)

 

Now, if I'm reading this correctly, we're theorizing that Renarin is DFAB (Designated Female At Birth) but is either a transmale or a cisfemale pretending to be male, ALA Mulan. (Those are different things btw! Gender identity is different than gender expression!) If he is trans, we use masculine pronouns for him, as we would for any transgender person. If the second, we would use feminine pronouns for her because, despite the fact that she presents as male, she still identifies as female.

 

I'd push for defining which is which, because those are two VERY different situations, however I find that neither of them seem to be overtly tenable. If anything, I'd argue that if Renarin is transgender, the most likely situation would be that of a female DMAB person, pre-transition.

 

(I'm going to use male pronouns here for the sake of clarity, since this theory would be pre-transition Renarin and personal pronouns would still be masculine at this time. If someone who knows better knows whether or not this is correct, please correct me and I'll fix this!)

 

I've said it before and I've said it again: Renarin seems to be fascinated by the feminine arts. He's got a bent for scholarship and an analytical mind, he's constantly asking questions about fabrials and Dalinar comments that he would make an excellent engineer if he would only join the ardentia. In addition to this, we see a lack of aptitude for the masculine arts because of his blood weakness and probably because of his ASD. This is something that he's highly insecure about, and he feels he is not the son that his father deserves.

 

“I am not the first hero’s son to be born without any talent for warfare. The others all got along. So shall I.”

--WoK, Ch. 18

 

I... have trouble believing that a DFAB Renarin would believe himself to be masculine, when it is an area that he struggles with so much. I don't see why he would feel himself to be male to the point of transitioning publically. And I don't quite buy the idea that his condition would be more easily borne by being masculine. Obviously an older brother with a younger sister is not an uncommon or unfavorable situation, just look at Jasnah and Elhokar. I'd think that a brother and sister pair might be more favorable, for then you have each of them becoming proficient in the full spectrum of their respective arts. DFAB Renarin transitioning to male, in a world with such strict gender roles, consciously choosing to step into a set of strict roles of which he already feels inadequate. It just doesn't add up for me.

 

I've talked about how I would like to see Renarin (and Shallan) try to break down some of the Vorin gender roles, and pursue those arts to which they are most suited; Shallan as a Shardbearer, Renarin as an artifabrian, possibly. Renarin's obviously interested in the feminine arts, and I'd like to se a character arc in which he begins to pursue the areas where his talents lie, though I suspect that if he does so, he will feel incredibly guilty and insecure about this. He's already far from the ideal son, and now he is pushing himself further by looking into feminine pursuits? That would be a very difficult situation (and one that I think would be fascinating to read about). 

 

At this point I think it could be possible that Renarin could think: "What if I'm not supposed to be male at all? What if I was supposed to be a girl all along?" and then transition to female, though... I still think that's possibly a bit of a stretch. Writing about a transgender character's transition is a VERY sensitive topic, and would be difficult for a cisgendered author like Brandon to pull off without being offensive. I have a feeling it's a topic that Brandon would probably try to avoid.

 

...and that's my essay on the possibilities of trans!Renarin. I hope that this has been inoffensive, but I'm going to admit right now: I'm cis, and probably not qualified to talk about transgender issues with any kind of authority. I would apologize for the length but... you all knew this was coming, didn't you?

 

Finally, in regards to the Kalarin ship, not only is it a very strong and well-supported ship at the moment, but I have a feeling that most of its current shippers would be rather upset if it were to suddenly become a het ship. Most of them like the ship in great part because it uses interpretations of Kaladin and Renarin which make them queer. You don't want to upset the Kalarin shippers, like that, y'all. They will tear you apart. You have been warned.

[Gloom]

Right....anyways,

 

I'm more of a mind that both genders are repressed in Roshar. It's sort of like someone decided that in order to prevent one gender from being oppressed too much, they would repress both genders to a certain degree making them inferior to each other in different aspects of life. The best example of this, in my opinion, was the book seller in Kharbranth who, even should he have the ability to read, could not operate his business without the assistance of his wife due to the social stigma that would be attached to him had he done so. In large part it appears to have been successful in Vorin Roshar. Both genders are mutually dependent upon the other to achieve success. The only place this appears to break down is in the military camps where a males success is solely dependent on his skill at arms.

[hoser]

Renarin can't be female.  If she were, the public sight of her left hand would be too stimulating for all the men around .  

 

I think the gender divisions repress both genders, as Gloom says.  I think it weakens society as a whole as nobody is encouraged to see a unified perspective.  Even a successful male warrior cannot lead as well, as they are not encouraged to learn history nor able to communicate directly across time or distance.  A qualified female leader is unlikely to arise because of the traditions, only the males can lead fighters and they are deprived of vital experience. 

[Kadrok]

If I were on Roshar, I'd pursue the "feminine arts", but do it in a manly, badass way.

 

 

*Ahem* On topic: Fascinating theory, but I am inclined to agree with Featherwriter's arguments.

[FeatherWriter]

*takes a quick bow* Thank you, Kadrok. I tend to think about Renarin... probably a lot more than the average person and whenever any of you give me the opportunity to unleash them, I take full advantage of it. Stand back, o ye who mentions Renarin in the presence of Featherwriter, or be overwhelmed with words.

 

 

[Cromptj]

If Renarin is actually female, I could not see the benefits of him posing as a man. Dalinar already had a son so no other was needed to inherit his title and I could not see Dalinar allowing his daughter to pretend to be a boy. If Renarin is transgendered, Dalinar would have forced him to join the Ardentia a long time ago. This would conceal this adequately from everybody and also suit Renarin's interests.

[DocHoliday]

I'm getting highly suspicious that Renarin is.... actually... a woman. I admit the evidence is very flimsy...... but, my Voidbinding abilities and Peter's hints, seem to indicate that Renarin is almost certainly female.

Renarin READ, you guys...... he (she?) actually read the writing on the wall.(pun intended) Also, more evidence is indicated from Peter's post.

Follow the link and it leads to a forum containing some pretty weird predictions........ but the only prediction regarding Renarin is the following

Well, i doubt Renarin is the daughter of Sylphrena and Odium. But couldn't he (she?) be a woman. In the context, it's not entirely impossible. Renarin is living in a highly patriarchal society AND is additionally epileptic and prone to fits. It's possible that Dalinar and Shshsh having realised that a girl's prospects in such a society, decided therefore to raise him (her?) as a boy.

Now comes the crux of my reasoning........ Why does Dalinar never refer to Renarin as a woman, even from his viewpoints????...... The answer is that Dalinar has FORGOTTEN entirely about it, as a result of the Nightwatcher's curse..... Now, you might ask, what about Adolin, then?...... I'll admit I have no good answer to that.

One thing in favour of Renarin being female is that it does have historical precedent, even in our own history. One Egyptian princess, i forget her name, is well known for pretending to be male and ruling Egypt as a king.

 

So, what do you think? Who's going to be the first one to launch the inevitable Kaladin x Renarin ships???

Feather: " What have you done??"

Sasuke :"I. I.I.."

Feather: "Mufasa Renarin is dead male!"

Sasuke: "I'm sorry! It was an accident!"

Feather:" Run. Run away and never return."

 

I read the title and this was the first thing that came to mind