Jasnah's Shard/Spren Information

[Delightful]

I was wondering if we can trust what Jasnah knows to be true about shards etc.

Presumably, she's the mouthpiece for Brandon's big reveals about how the world works. But can she's still a character who's imperfect - can she be wrong?

 

First off I recognise I'm probably being paranoid here. But think about it. All the information about anything other than strict Vorin theology was tampered with in order to *make* it strict Vorin theology, including ancient texts etc. upon which Jasnah bases her research. She also has limited information sources in general, based on what she could find of, what others understood about Honor, Odium etc. and even withing those sources there's always the danger of incomplete writings, mistranslations etc.

Unless maybe her spren told her, if he even knows these things, because despite recognising the name Odium, Syl hasn't said much to do with the greater picture of the Shards on Roshar. There is that possibility though.

 

It's more just a hunch than anything, but I wonder if Brandon will lead us to think one thing in book 2, and then turn around in book 7 or so and say 'ha ha you were all wrong, Jasnah had the wrong information PLOT TWIST'.

 

I hope this makes some kind of sense. Basically, can we trust Jasnah? What do you think?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Delightful

[Kurkistan]

Well we know she's wrong about the "origins" of Honor and Cultivation. She essentially gets the chicken–egg problem wrong: Spren are divided into two types, so Jasnah thinks that the idea of Honor/Cultivation came from that separation. But we know that the Shards predated their associated Spren, of necessity, so if there is any causal relationship (and their likely is, given sprens' composition) then Jasnah has it going the wrong way.
 

“Good,” Jasnah said. “As do I. I suspect, personally, that these groupings of spren—emotion spren versus nature spren—are where the ideas of mankind’s primeval ‘gods’ came from. Honor, who became Vorinism’s Almighty, was created by men who wanted a representation of ideal human emotions as they saw in emotion spren. Cultivation, the god worshipped in the West, is a female deity that is an embodiment of nature and nature spren. The various Voidspren, with their unseen lord—whose name changes depending on which culture we’re speaking of—evoke an enemy or antagonist. The Stormfather, of course, is a strange offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking.…”

Massive tangent: I do love how Shallan is unconsciously warding against evil during this whole speech.

[hoser]

Yes! And to add irony to the blasphemy, it is a few paragraphs after she thinks:

Still, she did wish that sometimes Jasnah would just tell her answers rather than making her work so hard to find them.

[Entyti]

Well, I most certainly think Jasnah is wrong about the Cryptics being "liespren" (and yes, she discovered this from research, so I will also contend that her sources are wrong as well). Quite the contrary, I think they are more appropriately "truthspren."

 

Forgive me if this is an old hypothesis (this is a big site and I'm new here). Here's my evidence:

 

Syl and Kal discuss the nature of spren in WoK, and Syl says to the effect of "do windspren cause the wind, or are they attracted to it?" Later, when she reveals to Kaladin that she is honorspren, she brings up the same question, implying that it was Kaladin's sense of honor that attracted her to him.

 

Rewind to Shallan's two experiences in WoK's with the Cryptics; both times when they interact with her, they demand an admission of something that is true.

 

As to how she first got on their radar, it is unclear, as her past is still shrouded. Perhaps she uncovered a great truth when she killed her father.

 

Further indications: Jasnah's exposition on the nature of spren.

 

"Honor, who became Vorinism's Almighty, was created by men who wanted a representation of ideal human emotions as they saw in emotion spren."

 

As was indicated by Kurkistan above, she has the cart before the horse here. However, perhaps she's not completely off base. Honor probably does stand for the ideal human emotions. If that is the case, how does lying fit that picture. Truth, though. That would fit better.

 

I think Shallan is a largely misunderstood character. Her whole arc is wrapped up in lies, clearly viewable to the reader. Her mission is fraudulent, as she is trying to steal the soulcaster,. She lies about her family's current state. However, she does yearn to study under Jasnah. Her remarkable ability with taking Memories and recreating them is a way of seeing the truth. There is a lot of internal conflict within her to do the right thing. This is brought to conflict when Jasnah takes care of the brigands in Kharbranth.

