Moogle Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Can we be absolutely certain he did not attract a different kind of spren? Seems that whatever spren is stalking Elkohar may also have been stalking Gaz. He speaks of things with lines/symbols for heads watching him in mirrors. (Paraphrased, sorry.) It's near-certain that Elhokar sees the same spren as Shallan.
Delightful Posted January 17, 2014 Author Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) I wonder if El's paranoia and elaborate lies he uses to justify it are what attract Cryptics to him. In that case couldn't you say Cryptics would be attracted to any person in power, aside from Dalinar? Sadeas lies to Dalinar constantly by pretending he'll support him etc. and then turns around and betrays him, and he obviously has his own justification about how it's for the best for Dalinar and for Alethkar. I imagine any of the Highprinces playing political games act basically the same. I'm thinking 'Cryptic' meaning to obscure the truth, rather than outright lie. Not sure if that changes the implications of anything though. Edited January 17, 2014 by Delightful
hoser he/him Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 In that case couldn't you say Cryptics would be attracted to any person in power, aside from Dalinar? Sadeas lies to Dalinar constantly by pretending he'll support him etc. and then turns around and betrays him, and he obviously has his own justification about how it's for the best for Dalinar and for Alethkar. I imagine any of the Highprinces playing political games act basically the same. I'm thinking 'Cryptic' meaning to obscure the truth, rather than outright lie. Not sure if that changes the implications of anything though. So Sadeas could get a spren? Ouch! To attract a mindless bonding spren, he would have to excel in a relevant attribute, I think. Otherwise, the spren on the cognitive realm might not want to be on both sides of the conflict.
Cromptj he/him Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 I doubt that Elhokar's spren is the same kind as Shallan's if only because I think Brandon would want to show us as wide a range of powers as possible.
11thorderknight Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 Just as Honorspren probably have different subclasses that cause different surgebinding orders, Cryptics might have different classes as well. My theory is that Elhokar is going to be order 8, because he sees his spren in mirrors, and the essence of the 8th order is Foil (something that reflects or deflects). 1
Delightful Posted January 17, 2014 Author Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) So Sadeas could get a spren? Ouch! My point was that I find it unlikely that lies is what attracts a spren. I mean, aren't KR's supposed to be all moral and honourable-protector-of-the-peace people, not liars? Just as Honorspren probably have different subclasses that cause different surgebinding orders, Cryptics might have different classes as well. Do we know honourspren have subclasses? I got the impression that honourspren were attracted to WindRunners, Crytpics to ....Lightweavers, is it?...so I presumed each order of Knights Radiant got their own spren - I have no proof for this beyond assumption though. Edited January 17, 2014 by Delightful
Chlehrma Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 Just as Honorspren probably have different subclasses that cause different surgebinding orders, Cryptics might have different classes as well. My theory is that Elhokar is going to be order 8, because he sees his spren in mirrors, and the essence of the 8th order is Foil (something that reflects or deflects). Good point.
Isomere Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 We have pretty good evidence there is more than one type of Honorspren, Brandon said even the spren themselves argue about who gets to be called Honorspren. I suspect it has to do with percent investiture from Honor vs Cultivation.
garlick Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) cryptic means haveing or seeming to have a hidden or ambigous meaning. If WoB called them crytpics why do they have to be called somethingpren. From every thing weve read about shallan, she has a cryptic past, the lies cover up the true. In a way they are drawn to her because of this the want to unravel the secrets. Its not the lie or the truth that attacts them in the sense only lying or the truth does, its the mystery behind it. Atleast thats my 2 cents. . I've just read the new chapters released. Jasnah has even said they name themselves crypics. Then goes on to to say lie spren is more accurate then truth spren. But i think this has to do with them wanting to uncover the lies attracted by the lie to uncover the truth. Still cryptics seem the best name for them and even after she calls them lie spren she goes back to calling them cryptics. Edited January 17, 2014 by garlick
Delightful Posted January 17, 2014 Author Posted January 17, 2014 We have pretty good evidence there is more than one type of Honorspren, Brandon said even the spren themselves argue about who gets to be called Honorspren. I suspect it has to do with percent investiture from Honor vs Cultivation. You're right, I forgot about that.
