Where are the extra Shardblades?

[Scott]

I started typing this out in the "Where are the Honorblades" post in Stormlight Archive discussion, but I realized that most of my points contained info from the WoR readings.  I've moved my post over here so we can stop hijacking the other thread

 

So... there have been a lot of arguments against where the Shardblades might be.  I don't think they're particularly valid.  Here are some of the posts, spoilered for space saving:

 

Again, I doubt either one of those is common. 

• If you have a Shardblade, you will most likely want to make this fact known to the world. The amount of prestige, power, and wealth even a single Blade can grant is incredible. Shallan's situation is, I think, unique in this regard. Generally, there is no need to hide your Blade, but there are many reasons to reveal it.
• Losing the Blade due to the harsh environment is slightly more plausible, but not much. Short of the ocean floor, all of Roshar is accessible to people with Shardblades, so a search party will find your corpse and Blade if you get lost somewhere in the wilderness. People keep close enough track of those things, so you can be sure somebody will come after them. Crem might be an issue, but at this point we are looking at several rare events, all happening to the larger fraction of all the Shardblades in existence. A few may have been lost to similar causes, but most of them? I don't believe it.
•  

I disagree that a large number of shard blades would be held by criminal/assassin types. It just doesn't seem likely to happen, as we know it is tough to get blade or plate without having some yourself. Most shard bearers are very well known nobles surrounded by other soldiers and guards to just mysteriously die and have their blade or plate stolen. And if an organization like the Ghostbloods currently had a large number, they could easily attack and overwhelm any foe and get the rest of the shardblades.  There wouldn't really be a need for secret plots, no one could oppose them.  I can see a small number being secretly held by a few individuals in unusual circumstances, but as has been stated by others, having shard blades and/or plate has too many advantages to keep it secret.

 

As further reinforcement Szeth mentions at one point he didn't have time to fully study who held what shards in the area on one of his missions.  I take that to mean it is fairly easily accessible knowledge that who owns what shard is kept track of by people. So people would notice if shards and plate randomly disappeared in probably the past couple of hundred years of Roshar's history.  I could see that some during the initial fighting after the Recreance being lost or hidden. etc.  Again that doesn't really explain why there are currently so few known blades and sets of plate.

 

 

I think we're discounting too many possibilities out of hand, citing the current situation of Roshar as it it had always been like this.  A lot of time has passed since the Recreance.  

 

First off, Dalinar says there are less than a hundred known blades on Roshar, and most of them seem to belong to kings, highprinces, or bodyguards.   That leaves at least another hundred blades unaccounted assuming that only the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoned their blades.  If the other Radiant Orders had similar numbers and abandoned blades as well, we're looking at about a thousand.  Either way, we have between 100 and 900 blades unaccounted for.  Either they're owned by people who don't advertise their existance, they're lost, or they're stored somewhere.  

 

I think we have evidence of both lost blades and plates, and of criminal or shadow elements owning them.

 

Here's my count of non-highprince/king/bodyguard Shardblades.  Conclusions are what I think based on the evidence:

 

Exhibit A:  The Parshendi

 

The Parshendi owned multiple sets of blade and plate at the start of the Vengeance Pact.  The Alethi have won several blades and plates in combat, and Eshonai states that they have a few left, so lets say we're looking at 6-12 blades and plates.

 

Where did they come from?

 

The Parshendi were "discovered" by the Alethi seven years prior to the Way of Kings.  When Galivar was killed, the Parshendi made no effort to take his plate/blade, and we haven't heard about any other Parshendi attempts to take shards.  They could have created the plates and blades, but they have a limited number and show no ability to make more, so I think this is unlikely.

 

The simplest explanation is that they found the blades and plates.  They could have found them in the wilderness, in the chasms in the Shattered Plains, in the buildings under the Shattered Plains, or anywhere else that they traveled prior to meeting the Alethi.

 

Conclusion:  Some blades were lost in remote but accessible locations.  

 

Exhibit B:  Lyss

 

Lyss is an assassin, and has a Shardblade.  We don't know how she got it.  I find it unlikely that this is a blade that exists in public knowledge since Jasnah says Lyss gouges out the eyes of her victims to hide her method of killing.  

 

Lyss doesn't seem to be a super special assassin, so I believe it is safe to assume that more people like her exist.  

 

Conclusion:  Some blades are in the hands of people who do not want publicity, power, or prestige.

 

Exhibit C: Darkness and the constables (steelhunt spoilers)

 

Darkness has a Shardblade.  At least one of his minions also has a blade.  I'm unsure if knowledge of these blades are in the public domain since Dalinar gives little detail as to who specifically owns the blades.  We don't see the viziers' reactions to the Shardblade since Lift was fleeting at the time, but they're far more concerned about the murder and regrowth of their new Prime than the Shardblades.  