 

I don't really see a conflict with Shallan's lying and secrecy with the fact that she attracted the Cryptics, if indeed I am right that they are actually truthspren. After all, they are not honestyspren. Seeking truth and being honest are two very different things. And sometimes great truths need to be kept secret.

 

 

Well that was a lot more rambly than I had intended.

[Chlehrma]

Honorspren are attracted to honor, windspren to wind, firespren to fire, etc. A liespren would be attracted to someone who lies, obscures, or hides the truth. The irony is that they grant power to the secret keeper who tells a truth. The name does not really fit what they do and that is likely why they dislike it and prefer to be called Cryptics.

Cryptics do not encourage lying. They encourage bringing secrets to light. They encourage illumination.

[lummi]

Sanderson said they were not called truthspren and laughed, so i think liespren is pretty correct

[Argent]

Presumably, she's the mouthpiece for Brandon's big reveals about how the world works. But can she's still a character who's imperfect - can she be wrong?

 

This has become one of Brandon's signature moves, actually - he likes doing it more than most other authors I've read. Ever since Mistborn I try to keep an open mind about everything authoritative figures in Brandon's writing say.

[Cayden]

I think the reason they prefer to be called cryptics is that though they are called liespren, they seek powerful truths. One of the meanings of "Cryptic" is having a hidden meaning.

 

Maybe they gain power from said truths, or horde them for their own benefit, but from what we've heard so far they are a very powerful group of spren, they are cunning and intelligent and very likely ruthless.

 

Whats the bet that Cryptics treat other spren the way Lighteyes treat Darkeyes. Maybe there is a reason Honorspren and Cryptics dont get along, and why Syl can sympathise with Kaladin so regarding his hatred of Lighteyes, afterall a small part of herself might correlate the same behavioural pattern with something her kind has experienced.

[Entyti]

Honorspren are attracted to honor, windspren to wind, firespren to fire, etc. A liespren would be attracted to someone who lies, obscures, or hides the truth. The irony is that they grant power to the secret keeper who tells a truth. The name does not really fit what they do and that is likely why they dislike it and prefer to be called Cryptics.

Cryptics do not encourage lying. They encourage bringing secrets to light. They encourage illumination.

 

Chlehrma, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. There is something very odd about the Cryptics. The fact that their interaction with Shallon  is empowering based on the truths she admits gives me immediate reservations on them being attracted to lies. I doubt they would be attracted to pathological or frivolous liars.

 

Sanderson said they were not called truthspren and laughed, so i think liespren is pretty correct

 

Yeah, I don't buy it. I will say that truthspren is probably too simple (and obviously not accurate, since as you said, WoB dismisses it), but liespren doesn't fit the bill either. Maybe a more complete name would be "hidden knowledgespren?" Doesn't really roll off the tongue, I'll admit, but it is more in line with what behaviors we've observed so far in the books.

 

I wonder what this all means regarding Elhokar?

 

Thanks for the feedback everybody... Sorry I hijacked this Jasnah thread

[Darkness]

Secretspren? No, they seem to react stronger to the revealing of a secret more than the secret itself. Discoveryspren? That would go well with how Shallan captured her bonded cryptic. She attracted all the creationspren as she was exploring the memory in her mind (cognitive link), when that creative act came to a climax, she crossed the threshold into discovery. Also, you could say that revealing secrets about oneself is an act of discovery… Shaky, but supported and possible.

[shadewolf]

Secretspren? No, they seem to react stronger to the revealing of a secret more than the secret itself. Discoveryspren? That would go well with how Shallan captured her bonded cryptic. She attracted all the creationspren as she was exploring the memory in her mind (cognitive link), when that creative act came to a climax, she crossed the threshold into discovery. Also, you could say that revealing secrets about oneself is an act of discovery… Shaky, but supported and possible.