Bremen Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 We have pretty good evidence there is more than one type of Honorspren, Brandon said even the spren themselves argue about who gets to be called Honorspren. I suspect it has to do with percent investiture from Honor vs Cultivation. Thats not evidence that they're both honorspren, rather evidence that names are not intrinsic to the spren. If there were different types of honorspren you wouldn't need to argue over who is an honorspren, both can be honorspren. But if you have separate types of spren who both wish to be known as honorspen and prevent the other group(s) from using the title than you do have an argument, because not everyone can be honorspren. It's like Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox arguing over who is the true church. 1
askthepaperclip he/him Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Well there are a couple of things wrong with taking Jasnah's word for it. First, as the topic has pointed out, she is wrong on other things (such as the origins of Honor and Cultivation coming from the spren). Second, there is the fact that the Cryptics take umbrage to the name (something that you wouldn't expect a spren to have an issue with). Third, there is the nature of their interaction with Shallan, which the root seems to be based on truth. Jasnah says "we would probably name them lie spren." That fits perfectly with saying Syl is an honor spren, but we would probably name her a wind spren. I take this to mean that in general, many/most spren are not what we think. (Poor Axies!) Much like the KR were a construct built around the existing surge binding framework, Or push/pull/internal/external for allomancy was a construct by men to describe the existing system, I think our descriptions of spren are just that...OURS, not theirs. That doesn't make it wrong, it is just their name in our system, not their system. 2
shadewolf Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 He speaks of things with lines/symbols for heads watching him in mirrors. (Paraphrased, sorry.) It's near-certain that Elhokar sees the same spren as Shallan. You know something, did shallan ever actually see the Cryptics? I remember her seeing them through her drawings; and calling them up at the very end. If so how is Elhokar seeing the spren then?
Awesomeness Summoned he/him Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Well, Elhokar isn't actually "seeing" the cryptics either. He's seeing their reflection in a mirror. In both his and shallan's case, the spren are seen indirectly which is possibly the only way cryptic can be "seen" before they cross over. Being able to draw them as shallan does is probably an extraordinarily rare gift. I would expect mirrors are the most common way people would see them 1
Arook he/him Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 You could say Shallan's drawings are a reflection of the world just like a mirror. 1
Delightful Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 This is starting to sound a lot like a Harry Potter basilisk....
vikorr Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 I thought the reason the cryptics are called lie spren was very simple - Jasnah mentions it in pretty much the same breath as the Honorspren and Cryptics having a dispute. ...now, if you are an honorspren, and a cryptic tells you something...it's probably the full truth while being a complete and utter deception. Now to an honorspren, that's exactly the same thing as lying...hence Honorspren named the cryptics 'liespren'. To a cryptic, honorspren are probably odious and naive, who's opinions aren't worth a damnation. Hence the 'dispute' between them.
shadewolf Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 I thought the reason the cryptics are called lie spren was very simple - Jasnah mentions it in pretty much the same breath as the Honorspren and Cryptics having a dispute. ...now, if you are an honorspren, and a cryptic tells you something...it's probably the full truth while being a complete and utter deception. Now to an honorspren, that's exactly the same thing as lying...hence Honorspren named the cryptics 'liespren'. To a cryptic, honorspren are probably odious and naive, who's opinions aren't worth a damnation. Hence the 'dispute' between them. The old, lawful good vs neutral good dilemma. Honestly if it wasn't for the first Ideal, I'd say the Cryptics are true neutral in nature
Bremen Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 The old, lawful good vs neutral good dilemma. Honestly if it wasn't for the first Ideal, I'd say the Cryptics are true neutral in nature I don't think the spren need to share the ideals. Noladan laments that not all spren are as picky as honorspren. This tells us some spren perhaps do not choose the best people to wield power. I see it more as Noladan created the ideals somehow to bottleneck the power. If the spren bonds to an unworthy person they won't progress while those who are worthy have a path towards greater power.
shadewolf Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 I don't think the spren need to share the ideals. Noladan laments that not all spren are as picky as honorspren. This tells us some spren perhaps do not choose the best people to wield power. I see it more as Noladan created the ideals somehow to bottleneck the power. If the spren bonds to an unworthy person they won't progress while those who are worthy have a path towards greater power. True they don't have to share the ideals, and I honestly do feel like the Cryptics care more about whatever agend they have than saving people, that however is baseless on my part. Nodahan's creating the ideals to serve as a bottleneck, is a very interesting theory, I wonder how he set that up.
Bremen Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 True they don't have to share the ideals, and I honestly do feel like the Cryptics care more about whatever agend they have than saving people, that however is baseless on my part. Nodahan's creating the ideals to serve as a bottleneck, is a very interesting theory, I wonder how he set that up. By making an oathpact with the spren that was then broken during the recrease. It has a very nice symmetry with the heralds breaking the oathpact too.
Cromptj he/him Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 I thought the reason the cryptics are called lie spren was very simple - Jasnah mentions it in pretty much the same breath as the Honorspren and Cryptics having a dispute. ...now, if you are an honorspren, and a cryptic tells you something...it's probably the full truth while being a complete and utter deception. Now to an honorspren, that's exactly the same thing as lying...hence Honorspren named the cryptics 'liespren'. To a cryptic, honorspren are probably odious and naive, who's opinions aren't worth a damnation. Hence the 'dispute' between them. So should we call them AesSedaispren 3
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