 

Conclusion:  I think there's too little evidence to say if these blades are included in the count or not.  However, I think that the Heralds would want a weapon similar to the Honorblades they are used to fighting with.

 

Exhibit D: Shallan's Family

 

Shallan has a Shardblade.  

 

Shallan's shardblade is the product of her greatest sin, and she killed her father, so it is theorized that the Shardblade was held by her father.  Shallan's father was working with the Ghostbloods to make a bid to become a Highprince.  House Davar was a minor house at the time, on the verge of bankruptcy, and a minor house does not own a Shardblade without becoming more powerful, wealthy and prestigious.  

 

The Ghostbloods provided House Davar with a soulcaster, so it's not a stretch to presume they also provided a Shardblade.  

 

In addition, Amaram thinks that the Ghostbloods are behind the attempt on his life by a Shardbearer, who is theorized to be Shallan's eldest brother.

 

The Ghostbloods have therefore supplied a soulcaster, probably a shardblade, and possibly an additional full set of plate and blade to the Davar family.  That's 1-4 priceless artifacts gambled on a minor family's bid for Highprincedom.  I find it hard to believe that the Ghostbloods would take such a risk if they only had a few of these artifacts available.  

 

Conclusion:  The Ghostbloods have multiple blades, plates, and soulcasters, or access to them if needed

 

Verdict:

 

At most half of all Shardblades are held by known entities.  The rest must be somewhere.  There are several possibilities that have at least one example or strong suggestion:

 

In the hands of non-public figures (Lyss, confirmed)

Lost, some found by Parshendi (unconfirmed, supposition)

In the hands of organizations like the Ghostbloods (unconfirmed, highly suggested.  Soulcaster is confirmed)

In the hands of Heralds (confirmed if Darkness is Nalan; Darkness and his minions)

 

--------

 

What do you think?

Edited November 1, 2013 by Scott

[Two McMillion]

I think the above makes sense if you need to account for 100 shardblades, certainly. But personally I think all of the radiants abandoned their blades, meaning we must account for nearly a thousand. Your explanation seems much less likely for that number.

 

However, it's possible that a large number of blades could be hidden among the Shin. We don't know enough to say for sure at this point, but that could be a place for them.

[hoser]

The biggest question for me is: What did the radiants do with them?

 

Assuming we can believe the Recreance vision, that gives us 300 blades from 2 orders.  I believe there is now WoB that all the orders were armed, even though not all Knights were armed. 

 

What happened to the remaining blades and armor from the other orders?

 

The knights could have abandoned them in other places on the same day, but then we would have more blades to account for, so that doesn't help. 

 

The Knights could have easily seeded blades among other populations, including the Parshendi. 

[Theorymaker]

I think a lot of information about shardblades and shardplate was just lost after the Hierocracy.

[Shardlet]

I would expect that there are more assassins than just Lyss that have a blade (whether or not they use them on the job).  Consider,  "Ha, snuck right up on you and killed you dead. What's this?  Hello, you had a shardblade.  Finders keepers."

 

As to keeping an accounting of who has what blade and how many, just because people pay close attention now doesn't mean they always did.  A couple of thousand years ago the record keeping may not have been so precise.

[Gloom]

I'll agree with this to an extent. Eventually, even a stolen blade is likely to turn up again. Three or four generations down the line, someone is going to bring it back into play. There are so many ways you can justify having a blade that was taken during an assassination decades after it was lost.

[Two McMillion]

Do we know if blade can be destroyed?

[Fistsofrage]

"He must pick up the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" Chapter 53 "Dunny"

 

I think the tower (which I think is Urithiru and can only be accessed from the sky via windrunning/teleportation) will be entered first by Kaladin and I think it'll be decked out with shard plate and shard blades. And Kaladin will hand them out to the worthy ones and Sadeas will lose his mind in jealousy (hey, dreams can happen xD).

 

I also think Kaladin might finally learn/realize how to ride the storms during his fight with Szeth and will this will lead to him reaching Urithiru first and obtaining the crown and perhaps the heavily anticipated spear.

 

I know I did a lot of "thinking" in this post so if I'm reaching too far out there just let me know lol.

 

Edit: My only problem with this is that we all know what Kaladin thinks of crowns...and I wonder how much complaining he'll do before he finally accepts his destiny and wears it

Edited November 2, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Gloom]

The symbol of house Kholin is the tower and the crown if that makes any difference to you.