 

I kinda of like intrigue-spren, they are involved with intrigue, where the lies are the playing cards and truth the gamble.

[marianmi]

I kinda of like intrigue-spren, they are involved with intrigue, where the lies are the playing cards and truth the gamble.

 

Yeah

But liespren is a good a name as any. I think they are attracted to the lies that we tell ourselves (not the lies that we tell others).

That kind of lies are signs of some big cracks in a person's soul (bigger than Kaladin's or Jasnah's emotional scars), so there can be a big "something else" that can be fit there

[askthepaperclip]

Come on guys, Jasnah calls them lie spren and you are still arguing for truthspren? Lol Lie spren makes so much sense. Note that they seem to be attracted to elhokar as well, who was at least lying about the assassination attempt, but I suspect more (recall that he had an intense looking meeting with darkness at one point...plus he is just generally shady)

[Moogle]

Come on guys, Jasnah calls them lie spren and you are still arguing for truthspren? Lol Lie spren makes so much sense. Note that they seem to be attracted to elhokar as well, who was at least lying about the assassination attempt, but I suspect more (recall that he had an intense looking meeting with darkness at one point...plus he is just generally shady)

 

Don't forget that he was talking to two Heralds.

 

Elhokar's got some secrets. I want to know them. I'd make a great liespren. (I think liespren is not quite correct, though. I think it's close; it's the act of keeping a secret that attracts the spren. Very fitting for a spren that grants the ability to conceal yourself with illusions.)

[Entyti]

Come on guys, Jasnah calls them lie spren and you are still arguing for truthspren? Lol Lie spren makes so much sense. Note that they seem to be attracted to elhokar as well, who was at least lying about the assassination attempt, but I suspect more (recall that he had an intense looking meeting with darkness at one point...plus he is just generally shady)

 

Well there are a couple of things wrong with taking Jasnah's word for it. First, as the topic has pointed out, she is wrong on other things (such as the origins of Honor and Cultivation coming from the spren). Second, there is the fact that the Cryptics take umbrage to the name (something that you wouldn't expect a spren to have an issue with). Third, there is the nature of their interaction with Shallan, which the root seems to be based on truth. 

 

Adding to that third point, during Shallan's second Shadesmar experience, they did not accept her true admission about Jasnah having a fake soulcaster. Her first bonding with them (not sure if that's the right term) was an admission that she was terrified, and her second bonding was an admission of what she did to her father. This lends credence to the idea that they are something like secretspren as Darkness posited. Secrets are generally a truth that is shrouded in lies, which would explain why there would be a misinterpretation.

[Swimmingly]

Chlehrma, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. There is something very odd about the Cryptics. The fact that their interaction with Shallon is empowering based on the truths she admits gives me immediate reservations on them being attracted to lies. I doubt they would be attracted to pathological or frivolous liars.

Yeah, I don't buy it. I will say that truthspren is probably too simple (and obviously not accurate, since as you said, WoB dismisses it), but liespren doesn't fit the bill either. Maybe a more complete name would be "hidden knowledgespren?" Doesn't really roll off the tongue, I'll admit, but it is more in line with what behaviors we've observed so far in the books.

I wonder what this all means regarding Elhokar?

Thanks for the feedback everybody... Sorry I hijacked this Jasnah thread

They are not attracted to frivolous liars - they are attracted to those whose lies hide important secrets. It's like the way that Forgeries are more powerful the less people know about them.

[DocHoliday]

They are not attracted to frivolous liars - they are attracted to those whose lies hide important secrets. It's like the way that Forgeries are more powerful the less people know about them.

But that implies the question, why is Elohkar seeing Cryptics? If he has a secret, what is it? That he isn't King? That his father is alive?

[marianmi]

But that implies the question, why is Elohkar seeing Cryptics? If he has a secret, what is it? That he isn't King? That his father is alive?