[Fistsofrage]

The symbol of house Kholin is the tower and the crown if that makes any difference to you.

Nope not really. Probably a symbol they've long since forgotten the meaning of. The spear mentioned is the clincher for me, it's definitely talking about Kaladin and the title he must pick up. A title that involves a tower, a crown, and a spear. And little dreamer me thinks Kaladin will rule Urithiru 

 

Edit: And to me, Kaladin wearing Dalinar's cloak with the symbol is just going to be a sign of trust and a sign that Kaladin has overcome the stigma of the past. I don't see Kaladin serving under anyone in the future, he's destined for great things.

 

I have the common disease of wanting all the best things for whoever I consider to be the MC so please forgive me

Edited November 2, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Shardlet]

I doubt it is forgotten.  The glyphpairs used as the highprince's standards are stylized versions of the glyphs they contain.  Also, the tower and the crown are pretty plainly represented in the Kholin glyphpair as seen at the beginning of each of Dalinar's chapters.  Note that at the start of each Kaladin chapter, you see a spear prominantly displayed.  The Tower, the Crown, and the Spear seems far more likely to me to represent Kaladin's alignment his Dalinar.

[Fistsofrage]

When I say the meaning behind the symbol is probably forgotten, I mean that just like how kholinar's relationship with the radiants has been forgotten, the meaning behind the symbols has probably been forgotten as well. And since Kaladin seems to be Jezrien's replacement, I can see him wearing a crown and ruling the tower/urithiru.

[Argent]

For what it's worth, I will remind you that even though Dalinar and Elhokar are both from House Kholin, they use different glyphpairs - or, rather, different stylized pictures for the same glyphs, khokh and linil. Dalinar uses a tower and a crown, while Elhokar replaces the tower with a sword (and keeps the crown). So the tower and crown from Dunny's last words (I keep wanting to call those deathchants, but that feels weird - what do we call them?), if related to House Kholin, link Kaladin to Dalinar specifically, not the entire House. Or, I should say, the fact that Dalinar uses those particular stylized glyphs is no indication of ancient lore buried in House Kholin's history.

[Fistsofrage]

Well I have no idea what following Dalinar has to do with picking up the forgotten title. I simply assumed that the tower, crown and spear were symbols of power associated with the title and that the title would belong to Kaladin.

I do not enjoy the thought of Kaladin working under Dalinar for too long. They are equals in my eyes, and Kaladin leads himself.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Gloom]

(I keep wanting to call those deathchants, but that feels weird - what do we call them?)

 

A cant (or cryptolect) is the jargon or argot of a group, often implying its use to exclude or mislead people outside the group.

 

So perhaps Deathcants?

 

I'll agree that a cant is slightly different in general, but the phrases are cryptic and confusing to those who hear them.

[WeiryWriter]

(I keep wanting to call those deathchants, but that feels weird - what do we call them?)

 

Usually we call them death rattles.

[marianmi]

I read that as:

the tower must pick up the fallen title => Dalinar becomes radiant

the crown must pick up the fallen title => Elhokar becomes radiant

the spear must pick up the fallen title => Kaladin becomes radiant

[Fistsofrage]

I read that as:

the tower must pick up the fallen title => Dalinar becomes radiant

the crown must pick up the fallen title => Elhokar becomes radiant

the spear must pick up the fallen title => Kaladin becomes radiant

"He" is singular. If it was describing 3 people, it would say "they".

[marianmi]

"He" is singular. If it was describing 3 people, it would say "they".

 

 

He * (Dalinar, Elhokar, Kaladin ) = pick up the falled title

 

or

 

He - refers to the person.

Tower, Crown, Spear - refers to the "position"

Each person from a position must pick up the fallen title.

Edited November 3, 2013 by marianmi

[Ethrien]

Chapter 53 "Dunny""He must pick up the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!"

 

The use of 'He' to represent three people seems unlikely to me, there are plenty of ways it could be reworded to be ambiguous about the number of people. As it is one person is taking up one title is my opinion. 'He' refers to Dalinar and 'title' refers to the Highprince of War. Dalinar (tower) is making a bid for the title which will only work if he has Elhokar's (Crown) support and Kaladin's (Spear) protection, the three of them are key in seeing the 'fallen title' taken up again.

[name_here]

I do not believe that is how English noun number functions. "He" is singular and cannot apply to multiple people except with collective identity shenanigans that no character has shown any evidence of so far. I guess you could have a reverse Royal We situation where the leader of a group signifies the group and so you refer to the group in the singular as opposed to the leader in the plural, but the Alethi don't seem to do that.

 

"The tower, the crown, and the spear" is a bit difficult to parse, since Dalinar uses the combined tower-and-crown symbol. Apparently the crown is the sigil of House Kholin and the tower is Dalinar's personal symbol, so Elhokar would be referred to as the sword. It could be a sign it refers to Kaladin becoming a Radiant, since under Dalinar he could potentially use a tower, crown, and spear symbol for his personal sigil.

[Fistsofrage]

Highprince of war is a fallen title?

[marianmi]

Highprince of war is a fallen title?

 

Lol, yes, it has stumbled and then fell into the pool.

Edited November 4, 2013 by marianmi

[Ethrien]

Haha, yes and needs Dalinar's help in giving it a good scrub down and wash off.

 

It's a 'fallen title' as in having fallen out of use among the Alethi since the last time they were united under one King a few hundred years ago.

 

Edit: In response to original topic.

 

If we assume that we are in fact missing 900 blades that leaves us with a lot to account for, far more than I'd be willing to attribute to those that have been lost to the wilderness by adventurous Shardbearers or have been hidden away by common people. In both of those cases the loss is likely temporary, the legend of lost Shards would draw treasure hunters for hundreds of years, and Shards in the hands of common people would eventually pass through inheritance to people looking for fortune and glory and as such rejoin the tally of Shards. The most likely solutions is that there are a large number of shards have been removed from the count by one or more organizations.

 

The Radiants

Regardless of whether they remained so after abandoning their Shards, the Knights in Dalinar's vision were still Surgebinders when they gave them up. It is a possibility that some abandoned their Shards were normal people couldn't reach, though the idea that the Stonewards and Windrunners being outliers in abandoning theirs at the foot of a human fort is a little odd. Its been suggested elsewhere on this forum that the Shards were the construction of a single Order the Bondsmiths, if so they may have also been one of the only groups with the knowledge to destroy blades, though again with the actions of the Stonewards/Windrunners its hard to think of the Radiants as actively trying to keep blades out of unworthy hands but its not an impossibility. 

 

The Heralds

Are probably the only group outside the Radiants with the knowledge to destroy Shardblades, and the ability to judge a thousand Shards as something to be removed rather than a power to be harnessed. That said those that are commonly suspected to be Heralds, Darkness, Baxil's Mistress, the drunk at the beggars feast hardly portray them as the sort to be working in secret for the good of humanity. Darkness could be argued to be working for the greater good, however a man trying to put out his own house fire isn't the best example of an altruist. All in all its possible a Herald has been collecting Shards to send floating down the Anduin into the ocean; but I wouldn't consider it that likely with the information we've been given so far.

 

Secret Societies

The Ghostbloods, the Envisagers, Shin Stone Shamans, whatever Restares calls his faction, the world of Roshar has no shortage of secret societies that might be interested in collecting Shards. The major issue with this idea is the restraint it would require of these secret societies. If these organizations could amass even a few dozen shards that would give them the power needed to take a small country; with a hundred shards and allies among existing highprinces the whole of Roshar would become a tempting prize. While not all secret societies may be collecting Shards or think of using them for conflict, what we've seen of war-torn Roshar implies they would be in the minority. For an aggressive group to collect a large number of Shards and not use them, implies they don't believe they will win, either because they think there to be other groups with similar Shard counts or they don't actually posses more than a handful of shards, which while still an incomparable fortune, wouldn't be sufficient for conquest without an army. 

 

Hmm I started writing this quite in favor of the ideas of Radiants abandoning blades beyond the grasp of mortals, Heralds dumping them by the wagon load into oceans and secret societies with more shards than some countries fighting wars of attrition for control of Roshar. Now I don't like any of them, I'll admit they're all possible and some quite likely but I can't get behind the scale required. Even all together, it doesn't seem enough, unless they can be destroyed or broken then someone has been collecting them without planing to use them, someone who is probably very aware of the coming Desolation.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ethrien

[The Count]

The biggest question for me is: What did the radiants do with them?

 

Assuming we can believe the Recreance vision, that gives us 300 blades from 2 orders.  I believe there is now WoB that all the orders were armed, even though not all Knights were armed.  

 

I think there is an even bigger question here:

 

The 300 left in the Recreance vision are 2 orders of the last generation of knights only. But we know that the Radiants existed for several hundred years at least, maybe more.

 

If we assume that there were say 1000 sets of shards (plate and blade) in the hands of the KR at the time of the Recreance vision.

 

If we assume that ther orders we in existance for 500 years, that is ~10 generations so we could be looking at 10,000 sets in total unaccounted for. 

 

Unless they were handed down (I think this very unlikely) or unless there is a way to destroy the plate and blades, that is a lot of shards unaccounted for.