 

I don't think cryptics are attracted to people that lie to other people... I think they are attracted to people that live a lie, that lie to themselves. Still the question would remain... 

On the other hand, they might want to bond with him just because he is king... you know, the king of spren with the king of Alethela (ex KR-land).

[hoser]

This is completely wonderful speculation.  I would like to add another dimension.  I propose that the way the bond is formed with the cryptic is interesting.  It is partly a test, as I see it.  Telling an important personal truth is a test.  Being thrown into Shadesmar without information and having to survive is a test, seemingly harder for Jasnah than Shallan the first time. 

What attracts the spren is not necessarily the same.  Yes, they may need to be broken in some way, as the blurb suggests.  I think they also need to excel at the primary attribute of the order.  Kaladin was an exceptional leader who protected his men and random undersized, underaged boys.  Jasnah seems quite wise and has been working on careful.  Shallan is an amazingly accomplished creative artist who had some work to do on the honesty front.  Joining people of high status doesn't seem like it could hurt either. 

[The Count]

That is a great point hoser and I agree. Although I would propose that the decision to bond is still more complex than this.

 

It is clear now that spren are not the instinctually creatures we (or at least I) have assumed in the past. Their society and capabilities are much more developed that that.

 

I would propose that acting towards and striving for the ideal is necessary, as you say, but it is just one factor. We see from Wyndle, that the choice of Lift was from a desire to influence her from a young age, and that this was a major factor in 'The Ring's' choice.

 

I see no reason why some spren (cultivation spren especially) could not be making decisions that are politically motivated or from a desire to influence the most people or other factors.

 

So having a 'broken soul' and a desire in the person to work toward the ideals are enough to draw the spren's notice. But maybe they will choose someone with more influence over one with more expertise in their chosen ideal. This seems to fit the Cryptic's pattern quite well I think.

 

It is also important to remember that, whoever they choose cannot progress without living the ideal and 'discovering' the oaths. So there is already a limit on the power the surgebinders can achieve without excelling in the ideals.

Edited January 16, 2014 by The Count

[HydrogenAlpha]

After the Denth-incident I'm very suspicious of whatever a character claims to be the truth.

[Swimmingly]

That is a great point hoser and I agree. Although I would propose that the decision to bond is still more complex than this.

It is clear now that spren are not the instinctually creatures we (or at least I) have assumed in the past. Their society and capabilities are much more developed that that.

I would propose that acting towards and striving for the ideal is necessary, as you say, but it is just one factor. We see from Wyndle, that the choice of Lift was from a desire to influence her from a young age, and that this was a major factor in 'The Ring's' choice.

I see no reason why some spren (cultivation spren especially) could not be making decisions that are politically motivated or from a desire to influence the most people or other factors.

So having a 'broken soul' and a desire in the person to work toward the ideals are enough to draw the spren's notice. But maybe they will choose someone with more influence over one with more expertise in their chosen ideal. This seems to fit the Cryptic's pattern quite well I think.

It is also important to remember that, whoever they choose cannot progress without living the ideal and 'discovering' the oaths. So there is already a limit on the power the surgebinders can achieve without excelling in the ideals.

Perhaps the rift between honorspren andcryptics Revolves around how they choose their bonds: instinctually vs politically Edited January 16, 2014 by Swimmingly

[Darkness]

hee hee politicspren (Cryptics). I could see why Brandon would laugh at truthspren and Jasnah would say liespren

 

Edit: spelling

Edited January 16, 2014 by Darkness

[Swimmingly]

hee hee politicspren (Cryptics). I could see why Brandon would laugh at truthspren and Jasnah would say liespren

Edit: spelling

I wonder if El's paranoia and elaborate lies he uses to justify it are what attract Cryptics to him.

[Chlehrma]

I wonder if El's paranoia and elaborate lies he uses to justify it are what attract Cryptics to him.

Can we be absolutely certain he did not attract a different kind of spren? Seems that whatever spren is stalking Elkohar may also have been stalking Gaz.